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Gerrymandering by Computer

jefu writes "In the latest New Yorker there is an excellent article on redistricting and gerrymandering (more permanent URL). It discusses how recent gerrymandering is being done with the aid of computers. It also discusses how redistricting is polarizing voters and is making many seats in the House of Representatives 'safe seats' which effectively gives incumbents a permanent seat. It is not hard to see how this also tends to leave our 'elected' representatives in a position where voter input is less important to them than things like lobbying." Few articles about gerrymandering really get into how ugly and blatant it is.

86 of 526 comments (clear)

  1. Hmm by Evil+Adrian · · Score: 2, Informative

    Would have been nice to define a not-often-used word in the article so we all don't have to dig...

    To divide (a geographic area) into voting districts so as to give unfair advantage to one party in elections. (Link.)

    Give me my karma, baby.

    --
    evil adrian
    1. Re:Hmm by Zeinfeld · · Score: 5, Informative
      Would have been nice to define a not-often-used word in the article so we all don't have to dig...

      The term comes from an election (in Chicago?) where the mayor (Gerry) came up with a set of fixed boundaries, one of which was in the shape of a salamander (lizard). Hence gerymander.

      Any experienced pol will tall you that this type of trickery has a much bigger impact on an election than outright fixing of the polls. The way to cheat is by fixing the rules and by keeping opposing voters from the polls. During seggregation that is exactly how they stopped black people voting in Missisippi, any black man who dared to vote was liable to be lynched. The KKK and the police would man roadblocks to keep blacks from the polls and then there were the litteracy tests.

      One of the big impacts on the Florida outcome was the state law that prohibits someone who has ever been convicted of a fellony from ever voting. This is another holdover from seggragation, litteracy tests were struck down but not felony disenfranchisement even though the intent (and effect) was largely the same - disproportionately disenfranchise black voters.

      Click on my sig and you will see an article by a UK journalist who is one of the few who reported on this aspect of the Florida fix at the time the fix was in.

      The answer BTW is not to try to fix the system to make it harder to gerrymander, change the electoral system to Single Transferable Vote and multi-member constituencies. That way you also create a way for the minor parties to be represented. With the increasing corruption of the Republican party Democrats should seriously consider this even if only as a self-interested move.

      Regardless, there is a better way to get Tom DeLay and King George out of office. Get so many voters to the polls to vote against them that it does not matter how they try to rig the vote, they fail.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
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    2. Re:Hmm by Izmunuti · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I looked it up on the O.E.D., mainly to see how far back it goes. This is definitely not a new thing! There's a reference that's using the term the way we mean it from 1812.

      Excerpts from OED:
      "trans. To subject (a state, a constituency) to a gerrymander. Also transf., esp. in sense: To manipulate in order to gain an unfair advantage.

      1812 N.Y. Post 28 Dec. 3/1 They attempted also to Gerrymander the State for the choice of Representatives to Congress."

      No doubt that computers and demographics make it a lot more efficient.
    3. Re:Hmm by deanj · · Score: 2, Troll

      You know, the Democrats have been gerrymandering for YEARS now, and when the shoe is finally on the other foot, they're screaming like stuck pigs. Let them stew on that a while, and see how they like it.

      Maybe this will finally stop gerrymandering once and for all. Gerrymandering is evil. Just take the state, divide it up into a grid, and be done with it.

    4. Re:Hmm by Zeinfeld · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You know, the Democrats have been gerrymandering for YEARS now, and when the shoe is finally on the other foot, they're screaming like stuck pigs. Let them stew on that a while, and see how they like it.

      The problem is that DeLay has just opened up the game so that it is a continuous process. So instead of having the boundaries fixed at ten year intervals each party will commence redistricting as soon as they take over a statehouse.

      I don't think that the idea of fair elections should be a partisan one. If Republicans thought about what could happen when the boot is on the other foot they might realize this as well. With the house, senate decided by tiny majorities and the whitehouse decided on a minority of the popular vote and a lawsuit the GOP can hardly claim a strong hold on power. They could easily find that they have lost everything they now have in 12 months time.

      The problem has been with electoral tactics designed to shrink the electorate. Going negative as it is called. The idea of attack ads is not to get your people out to vote, its to keep the other side at home.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    5. Re:Hmm by Keebler71 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, if you read other less biased sources than this one, you will see there is an entirely different side to the Texas redistricting story. New district lines were not created after the last census due to partisan disagreements between the politacal parties in Texas. A judge arbitrated the existing boundaries. The Republicans claim that this is only a temporary solution, and that the next state legislature (the current one) would have the opportunity to try again. This is the point that will likely go before the Supreme Court, and IMHO has some grounds to it as the law is quite clear that the legislatures, not the courts, should preform the redistricting. Moreover, the Supreme Court has already ruled that gerrymandering is legal, provided that the states' districts in total reflect a politics of the state. I don't quite remember the numbers (read too lazy to look up) but the Texas legislature had PREVIOUSLY been gerrymandered to benefit the Democrats to the extreme that they now have a 3-4 congressional seat advantage, despite the fact that the state consistently votes overwhelmingly Republican.

      --
      "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
    6. Re:Hmm by Keebler71 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You miss out one little detail, the judge had thrown out the map previously because it flunked the civil rights issue. So much for your 'less biased sources'.

      Don't know what you are referring to here... the census redrawing or the more recent Republican redrawing?

      That is not the result of gerrymandering, it is the result of incumbency. Texas has been Democratic for decades

      So it is ok to gerrymander as long as it is done by Democrats? Did you ever consider that the Democrats was democratic for so long BECAUSE of gerrymandering? The state as a whole certainly does not reflect the current districting. This is fact, and the Supreme Court has previously ruled that this type of gerrymandering is illegal.

      --
      "It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
  2. A comprehensive discussion of gerrymandering... by tcopeland · · Score: 5, Informative

    ...including nice charts and graphs can be found here on FraudFactor.

    From the examples given in the FraudFactor article, both sides seem guilty of gerrymandering whenever possible.

    1. Re:A comprehensive discussion of gerrymandering... by pizzaman100 · · Score: 5, Informative

      One good way to minimize gerrymandering is to create compact districts. This is a requirement that districts be roughly uniform in shape (like a hexagon or circle). This doesn't prevent all gerrymandering, but makes it much more difficult. Typically gerrymandered districst are easy to spot, because they come in odd shapes.

    2. Re:A comprehensive discussion of gerrymandering... by jafac · · Score: 2, Insightful

      .....both sides seem guilty of gerrymandering whenever possible.

      . . . which, of course, does not make it okay.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  3. Independent electoral commission by Stephen · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's crazy that in the US politicians are involved in drawing district boundaries at all. In the UK, we have an independent electoral commission who are in charge of this.

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    1. Re:Independent electoral commission by squarooticus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What does "independent" mean, really?

      Are they "independent" like the NRA is to the RNC, or like the ACLU is to the DNC?

      The problem is that these commissions are made up of people who are inevitably partisan, so what you end up with is only the illusion of independence, when in fact the party with the most adherents on the commission effectively draws the district boundaries to the benefit of its members, while making it look all nice and non-partisan. Not good: I'd rather have the honest appearance of partisanship and public pressure resulting from bad press than a hidden agenda and no accountability masquerading as an "independent commission."

      In reality, there is no way to draw district boundaries in a "fair" way, because "fair" means different things to different people. The closest thing you can do is to permanently fix some method (algorithm) for drawing boundaries, which takes humans out of the loop forevermore; from that point forward, the rules of the game are at least known, so they don't change drastically every time a new party gets a 51% majority.

      --
      [ home ]
    2. Re:Independent electoral commission by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Thanks for missing the entire point, Captain Obvious. The whole question is how you divide up the people into 100,000 groups.

      Now why don't you climb back on the short bus on your way back to retard school (or just regular schools in Canada).

    3. Re:Independent electoral commission by Stephen · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The problem is that these commissions are made up of people who are inevitably partisan, so what you end up with is only the illusion of independence, when in fact the party with the most adherents on the commission effectively draws the district boundaries to the benefit of its members
      This is an argument I've heard before from Americans, but all I can say is, it's really not like that.

      Maybe it's that we don't assume that everyone is partisan. We have a long tradition of an independent civil service, which pretty much works most of the time. The members of the Electoral Commission are doing it as a career, they're not elected, or appointed by politicians. Keeping their jobs relies on them being non-partisan -- if they were elected or appointed they would have an incentive to be partisan.

      The Boundary Committee publishes draft proposals and consults widely before finalising them. Of course, political parties try and persuade it to draw the districts one way or another, but they seem to be immune to that sort of pressure. They base their decisions purely on which are the natural clumps into which the population falls.

      I don't hear people suggesting that the committee is biased. If this were widely believed, there would be an enormous scandal. The idea that there was any partisanship in the drawing of boundaries would in our eyes completely undermine the integrity of the election.

      By the way, here are their web pages: Electoral Commission, Boundary Committee

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    4. Re:Independent electoral commission by CarlDenny · · Score: 2, Informative

      According the the articale (gasp) it seems Iowa agrees with you, as that's what they're doing. Four of five seats were reasonably competitive last election, so it seems to have worked out.

      Hopefully the courts will end up mandating such commissions...and they can really maintain their independence. I think they'll probably stay mostly independent, but it'll take a few more court cases.

    5. Re:Independent electoral commission by mmcdouga · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is an argument I've heard before from Americans, but all I can say is, it's really not like that.

      Maybe it's that we don't assume that everyone is partisan.


      I'm from Canada (where we also have non-partisan electoral commissions) and I live in the US (where everything is partisan). In my experience both sides are right. In America people are born and bred thinking that everyone is partisan and everyone actually is partisan. In Canada, where people are born and bred thinking civil servants should be non-partisan, there are actually non-partisan civil servants.

      It seems like Canada and the US each have a system that's suited to their respective culture. I think it will take a change in culture for the US to adopt the Canadian system (or vice-versa).

    6. Re:Independent electoral commission by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 3, Informative
      In Canada, as in the UK, the lines are drawn based on population, not politics. Each candidate has 100,000 or thereabouts, people in their riding.

      How much more fair do you want?

      The number of people per district isn't the issue, it's the composition of each district. For example, even when all districts have exact equal populations, you can rig the process. You adjust the boundaries of the districts so that most of the districts have a mild majority of voters aligned with your party, and the rest have almost 100% opposition voters. If done right, you could end up with most of the seats even if fewer people actually vote for your party.

      Example with 4 districts and 20 voters: (xxxoo xxxoo xxxoo ooooo). The party with 45% of the vote gets 75% of the seats.

      One symptom of this process is an increasing fractal dimension of the districts (the ratio of district boundary to its area). You get this when a district is drawn with an amoeba-like shape to try to select for neighborhoods with certain pockets of voters.

    7. Re:Independent electoral commission by Jardine · · Score: 2, Informative

      Canadian voters are a lot less loyal to a particular party. The most recent election I voted in was a local election. In local elections, people don't run as a particular party. They all run as independants. The election before that was the Ontario election. This time the Liberal Party won the majority of the seats. The 2 previous elections before that, the PC Party won the majority of seats. The election before those, the NDP won the majority of seats.

    8. Re:Independent electoral commission by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Again, you totally miss the point. For example, lets say you have a heavily conservative part of the city with about 100,000 people that is surrounded by 5 several heavily liberal neighborhoods of about 80,000. Here are some options:
      -You can take the 100,000 conservatives, make a district that will almost surely elect a conservative representative, and make 4 "liberal" districts out of the rest of the city. Now you have 4 liberal seats and 1 conservative.
      -You can take 80,000 people from a liberal neigborhood and 20,000 from the conservative neigborhood and call that a district, and repeat 5x. There is no district with a conservative majority, so all 5 seats go liberal.
      -You can put 50,000 conservatives together with 50,000 liberals in 2 districts, and then the conservatives have a shot at winning 2 seats.

      So, when you are out looking for 100,000 breathing people, which 100,00 do you chose? Do you see why you are a retard yet?

  4. Death to Democracy by KD5YPT · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Here we have seen another step towards the death of democracy. Where those incumbents, who got elected by the people, no longer need to respond to people. Where the big money businesses can pay their way to get laws favorable to them pass. It will be the society of the rich people, for the rich people, by the rich people.

    --
    In US, you can easily buy enough major firearms to wipe out your neighbourhood but a few little fireworks are banned.
    1. Re:Death to Democracy by Carnildo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This sort of thing has been going on for at least a hundred and fifty years. The only thing "news" about it is that computers are being used to work out the districts, not working them out by hand. I don't see it doing any more to kill off democracy than it ever has.

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    2. Re:Death to Democracy by moosemoose · · Score: 2, Insightful
      due to gerrymandering there is a 98 retention rate for incumbants. virtually the only way to be removed as an incumbant is to become sexually involved with a (to be) murdered intern.

      but does it really matter? think about it for a second. if you could cast the deciding vote between democrat and republican in each and every local, state and federal election, is there a way that you could arrange your votes so as to effect a difference in your life? pathetic isn't it? if you are a white, middle class male you might as well not bother. you cannot change a damn thing with your vote even if you win! the sad fact is that there is little if any democracy remaining in this country for this and many other reasons (some of which i will highlight):

      1. virtually all laws passed by us or our legislatures are now subject to a serious (as opposed to not a chance in hell) constitutional challange. for all practical purposes the courts must approve all laws we pass (with the exception of laws increasing taxation which seem to be immune from constitutional challenge).

      2. what democratic power there is, has migrated from local governing bodies, where your vote had more weight, to national governing bodies where your vote doesn't even rise to the level of the proverbial drop in a pond.

      3. over the last 50 years the matters which we or our elected representatives are allowed to vote upon has been steadily diminished. on the state level for instance we are no longer allowed to vote on wheather or not an employer can require a high school diploma for a janitor's job.

      4. the media coupled with special interest groups now have a virtual veto power over progress. in a battle between those in favor of technological progress and those opposed, the ludites will always win.

      the net result is that democracy is one of the least effective methods of effecting change. more effective methods are:

      1. protest and civil disobedience (especially when it comes to preventing something from happening).

      2. press and media control.

      3. appointment of judges.

      the battle is over. the liberals have won.

      --
      the real evil is not what people think - its how people think
  5. The Perfect Government? by That's+Unpossible! · · Score: 4, Interesting

    To me, the first problem with our government is that it's too large. The second, which is directly related to the first, is that it's filled with too many politicians. Our government tries to do too much, most of which it sucks at. These thoughts are the main reason I call myself a libertarian.

    As King Longshanks once said (in Braveheart at least), "The problem with Scotland... is that it's full of Scots!" The problem with U.S. politics is that it's filled with politicians.

    In the simplest way, how do we solve this problem (and thus issues with gerrymandering, lobbyists, the inability to elect anyone outside the two party system, etc.)? "Easy" ... just replace our representative democracy with a true democracy.

    But wait, I hear you say, that would be rule by "tyranny of the majority."

    Here is where my libertarian ideals come in to play. Of course this is all hypothetical, idealistic, unrealistic, and some might say, Unpossible... ahem.

    But what if we eliminated this looming threat of tyranny under this truly democratic system? How could this be done? Well think about where tyranny of the majority comes from primarily -- issues related to control of private citizens lives.

    Are you allowed to drink alcohol and smoke drugs? Look at porn? Own a weapon to protect your life and property? Practice atheism or a minority religion?

    These are examples of issues where the tyranny of the majority could have a negative effect. I think the central thing to all these issues is that they should not be controlled by the government in the first place. If we had an ammendment in the constitution that clarified the constitution, that the federal government shall not make laws that seek to control the behavior of a person not explicitly harming another person, then what is left for the tyranny of the majority to affect?

    Then when an issue comes up in front of our tiny, truly democratic government of the citizens of the United States, it's a referendum that we all vote equally on. If there are multiple choices, we use a smart voting style (approval, counting, etc), and not the insane methods used now to pick such unimportant things as our next President.

    This is just an idea that has been brewing in my head, can anyone see holes in it and offer constructive criticism?

    --
    Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
    1. Re:The Perfect Government? by crimethinker · · Score: 5, Insightful
      If we had an ammendment in the constitution that clarified the constitution, that the federal government shall not make laws that seek to control the behavior of a person not explicitly harming another person, then what is left for the tyranny of the majority to affect?

      Taxes.

      The unproductive majority will claim that the wealthier minority must pay for all the social programs. Social programs, are, of course, not in conflict with your proposed amendment, because they aren't trying to control anyone's behaviour (other than "donations" to those programs by the wealthy minority).

      Until the government restricts itself, or is restricted, to the specific powers granted it by We The People via the Constitution, we will always have a problem of tyranny - tyranny of the majority, tyranny of the lobbyists, or tyranny of one of the two major parties.

      -paul

      --
      Pistol caliber is like religion: everyone has their favourite, and theirs is the only right choice.
    2. Re:The Perfect Government? by That's+Unpossible! · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Taxes.

      Sorry, I didn't try to cover every aspect of the new government in my post. ;-) I was hoping the 'libertarian' aspect would convey my feelings that the government needs to be shrunk down immensely.

      As a libertarian I don't believe in the federal government collecting taxes for entitlement programs or 95% of what they currently spend taxes on. The government needs money to run the legal system, to jail violent offenders, to run the military capable of protecting our country.

      --
      Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
    3. Re:The Perfect Government? by LaCosaNostradamus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I wish I could be constructive in my criticism, but it appears that my resulting decisions involve destruction instead. Permit me to explain.

      Our alleged Republic has a pretty good Constitution already. It's too bad that no one cares to obey it. With blatant violations against many items in the Bill of Rights (speech, search&seizure, rights retained by States and people, etc.) that people wholeheartedly support since each violation supports their own tyrannical pet peeve, the rights and responsibilities of liberty implied in that Constitution have been nickel-and-dimed away into insignificance.

      This is similar to the current depraved state of the Congress, which has been destroyed by each voter thinking that although the Congress as a whole is terrible, that their own rep is wonderful.

      Amending a document whose moral authority is lost, won't fix this problem. Either the population spontaneously starts to re-assert the primacy of Founder thinking as expressed in the Constitution, or the entire system is violently overthrown. I'm betting on the latter, and as the years pass and more and more people wipe their asses with that beloved document, then the more and more I come to hope and plan that the revolution happens.

      After all, violently asserting that the Constitution is dead, would only be placing a marker above its gravesite, making it obvious that it is dead (at least in spirit). The Republic was long ago transformed into an Empire, and empires are not ruled by the force of law and culture, but by force of arms ... as Afghanis and Iraqis are finding out on a daily basis.

      You are correct in identifying that democracy is tyranny of the majority. You are wrong in desiring to let it loose. The prior Republic form of government gave men hope that this demon could be tamed, as well as the tyranny of the minority, autocracy. Men of good character desire neither.

      --
      [You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
    4. Re:The Perfect Government? by sprekken · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I wholeheartedly agree. I happened to land on C-SPAN while channel surfing in the early morning a few weeks ago when the British Parliament was having some kind of open debate where the representatives (?) all got to stand up and ask the Prime Minister some shockingly direct questions and demand answers. It was totally fucking amazing!

      I must say that Mr. Blair is very quick, and was able to respond to everything with answers and logic that was actually relevant to the question... we don't get a lot of that here in the US.

      The whole time I kept thinking "Shit, how come we don't have this in the US?!"

      It just seems to me looking in from the outside that your political system is one big tv show. Every bill we hear about is the Grady bill or the Patriot Act or some other catchy name. Every politician has some stupid sound byte on tv and then a talking head tells you what to think. I don't know it just seems so plastic compared to our system.

      Plastic is very descriptive of the soundbytes and fakeness of today's US politics. It seems that throughout history the nations that get too corrupt find some way to end up in a revolution, or are conquered, or something... I don't see that happening anytime soon here, but it is interesting to think about where this type of corrupt politics is taking our nation...

    5. Re:The Perfect Government? by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 2, Insightful
      ok, as a total outsider, I'll have a go at this.

      A large number of countries have proportional representation.
      • advantage: this sort of gerrymandering is totally impossible - the one (person/party) with the most votes wins.
      • disadvantage: if corrupt politicians have the support of their party, they are a long way up their party's list and are almost guaranteed reelection
      • side-effect: coalitions become normal. What you have to have is some cutoff where parties getting less than (say) 5% are out of luck, otherwise you get a mess like Israel where tiny parties in a coalition can blackmail the main parties.
      You say that the US constitution is 'pretty good'. I am not totally convinced on this one - it is over 200 years old and probably needs beefing up a bit. The problem is: who would do that 'beefing'. With the current political climate the way it is, leaving it the way it is is probably the safest option, otherwise the party in power will use that power to cement that power (this is normal - all parties/politicians want power, what defines a democracy is what lengths they are prepared to go to).

      One thing has to be said though, a country where this sort of gerrymandering is going on can not be said to be a democracy. It is a self-perpetuating ogliarchy. This would not matter much to the rest of the world if we were talking about Upper-Volta, but it is the most powerful country in the world that is trying to copy the Roman empire and that affects everyone.

      The article hopes that the supreme court will put it's foot down on this issue. Sorry - I will not be holding by breath. Rehnquist - in particular - and Thomas normally vote along party lines. Even if by some mischance, the Supreme Court stopped this, what would appear in it's place? Iowa shows that it can be done but who cares what Iowa does?
      --
      Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
  6. Ugly by ActionPlant · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I know I posted on something similar maybe a week ago. What's ugly is that it was already seeming like our representatives (in general) cared very little for our wishes (consider the recent secret spending bill) and more for their pocketbooks. Obviously we can't expect everyone to be a martyr, but this is getting rediculous. We're a democracy in name only. We vote for appearances. Less and less of what we say we want is really heard.

    Who, then, is really running the country? And how did they really get in office?

    No, serious, I want to know. Because I'm starting to think that my voice really DOESN'T matter.

    Damon,

    --
    http://actionPlant.com
    1. Re:Ugly by Evil+Adrian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, the problem with your logic is your misunderstanding of democracy. You believe that democracy means that elected officials are supposed to represent your opinion.

      That is not the case.

      The people you elect are elected to represent your best interests. To that effect, they may vote for things you (or the majority of people) don't like, but they are not there to represent your opinion, they're there to do what they think is best for the people they represent.

      If they were there to represent your opinions, then we wouldn't need representatives at all, and we'd have referendum votes all the time.

      --
      evil adrian
    2. Re:Ugly by GirTheRobot · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What you describe is a functional democracy...ours is becoming less and less so.

      How exactly is a redistricting policy that can effectively nullify my vote in my best interest? It say it isn't.

      Those in power want one thing...more power. The interests of the people are secondary.

    3. Re:Ugly by eriks · · Score: 2, Interesting

      democracy, from the Greek: demos, people; kratein, to rule

      Literally, Rule by the PEOPLE, not elected representatives at all. So technically, we don't have a democracy at all, but a REPUBLIC...

      In the Ancient Anthenian democracy, all CITIZENS had an actual SAY in making up the laws of the city-state: however, slaves, peasants, women and resident aliens were NOT citizens... anyway this body of citizens was not terribly large, so in fact, they could actually more-or-less MEET and discuss what they wanted for the rule of law, collectively, and by concensus, "rule themselves".

      Town Meetings are really the only vestage of this original democracy left in the US.

      Plato, in the 4th century BC suggested that the ideal number of citizens is 5040 adult males.

      Obviously, things are different in a country with 200+ million "citizens..." so the ancient model needs to be modernized, in some way.

      We still, IMO, don't have anything approaching an ideal system, however, given what technology we have available, we certianly could do better than a few hundred neo-aristocratic Congresspeople.

  7. In the UK by Space+cowboy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    there was a case a few years ago where Dame Shirley Porter was convicted of ~40 million pounds worth of gerrymandering in a votes for homes scandal. Of course she's actually paid very very little of it back (less than a few hundred thousand pounds, if I remember the Private Eye story correctly)...

    What goes around, comes around, unless you can pay enough money to the right people....

    Simon

    --
    Physicists get Hadrons!
  8. Re:Who is Gerry Mander? by lactose_incarnate · · Score: 4, Informative
    Word History: "An official statement of the returns of voters for senators give[s] twenty nine friends of peace, and eleven gerrymanders." So reported the May 12, 1813, edition of the Massachusetts Spy. A gerrymander sounds like a strange political beast, which it is, considered from a historical perspective. This beast was named by combining the word salamander, "a small lizardlike amphibian," with the last name of Elbridge Gerry, a former governor of Massachusettsa state noted for its varied, often colorful political fauna. Gerry (whose name, incidentally, was pronounced with a hard g, though gerrymander is now commonly pronounced with a soft g) was immortalized in this word because an election district created by members of his party in 1812 looked like a salamander. According to one version of gerrymander's coining, the shape of the district attracted the eye of the painter Gilbert Stuart, who noticed it on a map in a newspaper editor's office. Stuart decorated the outline of the district with a head, wings, and claws and then said to the editor, "That will do for a salamander!" "Gerrymander!" came the reply. The word is first recorded in April 1812 in reference to the creature or its caricature, but it soon came to mean not only "the action of shaping a district to gain political advantage" but also "any representative elected from such a district by that method." Within the same year gerrymander was also recorded as a verb.
    Source: The American Heritage(R) Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition Copyright (C) 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
  9. The fair vote initiative by _Sharp'r_ · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A buddy of mine came up with an initiative in CA to eliminate the bias in redistricting by using a set of easily-understood rules that could be set into law and would ensure a balanced outcome based on geography and population levels, not political benefits.

    You can find the details at Fair Vote 2k2.

    He's still working on getting it passed into law by the voters in CA. It's tough when it doesn't really benefit the party in power to change the system to make it fair.

    --
    The party of stupid and the party of evil get together and do something both stupid and evil, then call it bipartisan.
    1. Re:The fair vote initiative by clem.dickey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Lots of luck. Looks like it didn't make the ballot in 2K2. :-). Remember that Lani Guinier was denied a federal appointment for being a bit too innovative wrt electoral fairness. Not that the Democrats haven't pulled equally partisan shenanigans.

    2. Re:The fair vote initiative by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 2, Informative

      That is trivially easy to stop, any party which does not manage x% (x should be somewhere around 4-6) gets nothing. I am not sure what the rules are like in Italy, in Germany x=5. France has a different system.

      Germany has had stable government since the last war. After the mid 50's or so, there were 3 parties around. 2 big ones and a small one. The first real changes of government were when the small one changed sides which it did some time around 1970 and back again in 1981. Now there is another small party around which means the larger main party can more or less choose their partner. Works as designed.

      Italy traditionally had instable coalitions which had one main aim - keeping the communists out of government. After the Soviet Union fell, the communists finally formed a government for a while. I would not call Italy's political system a success, a system where the same party has a perpetual lease on power (the Christian Democrats, now defunct and having been replaced by Berlusconi's people) just breeds corruption. The CDs were in bed with Mafia-like organisations for years.

      --
      Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
  10. not all states have partisan redistricting by mz001b · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In Iowa, for example, voter party registrations are not allowed to be used in the redistricting, so it is non-partisian. Several states have initiatives to switch over to non-partisan redistricting.

    1. Re:not all states have partisan redistricting by Unordained · · Score: 2, Insightful

      that's not quite enough. a correlation can usually be found between other factors, such as income, ethnicity, or how close the area is to certain types of business ... and party registration.

      they don't need to know who you plan to vote for to draw lines to their benefit.

      the system itself, of using districts to 'bottleneck' the voting process causes this flaw. you could have a dozen areas, and overal a balanced voting population, and still wind up with a slight discrepency that puts more than 50% of the votes for A in one district, and have all the others be just below 50%. you'd wind up with 11/12 seats being B, and only 1 A. even though the population itself was evenly distributed, and the lines were almost perfectly "fair".

  11. Re:Who is Gerry Mander? by AEton · · Score: 2, Informative

    Elbridge Gerry, governor of Massachusetts from 1810-12, signed a law that blatantly redrew districts to give his party an advantage (think 90% in one district of the opposition, 55% of your own party in the other x districts -- if you work the math out, it's a safe way for the ruling party to increase its representation.) Here's the link and a picture of the "Gerry Mander" editorial cartoon which we still remember: http://www2.uiuc.edu/ro/observer/archive/vol11/iss ue5/gerry.html

    Doing this stuff by computer is -scary-. It means that it's no more than an afterthought for a lawmaker to manipulate the rules of the electoral system.

    At the same time, even "safe" incumbents have to do case work and at least occasionally vote the way their constituency wants; otherwise, the media will notice, the citizens will notice, and they'll get kicked out of office. We often underestimate the intelligence of the average voter.

    --
    We recently had heard in the office over one of the Yellow Machine that's made by Anthology Solutions.
  12. Nothing new by Hayzeus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Save for the fact that software is being used to help the process along. I find this less worrying than it appears -- ultimately the advantage gained by gerrymandering is slim and short term, since demographic change is inevitable, especially in a society as mobile as the US.

    1. Re:Nothing new by IntlHarvester · · Score: 2, Informative

      Generally, recent demographic change has made gerrymandering easier, not harder. There's a lot more income segregation in where people live than there used to be. That makes it easy to slice up suburban districts that include the 'right' kinds of voters.

      Also, in some cases the only way you could make a "fair" district is through gerrymandering. I live in a sensibly-shaped district, and my congresswoman generally wins with 90% of the vote.

      --
      Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
  13. Surprise... by rsborg · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Yet another move by politicians to make voting less meaningful. Is it any wonder why our voting percentages are so low compared to other democracies?

    How much longer until our vote is purely symbolic and has nothing left to do with reality?

    Although in the article, they mainly focus on Texas, it's pretty clear that the whole system is being gamed and gamed hardest by the Republicans.

    How's the job market in Europe these days, I wonder...

    --
    Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
  14. Career politicians. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I believe this is one of many, why political positions shouldn't be a career. One of the founding fathers felt that one should get elected, do what's needed during the term, then go back to what one was doing before. No making a career out of it.

  15. sweet merciful crap! by gid13 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    From the article: "He opposes abortion, fights for balanced budgets, and voted for the impeachment of President Clinton. His Web site features photographs of him carrying or firing guns. Through it all, though, Stenholm has remained a member of the Democratic Party"

    I wonder what you have to do to be conservative down there.

    Also this makes me think that gerrymandering isn't the only threat to democracy in the states. It seems Michael Moore's claim that the Democrats and the Republicans are the same isn't so far off.

  16. related reading by theMerovingian · · Score: 2, Interesting


    Check out the book "How to Lie with Maps", by Mark Monmonier.

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0226 534219/102-3562028-6208164?v=glance

    Why yes, I am a geographer...

    --
    "If you think you have things under control, you're not going fast enough." --Mario Andretti
  17. Gerrymandering not completely evil by lgeezer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The logical opposite of gerrymandering is automating the process to provide politically balanced districts, 50% left, 50% right. Leaving aside how "left" and "right" ought to be defined (and how "center" is accomodated), balanced districts would tend for shorttermism and inaction at the political level higher. If you don't expect to keep your job, you don't plan what you'll be doing after the next election.
    Solution? An independent commission. The nearer their decisions create equal political fury from both (all) sides, the higher the pay.

  18. It's too bad we can't just register republican... by mellon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...and get our licks in in the primary. Really, to me, what this article says is that political parties really have become obsolete bodies whose only purpose is to disenfranchise the voters, and that we voters should simply ignore parties and vote pragmatically.

    I don't register with a party affiliation because I find both parties so distasteful. I think it would be very wise for us independents to figure out for what party our district has been gerrymandered and register in that party, and if we run, run in that party.

    It would be cool if the supremes solved this by ruling that all voters have to be able to vote in all primaries.

  19. More frequent now by dachshund · · Score: 4, Insightful
    From the examples given in the FraudFactor article, both sides seem guilty of gerrymandering whenever possible.

    Not quite "whenever possible". At very least, redistricting has been historically confined to census cycles, by a sort of gentleman's agreement between the parties. The reason it's been in the news so much lately is a couple of Republican-controlled state legislatures (Texas, most notably) have escalated the process and begun redistricting more frequently.

    No doubt the Democrats will follow suit as soon as they can. But the fact remains: this is a chain of events that didn't need to be set in motion.

    1. Re:More frequent now by rjstanford · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Texas one is just pathetic. Huge tall, skinny ones to pair (for example) 20% of liberal Austin with 20% of conservative San Antonio (larger) - so hey, each slice of SA overwhelms the Austin piece. There's even at least one disconnected part, with a gap of several hundred miles to find a smaller Democratic group to "pair" with.

      I feel bad for the voting public - I mean, you're setting it up so that the individual voters in the paired, "liberal" cities have little to no representation. Ignoring the overall effect, what is this doing to those people's rights?

      --
      You're special forces then? That's great! I just love your olympics!
    2. Re:More frequent now by JayBlalock · · Score: 2, Insightful
      You know the REALLY sad thing? It wasn't even about Texas politics. It was about sending more Republicans to D.C.

      What staggered me was how many people bought the Republican line as to why the redistricting was necessary. It was so baldly, on-its-face unsupportable that the only explanation I can come up with is that no one believed they would lie in such an audacious manner.

      Their argument boiled down to: X percent (I think around 66%) of the population voted for Bush, a Republican. Yet there are more Democrats in the US Congress than Republican. Therefore the districts are obviously incorrect, Gerrymandered, and MUST be corrected immediately.

      How many things wrong with this statement can we find? And don't forget - in the STATE Congress, Republicans outnumber Democrats by a rather large margin.

      Yet a huge number of people bought it unquestioningly. (up to 50% at one point, IIRC) That's what terrifies me - that so few actually took the slightest moment to ponder a rationalization that simply had no relationship to reality at all. Either half of Texas truly knows *nothing* about Civics (that the Republican majority invalidated its own argument) or that they are simply willing to take ANY crap that comes out of their Representative's mouth without hesitation.

      Sigh.

      --
      Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
    3. Re:More frequent now by koreth · · Score: 2, Funny
      Either half of Texas truly knows *nothing* about Civics

      Of course they don't. Everyone knows Texans drive pickup trucks, not wimpy little Japanese passenger cars.

  20. Used for Evil...or Good? Depends on Perspective by cyranoVR · · Score: 2, Informative

    Ugly and blatant, perhaps. But many minority representatives (both State and Federal) would not have been / would not be elected without redistricting.

    All sorts of interesting articles and view points available via Google.

    Here is an interesting page with a lot of resources on the subject.

  21. Summary, Congress is aristocracy by Shivetya · · Score: 3, Insightful

    We have all known this for some time. Look at some of the people up there. The Senate represents party intrest only and the House is purely special interest.

    If it wasn't for the need of Republicans to get seats in the House and Senate minorities would have been totally marginalized by Democrats. The Democrats speak a very good game of inclusion but they are in effect the party of exclusion. Gingrich and his cronies understood that and used it to their advantage.

    The best solution to this would be to give each state X number of seats and then award those to the top X number of vote getters statewide. This would still protect the original intent of the framers of our Consititution and allow for more diverse people in office. It might finally allow a green or gasp, a libertarian, into the so called hallowed grounds.

    People bitch and moan all the time about Presidential abuses but convienently ignore what goes on in the Senate (requirement of super majorities to vote is not in the Constitution - it is the exact fear the framers had - a government trapped by a militant minorty). Neither side will give up that power and hence they sell us out when making deals.

    Whine about Electronic voting, Bush, and Diebold all you want. You really don't have a choice in who is elected to the House of Representatives... and apparently don't care.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  22. first derivative by Geno+Z+Heinlein · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Hmmm... maybe there should be a law that requires election districts to have the minimum possible perimeter. :-)

    1. Re:first derivative by Experiment+626 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hmmm... maybe there should be a law that requires election districts to have the minimum possible perimeter. :-)

      I've wondered about a similar approach myself. The absolute minimum perimeter division into N zones may not be the best approach since the maps couldn't take into account things like rivers and highways that might be convenient to separate zones, nor would it factor in population density. However, it seems that it would be possible to specify rules that would lead to non-Gerrymanderable zones. For instance:

      • Any member or group of members within (legislative body that does the districting) may propose a map.
      • To be a valid map, a proposal must divide the region into N districts.
      • To be a valid map, the most populous and least populous regions may not differ in population by more than X percent.
      • Of the valid map proposals put forth, the one with the least total perimeter for all districts will be selected.

      Of course I don't put it past politicians to screw up even something like this. They would probably wait till five minutes before the final selection and propose the most favorable map to themselves they could come up with that has 1 mile less perimeter than the map they stole from the other party the night before.

  23. NC 12th district by chiph · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you want to see ugly, take a look at the North Carolina 12th district. It's been re-drawn more times than I can remember, and been ruled illegal almost as many.

    The NC Libertarian Party offered to redraw the districts as a disinterested 3rd party to the process (theirs would have mostly followed county lines), but the Democrats & Republicans would have none of that, and so we have our snake-like boundaries. A better view is available in this pdf (area in gray).

    Chip H.

  24. State Constitutional amendments needed by wayward_son · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In Iowa, the State Constitution says that congressional districts can't cross county lines (unless more than one district can be formed from that county, although not an issue in Iowa)

    I believe something like this was discussed due to the controversy in Georgia. When the Democrats who controlled the legislature redrew the House districts, they drew them to give Democrats a blatantly unfair advantage. New districts were created that had a slight Democratic majority, while Republican incumbents ran against each other in extremely Republican districts. (Note: Georgia, like much of the South, tends to vote Democrat at a State level, Republican at a National level).

    50 State Constitutional amendments like this wouldn't prevent gerrymandering, but it would make it a lot more difficult.

  25. Gerrymandering is a tradition by mveloso · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The reason gerrymandering exists is simple: you need to split people up into relatively equal-numbered-sized chunks, so each representative represents a mostly equivalent number of people.

    Where those lines are drawn can be key to who gets elected.

    Let's use a simple example. If each representative represents 100 voters and you have 100 relatives that live in a 2-block square, the best district for you would be a shape specifying the exact size of that 2-block square where your relatives are. You can pretty much guarantee that all your relatives will vote for you, or at least most of your relatives won't vote for someone else. Thus you're a guaranteed winner.

    What's wrong with that? Are you not going to represent the will and desires of those 100 people?

    Any whining about gerrymandering is done by the people that lose out. In this case, it's the Democrats (usually) that are whining about gerrymandering, because they're starting to get voted out of office at the local level. In the past, the Republicans were whining about it because they were "drawn out" of the election process by the Dems.

    Really, it's just a game of tactical advantage played by people on all sides. Advantage today turns into disadvantages tomorrow. Whiners today turn into brutal gerrymanderers of tomorrow.

    That's how it is.

    And "independent" councils are nothing of the kind. Anyone involved in the political process is a political actor, and are by definition not independent. They live, work, and eat with everyone else...it's just that everyone agrees not to complain too loudly when the "independents" favor one part or another.

    1. Re:Gerrymandering is a tradition by wmspringer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unfortunately, a more accurate comparison would be that in an area to be divided into 3 districts, 102 people are your relatives and 198 are not. By placing 51 of your relatives into each of two districts, you get a 2-1 advantage in spite of being outnumbered nearly 2-1, which means that 1/3 of the people are not being represented.

    2. Re:Gerrymandering is a tradition by uptownguy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What's wrong with that?...

      Let me just throw out a quick observation. The fact that gerrymandering leads to "safe" districts means that more ideologically extreme candidates are viable -- a solidly democratic district is more likely to vote for an extreme liberal and a solidly republican district is more likely to vote for an extreme conservative. This leads to ideological gridlock -- We fill our legislatures with members less wiling to compromise on issues and the swings from left to right and back again grow sharper and sharper. Not really representative of the people's will. And not exactly a formula for long-term stability. THAT would be one potential objection. This really is a problem once you think about it.

      --


      I would have to say that explosives are the most abused technology in all of history.
  26. Ratio of area to perimiter by peacefinder · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It seems to me like gerrymandering could be cut to manageable proportions by mandating a few simple rules, enforced in order of priority:

    1) Districts must be contiguous.
    2) No party registration data may be used while assigning districts.
    3) Districts must encompass areas equivalent in population within 0.X%.
    4) Districts must have a ratio of perimeter to area of no more than Y.
    5) Redistricting may not move the geographical center of any district by more than Z miles per census cycle.

    We'd need to do a little study to find apprpriate values for X, Y, and Z, of course. But does it really need to be any harder than this? It is about fairness of representation... right?

    --
    With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
  27. Apportion by Algorithm, Not Partisan Whims by LaCosaNostradamus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Instead of letting the legislators have the power to district, which by some strange coincidence affects their (re-)electability, it would be nice to have districting done by a mathemetical grid of sufficiently small size laid over the state in question, and let a publicly-known algorithm functioning like a state (ha haa) machine and work its way across the grid map, apportioning areas. With sufficient trials, the program can run until it gets cohesive districts of roughly equal population. It's just computer time, so who cares about that?

    At least this forces the gerrymanderers to be smart enough to figure out how to exploit loopholes in the algorithm.

    --
    [You have a stable society when some nut guns down a schoolyard and the law doesn't change.]
  28. Re:Not so fast... by AsshatExtraordinaire · · Score: 2, Funny

    Well, if you were using a *real* text editor, you could just create a macro.

  29. Colorado by wmspringer · · Score: 2, Informative

    From the article:
    >While Texas was shifting its districts, the governing Republicans in Colorado did their own mid-cycle reapportionment, to solidify their hold
    >on the one House seat in the state that produced a close election in 2002. (Legal challenges to the new Texas and Colorado districts are
    >now pending.)

    Background for this: In 2002, there were 4 republican seats, 2 democratic seats, and 1 intensely competetive seat (the republican won by 121 votes) In 2003, in the last 3 days of the session, republicans pushed through a redistricting which would essentially have guaranteed that 5 seats will remain republican until the next redistricting. Challenges were immediately filed on both legal and constitutional grounds; the legal case (in federal court) has been on hold pending the outcome of the constitutional case.

    Before the Colorado Supreme Court, the democrats argued that the redistricting was unconstitutional; the republicans argued that not only did they have the right to redistrict, but AG Ken Salazar (the plantiff) didn't have the right to sue the state he works for. The court found 5-2 that the redistricting was unconstitutional and 7-0 that the AG has the duty to challenge laws he feels violate the Constitution.

    Because the ruling was based in the Colorado constitution, it may or may not affect rulings in other redistrictings.

  30. Remnants of the Monarchy by Hobbex · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I remember watching the 2000 presidential debacle with some amusement, and most interesting of all was the partisan nature of EVERY aspect. It seemed that representatives from both parties were needed not only for political comments, but for everything from counting votes to doing statistical analysis. In the end, even the supreme court decide along party lines.

    I mentioned how absurd this is to my father, who is a civil servant here (Sweden) and a historian. His answer was that the concept of a politically indepedent civil servant in Europe is actually a remnant of the monarchic roots: civil servants in European monarchies were traditionally loyal to the king, not to the houses of parlament. Even though the monarchy is reduced to a symbolic role (more so here than in the UK), the tradition of indepedence from the political process lives on.

    America simply does not have this background: everything in American government is fundamentally political, so the concept of an _independent_ electoral commission is impossible.

    1. Re:Remnants of the Monarchy by JK+Master-Slave · · Score: 2, Interesting

      civil servants in European monarchies were traditionally loyal to the king,

      Yes, and civil servants today, everywhere in the world, unless they're 'biased' in favor of one political party or the other, are beholden to the strong 'mother state' concept. They're DEFINITELY not going to support any anti-establishment political movement that seeks to roll back the power of the state (the avowed claim that many small-c conservatives espouse in the US).

  31. Yet another great reason for term limits. by supabeast! · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is another great reason we need term limits for Congress. Those people are supposed to be running the country-not rearranging voting districts to ensure that they'll get relected so they can be there to waste more time redistricting the next time around.

    Think about it-how many problems could be solved if elected officials were more concerned with getting work done instead of getting re-elected! Do you really think that Fritz Hollings would have spent so much time passing bills for Disney if he hadn't needed their bribes, er, campaign donations, to get re-elected? Would we actually have a budget that could be passed if politicians worried about re-election weren't stuffing it with more pork than the country can afford?

    Let's all stop wasting time fighting all of the problems caused by these corrupt scum, and just get laws passed to keep them from coming back!

    1. Re:Yet another great reason for term limits. by BCW2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The people of this country can limit any term they want during the first week of November in any even numbered year (1/3 of the senate, 100% of the house, state legislators and others). It's called voting. Since we are headed for less than 40% of the eligable people voting, the ones that vote get the say. The rest just whine. I guess if people want change they could get off their lazy asses on the one day their bitch really counts. If you don't vote, don't bitch because you gave up the right.

      All redistricting is done at the state level not the federal. It's the state legislature thats the problem.

      --
      Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
  32. Ok, Captain Retard, I will explain it then by Hamster+Lover · · Score: 3, Informative

    First, the commissions are made up of three people:

    A judge, chosen by the Chief Justice of each Province or Territory, who acts as chairperson and two civil servants chosen by the Speaker of the House. In practice, many commission members, aside from the chairpersons, have been university professors or non-elected officials of legislative assemblies. N.B. Sitting members of Parliament, the Provincial Legislatures or the Senate are not permitted by law to be members.

    Second, the commissions hold hearings that the public is entitled and encouraged to attend. There is a specific Parliamentary committee that forwards complaints and suggestions to the commissions, but the commission is under no obligation to consider them. The commssions are required to draw boundaries based upon population density, mainly, but other factors are considered.

    After forty years of an independent commission, a certain amount of trial and error and fine tuning has resulted in a process that is indeed independent and effective. I cannot recall a single instance where boundary disputes were referred to a court for resolution.

  33. Racial Gerrymandering by toddmr · · Score: 2, Informative

    An aspect that I haven't seen commented on here is Racial Gerrymandering. Even if you disallow using partisan information, you can achieve the same results if your state has a large percentage of African-American (AA) voters. And in the Southern states where the Voting Rights Act is in effect, there is somewhat of a loose requirement of not diluting AA vote strength. This will, in all instances, cause the creation of a number of majority AA districts, which always will elect a Democrat. And it makes the surrounding districts "bleached" or overwhelmingly white, which tend to elect GOP candidates. Assume that AA voters vote Democrat 90% of the time. And note that isn't a racial stereotype. Any political scientist or political professional will tell you that it's an historical fact for at least 20 years. Knowing that a census block is 90% AA, you can safely assume that the voters will go overwhelmingly Democratic. It is also notable that voters' tend to cluster by partisanship. In the city I live in, GOP voters live overwhelmingly in the suburbs and a few intown neighborhoods with high average home value and average income. White Dems cluster in certain other intown neighborhoods and near the large University in town. AA voters live predominantly on the southside. Without knowing partisan voting behavior, I can still draw GOP and DEM districts in my sleep. FWIW, I work in politics professionally and have been using computers for redistricting for 12 years.

    1. Re:Racial Gerrymandering by bobwoodard · · Score: 2, Interesting
      And in the Southern states where the Voting Rights Act is in effect, there is somewhat of a loose requirement of not diluting AA vote strength.

      Exactly! You have the Dems using those requirements (and the other socio-economic factors you mention) to insure an increase in the Dem headcount, plus you have the Repubs using that same logic to cluster their vote.

      Both sides should be happy right? 8-)

  34. Computer redistricting by DanMcS · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The sad thing is, it would really easy to get census data into a format where a couple easy rules would create good geographical regions. For instance:
    1) all districts must have X (X is state population/#districts) voters, +-5% (or some number, this rule actually already is used).
    2) Divide the state into 1 mile by 1 mile squares, each district consists of neighboring squares, and the total boundary between all the districts must be as short as possible while fulfilling 1.

    You'd probably end up with a bunch of basically square or circular districts.

    --
    Communication is only possible between equals
  35. Fixable, thought not easy by MBCook · · Score: 4, Interesting
    This can be fixed, but it's not going to be easy. First off I'd like to say that the Senate, with their 6 year terms, was designed to be longstanding; and the House was designed to be the body that would represent the popular opinion more due to shorter terms and more seats.

    Of course, that's now backwards and the Senate represents the country better thanks to these stupid redistricting plans. In the last general election, less than 30 of the 530 seats changed (IIRC), but no matter what the number was it was pathetic compared to the way it used to be. Many seats were unopposed. Districts since the last census have been drawn largly like this: the Democrats negotiated so that their candidates got strong "safe" districts with little to no opposition. In exchange, the Republicans got everything else, so congress won't change much untill after the 2010 census.

    OK, so how do we fix this? The answer is to take the political parties out of it. Somewhere (Iowa?) a amendment or some such was passed so that when redistricting, the commite can only look at city boundries, population, voter turn out, and other such things to try to make the districts fair, they were NOT allowed to take political party registration and such into account. The result? In the last election almost every seat in that state was well contested and so the citizens there had a good democratic election working for them, while those of us in most of the country basically get force fed some candidate (who may be great, but may be terrible). What we need is to pass laws like this all over the country, so that none of these shenanigans go on.

    As we all know the current process works REALLY well. Let's take Texas for example. In Texas, the Democrats didn't like the Republican redistricting (which from what I've heard was unfair, and I'm a Republican, FYI) so they FLED THE STATE just to keep it from getting passed. TWICE. If we fix this process, there would be nothing for them to complain about, because things would be fair (or at least many MANY times closer to fair than they are now).

    Please, let's pass some reform!

    --
    Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
  36. Elegant solution by fiannaFailMan · · Score: 4, Informative
    For presidential elections this isn't much use, but for congressional and state assembly elections it would be ideal and would help to negate some of the effects of gerrymanderring.

    Single Transferable Voting, aka Proportional Representation.

    This simulataneously removes the problem of voters voting against their consciences for fear of wasting their vote. In the PR system, no votes are wasted. It has been used in Ireland and other European countries for quite some time now, and the constitution is designed to allow for coalition governments. Just about all of the smaller parties have been players in coalition governments at one time or another.

    --
    Drill baby drill - on Mars
  37. Term Limits= Law of Unintended Consequence by Foamy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I was a supporter of term limits, in theory, until I moved to wonderfully wacky California. Here there are term limits for the State Legislature and guess what gets done. Nothing. Zilch. Nada.

    It seems that terms limits had the unintended consequence that instead of "getting work done" the pols simply became gridlocked. Now instead of compromise, we just get a big "Stuff it up your A**" by both sides.

    The issue is best highlighted by a couple of recent examples. Dems voted overwhelmingly for Drivers' Licenses for undocumented workers and repubs against. Arnold says he doesn't like the law and the Dems fold like a card house and repeal the law that was signed into law weeks earlier. On the other side, the Repubs were hell bent on "cutting the waste" to balance the budget and were appalled at the idea of floating a 10 billion dollar bond that would balance the budget on paper, but would end up costing billions more in future debt payments. Arnie boy comes to town and proposes an even larger bond sale, 15 BiLLION, and the repubs can't sign on fast enough, while the Dems are now unsure about passing such a huge debt on to future generations.

    Now the point of those two examples is that these term limited pols flip-flopped like fish outta water when it suited their interests. Someone worried about their reelection might have considered the ramifications of making their previous stance so blatantly transparent. With term limits, you just do or oppose whatever the hell you want because you know it's not your neck on the chopping block if you screw up.

  38. Have a go yourself by jmacgill · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Some of the earliest software in to perform the task of creating 'optimal' zoning was writen by my professor (Stan Openshaw) back in 1977 - the Automated Zoning Procedure (AZP). It allowed constraints such as minimum population, and objective functions such as equal population, compactness (ratio of area/perimeter) and homogeneity (based on census information).

    As a toy to demonstrate how badly you can change the outcome of an election, I wrote a toy demo a few years ago which still seems to be up and running - you can try it out here It only implements simple population-based measures, but it does get the point over.

    --
    Spell checker (c) creative spelling inc. (aka my dyslexic brain)
  39. One more argument for proportional representation by Gorimek · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In a system of proportional representation district size and shape does not affect the representation of the different parties. Each vote is mathematically worth exactly as much as any other.

    So the problem is solved by just not existing...

    Coming from such a country to the US, it's pretty bizarre how crappy and corrupt some of these things are done here.

  40. NOT more frequent, and Republicans didn't start it by Nova+Express · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "The reason it's been in the news so much lately is a couple of Republican-controlled state legislatures (Texas, most notably) have escalated the process and begun redistricting more frequently."
    This is a lie. Texas did not begin "redistricting more frequently." The Texas congressional Democrats blocked redistricting following the 2000 census, leading to court-ordered redistricting. However, the Texas Constitution specifies that redstricting must be done by congress. In calling a special session for the purpose of redistricting, Governor Perry and the legislature was following the Texas Constitution. To omit this fact is to commit manifest dishonesty for the sake of partisan politics.

    In that session, Republican did press their advantage to gerrymander Texas congressional districts, just as the Democrats had done every decade they were in charge of Texas. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, and to the victor goes the spoils. There are many things to dislike about gerrymandering, but the Supreme Court has ruled that it is prefectly legal and constitutional as long as its not done for the purpose of racial discrimination. Moreover, the new districts more accurately reflect the voting preferences of Texans as a whole.

    Moreover, since when does a slanted piece by an unabashed liberal partisan complaining about the political opposition actually qualify as "stuff that matters"? Oh wait, this is Slashdot, and anything vaguely tech-related that bashes Bush or Republicans gets listed...

    --
    Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)

    http://www.lawrenceperson.com/

  41. Re:It's too bad we can't just register republican. by mellon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Oh, the idea isn't intentional sabotage. It is, "if the only person who can win in this district is a republican, then I want a chance to choose which republican runs."

    The article in the New Yorker points out that in a district that's been gerrymandered, the party for whom that district has been gerrymandered always wins the election, so the real election is the primary, not the general election. So really only about 1/6 of the voters in the district actually choose, and they're the most polarized voters.

    So the point is, if your district has been gerrymandered, you should register as a member of the party for which the district has been gerrymandered, so that you get to be one of the 1/6th that vote. If everybody did this, the primary would be the general election, and the candidate would be accountable to the voters despite the gerrymandering.

  42. term limits = worst idea of all time by Scudsucker · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Term limits make politicians less responsive to people's needs, not more. They will make for more corruption and graft, not less. If a congressman is only going to be around for a couple of terms, whats going to stop him for selling you out for some corporation in exchange for kickbacks or the promise of a cushy job for a vote on key legislation? If a congressional politician can't make a career out of it, he'll constantly be looking for their next career. What's going to get him another career: pleasing voters or pleasing corporations who can actually give him a job after he's out of office?

    And term limits wont do a damn thing to fix the problem of gerrymandering. The reason all these seats are unchallenged is because there is a concentration of voters of one party or another in those districts. All term limits will do is you'll have different people holding these seats, but they'll still be of the same party, the partisanship will be just as bad and congressional representation will be just as out of touch with the actual population as it is now.

    Finally, term limits restrict your choice to vote for whomever you want to. Why would anyone want to limit their own right to vote, the bedrock of any democracy or republic?

  43. Re:Don't hold your breath by Shawn_Herles · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I live in New Zealand, although I'm an American citizen. The country is currently run by a party called Labour. Their the equivalent of the Democratic Party. The electoral system is MMP (mixed member proportional), a supposedly more "democratic" and proportional system. In reality it just means more polticians, and small parties being able to hold disproportionate power. Arguments over electoral boundaries occur hear as well, and I doubt if there is any way to avoid them, or to avoid partisan gerrymandering. Democracy - a system of counting heads regardless of their content. www.libertarianz.org.nz

  44. Why did they buy it? by Galvatron · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Because as you say, two thirds of Texas is conservative. People are always willing to believe whatever will get their party into power. This is why Gerrymandering works, it relies on the fact that democracy is a dictatorship of the majority. Gerrymandering is simply a way to ensure that slim majorities will remain in power, without having to make concessions to minorities.

    This is the same reason why support for the Florida recounts was almost precisely divided along party lines. It's hardly a coincidence that virtualy all Democrats believed that "hand recounts are the only way to be sure," while virtually all Republicans believed that "ballot tampering/theft and inconsistent counting of hanging/pregnant chads makes the hand recount actually less accurate, or at least more subjective, than the original machine tabulation." People believe what will get their canidates into power.

    --
    "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
  45. If it had gone the other way ... by mec · · Score: 2, Informative

    It has gone the other way in the past. In 1960, the Democratic margin of victory in Illinois was smaller than the amount of vote fraud that went on in Chicago. Nixon chose to concede the election rather than put the country through a constitutional crisis -- perhaps the only decent thing he ever did in his public career.

    You're right, though. The New York Times sponsored a post-election recount of the paper ballots (yay paper ballots). Theie study came out with the result that the NY Times didn't want to see, so they barely mentioned that their study had finished, and that, according to their count, Bush got more votes.

    A pox on both their houses.

  46. Not just DeLay by overunderunderdone · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The problem is that DeLay has just opened up the game so that it is a continuous process. So instead of having the boundaries fixed at ten year intervals each party will commence redistricting as soon as they take over a statehouse... If Republicans thought about what could happen when the boot is on the other foot they might realize this as well.

    I don't want to defend the practice of Gerrymandering, nor continuous redistricting BUT, this is definitely a case of "turnaround is fair play". The Republicans especcially in Texas have already had "the boot on the other foot" and this is payback time.

    The current districts are a clear cut case of gerrymandering. In this last election 57% of Texas voters voted to send a Republican to the House of Representatives but the Democrats got the majority of Texas seats (17 out of 32) in the house. The current Democratic gerrymander gives the Democrats 3-4 seats beyond what would be "fair" by the popular vote. In the early '90's when the current districts were first put in place the Democrats managed to capture 70% of the house seats with only 1/2 of the vote. Micheal Barrone the author of the "American Political Almanac" called it ""The most partisan redistricting in the '90 cycle in the nation" in the Almanac he called it "the shrewdest gerrymander". To keep the post on-topic the Democratic gerrymander was implementied using a computer program, yet strangely the New Yorker didn't find that as newsworthy at the time. Here is a relevent quote from a journalism students story (apparently the Dems screwing the Reps doesn't attract as much interest in the media) on using computers to gerrymander Texas:
    The Democrats accomplished packing by using a sophisticated computer program referred to as the Computer Curtain. The Computer Curtain successfully arranged the districts so that as many Republicans as possible fit into the least number of districts. The Republican Party found it impossible to win any sort of a majority. The effects of this process are still existent even as the new plan for 2002 comes into shape.
    A scrupulously fair redistricting would give the Republicans 3-4 additional seats. The Republicans to be fair are engaging in their own bit of gerrymandering to "unfairly" pick up an additional 2-3 extra seats to give them a total pick-up of 6-7.

    It's worth noting that those 2-3 extra seats aren't quite as aggressive as what the Democrats achieved throughout the 90's. In the 90's however, there was no comparable outcry from outraged defenders of representative democracy. Republican complaints didn't get any traction in the media. Most likely this is a case of the Republicans not playing the game as well as the Democrats - they fought the gerrymander but didn't go the the extra-ordinary lengths that the Dems did in this round. Perhaps they didn't think that the press would be as kind to them.
  47. Wrong. by overunderunderdone · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You miss out one little detail, the judge had thrown out the map previously because it flunked the civil rights issue. So much for your 'less biased sources'.

    No, where did you get that idea? The court created the current district map (essentially a continuation of the previous map) because the legislature was deadlocked and couldn't didn't come up with one. You really might consider finding less biased sources. I'd suggest looking at regional papers - they are occasionally biased but are less likely to get the story so wrong as partisan opinion journals or even national papers.

    That is not the result of gerrymandering, it is the result of incumbency. Texas has been Democratic for decades.

    Wrong again, In the 1990 redistricting the Democrats who still had the majority in the state house but were seeing the state as a whole trending Republican. So they gerrymandered the districts to give them 70% of the house seats with only 50% of the popular vote, and most recently The only incumbency that helped them was the imcumbent Democratic state legislators doing the redistricting (with the aid of a computer program, I might add). When the state was solidly (conservative) Democrat such aggressive gerrymandering wasn't necessary, they resorted to it as the populace became increasingly Republican.

    DeLay and cronies are upset that voters do not want to trade their existing democrats in for republicans to do his bidding.

    Actually the voters DID vote to trade democrats for republicans - as I said 57% of the vote went Republican. It's just that the majority sentiment was packed into a small number of overwhelmingly Republican districts while the minority sentiment was spread out the get relatively thin majorities among all the rest. The result, despite losing the congressional vote by a margin that would usually be considered a landslide (14% points down!) the Democrats got MORE of the seats (17 out of 32). That is a gerrymander no matter how you justify it.

    Given the corrupt way the bill was forced through - changing the rules to fit the deed there is no moral reason the courts should defer to the legislature on this one.

    Exactly what "rules" have been changed? The "rules" say that the STATE not the federal courts has the responsibility to draw electoral lines. If the courts invalidate such lines for some good cause (such as a deadlocked legislature that can't get it done on time) that does not change the RULE that it is the states responsibility. Lines drawn by courts have been redrawn by state legislatures on off years in the past (in California in 1984 for example). Court drawn lines have often changed *multiple* times over the course of a decade. It's hard to see how a body given only general oversight responsibilities (the federal courts) can have complete freedom to redraw districts as it will multiple times while the body EXPLICITY given that responsiblity has it completely taken out of their hands.

    The courts should only step in when something goes very clearly wrong. Even when it does when the proper constitutionally mandated body comes back and does it's job right the court should defer to that proper body rather than usurp responsibilities given to others.

    As far as I can see the only "rule" changed was the rule that Republican voters should be obligated to send Democratic politicians to Washington. I can understand why Democrats liked that "rule" but I don't think it should stand up in court.