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Paperless Billing?

Posted by Cliff on from the keeping-a-paper-trail dept.

Bruha writes "Almost all of the bills I receive today have the option to go paperless. I already pay all utilities and creditcards online but have yet to tell them to stop sending me a physical bill even though they heavily advertise the advantages of it. My concern are mistakes they could audit out and claim were not there. Has anyone experienced any problems with paperless billing or are my worries without merit?"

114 comments

  1. Your worries are without merit by Tim_F · · Score: 1

    I have been going the paperless billing route for like 2 years now, and have never had a problem. Except when my ISP (also my phone company) decided to start sending me paper bills instead of emails. I haven't been able to get them to switch back yet.

    First Post.

    1. Re:Your worries are without merit by pbox · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You cannot realisticly project your good 2 years of experience for your entire lifetime of let's say 50 years. You are saying that it worked for 4% of time time (and counting), well that is not an assurance I would feel secure by.

      Of course the companies advertise it heavily, since it would certainly reduce their costs of mailing, etc.

      I chose a half-way solution, where I get paper bills, and I pay them online. Works fine for me, and I get to keep the paper trail.

      --
      Code poet, espresso fiend, starter upper.
    2. Re:Your worries are without merit by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, most worries are without merit. Here's additional proof...
      I frequently drive at a high rate of speed, without a seatbelt, and often while under the influence of various controlled substances.
      I've never been in an accident. Clearly, that proves that:
      1. Seatbelts are useless
      2. Speedlimits should be eliminated
      3. DUI should not be a crime.

      QED

    3. Re:Your worries are without merit by DrDemento · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Jesus the christ, you guys can react to the most innocuous things with a level of rabidity that really doesn't do a lot to support your opinions.

      First, the original question seemed to be asking for personal experience, which Tim_F gave. I know it's hard to figure out, because he used difficult words like "I" and "my" and "me" to indicate personal experiences.

      Second, only through willfull misunderstanding could a person read Tim_F's post as a strict, unyielding defese of paperless billing. Nowhere his post do I see where he guaranteed that no one, at any time, could have problems with paperless billing. He did say "your worries are without merit," but that was just taken from the original question in the first place.

      In short, personal experience was asked for, and he dared to give it. I suppose he also broke some secret rule that seems to be in effect prohibiting l33t slashdotters from actually answering a goddamn Ask Slashdot with a useful answer, rather than one of a billion recommendations, no matter the subject, that forgetting their idea and building their own open source version would serve them and society much better.

      --
      Do any actual scientists work here, or is it just one long game of truth or dare?
      http://wut.rhps.org
  2. Answer is simple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Use the paperless option only with companies you trust, ie the ones that have a premium customer service.

    1. Re:Answer is simple... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I trusted BT until I got a bill for dialup I never used.

      CYA.... Always CYA

  3. Problems happen no matter what... by -=[Dr.+AJAX]=- · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think mistakes could be made either way. Personally, I'd be checking both against my own records rather than errors between the two version of the statements.

    1. Re:Problems happen no matter what... by Red+Pointy+Tail · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've been using a leading online banking portal in Malaysia to pay my bills and do other stuffs like 3rd party transfers.

      One of the problems is that it does not show the running totals with the online statements - only the credits and debits and the most recent balance. I had a friend who had RM1000 (~USD263) 'disappear' undetected for some time from his online transfer - it was not until he updated his bankbook (that gives a running total) that he noticed something amiss. Apparently, after contacting the bank staff, it transpired that the system somehow registered a bill payment of RM100 but debited the account for RM1000. So this is a warning for all you *******2u.com users out there, let the user beware :)

    2. Re:Problems happen no matter what... by sporktoast · · Score: 3, Funny

      I think mistakes could be made either way. Personally, I'd be checking both against my own records rather than errors between the two version of the statements.
      Aw, cmon! If paperless is good enough for something important, like voting, then it should certainly do for something as insignificant as your personal finances.

      --
      In a related story, the IRS has recently ruled that the cost of Windows upgrades can NOT be deducted as a gambling loss.
  4. I won't give them the satisfaction. by digitalvengeance · · Score: 4, Insightful

    My credit card provider has been trying to get me to go with online billing for a while now, and to be honest, it would be easier for me - but I just won't give them the satisfaction.

    They save money when you choose to get your bill online only, and so they refuse to allow me to get my bill online and off, though that would be truly customer-centric. So, until they offer to give ME a portion of the savings from mailing every month, they'll just have to keep licking envelopes.

    Josh.

    --
    How many roads must a man walk down? 42.
    1. Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. by hawkstone · · Score: 4, Insightful

      they refuse to allow me to get my bill online and off

      I do almost all of my bills online. Interestingly, my credit card company allows me to keep getting my bill in paper even though I pay the bill online. (It's not that interesting in that they're not the only ones doing this for me, but judging from this comment, I'm guessing it's not uncommon to disallow it.)

      Here's the problem, though. They keep "offering" to stop sending me my paper bill. First question: why would I want to stop receiving it? It's an automatic reminder that it's due, it leaves me a way to pay by check if I change online banking companies, and it's a nice double-check that they're not screwing me.

      Continuing on: when I choose to stop receiving my paper bills (by a simple mouse click online), they won't allow me to go back to receiving them. I might be able to do so if I sent them a letter or something, but still.... Zero incentive to stop receiving the paper versions.

    2. Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. by digitalvengeance · · Score: 1

      I should clarify.

      I do PAY my bill online by credit card - but can't access itemized details like I can with my paper bill. (I still save them the cost of opening an envelope and taking out a paper check - mostly because I hate writing checks.)

      Josh.

      --
      How many roads must a man walk down? 42.
    3. Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. by hawkstone · · Score: 1

      I wasn't very clear myself, actually. I do receive both an online, itemized statement, as well as the paper one.

      Oh, and yeah, checks suck. They're stupid, too. Seriously.

    4. Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. by Prior+Restraint · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I assume you're joking about the envelope-licking, but one incentive to go paperless is that it reduces their costs, which means they'll be capable of charging you less. These days, it's easy enough to roll any balance to a new card, so those with good credit can demand a lowered APR (case in point: about a year ago, I decided to cancel one of my cards, and told the sexy-voiced woman they transferred me to that another credit limit hike wouldn't make me change my mind, so they offered to permanently drop my APR to 6%; that changed my mind).

    5. Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. by NickDngr · · Score: 1

      So, until they offer to give ME a portion of the savings from mailing every month, they'll just have to keep licking envelopes.

      I think the more likely scenario is that they'll start charging you for a paper bill and offer to let you do it online for free.

      --
      Yoda of Borg am I! Assimilated shall you be! Futile resistance is, hmm?
    6. Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. by twistedcubic · · Score: 1

      Umm, which credit card was this? Please help your fellow man :)

    7. Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. by space_biker · · Score: 2, Interesting
      The savings aren't that great...here's why:
      The cost of sending an invoice includes the cost of paper, printing, processing, and postage.
      1. A little less than half the total cost is postage, per item.
        Your provider gets a discount on bulk mailing. When you choose to go electronic, the bulk discount gets upset and the remaining mailings cost more per item. It's not just the quantity in the mailing, but also the density. Cable companies usually get good density, whereas credit card companies probably don't.
      2. The cost of processing is fairly static. As long as they're processing any mail, they have the same costs: printer/maintenance, warehouse, paper, etc. The less that they have to process, the worse the return on investment. At some point, if there's enough participation in online invoicing, the company will realize a greater savings by outsourcing their mailings (if they don't already). And depending on their contract, less mailing may not mean a linear cost reduction).

      So, you'll probably not see the savings passed on until they can see concrete dollar savings themselves, which won't likely happen until the participation rate goes high enough. But even more likely is that the savings will be spread around more and you'll never see them because they'll be hidden in the delay of price increases on services.

      ...Ew...I think I've been infected by the Marketing Dept...
    8. Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. by Prior+Restraint · · Score: 1

      Oh, yeah. I guess that'd be the polite thing to do.

      AT&T Universal Card

      They also have $0 liability for charges if the card is stolen (most cards opt for the legal limit of $50) and no annual fee. I have the College Student Card, because I was a student when I applied (duh). The only downside to that is they keep sending me all these "hip" ads; they don't seem to realize that people age, and often graduate.

      They're offering new College Student accounts a rate of 13.99% (9.9% for 6 months). I had my card for seven years when I got offered the new rate, and a more or less spotless payment history. I hope this is helpful.

    9. Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. by metrazol · · Score: 1

      My credit card provider (AmEx) had this nifty "Pay online, no more stamps, no more paper bills!" offer, so I took t a chance and started paying my bill online and dumped my paper copy...

      I was a fool to think they would do a good job of it. First, they kept sending me paper bills, ok, fine... then stopped, oh good. Then started again. Great. Then stopped. Uh huh. Then they started coming again. All without me saying anything half the time, so I didn't know if not getting a bill for a month was a good thing (They listened!) or a bad thing (It was stolen!)... ...and then... my due dates kept changing. My statement due date changed three or four times in a year, and not just back or forward a day or two. Two weeks forward or back. One month it's the 17th, another it's the 10th, a third it's the 24th, and so on. I haven't learned my lesson, I know don't get paper bills and pay online, but you have to be DAMN sure you check that website regularly.

      --
      "Life's funny sometimes." "And sometimes it isn't." --Cat's Cradle
    10. Re:I won't give them the satisfaction. by deacon+brown · · Score: 1

      I assume you're joking about the envelope-licking, but one incentive to go paperless is that it reduces their costs, which means they'll be capable of charging you less.

      Doesn't mean they'll actually charge less, will it?
      Didn't think so.

  5. Paperless Billing by calcifer · · Score: 5, Funny

    I bought a doughnut and they gave me a receipt for the doughnut...I don't need a receipt for the doughnut - I give you money and you give me the doughnut, end of transaction. We don't need to bring ink and paper into this. I can't imagine a scenario that I would have to prove that I bought a doughnut. To some skeptical friend, Don't even act like I didn't buy a doughnut, I've got the documentation right here... Oh, wait, I left it at home. In the filing cabinet. Filed under D. For Doughnut. -Mitch Hedberg

    1. Re:Paperless Billing by dcocos · · Score: 1

      The reason they give you the receipt for the doughnut, is theft prevention from the employees. If the employee has to give you the receipt it makes it harder for them to just pocket the $1 for the doughnut. Now perhaps if they paid the employees there enough to be trusted... I'd better stop before I get modded off topic.

    2. Re:Paperless Billing by WoTG · · Score: 1

      And the reason you should take it as a taxpayer is that it prevents them from NOT reporting that as revenue. Thus, they will have to pay their legal share of taxes. Thereby indirectly preventing them stealing from you and me (if we were both in the same country...).
      Maybe I frequent too many mom and pop stores that can and will do this kind of thing...

    3. Re:Paperless Billing by Stubtify · · Score: 1

      Yea cus large corps *never* fudge on their taxs *Cough* ENRON *Cough*. C'mon give the mom and pop's a break its a dollar.

    4. Re:Paperless Billing by Coward,+Anonymous · · Score: 1

      large corps *never* fudge on their taxs *Cough* ENRON *Cough*

      Enron paid more taxes than they should have because they were reporting fraudulent income (they have also asked for a refund because of this).

    5. Re:Paperless Billing by Johnny+Mnemonic · · Score: 1


      What if you said "Hey, I paid for 3 donuts, but you only gave me one!"? By looking at the receipt, they can demonstrate that you in fact only paid for one. Of course, it can't help prove that you only got one donut if you paid for three.

      I think receipts are also handed out so that the donut purchase can be expensed, if you're a business traveler. They would be in the minority, though, so I don't understand why the donut shop makes this the default...

      And why are you eating three donuts anyways? What are you, Homer?

      --

      --
      $tar -xvf .sig.tar
    6. Re:Paperless Billing by TykeClone · · Score: 1

      If you are on a business trip and decided to stop in and have a doughnut for breakfast, the receipt would be useful to get reimbursed.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    7. Re:Paperless Billing by op00to · · Score: 1

      I worked at Dunkin Donuts for a while in High School, and the .95 cent small coffee was my favorite to pocket. People would just toss a dollar at me and run away. Where do you think that dollar went? Ahh, the good old days of low morale jobs...wait.. :(

    8. Re:Paperless Billing by varuul · · Score: 1
      To some skeptical friend, Don't even act like I didn't buy a doughnut, I've got the documentation right here...
      I paid for a doughnut but you didn't provide me with the said doughnut here is my receipt! V/Ruul
  6. No Concern About Your Problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    The only constraint is the amount of time you are willing to spend to correct the problem. It would take you weeks to just bring it to their attention. Not to mention to produce the paper trail and get resolution. The real problem with all the consolidation is the marginalization of the individual consumer. Nobody gives a flying-F these days. The are certainly not concerned about one customers experience.

  7. Digitally Signed Bills by Knetzar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I just with companies would send out digitally signed paperless bills. That way one could keep them on CD and use them to show that a mistake was made (if one was made). Until that happens I will continue to keep paper bills.

    Although now that I think about it, I audit stuff as soon as the bill gets sent to me (ok, so in my world that's a few weeks), if there is a problem I call and fix it right away. Whats the difference between paper and email when I call to say that my bill is wrong? For everything (except for maybe banks) you should have proof in another account, such as to prove you paid your credit card bill, just check your bank statement.
    Ok, now I'm confused about what I should do.

  8. Me by $exyNerdie · · Score: 1

    I file and archive all my paper bills in folders in the filing cabinet for a year or two [for credit card and bank statements(ok, not a bill)].
    So I wouldn't be going to completely paperless billing anytime soon unless I get an option of downloading bills in a format like watermarked PDF softcopy or something like that....

    1. Re:Me by Prior+Restraint · · Score: 1

      I used to do the same thing (actually, to be honest, I used to keep statements going back for seven years). Now, I've cut it down to just one year for my checking account, and don't bother keeping anything else. I'm a fanatic about tracking all my expenditures and payments in GnuCash, so if there's an error, I catch it the same month in which it occurs.

      But, I can see how that approach might not work for everyone.

  9. The problem is the transition... by Alpha27 · · Score: 1

    ...getting used to not receving a paper bill and remembering to look at the emails and not consider them spam. That was my problem initially. Now I'm fine with the process, find it to be a more immediate response. Instead of spending time signing the check, filling the blanks in the form, stuffing the envelope and ensuring all my details are where they should be, licking the stamp, and going to the post office, or out to my mailbox to wait a few days for the check to clear, I just type some fields, enter some data, click ok twice, and it's all done. Gotta love the simplicity.

  10. Statement Life by aaarrrgggh · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My biggest problem with online statements is that they are only kept online for six months. Between doing taxes and reconciling business expenses, that isn't nearly long enough! It doesn't seem logical for that sort of limit.

    Anybody know a credit card company that keeps records for at least 18 months? Citibank is killing me!

    1. Re:Statement Life by Alpha27 · · Score: 1

      why not just copy the data locally? merge the data into a program like quicken or something.

    2. Re:Statement Life by Prior+Restraint · · Score: 1

      Citibank is a massive conglomerate, and so doesn't necessarily do things consistently across the board, but the company holding my MasterCard got bought out by them a couple years ago, and I'm able to get old statements mailed to me free of charge. I asked them for the absolute oldest statements, because I had poor record-keeping habits when I first got the card, but they purge their records after seven years.

  11. Paperless != No Statement by thecampbeln · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I get a PDF statement emailed to me from my Aussi telephone company and save $5/month to boot. Best of all, just have to file the PDF into a network folder and I've got a "hard copy" to refer to.

    --
    "1984" was ment to be a warning, not a guidebook. You hear that Kim Jong-il!? BushCo?!
    1. Re:Paperless != No Statement by ralphb · · Score: 1

      Let's just hope that you don't have a HD problem at the same time you have a billing dispute. Unless you are scrupulous about doing backups, that HD failure could cost you a lot more than just the price of a replacement.

    2. Re:Paperless != No Statement by thecampbeln · · Score: 1

      Besides a fairly decent backup schedule (in this case, even once a month would just about suffice), I've got the original email, so two copies + the backup location(s). Plus... any problems that arise with the billing SHOULD be rectified before you get the next statement anyway, so the "hard copies" are really for historical purposes only. All billing issues are fixed within a week of getting the PDF. Plus, no need to keep track of the dead-tree version.

      --
      "1984" was ment to be a warning, not a guidebook. You hear that Kim Jong-il!? BushCo?!
  12. Paranoia is good by jtheory · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've paranoid about my bills, too (and I save my paper bills, in a stack, for years and years, after paying them online and marking them with the date, amount paid, and payment id). It's useful now and again, like when I look at my phone bill and wonder if it's always been that high.

    And once I got a credit card company to reduce my APR again when I had an extremely valid complaint that the notification sucked (there was no text in any actual bill mentioning the change).

    But I've never dealt with an error. Once my bank screwed something up, but they noticed it themselves and fixed it before I even complained.

    The thing is, I can't quite move to the paperless bills just because they seem so easy to abuse. Even if I save a copy of the email or webpage, an HTML file is child's play to alter, even for a layman; forging or altering a paper bill is tougher.

    I think what we need is electronic bills, with a way to archive a verifiable copy locally. I.e., if it's signed by the company's private key, etc. etc., you can prove you didn't tinker with it.

    We also need a format for bills such that they can be plugged into the standard money management programs directly.

    Is anyone doing this? It would be nice to get rid of those stacks of old bills.

    --
    There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
  13. lazy by jptechnical · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Ever heard of PDF995? At the least you could pdf your statements. There are a number of ways of storing your statements. If you cant get your statements from 6 months ago because you didnt save them it's your fault, not theirs.

    I am lenient in consideration of your low slashdot number ;-)

    --

    Boredom's not a burden anyone should bear.
  14. Lack of Audit Trails by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It depends, but it most cases it's a bad idea.

    Lack of an auditable trail is as much a problem here as in electronic voting. Keep in mind that lack of an audit can work for you against the big guys, even though most of the time it will work in favor the stronger party.

    If you pay online, just pay a lesser amount than is owed. Save the html or screenshot, and edit to indicate full payment. When you get the cut-off-service notice, or the late fee, call and scream and shot and show them the "proof". The most likely outcome is that you still have to pay the full amount, but they don't cut off your service -- basically, a handy way to delay paying if you are willing to be an asshole to a stranger on the phone.

    A similar twist is available with electronic airline tickets. The electronic ticket saves the airline money, but it also provides a way to evade the fraudulantly obtained restriction on transfering tickets. (It was fraudulantly optained as a way to cut out the second market in tickets, on the basis that it would stop hijacking, when none of the hijackers were buying tickets on the second market.) If you buy an e-ticket, you can transfer it to another person by editting the name in photoshop or in html, and printing it out. When you go to the airport, they scan the barcode and it comes up valid, and then they look that your ID matches the name on the ticket.

    For example, if you go to www.att.com/payatt right now, you will find that ATTs method of paying your long distance bill by credit card is down. After you click pay it hangs and eventually gives some error referring to Hummingbird Gateway software. Who cares ? I got my screen shot, and when they cut off my phone around Christmas (I'm already late) I'll be at my parents, and use their phone to ruin some girls day, email an attachement to some annoyed supervisor, and get my phone turned back on before I get home. Hey, they'd fuck me if they could -- I know because they do.

    1. Re:Lack of Audit Trails by base3 · · Score: 1
      If you buy an e-ticket, you can transfer it to another person by editting the name in photoshop or in html, and printing it out. When you go to the airport, they scan the barcode and it comes up valid, and then they look that your ID matches the name on the ticket.

      And if you actually try this, you'll be on the business end of an interrogation from some humorless people with guns. How do you propose to check in, when they look at the name as it is returned from the database, and it doesn't match your ID?

      I agree that the ID requirement was only to prevent the sale of tickets, and not for "security" as we've been told, but this workaround won't work.

      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
    2. Re:Lack of Audit Trails by Johnny+Mnemonic · · Score: 1


      A similar twist is available with electronic airline tickets. The electronic ticket saves the airline money, but it also provides a way to evade the fraudulantly obtained restriction on transfering tickets. (It was fraudulantly optained as a way to cut out the second market in tickets, on the basis that it would stop hijacking, when none of the hijackers were buying tickets on the second market.) If you buy an e-ticket, you can transfer it to another person by editting the name in photoshop or in html, and printing it out. When you go to the airport, they scan the barcode and it comes up valid, and then they look that your ID matches the name on the ticket.

      Yeah, what the hell is with using a printout of my itinerary as some kind of proof of anything? While it's presence is usually required to get through the metal detector, does the TSA not really recognize that anyone with TextEdit and a printer can create their own credentials?

      I think the next time I fly, my itinerary will include a first-class, round trip ticket to the Jovian moons, on Northwest Flight 987. Not that anyone will notice, but it'll give me something to smirk about as I take off my shoes.

      --

      --
      $tar -xvf .sig.tar
    3. Re:Lack of Audit Trails by petard · · Score: 1

      How do you propose to check in, when they look at the name as it is returned from the database, and it doesn't match your ID?

      You haven't flown recently, have you? It is trivial to check in without anyone checking your ID against the database, so long as you have no baggage. Heck, some airlines even offer online checkin from home. If you need to check a bag, though, you're right.

      --
      .sig: file not found
    4. Re:Lack of Audit Trails by base3 · · Score: 1

      I have flown recently, and though I did have baggage, it appeared that those without baggage still needed to obtain boarding passes at the ticket counter, where their ID was checked against the database entry, not the printed e-ticket.

      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
    5. Re:Lack of Audit Trails by base3 · · Score: 1

      Ah-the lightbulb comes on. So you print a boarding pass from home, then alter it to match your ID. It looks like this might be a hole in the protocol as you said, but I'm sure as hell not trying it. The only thing the TSA and others with a stake in making us feel "safe" will fry someone for worse than an actual terrorist act is making them look stupid.

      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
    6. Re:Lack of Audit Trails by petard · · Score: 1

      Exactly. I sure wouldn't try it either. (I'd be worried about two things: 1. The dire consequences of getting caught. 2. As soon as someone demonstrated the willingness/ability to use this hole for any reason, they'd probably close it. Since the ability to print my boarding pass from home has saved me tens of hours, I really don't want that.)

      --
      .sig: file not found
  15. Shit, I forgot my main point by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I forgot my main point. It's this: when you have exploitable and non-auditable systems, there will be those who take advantage of them, and EVEN IF YOU ARE AN HONEST FUCKER you will still pay for the antics of assholes, because the cost gets spread to everyone.

    The solution is not to participate (as much as possible) in systems that are ripe for fraud. Credit card merchant fees and rates are high because it's easy to steal from the system, so you as a member of the system pay the tax. If you have a choice of another system that is more trouble to you, but also has less potential for fraud, then you know that the overhead cost there will be lower.

  16. You just wait.... by HotNeedleOfInquiry · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Until you get hepatits from that doughnut you bought. Then you'll wish you had a receipt so as you can sue the doughnut maker's pants off...

    --
    "Eve of Destruction", it's not just for old hippies anymore...
    1. Re:You just wait.... by zulux · · Score: 4, Funny

      Until you get hepatits from that doughnut you bought. Then you'll wish you had a receipt so as you can sue the doughnut maker's pants off...

      Maby if you left their pants on you woulden't get hepatits as easily.

      --

      Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

    2. Re:You just wait.... by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      Hep C is Sexually transmitted. Hep A comes from the soil or people not washing their hands after shitting.

  17. Don't trust them for reminders to pay by menscher · · Score: 3, Informative

    I've got a credit card (Citibank) and when I went paperless I asked that they email me each month to remind me to pay it. Worked wonderfully for a year or two, and I saved a few dollars on stamps and checks. Then one month they never sent the email, and I didn't pay. They charged a late fee. Fortunately, I log *all* my incoming email, and I could prove they never sent the reminder. They decided to waive the fee THIS time, but if there is a next time I'm responsible. Yeah right. There hasn't been a "next time" yet, fortunately.

    1. Re:Don't trust them for reminders to pay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > Then one month they never sent the email, and
      > I didn't pay. They charged a late fee.

      Well, duh. They were sending emails to you as a service, not out of obligation. Paying your bills on time is ultimately *your* responsibility, not that of the company that extends the credit to you.

    2. Re:Don't trust them for reminders to pay by space_biker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree...Don't rely on the e-mail as a reminder. Just because you don't get the bill, doesn't mean that you don't have to pay. Any company will gladly re-send the bill if you didn't receive it as expected.

      Related to the original question, I work for a local cable co. and developed their e-mail bill notification software. Once the bill is sent we don't really care about keeping a copy ourselves. We record the transactions and are usually able to reproduce a bill that closely resembles the original. Since going to e-mail notification, we needed a way to store a static image of the last two bills. That's only for the customers convenience. As far as auditing goes, the only thing that makes any difference is the transactions. When you get the bill, we have to be able to prove that the items on the bill match the transactions that we have on file. There's too many customers to review them individually, so its always up to the customer to review their bill for accuracy (We've made a lot of mistakes that have cost us money and they rarely get reported... whereas, if you get overcharged, you'll bet we hear about it).
      Oh...and sometimes the paper bills have just as hard a time getting delivered.

    3. Re:Don't trust them for reminders to pay by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      Considering that they refuse to take responsibility for physical mail that doesn't reach you, I'm very surprised that they took responsibility for an e-mail not reaching you. Just because they don't tell you that you owe them money doesn't mean you don't have to pay them. In fact, one time my sister got several parking tickets while driving the old car that I gave to her. They never sent me a notice to pay, but several years later when I went to buy a house, they appeared on my credit report!

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
  18. Paperless rocks. by ffsnjb · · Score: 3, Interesting

    In the last five years I've been able to get down to writing out 2 checks a month (rent and my net connection - time warner sux and I can't pay it online.) Everything else (I have a ton of bills) gets paid online, and I don't get statements sent.

    I went through my filing cabinet last week and rid myself of all past credit card statements (so many cards in 5 years, all at lower and lower rates). When I was done, I had shredded an entire drawer full of garbage. The best part is that I can't fill it back up because I don't get paper sent to me. The only thing I kept were the account closed notices, but only until I order a new credit report to verify closed accounts.

    Save a tree, man. Get rid of the paper (and recycle your shredded stuff!)

    --
    "Why do you consent to live in ignorance and fear?" - Bad Religion
    1. Re:Paperless rocks. by Prior+Restraint · · Score: 1

      This is pretty much my story, too. It took me a week's worth of spare time to shred all that stuff, but it felt pretty good to do it (especially those "convenience checks" my credit cards kept sending me). Anyone need a four-drawer filing cabinet?

    2. Re:Paperless rocks. by tompaulco · · Score: 1

      In the United States, depending on the severity of the audit, they can require you to produce everything going back as far as they like. Luckily most of us will never be subjected to having to produce more than seven years of back data. But I would be very wary of disposing of paper records newer than seven years unless you had archived it electronically somwehere.

      --
      If you are not allowed to question your government then the government has answered your question.
    3. Re:Paperless rocks. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can pay for Time Warner online, I have done it when I had them back in school more than a year ago. Also, depending on who your bank is, you can pay your rent "online" using online bill pay. They will cut the check and send it for you. A lot of banks have this feature for free up to so many transactions per month.

      Check it out.

  19. Encrypted emails? by Kris_J · · Score: 1

    Any company offering encrypted emails as a paperless billing solution? That way I have a copy of everything and they can't change stuff without a trail. I've got a PGP public key around somewhere... ;)

    1. Re:Encrypted emails? by RockyMountain · · Score: 1

      I think you mean "digitally signed", rather than "encrypted".

      (Just being a nitpicker. Sorry.)

    2. Re:Encrypted emails? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it makes perfect sense to have *both* signed *and* encrypted.

    3. Re:Encrypted emails? by Kris_J · · Score: 1

      No, I mean encrypted. As in, they're private information and I don't want anyone along the way to be able to read them. Signed would be handy too.

    4. Re:Encrypted emails? by RockyMountain · · Score: 1

      OK. But I don't grok the connection in your original post between encrypting and "inability to change stuff without a trail". Encryption without signature is deniable -- you can't prove the statement is authentic, so it's useless as a trail. With a signed document, you have proof that the trail is authentic, they can't deny it.

      Original: Any company offering encrypted emails as a paperless billing solution? That way I have a copy of everything and they can't change stuff without a trail. I've got a PGP public key around somewhere... ;)

    5. Re:Encrypted emails? by Kris_J · · Score: 1

      How about the connection between me having a copy of an email on my PC and "inability to change stuff without a trail" -- the problem with most of the paperless billing/accounting systems is that they're all based on you going and viewing a(n encrypted) web page (which is generated dynamically and out of your control), while I believe they should be about receiving an encrypted email.

    6. Re:Encrypted emails? by Rescate · · Score: 1

      "How about the connection between me having a copy of an email on my PC and 'inability to change stuff without a trail'..." Well, there is no connection there. As RockyMountain said, "Encryption without signature is deniable -- you can't prove the statement is authentic, so it's useless as a trail. With a signed document, you have proof that the trail is authentic, they can't deny it."

      So, let's say Company X sends you an encrypted bill like you want. OK, great, nobody was able to read it in transit because of the encryption. You later notice one of these discrepancies you were talking about where they have "changed stuff."

      To prove that Company X changed stuff, you are going to have to prove a difference between the email bill they sent you and the new bill. Now, how are you going to prove that the emailed bill was indeed created by Company X? Maybe Company X will say that you made up the email bill yourself, just so you could bilk them out of some cash.

      If the bill had been digitally signed, you could PROVE the bill had come from Company X. Without this proof, you don't have a trail. Without a trail, Company X's "inability to change stuff without a trail" goes away.

      This all started because you didn't want an encrypted Web page, you wanted an encrypted email instead. So, if you don't care about being able to prove the authenticity of the bill, why not just do a "File/Save" of the Web page? This might give you what you want; you'll have a copy of the bill in HTML form, and it will have been transmitted in an encrypted form, since it is an encrypted Web page. Or, just print it out!

    7. Re:Encrypted emails? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, true. Having a copy saved is a convenience.

      But, if the copy's unsigned, it's not a valid audit trail -- regardless of encryption. You may beleive that it's genuine, but you can never prove it in the event of a dispute. An unsigned encrypted genuine email is indistinguishable from an unsigned encrypted fake.

      A signed email, on the other hand, can't be denied later by the sender. They can't claim you faked it, or a scam artist faked it and emailed it to you. Once they acknolwdge receipt of a payment in a signed email, they can never later claim they didn't get paid. That's a robust audit trail.

    8. Re:Encrypted emails? by Kris_J · · Score: 1
      Jeez people, encrypt it AND sign it. I'm just talking about having a copy in my email inbox so that if the company changes something on their own database I don't have to have printed or saved a web page (that I may not have even visited yet) to be sure that it's changed -- I've got an email.

      I'm sorry I confused you all by simultaneously expressing a desire for privacy.

  20. Some problems by flonker · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My roommate tried going paperless. The telephone company double charged him, and then refused to refund the money. Instead, they gave him a credit for the amount. Problem being, he needed the money they took for food. (He has a nasty habit of letting his bills pile up until they're $300, $400, or more, and only paying when they threaten his service.)

    He also had the gas company claim they didn't receive payment. They did. He showed them proof. Problem resolved, but it was still quite a hassle.

    Long story short, he doesn't do any electronic billing of any sort anymore. (BTW, we're on the south side of Chicago, in case anyone cares.)

    1. Re:Some problems by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My roommate tried going paperless. The telephone company double charged him, and then refused to refund the money. Instead, they gave him a credit for the amount.

      What does that have to do with going paperless? It sounds like the problem was either that he paid both bills, or has stuff deducted from his account automatically. Both of which are bad ideas, especially for someone who is always short on money.

    2. Re:Some problems by duffbeer703 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In other words, if you are an idiot who cannot pay his bills in a timely matter, paperless bills suck?

      Did your friend ever consider that he might have food money if he wasn't paying so many late fees?

      --
      Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
    3. Re:Some problems by /dev/trash · · Score: 1

      You need a new roommate.

  21. paytrust / paymybills by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    i've been using paymybills.com (now paytrust.com for years now.

    I am a rather disorganized person, so i was looking for some service to simplify my management of bills. Online banking services at the time i signed up for paymybills only offered bill payment, not bill receipt. even now, i don't think that anyone else provides such a complete service.

    with paytrust, the beauty (or terror, depending on your viewpoint) is that they receive all of your bills. Bills that are electronically deliverable are handled electronically. those that are not are snail-mailed to them, where they have an army of drones ready to scan them in as jpgs so that you can view them online.

    there are the usual email notifications, scheduling, selective automatic payment of bills( you specify which bills, when, how much, limits, etc, as you would expect). you can also write checks like you would with a bank online payment system.

    yes there are privacy concerns, and it is a little scary to no longer physically recieve bills (but also nice! less mail!) but i wagered that paytrust, a company in the business of providing this service was less likely to screw up than me, someone highly experienced at screwing up bill paying. to my knowledge, paytrust has yet to make any mistake. Something very private doesnt have to be sent to them.

    i cant recommend them more highly.

    1. Re:paytrust / paymybills by ClioCJS · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes, paytrust/paymybills rules. I been using it since the Anthrax attacks. I put my tinfoil hat on and didn't answer the mail at all for 3 months. Got me removed from all the junkmail lists because they thought I was dead. I encourage everyone to try it, it's only $9 a month.

      --
      -Clio
      Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
      Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
    2. Re:paytrust / paymybills by ClioCJS · · Score: 2, Funny
      You can moderate it as funny, but it's all true.

      It actually took me 2 or 3 days of consecutive phone calls to the post office to get my mail started again.

      --
      -Clio
      Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
      Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
    3. Re:paytrust / paymybills by Hard_Code · · Score: 1

      "Got me removed from all the junkmail lists because they thought I was dead."

      I know you are lying because this, sir, will NEVER HAPPEN.

      If you die they hire somebody to dig your grave up and stick shit in it (or on your headstone as the case may be). They probably install a PC down their so you can still get spam and messenger popups.

      --

      It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
    4. Re:paytrust / paymybills by ClioCJS · · Score: 1
      Hahhaha

      I do get junk mail now.. But it took quite awhile to build up, and I don't think I'm up to "pre anthrax" levels.

      Still, I would love to be rid of snail mail entirely.

      --
      -Clio
      Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
      Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
  22. EFT + paper by Saganaga · · Score: 1

    Personally I have almost all of my bills set up to be paid automatically each month via EFT (electronic funds transfer) from either my checking or credit card account.

    But I still get paper for most all of my bills. I guess I just don't quite trust the companies quite enough to go all electronic. Plus, it's actually quite a bit easier to remember to file a piece of paper than it is to remember to download an electronic statement and save it.

    My company wanted to move everyone to online-only pay statements, and I declined, preferring to keep on getting the paper pay statement. One reason was that they only keep the statements online for a year. Well that doesn't help too much when I'm doing my taxes in April and I have a question about a pay statement from the previous March, now does it?

    So that's my position: perfectly happy to use EFT and direct deposit, but still clinging to the old fashioned world of paper statements. At least for now...

  23. not for me, thanks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I like to keep my receipts/bills/etc for a couple years, especially when business-related. I see the following problems with paperless billing:

    1) if I want a permanent copy, I have to print it. so much for "paperless". Things like printing out receipts, or printing digital photos, etc., *seem* like they are "more convenient" but they really suck a lot of time out of your life, one little chunk at a time. So in this case, they won't get done.

    2) If I want to organize a bunch of different statements together, I have to download the tiff/html/screenshot/whatever, and stick it "somewhere" on my hard drive. Or print it. With paper, receipts from different companies are all "compatible", just put them in the same pile

    3) I could theoretically prove that a copy printed by them wasn't tampered, etc., but if it's just bits on my hard drive? No thanks. It's not even digitally signed. Sure this is paranoid, but imagine when *everybody* is getting their data this way, the crooked companies will have a field day. Take a penny here, a penny there..

    4) some companies are so annoying about pushing the paperless billing (and of course once they get your email address you are fair game for lots of junk. At least with the paper credit card receipts, the junk is in the same envelope as the bill.) so I don't want to give them the satisfaction.

    5) it interferes with my "flow" .. I can tell my credit card bills need to be paid because I put them in a particular place on my desk. On the computer, everything is uniform.. my credit card bill notice looks exactly like a penis enlargement spam, a letter from my mom, or a logwatch report. Sure, I could write a Mail rule that turns it purple or something, but is that easier than just *putting it on my desk*? And when I pay the bill, I write the date on the bill, open the file cabinet, and file it away. It's literally faster than trying to "download" the e-bill and file it somewhere.

    I like computers and all but I guess when it comes to some things I'm just a luddite or at least I don't get the point.

  24. print or save your confirmation pages by teridon · · Score: 1

    Save the HTML of the confirmation page, if the site allows it (some scripted pages won't fucking save!); otherwise, print it. But then you're back to paper, and now the cost is yours!

    I have had one problem. I use the free version of sneakemail, which allows 10MB bandwidth per month. One month I exceeded that bandwidth (and failed to realize it) because of freaking spammers spamming the sneakemail address I used to post to usenet. Sneakemail stopped forwarding my email, and I never received some of the reminders to pay my bills. So guess what happened -- those bills didn't get paid because I didn't get a paper reminder either.

    I've since put reminders into Palm Desktop for each bill so that I don't have to worry about that again.

    --
    I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing. -- Thomas Jefferson
    1. Re:print or save your confirmation pages by impluvian · · Score: 1

      Save the HTML of the confirmation page, if the site allows it (some scripted pages won't fucking save!)

      If the page has been rendered in your browser, then you've already got the HTML of the confirmation page on your computer. The trick is getting around the (pretty useless) scripts people use to prevent you 'viewing source', and none of them are hard to defeat.

  25. You have missed the point by SomethingOrOther · · Score: 1

    I have been going the paperless billing route for like 2 years now, and have never had a problem.

    And there my friend, is the very issue
    When it works (as it has with you for two years) everything is fine. Its only when things go wrong you realise having a paper trail is a very good idea.

    FWIW I've had a problem with BT (British Telecom) internet billing a while back (yes I know, stay with me). Being able to whip out paper copies of all me dealings with them definately helpd resolve the problems I had.

    I'm not a ludite, Its just a case of CYA

    --
    Anyone quoted by a reporter knows how little they understand
    Don't believe what you read is the truth.
  26. Paper can have probs too by bscott · · Score: 1

    I once had a cable company (TCI - this was awhile back...) cash a $21 check for $26! My bill was $26, had been for some while, but I was disputing a $5 "administrative fee" and had been paying $21 per month. One month I noticed my previous balance had hit "$0" without the fee having been reversed - checking with my bank, it turned out they'd somehow managed to turn my $21 check into $26, I still don't know how... I eventually got it taken care of, but while over time I moved to direct-debit for all my bills, I never gave TCI the "keys" to my account.

    Nowadays, I'm married and recently moved to a new city. My wife put us on direct debit for all our bills, and within 2 months we were fighting auto insurance, cellphone AND satellite TV providers over billing errors...

    --
    Perfectly Normal Industries
  27. What about a Combo? by fuzzybunny · · Score: 2, Interesting


    I have my account with the Swiss post office, which works pretty nicely (although you could insert any Swiss bank in its place--bank transfer numbers are standardized and inter-bank payments don't cost extra.)

    There are some regularly occurring, fixed-amount bills (gym, rent, etc.) for which I have standing payment orders. Anything occasional or variable, I get a paper bill in the mail, with a payment slip.

    This is about 1/3 of an A4 piece of paper, containing recipient, amount, and payer, as well as bank info. It has a long-ass numerical code (about 25 numbers) which, along with the recipient account, I have to type into my online banking page.

    When I've paid a bill, I just write 'paid date xyz' on the slip and archive it for 2 years--works a charm. The post office also sends me a paper printout of my account activity every month.

    It's a great system, it sounds like it's a lot of effort, but I can pay my bills once a month within about 20 minutes time, including archiving paperwork. And I have both electronic and tangible means of tracking my payments.

    --
    Cole's Law: Thinly sliced cabbage
    1. Re:What about a Combo? by dago · · Score: 1

      Am also a swiss post user, and to be complete, they have also a online bill system that interface for regular bills, currently only a few companies (phone, railways, ...).

      They also offer a special direct payment method for websites.

      --
      #include "coucou.h"
  28. Check out Paytrust by override11 · · Score: 1

    I use Paytrust.com. They work by having you change your billing address so your bills actually get sent to a PO box (they are large enough they were given their own zip code so far) They scan your bills in and send you an email when they arrive, telling you how much the bill is for and to whom it needs to be paid, as well as the due date. You sign in online (they have a signature on file) and click on 'pay' (or you can view your scanned bill online) and they pay the bill either with EFT (my capitol one goes EFT) or by sending a paper check for you. They also keep records, so you can see at a glance what you have paid in the past, and they let you do queries by payee, etc. It costs 12 bucks a month, but imho its totally worth it! :)

    --
    No I didnt spell check this post...
    1. Re:Check out Paytrust by ClioCJS · · Score: 1

      I use PayTrust and it only costs $9/month.

      --
      -Clio
      Karma: Bad (mostly from not giving a fuck)
      Blog: http://clintjcl.wordpress.com
  29. Do not give them access to your account by zero_offset · · Score: 1
    It depends on what you mean by "paperless billing."

    Many companies are offering the ability to directly debit your account automatically each month. If that's what you're talking about, you DO NOT want this.

    The problem is, there is very regulation of this. I believe there have been related slashdot stories which probably have better details than I'll be able to provide, but in a nutshell, once you give them access to your account -- wether it's a cable company billing you for services, a bank auto-paying against a car loan, a mortgage, or a credit card, or an employer direct-depositing your pay-check, all bets are off when you sign that paper. You are giving them an open checkbook and simply trusting them to withdraw or deposit the correct amounts.

    In my area, so far only ONE company I deal with (the electric company) has offered what I consider "true" paperless billing, which is that they simply send you a notification of your bill, or make your current billing information available online. This would be acceptable since YOU are still in control of your account. They don't get paid until you say they do, and they get only what you send to them.

    However, as others have already discussed exhaustively, you're then trusting them to play by the rules, and you're trusting a non-physical medium. I personally don't trust either well enough yet. They can keep sending me paper for now.

    --

    Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005

    1. Re:Do not give them access to your account by zero_offset · · Score: 1

      Duh. That should be "very little" regulation of this.
      As in, I have done "very little" previewing of the previous post.

      --

      Slashdot quality declines as the number of hot grits posts decreases. - Provolt's Law, Apr-09-2005

    2. Re:Do not give them access to your account by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I guess this depends on where you're coming from. In the UK, where it's quite normal for many people to pay bills by direct debit, every bank that uses the scheme provides the direct debit guarantee, which is a simple, effective and necessary safeguard for the system to be trustworthy. People do occasionally get overcharged for whatever reason, but the guarantee ensures they should suffer no long term ill effects, and I know of no-one who ever has.

      'Course, it's much easier to prove that you've been overcharged if you've got a nice bill printed on utility company letterhead that disagrees with what left your account, and for this reason alone, my bills are all still the old-fashioned variety.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  30. Rules for electronic payment: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    1) A biller never takes money from my account without my explicit authorization (i.e. no automatic debits) for any variable bill (e.g. utility, credit card). Those, I'll pay electronically iff I can log on and authorize payments individually (e.g. $123.45 to ABC Gas Company).

    2. I don't allow automatic ACHs out of my account for fixed bills unless there's an incentive (e.g. 25 basis points off the interest rate for U.S. federal student loans).

    3. I don't forgo paper statements unless I'm provided a discount reflecting the savings in postage, infrastructure, staff, etc. This has never happened, so I still get my statements on paper. If a company wants to provide electronic statements in addition with no discount, I'll accept them.

    4. I never pay a company anything for electronic bill presentment or ACH payment. This is even more galling than banks charging "convenience fees" for ATMs that have allowed them to lay off legions of tellers.

  31. CRON is your friend by wowbagger · · Score: 1

    CRON, or some other scheduling software, is your friend - set up a cron job to remind you to check your bill at T-2 days or so.

    If you haven't received a mailing from them, you can check online and pay.

    --
    www.eFax.com are spammers
  32. Print to postscript/pdf by nuggz · · Score: 1

    Just print it to postscript, then convert to pdf.

    I do this for all sorts of documentation that I fear may not be around later (news story archives)
    Easy, readable, electronic.

  33. Do it through your bank. by raygundan · · Score: 1

    Don't sign up for online bill payment through the individual companies. That way you don't have much control, and it would be a huge fight if their records were incorrect.

    I use firstib.com, and they've been fantastic. They are set up to receive e-bills from anybody set up to do that, which turned out to be something like 3/4 of all my bills. The bills show up, and I get a notification, and go in and manually pay them. (You can set it up automatically, but I prefer to do it myself)

    This way, if a company fudges a bill, or charges you a late fee incorrectly, or loses a payment, the bank has records and staff to deal with it. I have had all three of those problems, and firstib has resolved them all for me with just a quick note.

    Lean on your bank. They give you a hedge and a "paper trail" against screwups by the companies billing you.

  34. problem with AT&T Cable- now comcast by outcast36 · · Score: 0

    The first month I paid AT&T with automatic bill pay from my bank they said they didn't recieve payment.

    I checked my bill pay records, of course they sent it. I called AT&T, they said I had to fax copies of the payment confirmation, date, amount .... They acted like I was lying.

    I go jumping through their hoops. In the middle, my cable flicks back on. I guess they saw that I did pay after all. I called back just to clear everything up. Then the customer "service" people acted like I was calling to be a nuisance. Yeah, I call customer service to be put on hold every month just to make sure everything is working.

    --
    Technology Consulting & Free Downloads
  35. Paperless billing = nearly unprovable payment by phillymjs · · Score: 1

    Nothing says, "You did so receive payment for that bill, you fucktards!" quite like a cancelled check.

    I'm all for automating every aspect of my life, but the one exception I make is bill payment. I just don't like the idea of giving many entities the ability to remove funds from my checking account. They can assure me all they want that it will never happen without my consent, but I'm not buying it.

    I've even had problems with monthy charges to my credit card-- a couple years ago Cingular was supposed to put my cellphone bill on my credit card automatically every month, which happened with no problems for a while. Then they stopped automatically charging me AND started tacking on hefty late fees for nonpayment (and no, my CC on file had not expired or been declined, Cingular just stopped putting the transaction through). After the second time I had to call up to yell at them about this, I went right out and got a new cellphone from AT&T, who have given me no problems at all. Cingular was pathetically desperate to keep my business, too, it took me 20 minutes to convince the CSR that I absolutely, positively wanted to sever my business relationship with them no matter what they offered me to stay.

    ~Philly

  36. I agree completely by smalloy · · Score: 1

    We've been using PayTrust for 3+ years now, and it's great. You can set up recurring payments, rules for paying incoming bills (always pay full amt, pay as long as it's under $X, don't automatically pay). They notice and email you when they think you've not received a bill. They (can) email you when a bill's about to be overdue to remind you. They can draft checks and EFTs from multiple accounts (which also means you can easily change banks). I can have a check cut and mailed to anyone online. We buy maybe 1 book of stamps a year now!

    At the end of the year we can buy ($20) a CD with all our scanned-in bills from the previous year. And in 3 years, PayTrust hasn't screwed up on us once. YMMV, obviously.

    Now if they'd only receive and scan in my bank & brokerage statements...

  37. Problems with Cancelled Credit Cards by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've had two instances where banks sent me a new card and had subsequent problems with my online account.
    The first was Citibank who sent me a new card with a different number (for no real reason...) and I couldn't access the web site at all. While trying to log in I got a message that the account was closed. After that got resolved, I couldn't look at previous statments.
    The other time was after Chase sent me a new card after fraud was detected on my previous card. I could log on but again I couldn't review past statments. Also, the main account summary page acurately reflected my last payment, but the page listing payments does not.

    And don't get me started on Discover Card's web site. It's incredibly unreliable. I tried doing a cash transfer, got half way throuh and kept getting 404's. Apparently their web-farm is way overloaded. I called customer service to do the transfer and mentioned the web site. The rep said people are constantly complaining about it. I only use it to check my balance, and I still have problems logging in.

    -Posted Anonymously since I'm revealing where I have bank accounts.

  38. Re:Your worries are without merit -- bzzzzt by mikehoskins · · Score: 1

    Danger Will Robinson! In YOUR case (anecdotal evidence, of course) YOU have had no problem. However, there ARE problems that people really HAVE encountered, many of which took a long time and a lot of effort to correct. Remember, with money, you are guilty until proven innocent.

    Note this: many online billing systems and automatic payment systems, allow the companies you have registered with, to add to or take away money at will.

    Not having a paper trail may be very bad, if there is identity theft, someone steals your bill pay password, there is a transaction you haven't authorized, or if there are software bugs in any system, whether it's your bank's fault or it's a vendor's fault, etc. (Oh yeah, I forgot, all financial code is bug free, right?!?!?)

    After many years, my wife and I just started using it for a few bills, but not without plenty of research and apprehension. We do thoroughly screen every transaction and keep all bills and receipts. However, we were like that before automatic bill pay, since paper transactions aren't perfect, either.

    So, be aware and don't trust your money to anyone or any institution that even smacks of being shady, in the least. Again, keep a copy of all transactions.

  39. DO NOT GO PAPERLESS w/ SPRINT by oiarbovnb · · Score: 1

    Sprint is notorious for misbillings, and it is never in your favour. I would not recommend going paperless if you use Sprint for any of your communication needs. It is much easier for them to sneak in a $150 charge for whatever... Always look over your sprint bill because they suck ass and try and steal money from you...

    1. Re:DO NOT GO PAPERLESS w/ SPRINT by scribler · · Score: 1

      Actually, I found a mistake with SprintPCS this month, but having a paper bill would not have helped me. I paid online and they then credited the payment back to me. (They said my account was closed. Very odd, since I am still using it.) I noticed that they were saying that I owed more than my online bill said I owed. When I contacted them, they explained what happened. I did complain that I was not notified of the credit when I have an email address online. Said it wouldn't happen again, we'll see. The short of it all, is that depending on a paper statement is a big mistake. So, I recommend going paperless because it will save a few trees.

  40. Well, as long as we're on this topic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Checkfree.com

  41. Printed Electronic Statements often not "proof" by Kevin+Stevens · · Score: 1

    I love electronic statements. Stockpiling paper is a pain to me, cluttering, and just outright annoying. Really what I would like to see though is more of them in a standard, exportable format to make saving them easier.

    However, I have had problems with all the electronifying of my statements. I tried to get a mortgage a few months ago. I asked the loan officer if I could email her the html/pdf's of my bank and pay statements. nope. we need paper. So I curse a little at how behind the times they are, but figure no big deal, Ill fax it. They said faxing is fine to get the ball rolling but to get 'approval' we need the actual copies. Me, again cursing their archaicness, then sends them my printed out forms. I get a call about a week and a half later saying this isnt good enough, they need it on the actual company letterhead. I explain to them my statements are now online only, yada yada, thats the best I can do. they say no loan fo' you unless we get real copies. So I had to jump through hoops to get the bank and payroll service to send the lender "real" copies. A major major PITA since they were reluctant to do so (and you have to deal w/ typical call center droids who mentally blue screen once you ask them about something not on the script- and this service was new for both companies, so it wasnt on the script). Also keep in mind, this was in a redhot real estate market. No one believes you when you say "Really everything is fine, theyre just not approving the mortgage because of paperwork", and the seller was getting antsy and wanted to go w/ another buyer. I assume this will change in the future as electronic only statements become more ubiquitous.

    Also, since I no longer get that nice piece of paper in the mail saying "PAY ME!", I tend to forget to pay my bills. Most services allow auto payment via debit/credit, but the mortgage company (yeah same mortgage as above, though a different lender- the original bank sold it off) does not, and though I have a pretty comfortable cushion most of the time, I still like to make sure a bill that large and important is done at my discretion anyway.

  42. Citibank paid me (but offline not going away) by RobertB-DC · · Score: 1

    I think the more likely scenario is that they'll start charging you for a paper bill and offer to let you do it online for free.

    That would seem to be the case, except that most of the Real World doesn't know .pdf from PCP, and will throw a fit if someone tells them they'll get charged extra for paying bills the way they've always done. Once again, Neo-Luddism is a Good Thing.

    In the other direction, I *did* get a $5 credit from Citibank for switching to paperless. It was no problem -- I'd been paying online for more than a year before I decided to go for it. The only catch was that I had to stay paperless for ~6 months before you got the credit. It was a token amount -- less than 5% of what I was paying in interest (ouch!), but it's the thought that counts.

    I went paperless with Verizon Wireless for a different reason -- I was getting 20+ pages of billing each month, and got tired of shredding it. Interestingly, the wireless co's seem to charge extra for "detailed billing" -- but cellular is "new tech", so there's no "way it was done before" to get in their way.

    On the other hand, back a few years ago, I tried going paperless with a bill -- don't remember which. Back then, though, I didn't have a budget and racked up mucho late fees by forgetting to pay on time. Paperless is cool, but if there's *any* chance you'll forget to pay, avoid paperless like teh plague.

    --
    Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
  43. Also consider mail theft / identity fraud too... by ii-v-i-head · · Score: 1
    I am currently experiencing first hand mail theft and associated credit and bank fraud. This has convinced me that, while the big companies are not exactly to be trusted, the result of a paper correspondence method, in my case , has been much worse.

    It will probably mean saving more paper receipts in the long run though. A fair trade-off in my situation.

  44. Pays personal checks as well. by Johnathon_Dough · · Score: 1
    Bank of America gives you online banking with your checking account, and the nicest feature is that you can pay any source. This is because they are sending checks, not making electronic payments in your name.

    This has allowed me to go completely online (at least on my end, they are still analog banking) for my banking, this includes checks to my land lord, as well as my father.

    Although, I still get all my bills mailed to me, but that is solely for the reminder factor, with out that stack of mail, how would i know when to pay?

    --
    If you are one in a million, then there are six thousand people who are just like you.
  45. Experience tells me to not go paperless. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Look at it this way:

    Companies like to assume their customers are liars/thieves and are lying to weasel out of having to pay.

    Companies will always believe the incorrect data in their computers rather than the truth you speak when you call them to complain.

    Since the burden is always on you to prove them wrong, having paper they generated to back up your assertions is vital. Going paperless deprives you of this ammunition.

    Paperless won't truly work until companies stop this "the customer is always lying" attitude.

  46. I use paytrust -- for the records by one-egg · · Score: 1
    I switched to Paymybills/Paytrust (E*Trade just divested them) several years ago, after an incident where I needed to produce a 6-month-old credit-card statement and couldn't. They archive everything for a year. At the end of the year, they charge me something like $20 to get a CD with images of all my bills. If I need a copy, I can print it out. So far, nobody has whined about forgery possibilities (with modern computer tools, I could forge any paper bill just as well anyway).

    I don't want to say that Paytrust is perfect. Their standard response to my complaints about a bad UI was "it works like X". Really? Gee, I hadn't noticed. They have a nice all-electronic method of bill delivery, but using it would require me to establish individual passworded accounts with each biller. Not my idea of convenience.

    There are also occasional troubles because my billing address is in South Dakota. I bought some tickets via Ticketmaster, and off my tickets went to Sioux Falls. Not helpful for getting into the theater. :-) But Paytrust just forwarded them to me, and I had the time to wait, so all was well.

    All in all, it's been a great solution. I don't have to type complicated codes or write checks. Most of the work is remembering to occasionally copy the payment amounts into my checkbook so I can balance it.

  47. Selection by base3 · · Score: 1

    I wonder what printing your pass from home does for your chances of being a "selectee." And if you fly an airline regularly, you know what that looks like, and could easily alter the boarding pass to remove the scarlet S's or whatever that particular airline uses. If you got called on it, you could say that's the way it printed--assuming you didn't leave any blatant tracks, it'd be difficult to prove intentional alteration in that case. Still wouldn't try it, though :).

    --
    One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
  48. Little did I know... by BMIComp · · Score: 1

    Well, I payed with online billing once, and little did I know, I was signing myself up for paperless billing! I gave them my e-mail address that I use for non-personal correspondence, and I've been locked out of that mailbox for a while now, so I have been recieving bills and didn't realize it until the electric company sent me a disconnect notice!

  49. My solution by kalislashdot · · Score: 1

    This is really not "paperless", but in the end it is.

    At this point I want a paper bill to come in the mail. I then scan it then PDF it. I then have multi page PDFs that print out nicely. I then have the bills shreaded and recycled.

    All but 2 of my bills have auto-payment to debit/credit card. I have them go against my credit card then pay off the cr4edit card each month. I would do it against my debit card (aka checking account) but then I would be affraid of a bill hitting it with not enough money in there. Billing the the credit card solves that problem.

    I also have a speadsheet that lists which bills are paid with what paycheck, so that way I do not miss any bills. When Iget the paper bill usually it has already been baid, either automatically or becasue it was on my speadsheet. I find things like Quicken way too complicated.

    So at the end of each month I pay 2 credit card (online), write my rent check and car payemtn check and pave about 15 PDFs all nicely sorted in folders. I think it is a very good system.