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Computer Glitch Causes Havoc and Losses on Nasdaq

goombah99 writes "In an illustration of how fragile the electronic stock market system is the NY Times is reporting how a tiny computer glitch rippled through the Stock Markets with buyers who bought low and sold high taking huge losses. An erroneous large sell order was entered. Many people bought at this low price, then signed options contracts to sell these at higher prices, locking in a profit. Or so they thought utill the erroneous low sell order was removed. Now to honor their options they had to buy the stock at a higher price. Since exchanges trust each other's trade prices it rippled throughout the system. There does not seem to be any way to gracefully undo such errors."

94 of 324 comments (clear)

  1. Hmm.. by Wigfield · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What if some smart but malicious programmer rigged the system for his own profit? I know this example here is a glitch, but perhaps in the future...

    1. Re:Hmm.. by macdaddy357 · · Score: 4, Funny

      After the damage was done, the ticker read,
      "YoUvE bEEn HaxOreD fuXOrS
      Suckee it down!
      wOOt!"

      --
      How ya like dat?
    2. Re:Hmm.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative
      What if some smart but malicious programmer rigged the system for his own profit? I know this example here is a glitch, but perhaps in the future...

      I work for the company in question, and I assure you this is not the case. What basically happened is that the feature which would auto bail-out of a losing position which was in place for client X was discovered and used by client Y, who wasn't even supposed to know about it. Client Y added the setting to support autobail, but didn't include a lag time to send the orders.

      Thus, the order was sent thousands of times before the error was noticed.

      For it to have been malicious, the programmer would have had to have contact with the client in question, which is not the case. It was a multi-layered mistake, plain and simple.

    3. Re:Hmm.. by PleaseDontBeTaken · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You sound like you know what you are talking about, but it still doesn't make that much sense.

      Was the client long one million shares of the stock, and they went to send 1000 orders to trade out of the stock, all at the same time, rather than 1000 orders for 1000 shares each spaced two minutes apart (would take days).

      Or was the error that the client was only long 1000 shares, and then they autobailed their 1000 shares but the execution for some reason didn't feed back to their inventory, so it keep trying to sell the "same" 1000 shares over and over (and would have until the stock hit zero).

      If it was more the former, that would fit what you explained. If it was more the latter, that wouldn't explain why the sales never flattened their inventory and thereby (mathematically) stopped the autobail process.

      --
      --
    4. Re:Hmm.. by schon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the feature which would auto bail-out of a losing position which was in place for client X was discovered and used by client Y, who wasn't even supposed to know about it.

      Ahh, security through obscurity.

      I hope that appropriate action is taken against whoever decided that was the best way to prevent the feature from being used by an unauthorized party.

  2. Poor slobs. by Highlander · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I wonder how many people got fired because of it.

    H.

    1. Re:Poor slobs. by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Maybe a whole company. Archipelago now has a lot of explaining to do about their regulatory practices. The stock market system depends on self-regulation by the exchanges, and this newcomer got caught making a very questionable early decloration that things were all clear, while NASDAQ took longer but got made the right call. Archipelago then got reduced to copying off of NASDAQ's homework, and leaving some of its own customers holding the bag.

  3. One Dollar by wud · · Score: 5, Funny

    I bet we can make the two of them poor, while making the two of us rich.

    --
    wud
  4. Virus by instanto · · Score: 3, Funny

    I wonder how a Virus Attack (Specially Crafted) on Wall STreet would play out.. Could be interesting.

    (Or,maybe they run Norton SystemWorks... )

    --
    // instant - "I for one welcome our new Decaff Coffee-Flavoured-Coffee Overlords"
    1. Re:Virus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They (mostly) run OpenVMS. Good luck with the virus.

      Anonymous Ex-Deccie coward

  5. Interesting approach from Clancy by Chairboy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In a Tom Clancy book (Debt of Honor, I think), a computer programmer takes advantage of a weakness in the stock market to induce a crash. After a week of the market shut down, they recover by resetting the prices to where they were the day before the glitch and instructing stock brokers on steps to avoid re-creating the crash.

    It doesn't apply to this situation, but the specifics of how they do it is interesting for anyone who might want to check out the book.

    1. Re:Interesting approach from Clancy by KD5YPT · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes, its the Debt of Honor. But another thing that work in their advantage is that NO record was kept due to the glitch, therfore they could reset the entire stock market and basically declare all tradings done during those days were void.

      --
      In US, you can easily buy enough major firearms to wipe out your neighbourhood but a few little fireworks are banned.
    2. Re:Interesting approach from Clancy by proctorg76 · · Score: 2, Funny

      yeah, it was Debt of Honor. The same one that ended with a disgruntled japanese airline pilot taking out the State of the Union address with his jumbo. Seeing as how the relevance of this text to our modern times can be interpreted so much more easily than the bible can, I move to have it declared the new holy document and Clancy recognized as our lord and saivor.

      --
      Something distinct that people will remember better than my name
  6. let's just hope... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... that the glitch caused SCOX to fall even more :)

  7. its that pesky Y2.003K bug! by microcars · · Score: 3, Funny

    start stocking up on toilet paper and gold coins!

    --
    I like microcars
  8. Do over!!! by El+Cubano · · Score: 5, Funny

    Remeber being a kid and playing some game (like baseball or soccer)? What happened when someone really screwed up? or did something thinking they were allowed? You called "do over!!!"

    That is the solution. On Monday morning, all of the trading managers go out on the floor, and start off the day by yelling "do over!!!" Every trader's account is reset to its pre-Friday state, and everyone is happy. Duh, it's so simple.

  9. Open Sourced by Eberlin · · Score: 2

    Wonder if this is yet another argument to open sourcing critical projects so many more people can watch and debug it. I know, I know -- lots of vulns found on OSS lately, but I'd still rather trust systems where I can see the code if I needed to do so.

    While I'm at it, how many SCO stocks did it manage to fsck up?

    1. Re:Open Sourced by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even open source software is at risk to GIGO flaws. Garbage data in, garbage data out...

  10. undo errors..... by ejaw5 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Lisa: Wow, Dad, you're surfing like a pro!
    Homer: Oh, yeah! I'm betting on Jai-alai in the Cayman Islands, I invested in
    something called "News Corp"--
    Lisa: Dad, that's Fox!
    Homer: [shrieks] Undo! Undo! [hits key, sighs]

    --

    $cat /dev/random > Sig
    1. Re:undo errors..... by Luigi30 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Phone: Welcome to the Dial-a-Stock System. Please say the name of the company you want a stock price for.
      Homer: Animotion.
      Phone: Animotion... up 3/4.
      Homer: Yahoo!
      Phone: Yahoo... up 2.
      Homer: Huh? What is this crap?
      Phone: FOX Broadcasting... down 8.

      --
      503 Sig Unavailable

      The Signature could not be accessed. Please try again later or contact the administrator
  11. Trading has its risks by stomv · · Score: 5, Insightful

    and while the SEC and others do their best to proteect traders, mistakes do happen. This is part of the random process of the markets, and must be accounted for when making a trade, even on options markets.

    If you lost money, sorry. Unless the SEC/others can prove that somebody is liable for the initial mistaken order, you lose. Tough. Trading is risky, and sometimes the risks are completely unforseen.

    1. Re:Trading has its risks by wizrd_nml · · Score: 5, Insightful
      That's pure nonsense.

      The markets are meant for people to invest their money in businesses they feel will make a decent return for them. Investment risk consists of inherent risk of the industry, currency risk, political risk, etc. Nowhere in that equation is there EVER risk of a glitch in the computing system factored in.

      Mistakes happen because people are unethical, criminal, or just dumb managers. But mistakes should never ever happen because the system that you gave an order to buy or sell for you decided to have a glitch.

      Someone IS liable. NASDAQ is liable! NASDAQ is a company and it will be sued for the losses that it caused other people. It's as simple as that.

    2. Re:Trading has its risks by wizrd_nml · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Nasdaq can make all the rules it wants. But not all rules/disclaimers are legally binding. For example, you can't as a company say I'm going to sell you a car but I'm not liable if it doesn't run. Even if that rule was in the contract, a court wouldn't allow it.

      It would be interesting to see what happens next.

    3. Re:Trading has its risks by kayen_telva · · Score: 2, Informative

      poppycock to your nonsense !

      you think they didnt think of this ??

      Disclaimer
      Because of the possibility of human and mechanical error as well as other factors, NASD and its affiliates are not responsible for any errors in or omissions from the information contained in or accessed through this Site. All such information is provided "as is" without warranty of any kind. NASD and its affiliates make no representations and disclaim all express, implied and statutory warranties of any kind to the user and/or any third party, including any warranties of accuracy, timeliness, completeness, merchantability and fitness for any particular purpose. Unless due to willful tortious misconduct or gross negligence, NASD and its affiliates shall have no tort, contract or any other liability to user and/or any third party. NASD and its affiliates shall under no circumstance be liable to user and/or any third party for any lost profits or lost opportunity, indirect, special, consequential, incidental or punitive damages whatsoever, even if NASD has been advised of the possibility of such damages. Some U.S. states and foreign countries provide rights in addition to those above or do not allow the exclusion or limitation of implied warranties or liability for incidental or consequential damages. Therefore, the above limitations may not apply to you, or there may be state provisions which supersede the above. Any clause of this Disclaimer declared invalid by the appropriate authority shall be deemed severable and shall not affect the validity or enforceability of the remainder. The terms of this Disclaimer are governed by the laws of the State of New York and may only be amended in a writing signed by NASD.

    4. Re:Trading has its risks by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, Archipelago's the one to blame if you're gonna blame an exchange. Archipelago released the hold on the stock first, so most of the people who thought they were making an instant-profit by buying when it was low and selling minutes later turned out to be the instant losers. Archipelago's actions seemed to indicate the morning trades were going to stick. When the NASDAQ released their hold, they did so with a warning that anybody who had bought low in the morning should stand by because it was likely their trades were gonna be undone, and within the hour the NASDAQ followed through with the cancelations.

      So, sorry money hungry lawyers... you'll just have to settle for suing a .com-like stock market out of existance, NASDAQ's hands are clean...

    5. Re:Trading has its risks by fermion · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The markets are meant for people to invest their money in businesses they feel will make a decent return for them. Investment risk consists of inherent risk of the industry, currency risk, political risk, etc. Nowhere in that equation is there EVER risk of a glitch in the computing system factored in.

      The investor chooses the risk and the reaction to short term changes. The low risk, long term investor would not likely be affected by this mistake. Such investors seldom keep track of minute to minute prices. Such an investor might notice something funny happened the previous day, and check on the details, but when nothing was found go on with life.

      It the high risk trader that is going to be burned by this scenario. This trader has chosen the high risk levels, and should know the consequences. And, your fantasy world notwithstanding, information is sometimes wrong. (In fact this case is not about computers but information dispersal) Sometimes you lose money. Sometimes you can sue for damages. But these traders are big boys and girl. The smart ones double check information if it seems out of the ordinary (and wrong quotes come by more than you might believe, often direcly from the exchange). They do not run home to mommy and daddy complaining that a 5th grader sold his pubes for $10, and you now want your money back.

      --
      "She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
    6. Re:Trading has its risks by treat · · Score: 4, Informative
      I believe nasdaq has a set of rules for those who trade on it, and one of those rules I'm sure has to do with obvious mistakes.

      This is NASDAQ's "clearly erroneous" rule. I'm sure a Google search will turn up plenty. All serious players are aware of this rule.

      When you as an individual do trades, you do them with a brokerage, not with nasdaq, no matter how transparent it looks, and liability in that case depends on your contract with your broker.

      It's not their fault, and the contract should cover this.

    7. Re:Trading has its risks by bagsc · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You're at least half right. But this isn't a question of information about prices - if it were, NASDAQ and the ECN would be off the hook. This is a question of whether the ECN executed orders that should not have been executed and NASDAQ didn't cancel them all. That's when risk minimizers are hit.

      If I market buy because the ticker says a $50 stock is selling at $40, it goes through between 10:46 and 10:58, then NASDAQ is right to cancel at 12:30: no problem. If my option straddle executes on the volatility on both sides, one before and one after 10:58, but NASDAQ cancels the options in-the-money (on Instinet) but not the options out-the-money (on another ECN), then its a problem. If I'm an idiot, and leave those options open unchecked through a halt, then its my fault for engaging in a risky behavior and getting slammed in the ensuing short-squeeze.

      Other stocks in the sector were off by 10%, so it was not stupidity to think that a 20% move was legitimate. NASDAQ halted Instinet, but not other ECNs. Archipeligo already announced intentions to file suit with the SEC on the matter. And that won't be the last suit filed on it.

      --
      http://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
    8. Re:Trading has its risks by mkldev · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Rescinding sales after the fact may qualify as willful tortious misconduct. The requirement is that it must have been a direct action taken by NASDAQ (rescinding the stocks, in this case) with intent to harm a business (the day traders) rather than to promote its own purposes.

      If it can be shown that NASDAQ's systems caused this, rather than a glitch in someone else's systems, then their action was taken as an act of self-preservation, and would not be tortious. If it was caused by a problem on someone else's system, though, it probably would be.

      If, however, the failure was caused by NASDAQ's systems, the fact that safeguards were not put in place to detect such a runaway sell order qualifies as gross negligence on their part.

      Either way, if that were the contractual agreement between the day traders and NASDAQ, it seems likely that NASDAQ is screwed. However, the text you quote above is clearly web site boilerplate information, and has nothing to do with the contractual obligations NASDAQ has regarding an actual sale of stock. Without those contracts and a solid knowledge of contract law in the state of New York, we're all basically guessing here.

      That having been said, the odds do seem to lean in favor of NASDAQ being found to be negligent, and thus at fault, IMHO.

      --
      120 character sigs suck. Make it 250.
    9. Re:Trading has its risks by Gorobei · · Score: 2, Interesting
      How the hell can Archipelago be to blame? People wanted to buy and sell at specific prices - Archipelago enabled them to do it. If traders ignored the risk of exchange actions, that's their problem.


      Exchange/clearing interventions of various types have occured many times in the past (for example, the redefinition of futures contracts during the Hunt brother's Silver corner, the post-WWI coffee futures reset, the post-9/11 T+5 swap settlement change.)


      NASDAQ was the party making the exceptional change, not Archipelago.

    10. Re:Trading has its risks by Gorobei · · Score: 2, Interesting
      You should prepare for that risk the day you open your brokerage account, buy a seat on the exchange, etc. You have no more reason to expect a trade to be immediately good than you have a right to mow down slow pedestrians if you have a green light: a big set of (fairly common-sense) rules apply.


      Wall Street rewards non-diversifiable risk taking, and one of those risks is that trades will be disputed. Your average investor has many ways to mitigate that risk (dollar cost averaging, investing in mutual funds, using a broker.) Don't cry for them that took some damage in this case: it's a risk they knew (or should have known) they were running. You don't see them volunteering to return previous profits on arbitrage trades that went off well, do you?

  12. Bound to happen. by dolo666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This reminds me of a nugget.

    The stock market is frail, and a fool's playpen. I remember hearing a story about a huge media barron, before the stock market crash that led to the great depression. The mogul was standing in this elevator and overheard busboys talking about how they were going to start playing the stocks. The millionaire immediately sold everything when he got to the office. His reasoning was that if two people who had no money were playing stocks, that they were a sign that the whole system was at fault and doomed. I forget who this person was, so if anyone remembers... hehe feel free to say.

    The guy's logic is correct even to this day, imho. The big companies that go public hope that an infusion of cash will make them more profitable, but it usually ends up that they get to take a break on stockholder's money for a while until it's deadline time again and they have to scramble to make product/service X work.

    The whole system is wrong.

    Look at all the ads for investing these days. They all suggest that you trust them to make you money, and they have as selling points, how easy it is to make money. The easier it is, the more moot it is, imho.

    There is no easier way than hard work.

    Glitches are bound to happen. Remember when the grid went down this past summer? I would have suspected major losses then, but somehow it wasn't that bad?

    1. Re:Bound to happen. by Preston+Pfarner · · Score: 2, Informative

      >> before the stock market crash that led to the great depression
      > I believe the mogul was Warren Buffett.

      Wow, I knew Warren Buffet was getting on in years, but it's quite surprising to learn that he was already a mogul 74 years ago!

      (actually, he was born in 1930, the year after the crash)

    2. Re:Bound to happen. by darkov · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There is no easier way than hard work.

      I wonder how old you are, because you sound like my father.

      The fact is that there is no harder work than taking a risk. Things like the stock market allow people to take measured risks in return for a greater reward. It also provides cheap capital for businesses and liquidity in trading businesses. Without it the economy would be less efficient and your "hard work" would buy you a whole lot less.

    3. Re:Bound to happen. by Galvatron · · Score: 4, Interesting
      As someone else pointed out, this may be an urban legend; the version I'd heard of this involved shoeshine boys. The lesson to take away, however, is not "the whole system is wrong." The lesson is that all available sources of cash had been exhausted. The stock market will only rise so long as there are more buyers than sellers. The only way that happens is if there are people with cash that has not yet been invested in the market. During runaway bull markets, everyone wants in, so people sell bonds, cash out their savings accounts, etc. and dump it all in the stock market. Eventually, these sources of cash run dry, and the market crashes. The point of the original story is that if busboys are putting money in the market, then we're near the limit, there are no more new sources of cash for the market, and it's time for a crash.

      The same thing happened in the 90's. I read an article about how states which, during the great depression, had passed laws forbidding governmental organizations from putting money in the market were now repealing those prohibitions. Well, if Depression-era legal prohibitions were being repealed, then the market was due for a crash. Unfortuately, my prediction was a good two years eary, but oh well.

      --
      "The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
    4. Re:Bound to happen. by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The stock market is frail, and a fool's playpen.

      Actually the stock market has been the best place to invest one's money over the last 70 years. No other investment actually outpaces inflation.

      Remember when the grid went down this past summer? I would have suspected major losses then, but somehow it wasn't that bad?

      When your predictions don't come true, it's time to re-evaluate your assumptions.

      Glitches are bound to happen.

      Yup. The question is what happens afterwards - do they get corrected and people move on, or do not get corrected and people lose confidence?

      The former seems to have happened here showing that the system has a degree of failure tolerance.

      Look at all the ads for investing these days. They all suggest that you trust them to make you money, and they have as selling points, how easy it is to make money. The easier it is, the more moot it is, imho.

      As you well know, advertisements and reality are two different things. Making money by investing it is hard work, requires intelligence, wisdom and perserverence. If you let yourself be driven by fads and ads, well you are one of the people PT Barnum was talking about.

    5. Re:Bound to happen. by demachina · · Score: 2, Offtopic
      Here is an interesting, though left wing interview with Standard Schaefer on the ulterior motivies of the imminent plan by the Republicans to privatize social security and to use it to pump money in to Wall Street. It should be taken with a grain of salt but raises a lot of thought provoking questions about how the markets really work.

      Assuming the Republican's retain control of power next year its a near certainty they are going to make a first attempt at privitizing Social Security. The case for this was very strong during the bubble, they just had to point to how much money people were making in the stock market versus the miniscule return on the money in social security.

      This movement suffered a major setback when the bubble burst and large numbers of small investors had their retirements wiped out and ended up working at Walmart. Of course they could have stayed the course, assuming they hadn't put all their money in complete turkeys Wall Street told them were sure things, and would have come out OK but a lot of people saw their life savings disappearing at an alarming rate and managed to get out just in time for the bottom of the market.

      So Wall Street and the Republicans are pretty keen on the current bull run to continue, and are doing everything they can to fuel it, as in extremely low interest rates to fuel margin buys and cutting taxes on dividends, so they can resume the plan to move Social Security money that is mostly going towards covering the deficit in to the stock market. The influx of this new money should further fuel a boom market that will rival the last bubble. Unfortunately there is a pretty good chance it will be followed by another huge correction, another one those in the know will correctly time, and get out on top, while the most basic retirement security of a lot of average people will be wiped out again.

      From the article above:

      "The financial sector is looking at these funds like a shark that sees nice juicy prey swimming in the water. They would love to get their hands on Social Security and Medicare funds to manage, at a 2% fee. Even just 1% this would amount to tens of billions of dollars annually, not including the speculative gains that could be made on the turbulent market run-up."

      --
      @de_machina
    6. Re:Bound to happen. by cubicledrone · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There is a science to investment. You just have to know how to read numbers, know how a corporation works, understand how trading works and understand what you are buying.

      Stocks were never meant to be traded as speculation on the share price. Purchasing stock is purchasing a share of a company's future earnings in the form of dividends. This is why people who invest long term make more than people who buy expecting to sell with a profit in the same week.

      There are several stocks paying 5-10% real returns as dividends right now. Try getting that rate at the bank. The best CD right now might pay 2%, if that.

      --
      Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
    7. Re:Bound to happen. by bagsc · · Score: 4, Informative

      The big companies that go public hope that an infusion of cash will make them more profitable, but it usually ends up that they get to take a break on stockholder's money for a while until it's deadline time again and they have to scramble to make product/service X work.

      I've seen many types of correct critiques of the system, but this is just wrong. When a company receives money by issuing equity, they give up (through dilution of voting rights) partial control of the company. Management only authorizes stock issues when they expect to make money faster with the increased capital than their original equity could.
      An IPO or follow-on offering brings in money, but it doesn't make the issuer "rich." If those accelerated earnings don't materialize, the company will be worth just as much as it was worth before, only now the original owners have a smaller stake.

      Look at all the ads for investing these days. They all suggest that you trust them to make you money, and they have as selling points, how easy it is to make money.

      I challenge you to produce evidence of this. This is strictly illegal. Read up on securities law my friend, and you will notice that the regulations on investment advertising is pretty severe. If you promise someone to make them money and can't deliver, you are in violation of the law.
      The Securities Exchange Act of 1934 set out the general provisions, and the National Association of Securities Dealers (NASD) Advertising Rules have strict guidlines on what constitutes violations regarding investment advertising.

      And even if somehow this ad got past the NASD, it wouldn't get past the SEC. If you learn anything about investing, learn that SEC Rule 10b-5 is your friend.

      --
      http://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested
    8. Re:Bound to happen. by system_trader · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Stocks were never meant to be traded as speculation on the share price.

      This is completely false. Investors would never purchase stock without the ability to sell it.

      Purchasing stock is purchasing a share of a company's future earnings in the form of dividends.

      Future earnings and dividends always have some uncertainty. Traders and investors trade or hold stock positions based on speculation on the future of earnings/dividends.

      This is why people who invest long term make more than people who buy expecting to sell with a profit in the same week.

      This is completely false. It is possible to be successful with both long term (investing style) and short term (trading style) speculation.

      The key to low risk returns is to have a reliable, statistically valid method for speculation. Some find success with a long term fundamentals-based approach, others with exotic neural networks, or other higher frequency analysis. Some can achieve profitability with hundreds of trades per day. It is wrong to assume that any one time frame or bias (eg. long positions only) is inherently more successful.

      There are several stocks paying 5-10% real returns as dividends right now.

      That's because the stock price has dropped relative to the dividend, while the dividend has remained constant. What most don't realize is that these stock prices AND their dividends are at more risk than 5 to 10%. What good is a 10% annual dividend if the stock drops 25% in the first year?

      Try getting that rate at the bank.

      Banks offer a very low risk return.

      In general:

      higher returns == higher risk
      lower returns == lower risk

    9. Re:Bound to happen. by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      From http://www.axaonline.com/rs/3p/sp/5015.html:

      The stock portfolio did not suffer a loss in any of the 685 separate 20-year holding periods. In every period, the annual rate of return for the stock portfolio was greater than the inflation rate. At the same time, the bond portfolio outpaced inflation in only 317 of the 685 20-year holding periods -- by a much lower margin."

      So in other words, you are wrong - in more than 1/2 of the baseline 20 year periods bonds DID NOT outpace inflation.

      Real Estate is even worse - it is illiquid to the extreme and subject to severe price fluctuations as a result of interest rate variations. The real estate bubble of the 90's pretty much put an end to the concept of real estate as a reasonable approach for personal investing. The upcoming retirement of the baby boomers along with sales of homes implicit in this will place a severe secular downward pressure on real estate.

  13. The cancel probably shouldn't have happened by 31415926535897 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I work for a firm that writes software for options traders and clearing firms. Sometimes system glitches do happen (or more often than not, a user error, like entering in the wrong price). However, when this happens and a trade occurs, it sticks unless both parties agree to bust the trade.

    The fact that the trades were cancelled without permission from everybody involved in the trades is quite disturbing (because then it can set up precedence that any of your trades could be cancelled without you knowing about it, and that can really screw up your position).

    Some people lose money because of mistakes, and some people make money because of mistakes...that's part of how the market works, and you should be willing to accept that risk if you're going to trade.

    If it really was that bad (and a $20 difference is huge), and archipellago did screw up, they should take responsiblity and take the losses. If someone just entered in the wrong ask price, then that firm should take the responsibility. I know if our systems screw up our traders, then we mitigate those losses.

    I have a feeling there might be some lawsuits in the near future if there were a lot of shares traded.

    1. Re:The cancel probably shouldn't have happened by treat · · Score: 4, Informative
      The fact that the trades were cancelled without permission from everybody involved in the trades is quite disturbing (because then it can set up precedence that any of your trades could be cancelled without you knowing about it, and that can really screw up your position).

      That precedent is already there, for example NASDAQ's "clearly erroneous" rule.

      Really this happens all the time and I don't know why this particular incident made /.

    2. Re:The cancel probably shouldn't have happened by Gunzour · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It does not happen all the time. I believe this is the first time NASDAQ has ever cancelled trades *after* allowing a stock to resume trading. It is fundamentally unfair to allow a stock to be trading and then after the fact announce that some of those trades will be cancelled. That is why NASDAQ has the ability to halt a stock, and it should not have been resumed until after all decisions about cancelling trades were made and published.

    3. Re:The cancel probably shouldn't have happened by LostCluster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      However, Archipelago was the first to make the decision to resume trading, so most of the people who got burned did so there. NASDAQ then was caught in a no-mans-land of decision making... their investigation hadn't yet returned an explanation, but Archipelago's actions indicated that they had already made a decision that the trades were going to stick. For a trading halt to be effective, there has to be a trading halt everywhere. The markets should have seperate regulatory divisions, but they all should be coming to the same decisons at about the same time. Archipelago clearly didn't do a good investigation here... that's the question that needs further investigation.

    4. Re:The cancel probably shouldn't have happened by Gunzour · · Score: 3, Informative

      NASDAQ's own press release gives exact times for everything, except for what time they decided to cancel the erroneous trades. There are reports in the Yahoo message board for COCO of people who bought shares during the time period in question unable to get an answer from their brokers as to whether or not there buy was valid, even after trading resumed.

      To me, Archipelago seems to be the big problem here. They willfully resumed trading of the security even while NASDAQ continued the halt, and complained that Nasdaq "used this authority to attempt to impose on its competitors a trading halt in a situation that was unique to it."

      It would seem to me that if a stock is halted on one market, it should be halted on all markets, and I think it was irresponsible for Arch to resume trading. Clearly there was enormous confusion over this stock during the time frame in question, and the purpose of a halt, in my opinion at least, is to allow information to get out to eliminate the confusion in order to ensure a fair market. Arch's action of unilaterally resuming trading resulted in increased confusion and an unfair market situation.

  14. Too good to be true by penguinoid · · Score: 2, Funny

    From the FA:
    Some exchange officials, speaking on condition of anonymity, said they had little sympathy for traders who bought stock at the low prices, and then lost money when they sold the stock before learning that the earlier trade was being canceled. "They should have known that was too good to be true," one said.

    Damn! Gotta check my Linux box for back doors, addware, or some other bug. I should have known it was too good to be true!

    --
    Don't waste your vote! Vote for whoever you want, unless you live in a swing state it won't matter anyways
  15. Hyper-transactional databases? by mcrbids · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My first thought when reading the summary above was that this would be an easy problem if managed by a central, relational database system.

    Simply "roll back" the transaction that failed, and the dependencies would cancel themselves out. But, then I realized that the current RDBMS model only allows for a single transaction - you can't nest them.

    Also, transactions are private only - you cannot transact with data in the middle of another transaction.

    Thus, you might have ACID compliance, but only with one level of "undo".

    How hard would it be to create an RDBMS that supports infinite levels of "undo" or transaction/rollback.

    Such that you commit transaction A, which affects rows 1,2,3, and 11. Then, another transaction B which affects (further) rows 2, 3, and 12.

    Then, if you roll back transaction A, transaction B would be similarly affected. I dunno - the depencies may get rediculous - but it seems that this could and should be done at some point.

    Bright idea? Or another noise from an unpleasant orifice?

    Let me know what you think!

    --
    I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    1. Re:Hyper-transactional databases? by solman · · Score: 2, Informative

      The problem is that there are many trading systems.

      You can't use two phase commit because it doesn't scale in the real world.

      This means that all trades would have to be conducted on a single system.

    2. Re:Hyper-transactional databases? by cduffy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Even that is excessive. Tag each table entry with a timestamp, and never issue deletes or updates -- just a new insert which either declares an old value to be considered deleted or changed. Want to roll back to $GIVEN_DATE? Just delete everything added since that time.

      That said, this wouldn't be practical in this case, just because the amount of rearchitecting that would be needed to implement it.

    3. Re:Hyper-transactional databases? by Fnkmaster · · Score: 4, Informative
      Well, the first problem is that all trades are pretty much temporally dependent for a given instrument. So you basically have to back out all the bad trades made after a point in time. Which is essentially what was done in this case - the trades *were* all cancelled. Keeping a real transaction open would be prohibitive and silly, since you want to design a system where these kinds of fuckups are very rare and manual.


      Unfortunately, people don't seem to understand the real problem here. The problem is that people make offsetting trades in other markets, that are built on other systems, to lock in profits in the primary market. This story was about traders who sold options contracts to lock in profits on the stock itself. The trades on the stocks were busted by NASDAQ, but the options trades can't be backed out of, they are in a separate market. Thus the trader gets fucked. Having a transactional rollback capability on the NASDAQ wouldn't help here, it would have to encompass all the other markets people might trade in.


      Mind you, I would think there would be legal recourse here based on contract law. The buyer entered into an option sale contract with reasonable reliance on the NASDAQ's "promise" that they bought the stock at a low price. Promissory estoppel against the NASDAQ, or against Archipelago? I don't know, sounds to me like an interexchange issue that needs legal or regulatory collaboration more than it needs a technical solution.

    4. Re:Hyper-transactional databases? by Unordained · · Score: 2, Interesting

      a) rdbms theory does not preclude nested transactions. in fact, CJ Date & H Darwen seem to rather think it should be part of the the requirement for a rdbms. current products don't all support nested transactions, but some do.

      b) you don't want this anyway. a trade is a contract, and like contracts usually are, undoable only if both parties agree to do so. in the case of trades like these, with a domino effect, the top-level traders who want to undo their trade (or at least one side does) need to ask the permission of everyone affected. that could be thousands, millions of people only a few minutes later. (especially in a case like this, where people pounce on a good deal.)

      not all decisions made based on the stock market stay in the stock market. while you would possibly undo all trades 'based' on the bad trade, you'd miss all the indirect dependencies within the stock market, as well as the business decisions made outside the stock market: deciding you can afford to buy something you wouldn't have otherwise, etc.

      i would personally ask for absolutely -no- ability to undo transactions of this sort automatically. no trades should be undone, regardless of how 'wrong' they seem, unless everyone involved agrees. if you sold lower than you meant to, and someone buys ... they're not likely to agree. and that's just too bad.

      if a computer glitch resulted in an incorrectly posted price, then the computer systems and their maintainers should be responsible, but the trades should continue without interruption. they provide a service, they failed to provide it correctly, and no remedy would be complete enough if done strictly by modification of the stock market. it's a case where they can't remedy their mistake by undoing it -- only by reimbursing the harmed parties.

      however, the -value- of the mistake is complicated. it's a time-based systems, with humans making decisions. can they prove what the price should have been, or how many people would have traded at that price? it's difficult to prove how much loss was incurred. that's a very judge/court-oriented thing to decide.

    5. Re:Hyper-transactional databases? by mabhatter654 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The only other issue is the "second-order" effects... i.e. I saw this "deal" so I sold another stock at an sub-optimal position to get in on the "deal" now that stock has changed positon and I want it back...

      Frankly, they should heavily penilize the errant broker...perhaps 1 month inelligibility to trade...and make the "day traders" live with their choices. Day Trading is a questionable, but legal practice anyway...like french fries & soda pop, too much will wreck the market...perhaps a few incidents like this will self-curb the trend or kick out a few sloppy brokers!

  16. Not always possible by Pac · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Think about it: people who bought and sold the erroneously priced stock can undo their sells and buys. Now the people who bought from those first generation buyers must be allowed to undo also. In the second generation a new problem arrises: these people have no reason to undo nor do they have done anything wrong - you bought a car, paid $1000 instead of $10000 because the clerk at the store made a mistake and sold me the car for $5000: why should be forced to give you the car back when the store come to collect the rest of its money?. Now interact a little more - the future market works at a very fast pace, hundreds, thousands of trades may happen in a minute. Somewhere down the line things may get really messy, bith logistically and legally.

    1. Re:Not always possible by gertsenl · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I say there's a real simple way to solve this, no logistic or legal mess. Make them make good on the original sell order. They, in turn, want to sue the software developer? Let them handle that on their own time and out of THEIR pockets.

      --
      --Leo
    2. Re:Not always possible by zeno_2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One of my old friends I used to work with went into staples, they had a coupon or somethin where one of the Sony Digital Mavica camera's was like 250 bucks. The coupon said "limit 2", but for some reason the clerk thought this meant, you get 2 for 250 bucks. My friend had paid with a credit card, and walked out with 2 cameras for 250 bucks. A day or so later he got a call from the Staples manager, the manager wanted him to come in and take one of the camera's back. Of course my friend didn't do it, but it was somewhat humerous that the manager called him up and asked him to bring one back..

    3. Re:Not always possible by Sancho · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you're going to scam a store, it's best to do it with cash. Then they can't even call you, and they certainly can't try to charge you for the device after-the-fact. I'm surprised that didn't happen in this case.

    4. Re:Not always possible by gilroy · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Blockquoth the poster:

      Of course my friend didn't do it

      It disturbs me that no one seems to question this "of course". Your friend was wrong. He made an unjustifiable profit on a mistake made in good faith by the clerk -- a mistake he clearly recognized as such. What he did might have been legal but it was wrong. And yes, I'm the kind of guy who goes back to a store if I discover I've received too much change.
    5. Re:Not always possible by ameoba · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You ever try going back to a store and telling them you got too little change?

      --
      my sig's at the bottom of the page.
  17. Why undo such errors? by A+non+moose+cow · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "There does not seem to be any way to gracefully undo such errors"

    They wouldn't have to be gracefully undone, if there was a simple check to gracefully prevent them from being made.

  18. The initial cause was ... by RealProgrammer · · Score: 3, Funny
    The problem appears to have begun with an order to sell that was entered into a system that Gr8Trade, a subsidiary of Instinet Group, leases to brokerage firms. The system allows a firm's customers to enter their orders directly into the system, and sends them to markets for execution.

    W3 R Gr8Trades. All U base R belong to us. Nyaaaaa.

    (Anyone entrusting a company named "Gr8Trades" to buy 5000 shares at $40/share should be spanked. $200,000 was theirs, now it's not.)

    --
    sigs, as if you care.
  19. Warning: Instant big profits never happen... by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think the people left holding the bag here are exactly the right ones: The ones who thought they were gonna make instant big profits.

    Not only did think they had bought something something at far below its value, they then signed options contracts to sell what they had just bought at slightly below its regular price. They should have known something was fishy... why would anybody want to pay close to the normal price to them if the price had just plumeted? Why would anybody want to sell to them at far below the usual price?

    The should have known that the rules of the game allowed for their trade to be undone, yet they committed to an options contract that couldn't be undone because if they had hesitated, they risked their "instant profits" going away... their fault.

    1. Re:Warning: Instant big profits never happen... by Herkum01 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Do you know what the market is going to do at any given month, how about any given week? Day? Hour? Minute? The market is set up under the principle that transactions are executed immediately and without prejudice. If the stock price goes down $2, who is to say that is wrong? You? Stock prices can go down drastically in a few hours, does anybody sit there deciding that they know the reason why it went down? Hell no, someone puts in a order to buy ABC at 40, and that is it. If the someone sells at 40 the transaction is completed. No moralizing.

      The point is, the stock market is setup to not worry about the specific reasons why something occurs, it is only to do transactions between buyer and seller. If the software fucks up, well the company who was using the software is responsible and can get sued for it.

      Saying that the buyer beware is just an excuse for unreliable software. You use the software you are responsible, in much the same way if you drive a car and you hit a person you are responsible. Does not matter if it was intentional or accidental.

    2. Re:Warning: Instant big profits never happen... by otherwhere · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're half right. Every one of the, uncancellable, option trades had to be covered by a market maker in the option market on which it was sold. (A market maker is a firm that is always willing to buy at some price and sell at a slightly higher price, so that there is always a market.) The market maker doesn't just assume all the risk -- it covers it self by buying and selling the stock underlying the option, from the equity market, in this case nasdaq. These market makers, at least one of whom, per exchange, is obligated _always_ to provide a market for the stock, get their equity trades rolled back, also, even thought they calculated the price of the options based on the erroneous underlying -- if the stock is trading at $40 the right to sell it next month @ 45 is worth at least $5, a little more since there is time value -- it could go up and make more money, but it can exercise right now and get that $5 profit.

      So the market makers are fucked because they sold all the options at bad prices, had the equity trades they used to offset the risk they are obligated to take removed, and now must scramble to price the options correctly, since the historical data used to price an option, i.e. volatility of the nderlying stock price is now hosed.

      For every angle shooter, there was (at least) one situationally innocent player getting the same reaming.

  20. Maybe Not Fixable, But Preventable by DrunkenTerror · · Score: 3, Insightful

    /. write up:

    There does not seem to be any way to gracefully undo such errors.

    From the article:

    Such losses would have been prevented if the markets had not resumed trading until a decision was made on which trades, if any, should be canceled. But with markets intensely competitive, trading resumed before officials had made their decisions. The losers were traders who were not responsible for the errors or the slow decision making.

    But I guess hindsight is 20-20, right?

  21. Only about the yelling part, I think by Pac · · Score: 2, Interesting

    given enough damage, it is not impossible for Nasdaq to consider voiding every deal since the glitch started...

  22. there goes my confidence by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How can I have confidence in a stock market where trades can be suddenly reversed if someone cries, "but it was a mistake!" That's like my buying a car and while driving out of the lot someone jumps in front of me and demands an extra $5,000 because they made a mistake. Sorry, I've got my receipt, the car is mine buddy.

  23. Back when I was writing trading software... by ptomblin · · Score: 4, Informative

    It was unusual to see the spread between buy and sell markets be more than a few cents. And with the software that let you see the position on NASDAQ and all the other order books simultaneously, that spread was getting even smaller.

    So I find it puzzling that traders wouldn't realize something was amiss with a $20 spread on a stock. I'm sure they did realize it was amiss, and there was a strong possibility that NASDAQ would break the trade, but they figured they'd go ahead with the trade just in case they could make some money before it was broken. It was, they lost money, and now they're crying.

    BTW: Somebody asked what NASDAQ's software runs on. Mostly they use Suns, although there are some Windows systems, and possibly some SGIs.

    --
    The next Cmdr Taco duplicate will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and see it early!
  24. Insurance by squashed · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Graceful way to undo? Of course not. However, it's not to say that a financial market could not operate with these types of glitches anticipated in the system. For example, there could be introduced explicit insurance against the risk of such infrastructure failures. Notably, large players -- typically making the most sweeping "hedging" buys of the kind described here -- would not buy such an insurance product. Instead, they would self-insure, adopting internal practices that would factor in the risk of infrastructure failure, and spread the risk across all its operations. In other words, in the absence of explicit insurance, it's just another example of games that only large institutions should play. In fact, it is often neither advisable nor desirable to make markets "safe" for small players. It's just too expensive, in terms of additional overhead and lost market efficiencies.

  25. Thunderdome by jd_esguerra · · Score: 5, Funny
    start stocking up on toilet paper and gold coins!

    Pffft...Screw that! Start making a list of people who are stocking up on toilet paper and gold coins. This is anarchy baby!

  26. False start by Archipelago? by LostCluster · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The system actually seemed to have worked pretty well except for the actions of th Archipelago market. There's no way to prevent errant data from making its way to the financial markets, so the question is what are you gonna do about it once it gets there?

    What's supposed to happen is that everyone is supposed to stop trade in the stock while market officials try to sort out what happened. The NASDAQ did just that, and called the company involved to see if they had any news that would have justified the drop and they responded that there was no news. NASDAQ announced that their initial review indicated that there was errant trading going on, reserved the right to cancel the trades made before the halt, and released the stop. Within the hour, they confirmed the source of the problem, and revesed the errant trades.

    Yet, while trading was still halted on NASDAQ, Archipelago undid their halt without any announcement that anything was wrong. This is wrong on two levels... not only did it falsely convince other people that the drop was for real, but it also pressured NASDAQ's decision-makers to hurry up, otherwise NASDAQ would lose trading volume to Archipelago.

    So, the blame for this mess really belongs at Archipelago... they seem to have done an investigation that resulted in a verdict of no error, where in 20/20 hindsight we know there was an error on the play. Did Archipelago conduct a flawed investigation, or did they conduct any investigation at all? This was a case of the market's self-policing rules falling apart rather than any computer program...

  27. Re:Easy Fix by Gunzour · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Nobody knew it was a bug at the time. They simply saw the price dropping dramatically and decided to take a risk and bet on a price rebound. It was only after the halt and after the resume and *after* these people sold what they though they had bought that NASDAQ decided to cancel the orders.

    Daytraders often buy on dips, betting that the stock is being oversold. This is a decent strategy, since often the reaction to bad news is more extreme than the news warrants. So, the stock dips suddenly, then regains a lot of what it lost. This is risky, because sometimes it turns out that news was even worse than initially reported, and the stock goes down even more. Daytraders understand this risk and accept it.

    However, NASDAQ has introduced an entirely unprecedented risk -- that your buy order may be cancelled with no notice after you have already sold it forcing you into a short position that you did not intend.

    Take this scenario:

    10:55 AM - Investor sees huge dip in stock, enters BUY order for 1000 shares

    10:56 AM - Investor gets confirmation from broker that he bought 1000 shares at $40, total price $40,000 (plus fees)

    10:58 AM - Stock is halted

    11:19 AM - Stock resumes trading, price starts going back up

    11:55 AM - Investor puts in SELL order for 1000 shares

    11:56 AM - Investor gets confirmation from broker that he sold his 1000 shares at $50, paying $50,000 (minus fees). That's a profit of $10,000.

    12:28 PM - NASDAQ announces cancellation of all trades between 10:46 and 10:58 AM.

    12:30 PM - Broker adjusts Investor's account to remove cancelled BUY order from 10:55 AM. But the SELL order was not in the cancelled time frame. Investor now has -1000 shares of stock and must buy to cover the debt.

    12:35 PM - Investor enters BUY order to cover the 11:30 SELL.

    12:36 PM - Investor gets confirmation from broker of BUY at $55 per share, total cost $55,000. Since the shares were sold at $50/share, that's a loss of $5000, due to NASDAQ's cancelling after the fact.

    If NASDAQ had announced it was cancelling transactions before resuming the stock, the investor would not have entered the SELL order in the first place, and the whole thing would have been a wash. That would be the fair way to handle it.

  28. Re:It was Joe Kennedy by WryCoder · · Score: 2, Informative

    He got a tip from a shoeshine boy and figured that the last players were in the game and the market could only go down. He got out and preserved his fortune through the crash of 29.

  29. Re:Oversimplification by dolo666 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There is no better ROI than genius.

    You could be like the guys who invented ICQ.

    Or you could create a business, that slowly churns in the coin.

    Or you could make a movie like Blair Witch, using about $5 of pocket change and some cigarettes, a scrap of tent and some gasoline, and make way more money than you'd ever make measuring stocks. Just don't make a sequel. :P

    Stocks are mere gambling, imho. The house always wins...

  30. in which case by sunya · · Score: 2, Funny

    I, for one, welcome our new pulp fiction overlords

    --
    MLT - simple and robust open source multimedia framework for Linux
  31. Re:Its not a glitch by carld · · Score: 3, Informative


    accordinging to the article it's not entirely clear what happened.

    .
    .
    .
    "There was some sort of system glitch," said Andrew Goldman, executive vice president of Instinet Group. "We are trying to figure out precisely what it was and who caused it. It appears that the result was an unintended effect on the stock in question."

    Other market officials said that the sell order apparently went into an electronic loop, endlessly repeating. Then automatic systems sprayed those orders throughout the market.
    .
    .
    .

  32. None. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As reported early, the "new" it is a compendium of "experts" each with little to no responsibility for the system as a whole.

    Any those may get fired surely will NOT be the responsible parties.

    Who's responsible? The people that allow sub-standard organizational theories to hold sway. The people who focused on minimizing expenses over insuring appropriate accuracy.

    In short, every manager and technologist in the place, except for those already unemployed because they argued against the policy.

  33. This is not the first time this has happened by vandelais · · Score: 4, Informative

    On Oct 2 2002, someone at a brokerage firm Bear Stearns entered a 4 million dollar trade as a 4 billion dollar trade and it wasn't doublechecked and caused most market indices do go down about a half percent DURING NORMAL TRADING HOURS during the last hour of trading.

    This was widely reported in the financial press, and eventually the sell position was unwound.

    Since the order was a sell order tied to a diversified holding, it caused this decline to happen with both the electronic Nasdaq exchange and also the auction-based NYSE.

    "In October of last year, for example, a trader at Bear Stearns mistakenly entered an order to sell $4 billion in stocks instead of $4 million. And two years ago London's stock market collapsed after one hapless trader entered an extra zero into a sell order."

    See

    http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/945909.asp?0sl=-21& cp 1=1

    and

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2294525.stm

    for more details

    Previous errors

    Mistakes have been made in market trading before by other companies.

    In May last year, London's FTSE 100 index dropped by more than 2%, after a trader typed 300m, instead of 30m, while selling a parcel of shares.

    In 1998 a Salomon Brothers trader mistakenly sold 850m-worth of French government bonds by LEANING ON HIS KEYBOARD.

    And at the end of 2001, shares in Exodus, a bankrupt internet firm, jumped by 59,000% when a trader accidentally bid $100 for its shares, at a time when its value was 17 cents.

    --
    Game: Player 'Donald J Trump' now has AI skill level 'experimental'.
  34. This happened to my friend on eBay... by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 2, Funny

    He saw an ad for really cheap DVDs at some discount web site. So he ordered a bunch of copies and then sold them on eBay. Only problem is he didn't wait until the DVDs actually arrived before he sold them, and it turned out they were out of stock, and the order was cancelled. So he had to buy the DVDs at a higher price somewhere else in order to fulfill his eBay sales. Oops.

  35. The issue is settlement. by Slashamatic · · Score: 4, Interesting
    The problem of trading back from a point in the past (as in more than one business day previously) is that you have to reverse settlements that have happened. Shares tend to stay on the depository system so they are easier to deal with (although this would need some hacking at the registrar as well), but cash gets transferred out of the control of market participants. For the shares, well generally, you are just a beneficiary name on a computer somewhere and the shares exist just as a global 'certificate' with the nominee set to the depositary account holder. Cash gets moved, generally very quickly and also internationally. For example, I sell GM for dollars at the NYSE, switch the dollars to Eoros and then use the proceeds to buy VW in Germany on Xetra. Two distinct markets, and a forex transaction.

    Clancy was a bit simplistic there - it would be a hell of a rollback.

  36. Re:A right to compensation. by Bob+Gelumph · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You don't seem to understand...
    A better analogy is that you sold the orange for 20c, then after someone was locked into buying it, because they have already sold it to someone else, you tell them that the orange is only available for $1, because the orange you originally offered did not exist.

    --
    I'm gonna need a spec.
  37. lazyness/stupidity? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I wrote the front end to an options management system for a commodities market a few years ago. market managers could drag the volatility graph as they saw fit (with the real trades superimposed).

    it was a quiet market mainly because only about 3 people really knew how to deal these things so most traders venturing in there would be fleeced.

    anyhow, as the terminal would reside on the trading floor i thought some security would be in order. the user had to log in to the system (validated against the network credentials) then after 2 mins of nothing happing, it would log out.

    the annoyed the trading floor staff and i was instructed to remove it, despite vigerous protesting (or should i say, a stream of explitives from me). lo and behold within 2 weeks there was an investigation - in a quiet period a trader had gone in and rigged the end of day prices (to make his book look better).

    this taught the management a lesson. this also taught me some things

    #1 dont underestimate human lazyness
    #2 dont understimate the stupidity of managment that is 'customer focused'

    now i look at this it has bugger all to do with the topic, but really ive wanted to get this off my chest for like 7 years :)

  38. Moral of the story... by mabhatter654 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...is for buyers and sellers to all SLOW DOWN and pay attention to long term performance rather than minute-by-minute numbers which aren't real meaningful statistics anyway. Frankly anything outside the offical quarterly reports is speculation anyway! Simply allowing only 1 trade per 24 hour period per stock would fix many, many issues with the market right now. The "day traders" should be restricted to playing "numbers" with Magic:TG cards and Ty Beanie Babies....rather than mucking with our financial backbone.

    1. Re:Moral of the story... by skaffen42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nope. That is absolutely the worst thing you could do to a market. The day traders actually REMOVE risk from the market. If it wasn't for them liquidity would drop and the market would become less efficient.

      Have you noticed that spreads keep on getting smaller? Think for a minute about why that happens...

      --
      People couldn't type. We realized: Death would eventually take care of this.
  39. Re:Easy Fix by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Here's the problem with your timeline. At 11:19 AM, trading didn't restart at NASDAQ. It restarted at Archipelago. When trading re-started as NASDAQ, there was a simultanious warning that it was likely the pre-stoppage trades would be reversed.

    Sure, there was out of line behavior, but it happened at Archipelago... who is a completely different operation. The moral of the story is to trust NASDAQ for a fairly played market, and beware of Archipelago opening trading too soon on stocks that should remain halted.

  40. chronology of events by system_trader · · Score: 2, Informative

    According to the posts on elitetrader.com:

    "A guy in my office said it was a trader at Bear. He was supposed to send a market order for 9,000....accidentally sent it for 9,000,000."

    Apparently an erroneous sell order (offer) was placed for 9M shares at $42. About 2M shares executed before the remainder of the order was canceled.

    Read the real-time reaction of traders here:

    http://www.elitetrader.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&th readid=25431

    Everyone realizes the offer is out of line. Some declare "free money!" and purchase as many as they can, then sell at $47, $52, $55, etc. None seem to realize that trades will be busted (canceled) until it's officially announced.

  41. This is capitalism, buddy. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If that corporation noticed it had accidentally overcharged the customer, there is no way in hell it would notify the customer and say "Here's your money back! Sorry!".

    The corporations go out of their way to fool and trick people into things; there's no fucking way you should let them off the hook when they fuck up in your favor.

    Maybe if we had a more rational economic system where the corporations didn't exist solely to fleece people out of their money, your solution would be allowable, but there's no way in hell anyone should give an american corporation the benefit of the doubt. They wouldn't think twice about raping you up the ass when given the chance.

  42. Add hysteresis to tackle glitches + bugs by Morgaine · · Score: 4, Informative

    Anyone that's done some control theory knows how to solve the problem --- just add some hysteresis into the feedback loop, ie. response delay in both directions.

    All forms of instability are reduced in their effect by this means, so it doesn't matter whether the instability stems from human error, bugs, or system glitches arising from other things.

    And exactly how would one do this? There's a ton of ways, and quite a few of them simply entail holding quoted prices steady for a mandated period, plus a few adornments.

    There are much more creative ones around though which could probably work even better, like allowing only audio readouts in trading rooms so that info comes in slowly like in tickertape days, or the one I like best, allowing traders to use no equipment other than the morning's financial newspaper, plus a pen and notepad. :-)

    --
    "The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
  43. Re:Its not a glitch by Wolfrider · · Score: 3, Insightful

    --You have to give them some props:

    > The price plunged, falling from $57.50 at 10:46 a.m. to a low of $39.25 at 10:54 a.m. Mr. Goldman said that Gr8Trade officials noticed the trading and notified Nasdaq of a possible problem. A Nasdaq official, who declined to be quoted by name, said Nasdaq contacted the company and was told there was no news to explain the move. It halted trading at 10:58 a.m.

    --Twelve-minute response time. That's better than I would ever have thought! Could have been a lot worse.

    --
    .
    == WolfriderV6 == I'm willing to admit that *I just might* be wrong... Are you??
  44. As a trader I feel I can comment by Lawrence_Bird · · Score: 3, Informative

    1) Anybody who bought at those low prices knew something was
    either a) very wrong or b) very bad news was out. This was
    after all a $60 stock and they were now buying at $42.
    Without going into detail, I find it impossible they lost
    any money on options trades (no open exchange, prices were
    much higher when they did reopen).

    2) Similar things have happend at CBOT and CME on their
    electronic stock index products a few times this past year.
    Most recently, a trader was said to have entered a stop/loss
    order in the less liquid Dow Jones futures for a very large
    amount. As CBOT handles S/L orders natively (internally),
    their system proceded to hit bids until the order was
    filled. Those trading S&P futuers did notice what was going
    on and started selling there as well, perhaps fearing a
    terrorist or other news related item. The sell off was not
    as far (500 Dow pts), in part because of the greater market
    depth, and the fact nobody could figure out what was going
    on. Trades were subsequently broken, hours later, on the
    CBOT, but NONE were cancelled on the CME. This caused quite
    a bit of pain for people who had s/l orders open which were
    executed, for all intents erroneously. (no not me, but I do
    know one who was). CME refused to cancel as the original
    event did not occur in house.

    To this day, I do not believe the order was entered in
    error. I believe a hedge fund or other firm had a need to
    buy, and buy large. What better way to get filled then to
    trigger a large move in a closely correlated market (Dow
    futures) where you know the majority of the trades will be
    cancelled, and just sit on the bid in the other market
    (CME) as people panic sell. And do not rule out collusion.

  45. So, what's the problem? by Orne · · Score: 2, Informative

    I caught the various news reports on CNBC on friday evening... apparently NASDAQ is only allowed to halt a stock when they are under investigation for regulation violations. When NASDAQ froze it, they also asked the west coast & overseas markets to halt trading on the ticker, but there was no precedent for this; NASDAQ just broke procedure. The interviewees seemed really pissed.

    From the article, it appears that the software that communicated market orders went into a loop, and submitted a loop of Sell orders on this one stock. If it were just little old me selling stocks I don't own, it's called a Short, and I'd be liable for buying back any shares I don't own. If its really a computer error, then its up to the market providers to cancel the orders.

    At some point, the SEC needs to find out who was liable this this little adventure. Why does NASDAQ allow companies to submit raw sell commands w/out proofing them for validity? And what about this software company? If it were me playing with Ameritrade, and their software repeats my order 100 times, shouldn't the software company be liable for all of the (unsolicited) trades? If these trades should have been cancelled, why did some markets resume trading before they validated the orders? I wouldn't be surprised if there's another round of market rules that fall out of this, because obviously there's a big loophole here.

  46. Wrong: NASDAQ got it 100% wrong by PleaseDontBeTaken · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Cancelling trades, even real errors, is the worst policy for NASDAQ. Here's why:

    #1 It destroys faith in the markets. A lot of the people who bought stock to provide liquidity had their buys cancelled, but not their sales. Therefore they lost money. This is a rare, but not the first time, this has happened. All those liquidity providers will be a little slower to stabilize the markets in the future because of the risk someone comes and cancels their trades later. Than means when you go to sell your 1000 shares of SCOX when the market is down and SCOX is down more, but you need the money to buy your house, that bid you are counting on might not be there, or it might be a lower price that it would otherwise be. And this happens thousands of times compared to the occasional "real" error, so the cost of this "what if my trade gets cancelled worrying" is very high and very real.

    #2 Negates personal (and corporate) responsibility by the people who caused the problem (which turned out to be a problem for a lot of people, not just them). People should think a bit before they hook up hundreds of millions of dollars to an automated machine, especially one that does things like "sell if I'm down 5%." Then they should think again. And if they handle that much money, we should be able to rely that they are sophisticated entities that should absorb their own errors. If not, someone needs to take their computers away and give them back their Nintendos to play with instead.

    #3 Nasdaq only cancelled orders executed through certain systems under their direct purview, not all trades done during that time regardless of system. Half a solution really is worse than none at all. Pretending the rest of the market doesn't exist (it's not part of us, so it's not our problem) is not a high quality solution.

    If you want serious reliability, it is possible. You have to think, and you have to be willing to pay for it, one way or another, if it's really that important.

    I tried to find a good link to Jay Forrester's Reliability of Components article but the only thing I could find was the IEEE which wanted me to buy it (again--I can't find it). If anyone knows of a valid link, or has the pdf, please respond or email me.

    --
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  47. Re:Its not a glitch by Sivaram_Velauthapill · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Financial systems are the heart of capitalism. Therefore, they are extremely efficient. There are a ton of resources that go into it, and there is a ton of money that they make. Even in poor countries, the financial systems are very good.

    Sivaram Velauthapillai

    --
    Sivaram Velauthapillai
    Seeking the meaning of life... @slashdot of all places ;)
  48. Re:Bullshit by sigwinch · · Score: 2, Informative
    When you buy stock, and you get confirmation that your trade has successfully executed, it's a done deal.
    No, it isn't. Execution of a trade means merely that matching buy and sell orders were recorded by the exchange. There is no verification of account balances: you are putting blind faith in an unseen seller. The actual payment is made later, during settlement, which is where account balances are checked and adjusted. In the U.S., settlement occurs three business days after execution. In foreign markets and international transactions, settlement may take weeks or even months.

    When you use the result of an order execution before its settlement, you are borrowing from your broker. The SEC allows this because the vast majority of settlements are completed as expected, so it doesn't destabilize the market, and it keeps money from being tied up. But even this generosity has limits: if you buy a stock, sell it the same day, then buy it again the same day**, the SEC considers you to be engaged in "pattern day trading" and makes you capitalize your account just like you were an option trader.

    **Subject to some exceptions that don't apply to the average individual investor.

    The company that created the bogus sell orders should be accountable for actually making those sales, even if it means they now have to buy up stock at a higher price.
    No sale occurred. They should be held accountable for breaching the settlement contract. Exactly what that means depends on the fine details of the contracts and of contract law, of which I have little knowledge.
    You WILL base your future behavior on the premise that you now hold that stock.
    All transactions for unseen goods entail a degree of risk and blind faith. The wise trader learns the laws governing such trades, learns how common and likely the various failure modes are, and acts accordingly. I refer you to the Bloomberg Financial Glossary definition of settlement risk: "The risk that one party will deliver and the counterparty will not be able to pay and vice versa." Competent traders are well aware of this risk.

    To put it more bluntly, when you buy a bill of goods up the river, you owe yourself to verify the situation before you sell to somebody who likes breaking kneecaps.

    This kind of behavior will undermine the stock market (and at a time when there's already plenty of reason for potential traders to be wary.)
    Even the most honest and careful make mistakes. If every mistake entailed unlimited risk as a matter of policy, only the kings of finance and complete idiots would trade. That would not be an improvement.
    --

    --
    Kuro5hin.org: where the good times never end. ;-)