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Game Feedback Gets More Intense With Electrodes
ne_ol'schmoe writes "The simple feedback of a Dual Shock is passé - vomit comet simulators will soon be possible without leaving your chair, since those wacky tech-heads at NTT have come up with a way to change people's perception of balance, using electrodes that fit behind your ear. They expect to integrate it with racing and flight games to have users lean into turns, and also to simulate gravity changes for a more realistic experience. Sounds cool, but now games will have to come with barf bags, I guess."
Some kid's going to do a barrel roll in Flight Simulator 2006 and become so unbalanced he'll fall off his chair and crack his head open. I don't think it's a good idea to mess with a sense that can seriously affect your ability to stay standing and move around, especially when it's just for the sake of a game.
For those of us who remember "motion sickness" in the original Doom - I guess it's just a matter of time before people get accustomed to the feelings.
I remember I needed to take hours of breaks after just half-an-hour of Doom the first couple of weeks, because of motion sickness. Far worse than "car sickness" which I used to have when I was a kid.
I grew up from "car sickness". I grew up from "motion sickness" in games. I guess it'll just take some weeks/months of playing with these electrode-things before one get used to it - and thus simply doesn't need the barf-bag.
"Rune Kristian Viken" - http://www.nwo.no - arca
In reality, if somebody's shot down in an airplane, it's okay for them to have a screaming headache and red out because they're about to freaking die. In a video game, it's nice to just watch the pretty pixels pass by before you crater.
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
The same thing happened to me when I played Wolfenstein 3D when I was 12. And here I thought it was because I felt bad for shooting pixellated characters...
--------
This isn't the sig you're looking for. Move along.
With in game cash and we've got a winner... Never have to leave the computer again, can make money and have experience realism from the comfort of an office chair.
I just had my scruples surgically removed as a precautionary measure. The doctor said tests indicated I had a tendancy towards scrupicular cancer.
How are you going to keep them down on the farm once they've seen Karl Hungus?
Motion sickness is caused by the lack of sync between what the eyes percieve and what the inner ear reports. By stimulating the sense of motion in sync with the visuals of a game there will in theory be less chance of motion sickness than the current state of the art: visuals are not synced to motion.
Of course inacurate or inproperly synced motion cues will cause obvious problems.
Any 3D game I play for more than a few minutes spinning around will give me motion sickness. I've been told that playing in a well lit room and staying far from the monitor will aleviate this problem but I don't play games much more anyway to try.
Every First-person-shooter I've played since 1996 seems to produce "sim-sickness" quite effectively without horking the inner-ear. I've found the newest "console" FPS games are even more effective at it. There's been several (Time-Splitters3,Warhammer40k,Quake3,etc...) that become so intolerable so fast that I can't even get through a level without wanting to just lay down and die. Unless this piece of kit can reduce or eliminate sim-sickness (where your inner ear wants a piece of the action your eyes/motor cortext are having fun with) by giving us another input it's not going to catch on.
Of course, it would be a blast for modders to create a program which would specifically be used to "torture", like a centerfuge. Keep that puppy around for when someone has been drinking too much, wrap them up in a blanket and clear the area. This could also see use in interrogation. It's one thing to wear people down from the outside (physical exertion, exposure, witholding food/water) but hook them up to something like this and you have a low-tech device that produces severe discomfort and disorientation. We'll know the real-deal when 3rd world countries start buying them by the pallet.
I could go on, but this is about as clean as it gets, because...
Every new form of media has it's own Requirimento
"For those of us who remember "motion sickness" in the original Doom..." I never experienced any sort of motion sickness with Doom. Descent, however, really made me dizzy. Guess I needed the third dimension to trigger any response.
As for "making players' bodies lean as they corner" in the article, I already do this whenever I'm playing a mario kart or F-zero. I even occasionally duck my head when I'm playing a shooter.
Slashdot certainly got its share of the tin foil hat brigade but this guy takes the cake. He is also a fine example of the living in mothers basement type since anyone ever having been in a protest gone wrong would know that merely being unbalanced would be peanuts compared to getting a face full of teargass.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
It seems the timing is right for me to now sell my collection of Defibrillator Capacitors on eBay for big bux.
A Good Intro to NetBS
At least now we know where the future of video games is headed... "NEW FOR PLAYSTATION 4... VIRTUAL TILT-A-WHIRL!"
Yeah, players will now be falling out of their chairs all the time and inuring themselves, as they lean into a corner that doesn't really exist.
Gravity will still pull down.
The sensation of balance has absolutly nothing to do with g-forces. They often feel related because it is usually movement that cause g-forces to be experienced other then the one pulling us down. But nothing done with a piece of wire by your ear or even shoved into your brain could make you experience g-forces. All it could do is make you think you are upside down. Or at worst feel a little bit sick if it chances to often or you are susceptible to car sickness.
Red out is cause by the blood being forced into the head usually by pulling negative g's. Such as when you point the nose of an aircraft violently down or go over a hill in a rollercoaster. Fighter pilots never do this as a Red out is very dangerous. Black out is the reverse and less harmfull provided you regain consciousness before the plane reaches the ground.
Sorry about the trollish tone I am catching up on /. stories and I have reached my stupidity tresshold.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Yes of course you could just pull the thing off but that isn't funny oh this wasn't either? Bleh.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
Mark my words, in a few years it will be 'Virtual Girl 4, now with Electrodes!' Use your imagination on where those electrodes connect, boys and girls...
"Me too" to both of those.
What they need to have is a controller of some sort that accepts your leaning and ducking as an input. I know that some arcade games have that--they just need to bring the technology home. Sort of like the EyeToy (or whatever it's called) for PS2, I guess.
This is just what I have to say. I agree motion sickness would suck, however I dont think that many people would be falling out of their chairs. If it makes you feel like you're tilting to the side then moving your body to the side would just make it worse. So if people are smart enough they wouldnt do that, if they do then they deserve to tip over and crack their skull on something.
so what?
I may live in the minority on this issue, but I sort of like that concrete separation of games and reality. I don't have any interest in the feelings or lives of my various avatars; I just want to play the game. That doesn't mean though that I don't find this interesting on a sort of passive level. I don't think I am ready to have vomiting induced when I get poisoned in game though. (Actually that sounds sort of cool)
This is going to be a big deal (assuming they can get consumers to bite on it, seems like one of those things that various watchdog groups are going to get uppity about) but I suspect that it will be embraced the same way that rumble technology has been; it will eventually get included in everything, even those things in which it does not fit or seem appropriate and eventually many gamers are just going to leave it turned off.
On Wall Street they say "buy low, sell high" On the pad we say, "buy high, sell high" Isn't that somehow better?
HAHAHA! Imagine what a virus writer could use these for:
"I was playing Flight Simulator with those new balance thingies... and suddenly, I started to rock forward and backwards, very very fast, and I barfed all over my keyboard, and then I fell off the chair and broke my left arm. Dammn thingies.
The only time I ever get motion sickness from video games is when I use one of those goddamn VR helms, I remember trying to play Dark Forces with one of those things on, I wanted to throw up after like four minutes. Worse yet, my buddy had these big screen TV goggles that he used to play playstation on when his roommate would go to bed, I tried playing EA's baseball game and was ready to be sick within 10 mintes ... to be fair I was drunk at the time too :)
Um, it's generally called "(Quake-)motion sickness" actually...
;)
I never heard about it happend in Doom and it really became wide-spread only with Quake.
I only get it by WATCHING long times somebody play FPSs, I never got it (yet) when I played them...
I'm not a medic, but I guess it's linked to the fact that you SEE something that your brain perceives as "motion" yet you don't get the sensation of inertia, and that the action on the screed is a few msecs delayed from the expected game's output your kbd/mouse output... which is of course worse (I guess) if you don't expect any response at all (also, never heard of drivers getting car-sick... only passengers).
I heard though (on Discovery ch. a few days ago) reports about "lag" in older real, big, expensive flight-sims causing the same effect (sickness/quesiness/etc). The "cure" was to reduce the lag of visual/gravific feedback under 50 msec.
So I guess they'll encounter a symillar problem here soon... but much worse (muscles inertia bound to be above 100msec).
So I'm quite eager so see how this turns out AFTER some real-life games tests
By reading this signature you agree to not disagree with the post you just read.
And just because you think that thinking that people are out to get you is paranoid or fantastic, doesn't mean that I shouldn't exercise my right (and skills) to accurately predict when such is the case.
Getting it wrong is fine. If I'm paranoid, that means I'm wrong, and I'd be glad to be wrong.
But sooner or later, mark my words, this technology will do bad things to the human species, with long-term effects.
We should not be so blase about human perception, or the means - electronic (and thus cheap), or otherwise - used to alter it forcefully under the control of another.
It is unwise, to say the least...
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Riiiiiiiiiiight, and this pertains to the current discussion in what way? Please elucidate me.
I spent yesterday in the hospital with my mom. They thought she had a small stroke because her balance was off and she kept falling to the right. Turns out it was a condition called labyrinthitis.
Messing with your inner ear through electrical pulse could certainley have some long term effects, like swelling or neuron damage.
An artificial vertigo sensation while playing a game isn't a fair trade off for possibly days of irregular balance.
WURD!!
This "technology" as you call it is NOTHING new or innovative "per se". It's just how it's applied.
Electricity, Electrodes, Electrodes behind the ear? Ban/boycott which of the previous "technologies"?
Give me ONE example on why I should suspect this new invention even COULD be used for "mass control" or something like that and I'm not going to call you paranoid... Hey, maybe you know a lot more than I do... So, go ahead, PLEASE EXPLAIN.
By reading this signature you agree to not disagree with the post you just read.
This would just require riot police to casually walk up to protesters, place an electrode on the back of their ear, stroll away, then activate it. Much easier to just gas them.
----- "Blame the guy who doesn't speak English." -- Homer J. Simpson
...might want to try this:-
Xshok
Sorry if its been posted before, I didn't find anything in the search.
Uhhh... anywhere you want to control a mass of people, this technology can be used.
Put it in the streets, use it for 'crowd control' in riot situations, make it a 'requirement for accomodating the needs of blind people' in sporting arena's, etc.
All I'm saying is we shouldn't be so blase about altering human perception with technology, or making cheap the means to do so... because in 20 years time, who is to say a whole different and radically inclined group of people aren't going to be able to use it for their purposes?
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
"Put it in the streets" ???
It's an electrode sticking behind your ear, dammit!
It needs physical contact, you need the consent of the person to have him wear it...
How could you control a crowd with such a thing?
"Please, everybody, now stick this device to your ear so we can make you dizzy" ???
By reading this signature you agree to not disagree with the post you just read.
I also have the problem only when watching people play (or when watching recorded demos). I've never had it when I was playing the game.
That being said, my dad does have problems when playing the games, and he pretty much stopped playing games around the same time.
As for the eye problems thing, I guess bad eyesight could make the effect more likely, but in my case my vision is better than average at close distances (I'm near-sighted), and I almost always wear my glasses anyway. It does make me wonder, though, whether or not my dad's ever tried playing FPS games with his reading glasses on.
Additionally, I've never had any other type of motion sickness, whether in a car, plane, or boat, unless some other problem caused it (ie I had an ear or sinus infection), and it takes about 30 minutes or more of watching for it to really kick in. When I do get eye strain, it's caused by a poor quality monitor and/or graphics card (ie low refresh rate), and that just gives me very bad headaches (sometimes migraines).
-PainKilleR-[CE]
He must be imagining what, an electrode gun that shoots electrodes into your ears? I am trying to imagine just what the hell he is thinking and how this could possibly be used for crowd control.
Besides, the next great crowd control device is microwave-based, and makes everyone feel hot/burning to the skin. How would affecting our balance help? Making a crowd fall over is not crowd control. Making them leave is.
Summary: torpor: full of shit.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
I wonder if this technology could have other, more-useful medical implications for people with types of Vestibular Disorders (inner-ear/balance problems). Attach the electrodes to a computer-controlled gyro in a small box (say something you wear around your waist) and say goodbye to self-balance issues.
All the same, I'm looking forward to seeing what impact this will have on future games.
Sure, you stick it behind your ear today... but in a year, there'll be projectable versions of it, if there aren't already. C'mon, you think even Sony might have something in the 'inner ear sub-magnetics' department, eh?
All I'm saying, and just get this through your head without making any bold assertions of tinhatted'ness about a person you know nothing about, is that its -dangerous- to be flippant about this technology; not least of which in the context of video games, frequently violent ones.
Who knows what sort of mess we could make of someones mental growth with things like this around, and who knows if sane, ordered societies are going to "always" be around to prevent their use?
Maybe its too big a question to pose on slashdot, though, I'll grant that
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
*Peripherals tend to sell much lower; 1/10 of what the system sells for upgrades to the system and what not.
*Uninformed users will link this to plugging into their brain. This frightens the general public.
*It's unlikely to be perfectly in time with the screen, as distance from the screen will change the required electrical output.
*You have to hook yourself up every time. Remember the NES Power Glove? ...yeah....
*After unhooking yourself you may feel unbalanced. Based on things I've gone through at hospitals, this may last an hour or two.
*Long term side effects won't be known off the front, but will certainly be feared.
At least you've finally explained yourself, and now I can assign an iota of credibility to what you said, whereas before I could not. Thank you for clarifying.
However, you still have a very neo-luddite attitude. You can't stop knowledge, or the quest for truth. If the video game industry doesn't do it first, would you rather the military do it first? Or the terrorists? Or the military of an "enemy" country?
It's going to happen. Everything we can imagine will eventually happen (to an excent). We may as well get used to it, rather than fall behind.
Yea, it sucks to be leaned against my will, but I would rather our govt know about the technology and how to use it, than, say, suppress it. You can't suppress anything. Eventually a terrorist will come in and, say, make everyone lean left during rush hour, killing thousands in car accidents.
It is key that we develop ALL new technologies faster than everyone else, if we are to have a greater understanding to defend ourselves in such weird situations. (It is unfortunate that we are a target, but that is a foreign policy debate, not a technology debate.)
Finally, I think mastering human perception via technologies is one of the final "evolutionary" (using that word loosely) steps of us as a species. 1) Printing Press, 2) Industrial Revolution, 3) Information Revolution, 4) Genetic & Technilogical Revolution. We are on the cusp of 3 and working towards 4.
Eventually I fully believe we will completely re-engineer our genetic code ANYWAY. After all, the more we depend on medicine (and antibiotics) and society, the less we actually evolve in the Darwinian sense. Natural selection barely occurs anymore. We are actually becoming much weaker as a species. Technology is going to have to take over and pick up the slack. Eventually there will be an uncurable flu that will kill millions, and eventually we will be genetically modified to not be able to catch the flue.
You can't run from it and be scared of it. A gun or sword or drug can all be used two ways -- good or bad. The same is true for most anything.
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
you mean a controller like this?
(don't know if it's practical)
I posted an "Ask Slashdot - Games" question about this... well here's the quote from my submitted stories page. Look at the date!
2001-05-03 15:11:42 What ever happened to Virtual Motion? (askslashdot,games) (rejected)
There was a company called Virtual Motion that was trying to bring this to market around 1999. I wanted to know if anybody knew what had happened to them.
Now some other company is trying to do it and it's all big news because one of the editors found out about it. What a bunch of crap.
Yeah, go ahead and mod me down for flaming, but you know that I'm right.
- - - If the sun is a star, why can't I see it at night?
I'm far from a neo-luddite, I assure you. I've been writing code since 1979, and have pretty much not stopped.
...
I've built computing systems for extremely large corporations, I've even started a few prominent ISP's or two, and now I'm living in industrial Germany working for a synthesizer company.
Something *CAN* be done about technology, and that is discussion. We're discussing it, you and me at least, and if there is at least a small conclusion that we must take a bit more responsibility - as technological people - for how our technology can be mis-used, then that is progress my friend.
True progress, not derived, as most all technological 'advances' are these days
We will not be the ones who benefit from technology being used to alter human perception.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Attach the electrodes to your NADS and THEN we'll see some high gain negative feedback gaming!
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
Actually, a thingy that synch's my inner-ear to the motions I'm experiencing in VR-world would be ACE. I get full on motion sickness after playing VR flight simulator for more than 30 minutes or so. Very annoying as it's the best I ever fly on a computer.
:)
I remember a NASA tech saying that the whole puking thing went like this:
1. Wwwwaaayyyy back on the savannas, if your eyes said you were rolling around but your inner said you were straight up, odds were that you'd eaten something nasty - brain sends signal to stomach to void, thus increasing your odds of surviving the poisoning.
2. Cue to now - either via VR games or through a weightless environment, your inner ear says "Nope, you're static" but your eyes/ears say "You're moving" - guess what - back to the good ol' days and puke-a-rama.
He had an interesting side note - when the shuttle first started taking scientists, they were hurling. They practically couldn't work. The astronauts were fine - everyone figured it was all that pilot training, etc. Nope - turned out the astronauts had been hurling back in the early days too - just not telling anyone
I left my body to science, but I'm afraid they've turned it down...
Does this remind anyone of the film "eXistenZ"? I find that film to be a way more intriguing future of gaming than the "electrodes". Granted, the electrode idea is basically a primitive version of the system used in eXistenZ, and also a lot more realistic given our current technology. If this story at all intrigues you, check out eXistenZ. (Think Matrix and Videogames colliding and that's the synopsis of the film)
Also, I firmly believe that when all the baby boomers die, policy in this country is going to take a rapid change, and many of the old ideals that screw everyone over will die. The drug war will end, etc etc......
And I don't think this will be in sidewalks in 2 years. But maybe it SHOULD be in, say, the WhiteHouse sidewalk.
And I also disagree that "we will not be the ones who benefit from technology being used to alter human perception". Arguably, I have already slightly benefited from such technology just by having played virtual reality games at the mall. It can only get better from here. When they have a direct neural jack, I will be first in line -- once it is approved and has been tested on OTHER humans.
You a libertarian by any chance?
-Clio
Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
Touch Fuzzy, Get Dizzy.
I definitely get motion sickness watching somebody else play a first-person perspective game of any sort (even Morrowind, where character motion was notoriously slow). Part of it, I think, comes from the unexpected, rapid mouse-controlled turns that people do when playing FPSes.
:)
If I'm in control of the character, I can generally stave off motion sickness for an hour or two, but five minutes of watching somebody else whipping their character around will make me ready to puke.
Also, optic flow (the apparent movement of an image through one's field of vision) seems to be related. Games where you move quickly, or where the walls/ceiling/floor are very close to the point-of-view, have a higher rate of optic flow, and those games tend to make me reach for the trash can a lot more quickly.
My girlfriend kept trying to look around the corners in Dungeon Siege by moving her head, and I kept snickering (well, hooting) at her, and she kept hitting me, so, yes, video games do lead to violence.