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Washington Post Covers iPod Battery Ruckus
An anonymous reader sent in a link to 'Battery and Assault: When His iPod Died, This Music Lover Tackled Apple. Stay Tuned.' in the Washington Post. The article (good reading even if you're familiar with the situation) has Apple reps being rather callous about the issue - I think it's a fairly reasonable assumption that if you spend several hundred dollars on a gizmo, it shouldn't be "disposable". A replacement battery for my cell phone cost $10; one for my cordless phone cost $10; Apple is presumably making a good deal of money on their $99 replacements.
And it makes you wonder if there won't be a typical Apple result. The company is innovative, no doubt, but always struggles with details. A lower cost alternative with better tech is going to take over this market--and to some extent, already has, no matter how necessary the IPod is to our "yoga tech" culture. Who writes this stuff, anyway?!?
And also void your warranty in the process. If I'm going to spend $400+ on an MP3 player (hint: I'm not) I'm going to make damn well sure it lasts me as long as the warranty and/or AppleCare covers.
Apple is presumably making a good deal of money on their $99 replacements
at least $50, including the service fees. that's how much the battery (sans installation) costs here.
pirates
PPPS. Anecdotal evidence doesn't help the people whose batteries HAVE failed.
A replacement battery for my cell phone cost $10; one for my cordless phone cost $10;
Both your cell phone battery and your cordless phone battery are, presumably, removable. Now, maybe Apple made a mistake in not making their battery removable (but it sure makes the unit smaller), but regardless, there is a lot more effort involved in replacing the battery for the iPods.
In addition to this, I'd like to know where michael gets his cell-phone batteries; my last replacement would have run me $40 if I hadn't purchased "insurance" when I got the phone that covered dead batteries as well.
Perhaps there were more than one or two conversations they learned about through research but didn't report about.
This is slanted *against* Apple as much as most Apple zealots are slanted *for* Apple, and it will all balance out in the end. Too many Applefans are prepared to push their favorite company to everyone, facts/figures be damned, and when something like this comes out, somehow the world is 'against' Apple. It's ridiculous.
And yes, I own a Mac.
creation science book
We had the lead Apple battery engineer speak at Carnegie Mellon a month or two back and he stated that the charge cycle for their portables totalled out at about 500 charges.
If those guys used their iPod for 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, that comes out to about 546 charge cycles in an 18 month period. That also doesn't account for poor battery usage by the user (half charges, etc.)
The guys who use their iPod all day long everyday should expect the batteries to die after a shorter period. If I ran my car 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, and then complained when the engine blew up I'd be laughed at by the dealer.
Dealer: "You put how many miles on it in 18 months?"
Me: "220,000. Why did it die so soon?"
Dealer: "Because you're an idiot."
And in spite of any fancy regulation requirements, lithium-ion isn't exactly rocket-science. I doubt the circuitry is that expensive. Design a blob to do it right, and make lots of them...
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Having a wide variation in performance (i.e. You vs. me vs. others) is another sign of poor engineering. Actually, it speaks directly to quality.
You may resume your vigorous defense of, um, well, nothing.
"If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
Because it takes pricing and control out of the hands of the businesses that depend on their products having batteries. If there's a standard form of battery, then you have interoperability, and you then don't have vendor lock-in, and then the business loses out because the users are buying their batteries from somewhere else...
He apparently did that
...broke his ipod, and bought a new one...
What a dumbass. He bought another anyway... An experience like that would force me to look elsewhere. I'm sure apple wishes they had more customers like that guy. Spray paint campaign aside, he bought 2 ipods and will probably never use anything but apple anyway.
"And soon enough, Casey Neistat went back to the Apple boutique and bought a new iPod for $400, which, he says, 'is totally unfair.' He took it back to the office and showed it to his brother, and they vowed to find a way, Casey says, 'to get back at them.'"
If you want to get back at a company that screwed you over, don't turn around and give them $400.
It's an operating system, not a religion.
This is actually a quote from the article. I guess Apple has nothing to do with expensive branding and corporate identity.
What world am I living on?
Waiting for ad.doubleclick.net...
Common guys. This is one of the strongest cases of placing undue blame that I have seen. Manufacturing isn't perfect, and it seems that the number of people having their batteries fail at 18months is the minority. Why not just blame Sony while we're at it for inconsistant manufacturing or testing of their batteries, after all that's who makes the Li-Ion battery found in the iPod line.
Blaming Apple's engineers or design staff is at most a reach, because they didn't manufacture every piece of the iPod, they spec'd out the available technologies and then put them together with some creative hardware and software to (undeniably) create the best mp3 player currently available.
Do we see people blaming Maxtor for every hard drive (and it's quite a few) that fails after 18 months, espeically since their warrenty now only covers the first 12? How about the fact that 1 out of about 10 Maxtor drives is either DOA or dies within the first month? (Yes, I'm using a small sample size of my and friends purchases of aroud 14 Maxtor hdds in the last 2 years)
If you're buying a product with a 1 year warrenty, realize that you might just have to replace it after that time, or repair it. Hell $99 for a new iPod battery? Sounds like a good deal to me. I'd gladly pay Apple $49 to make sure I don't fuck up my iPod installing a $50 battery. This is a case of Apple finding a need of their customers that managed to get some of the shorter life batteries (and eventually the other customers) and responding.
The iPod video idiots and Washington Post are the ones who have been irresponsible in this case. Taking company policy from peons in the service department (of course they're going to say you have to buy a new iPod back _before_ Apple Corporate got the battery replacement in the pipeline) is not responsible reporting, nor is reporting on company policies that have been outdated by 6 months to a year.
**AA: a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes
The iPod's battery is one of the main reasons I've held off on buying one. I refuse to buy a portable music device that doesn't take AA or AAA batteries, since I need to be able to swap in a fresh battery while on the go. (Of course, my Minidisc player gets 40 hours of play time from a single AA battery, and it's not often that I go that long between recharging...)
Also, as noted, when AA rechargeables begin to crap out, they are cheaply and easily replaced.
Of course, it may be the case that the iPod draws too much power to subsist on AA's. To this I say: if Sony can design their Minidisc players to use AA's, and Apple cannot do the same for iPods, then Apple ought to hire some better engineers.
An Apple computer (or product) may be damned expensive, but it is relatively unique, and would take quite a bit of effort to build an equal product cheaper. But I'm talking about an adapter cable. There is nothing unique about this cable, except its price. The apple cable and another brand perform exactly the same... for 1/10th the price...
---
Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
Don't you think the author was aware of the irony, and assumed the readers would be too?
To be honest, I don't think you really know if it's a production/parts vs. engineering problem.
I suggest that because they have been able to correct SOME battery status/recharge problems with firmware updates that the problem is most likely engineering.
"If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
The real alternative from the corporate dominated, expensive label, universe is any free Unix (*BSD, Linux, whatever) on cheep hardware. I'm too poor to pay an extra 10-15% for "Apple Engineering", or (more realistically) the Apple Image(TM).
Again, I'm not trying to flame or troll here, I do know that Apple generally produces very high quality products, and I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't use Apple, I just can't see how they got a "rebel" image...
"Mission Accomplished" -- George W. Bush May 1, 2003
Actually the cells are a standard format, it's usually the packing and layout that is specific to the laptop. Since the packaging costs nothing as it's just plastic and metal it does n't effect their bottom line, plus there will always still be demand for even a 5 year old laptop battery.
Doesn't mean it's not their responsibility.
[SIG] Remember Mattel handheld games?
I've had an ipod for 2 years now. I use it so much, that I tend to have my battery lose power by the end of the day. When I'm at home, i usually have it hooked up and charging. Am I the one out of a million or something?
--
"I'm not bright. Big words confuse me. But Wanda loves me and that should be enough for you." - Cosmo
I have to agree with your complaints, but I don't think they're that important to Apple. After all, how many other people have come close to making a similar device?
All the other devices have lame interfaces, poor displays, and require lots of button pushing. No-one has approached Apple's interface for the iPod. I don't like the iPod, personally, but can recognize it's the best. I don't like the chrome back (why can't it all be in the one material?) which, on my friends iPod, looks all smudgey and dirty from finger prints, and I think this whole 'snow white' phase is going to fall on its ass within the next couple of years anyway. Colored/textured iPods (a la the old iMac) might be a hit.
If there was something designed a little like the iPod (i.e. easy to use, nothing fancy, clean and simple, not 100s of buttons) for around the $200-$300 mark with, say, recording, and a 20-40GB hard drive, they'd sell like hot cakes.
As it is, the iPod sells like hot cakes because it's the only viable choice without getting something that's ugly and angular as fuck, and with the world's shittiest interface. Apple knows this, and their computers operate on the same principle. They might not be perfect, but they're better. (Come on, OS X is not the best we could be doing right now, but it's better than the alternatives)
Owning an iPod is going to be like a chick owning a Chanel purse. Cool, and expensive, and they can keep stuff in it.. but they need to keep changing it every couple of years to stay 'in fashion' and to stop it wearing out.
mogorific carpentry experiments
It's not Apple's battery, it's Sony's, and it has nothing to do with the DMCA--which as the name, Digital Millennium Copyright Act, implies, concerns copyright, not patents. I don't like it any more than you do, but at least understand what you're criticizing.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
Unless the reviewer can come up with recommendations for an all-in-one alternative to the iPod, it's a meaningless list. He appears to have simply taken several aspects of the iPod, and then individually come up with alternatives for each aspect. (without applying the same cited standards to those alternatives) Which would suggest in turn (if you follow that logic trail) that it takes 5 different other players to become superior to one iPod.
Not that I think that's the case, just that I think it was a poorly-written article.
Bush: He's Liberal in all the wrong ways.
Given that analogy, I'd rather be thirsty.
That's a stupid argument. Your cordless phone battery is probably NiCd or NiMH. Ditto for your cell phone battery. Those are old technologies and our dirt cheap at this point. The iPod battery is a Lithium-Polymer, which is much more expensive, even with wholesale prices. Is Apple making a profit? Probably. But the price of your cordless phone battery has nothing to do with it.
Also, keep in mind that Apple is charging for installation. The battery is only $50 (as evidenced by the price you pay from suppliers), so $49 is for shipping and installation. Now, a hard drive is easy to install, right? So ask CompUSA how much they'll charge for installing one? Much more than it's worth, I'm sure.
There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
My Archos Recorder works great with NiMH. 4 AA's and I am good. And when they go bad after about 500 charges...I can pony up another 6 bucks and be good to go.
Bottom line: ANYTHING with un-attachable/proprietory batteries is a BAD thing and should be boycotted. Look at the difference between most Ipaq's and the Dell Axims. You can pay 700 clams for an Ipaq with a battery that is not really that easily replacable...Or you can buy an Axim that has an easily detachible battery. Buy a couple extra and don't worry about running out of juice.
This stuff is not desposible razor priced...we are talking electronics between $300 - $900 dollars...the consumer deserves better.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
Right. I imagine that the battery itself wasn't the entire problem, anyway. Most likely the guy didn't take care of how he was treating it. Lithium Ion are the best batteries in my opinion, but they still can be damaged by overheating or overcharging, as well as random failure.
Dan's Data had a link to this site not long ago about it.
At least you recognize that it's a failure to understand on your part.
Devices like PDAs, MP3 players, and cell phones often push the boundaries of how much can be squeezed into the smallest amount of volume. Engineers have to make sacrifices because a desirable feature (such as a user-servicable battery compartment) may be mere millimeteres from fitting. Sad, but true.
User-servicable batteries come in several different form factors, but they tend to be blocky or cyllindrical. If you provide an opening for battery replacement, this adds size from the thickness of the compartment walls and the kind of connectors used. The compartment door must be durable...better to not have one at all than to have one that is flimsy.
The iPod battery is a thin, flat rectangle that is about a third as big as the face of the iPod itself. Choosing this unique battery configuration apparently allowed them to squeeze in other components, with the tradeoff being that they apparently felt that they couldn't make it user-servicable without sacrificing the durability of the iPod as a whole, and/or without sacrificing something else.
You might be able to better visualize the engineering constraints by looking at the innards of an iPod
If they could have provided the capacity and features of the iPod without making such a sacrifice, we would probably see more competing products with the same features and capacity.
From my perspective, the competitors aren't even close. It wouldn't surprise me if their refusal to make a similar tradeoff were part of the reason.
Take a look at a GBA SP. They're about as tiny as a portable game system can be, yet Nintendo (the Apple of consoles) still managed to make easy to replace the li-ion battery. This is either a short sited design, a deliberate disposiable design, or a form over function design. None of those reflect very well on Apple, IMO. Then again I bought an Archos. Cheaper, easily replaced cheaper batteries (NiMH), open source firmware, and a whole lot easier to hack.
The consumers DID revolt. Thats why most people are today running PCs. Furthermore people will eventually revolt against high priced HP, Dell, etc. products in favor of just as good off-brands. Go into Radio Shack and look at the selection of telephones and imagine that being the PC industry of the future.
One thing Apple has to offer (for now anyway) is the fact that they make (or at least have made to their specifications) the entire package, from hardware to OS to many of the basic applications, including (as with iPod, and iTunes) significant peripherals and online content. Nobody else can make that claim for now, be it Microsoft, Dell, HP, nobody. As a result, Apple can get away with charging a premium price for every item in their product line.
As a fan of Apple, I HOPE they have an exit strategy however, because I don't think the party will last much longer. With everyone copying Apples' successful marketing efforts and then chopping large percentages off the cost Apple is in the position of having to hit a home run every time they step up to the plate (or almost) and I am concerned that as the cost of computer components approach zero, and with many software costs already at zero they will not be able to compete.
If no US companies get a clue soon I would not be surprised if we end up buying computers of the future from companies like Sony, Panasonic or Gold Star at $75 a pop and throwing them away whenever they don't match our color scheme. In that world, companies like Apple and Microsoft have no place, companies like Intel become more like Texas Instruments, only something you know about if you break the seals on your computer and look at the components with a magnifying glass.
After having paid top dollar for three incrementally newer Palm Pilots in a row I finally figured out that the "trouble with this picture" was me. When I saw the iPod I knew that one of these days I'd have one, but not for more than about $100. I'm still waiting. I think a lot of other people will too. At some point I think it would be worth Apples consideration to just flood the market with iPods at their cost plus a small percentage. If you could buy the whole thing for $75 then nobody would complain about it not having replaceable batteries.
From: das@doit.wisc.edu
e du/
Subject: iPod story
Date: December 20, 2003 6:18:37 PM CST
To: stueverh@washpost.com
I'm very disappointed with your iPod story, for several important reasons. If you only read one of the responses you get about this story, read this one:
1. Apple began offering the battery replacement program as early as November 14, before the ipodsdirtysecret.com domain name was even registered (November 20). While coincidentally close, Apple released both the AppleCare Protection Plan for iPod and the battery replacement program BEFORE anyone had ever seen the videos, and indeed before anyone at Apple or otherwise knew anything about the Neistat brothers' video. A small - very small - amount of research would have revealed this. (Also, the battery program was in the works since at least June.) The reason this is important is that you make it seem that it's only because of the brothers' tactics that Apple responded, the implication being they otherwise wouldn't have. That is false.
2. Since the battery replacement program - that the Neistat brothers themselves say is "fair" in their statement - was already in effect when they rolled out the video, they KNOWINGLY let almost a half million people see the incorrect and inaccurate video without telling them the truth: that Apple DID offer a battery replacement program. I'm sure they felt like their little video would be essentially negated since Apple already released a replacement program, so they went ahead with it anyway.
3. ALL lithium ion batteries fail after a period of time. ALL. The fact that the iPod's battery is not user replaceable, i.e., is a custom form factor carefully engineered into the product, is one of the things that makes it so small, and thus, so desirable...tradeoffs.
4. The Dell DJ's lithium ion battery is also not user-replaceable, and Dell officially has no repair or replacement plan (outside of warranty) for the battery.
5. They are currently hosting their anti-Apple video on Mac.com - Apple's own servers! (albeit paid by another Mac.com user - yes, I realize that a Mac.com user can do whatever they want with their webspace; it's just ironic).
6. I offered to host their video for them when they were begging for mirrors in the first few days...with ONE condition: that they post/link to/etc information about Apple's battery replacement program that had ALREADY BEEN ROLLED OUT that they were essentially denying existed. They NEVER posted the information after several promises to do so (while I was hosting the video) and taking complete advantage of my offer. See http://das.doit.wisc.edu/neistatoriginal.txt for proof of this.
7. My girlfriend and I both - and thousands of others - have first gen iPods over two years old that have no problems with the battery. The blanket statement that the batteries only last "18 months" is also false. Do the have a finite lifetime? Yes. Is it always, or even mostly, 18 months? Nope.
Disappointed,
Dave Schroeder
University of Wisconsin - Madison
das@doit.wisc.edu
http://das.doit.wisc.
608-265-4737
Marketing. They know their demographic, and what they respond to. Microsoft may have the "Budweiser" demographic (largest market share, mass appeal), but Apple has the "Sam Adams" (small but higher-spending) nailed...
I have the original iPod (almost 2 years old and the battery still lasts about 8 hrs), and much of the reason people like has already been mentioned: The interface, with the wheel, is very clean and easy to use. It's slim and fits in a pocket easily. The synchronization with iTunes is seamless. I can even start my Mac off it.
However, the most important reason is the status. It looks cool. I know someone in my school who has the same Archos, and I don't recall him ever getting a compliment on it. I, on the other hand, always get attention, compliments, and general respect. (It has not, unfortunately, gotten me laid). People are incredibly superficial. One prick in my grade has spoken to me for the last 2.5 years on only two occasions: once for the iPod, and a second for a real Burberry scarf I have (check the price on burberry.com, if you wish). Why the scarf and the iPod? Both are expensive and "designer". They make me, the ugly and dorky atc24, not so bad, and since I'm friendly at let everyone try it, people are a lot more friendly with me. The iPod is like an ice-breaker with people. I know I sound like an image-driven, pretentious, rich prick, and if you'd like to think so, fine. But this world is dominated by idiots who look only at image; if you get used to it, and forgive yourself for being a fueling the system, you can learn how to work the system and be not only "cool" but still a nerd. Now, please excuse my long rant.
"The correct value [of the GB] is 1 billion (1,000,000,000) bytes. In short, you are a retard."
Nice to know that complex technical arguments can be solved using a simple personal insult.
Perhaps explain why every operating system for the last 3 decades have defined 1KB = 1024 bytes, 1MB = 1024**2 bytes, and when large storage became available, extended that to 1GB = 1024**3 bytes.
Then along comes a hard disk manufacturer, unilaterally redefines it, and suddenly they're right? And fdisk is wrong. And ls is wrong. And format is wrong. And hdparm is wrong. And Windows Explorer is wrong. And all the computer science papers since 1955 are wrong. Somehow, all those technical people who created the computers, the hardware, and all the programming tools, they made some mistake, and were wrong all along. All it took was a hard-disk manufacturer to come along and correct them.
And suddenly, we're using SI conventions to explain our redefinition of the GB. Nevermind that the byte is not an SI unit, never was, never will be.
Nevermind that hard disk manufacturers for a long time defined a GB as 1000 * 1000 * 1024 bytes. Perhaps they didn't have the gall to change the value of a KB, which is fairly fundamental to computing. Talk about mixing your units.
Oh yes, and of course there's the Gibibyte. Invented in about 1998, in response to the hard-disk manufacturers redefinition of the GB, and not even heard of before that. Odd how that word was never used when Unix was being written. Perhaps those early programmers weren't technical enough, and it took the insight and intelligence of a marketing department to spot their mistake.
Hence followed such confusion that even the IEEE was duped into believing they should endorse the change. So somehow, all of our operating systems are now out of date. Perhaps you could be the first to update the VAX and Unix code to reflect the new standard. Perhaps you could change the FTP servers, HTTP clients, network monitoring tools, the formatting utilities. Perhaps you could get some of my 1980 programming manuals republished, to reflect the new marketing-friendly standards, and all those websites which refer to 1.44MB floppy disks, well history must be rewritten.
then have a charger that shuts itself off. If you are paying astronomical amounts of money for what is touted as a "great" product from a "great company" I expect that same great company producing this great product to take care to make sure the charger doesn't overcharge the battery.
You're right. It's completely their responsibility...for the one year period of their warranty. Then you have to fix it your damn self, pay them to do it, or shell out the $150 for ipod 3 year warranty.
This is not that strange. People shouldn't get free repairs forever on any device, and 1 year is much longer than the other hard drive based players offer.
On the other hand, Lithium Ion batteries last a long time in a small footprint, but they do die. And to replace them for ANYTHING is expensive, for whatever reason, it's why i made sure my latest digital camera ran off AAs. The $99 (you know, i heard $79 when I looked into it...it s inevitable with these things) upgrade includes some guy taking apart your ipod and replacing the battery, hopefully not messing up the delicate electronics while he's in there. $99 is not bad for invasive service on ANY device...I got charged $119 for Canon to CLEAN my printer a while back. Clean it!
I'd love to see Apple lower the price on these things, but it probably isn't going to happen. Best we can hope for is a third party to offer battery service for less money. There are battery sales for the 1 and 2G ipods...all it will take is one entrepeneur to offer these, with install, for a fair price. Maybe even auction off "battery repair" on ebay. Heckuva way to work yourself through an electronics trade school...
Hey freaks: now you're ju
It is a bad design for the device to not have a user-replaceable battery. But Apple has a long history of embracing proprietary technology so that their customers have as few recourses as possible to avoid dealing with them for peripherals and maintenance. It's sad to take such a great product and cripple it so that the whole device becomes useless without sending it back to the factory. But unfortunately, this isn't surprising when one considers it came from Apple.
Uh, what the fuck are you talking about? In uniquitous devices, there is ALWAYS a wide variation in performance. That's why you and I can drive the same car, and have vastly different gas mileage. We can play games on the same hardware, and get different frame rates. We can wear the same brand of shoes, and REGARDLESS of quality control, they'll die out at different times.
This is because the amount and type of use dictate performance in ubiquitous devices. No two uses are the same. So no two variations are the same.
As for the iPod...one of the tricks with battery life is to keep the hard disc from spinning, and keep the backlight off. Do these things and you can get 8+ hours. If you listen to a song, then scan for the next one, and repeat rather than selecting a playlist all at once, your battery life will be much lower. Because the machine has to spin up the drive each time, wheras with a playlist it loads all the songs it can up to the limits of memory. If you do these things and DON'T get 8+ hours, tell apple and they will fix it within the first year of purchase (within 90 days you don't even pay shipping). Because even with the tightest controls, there are still lemons. It's not like you're stuck with your citrus, though.
I don't see how the mechanics of a platter hard disc running off a battery "speak directly to quality," but I'm guessing your point was to disrespect Apple. Good job.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Isn't this all part of the "Apple experience"?
Yeah, bend over and grab your ankles.
When apple gets around to making another PDA, it will cost $2500, but hey, it will be WHITE and have a cool name...
any market where there is reasonable competition? I had the same treatment many years ago when I first bought an Apple II. I wound up taking it back to the place I bought and getting my money back (which then went to building one of the Heathkit computers).
I've never bothered taking Apple, it's supposed cult of coolness, or it's army of fanatics dubbed users seriously since then. Apple does some interesting things with industrial engineering, but realistically, who cares?
I think maybe they learned customer service from Sun Microsystems........
Your cell phone and cordless phone batteries were so cheap because they're made in Chinese plants with non-existent quality assurance. I've heard of stories of such batteries leaking and/or even exploding!
If you want to trust your $400 iPod with a $20 battery, go ahead and be my guest. Just don't be too surprised when you see some liquid oozing out of it someday.
In regards to the user-replaceable battery, my thought is that if they wanted to keep the iPod relatively small, they had to give up putting in an accessible battery compartment.
Too bad this can't be modded up any more. I really don't want to hear another "I've had my ipod for [insert time] and it still works fine". Some iPod batteries are failing and it's bloody costly to replace them. The fact that someone elses iPod hasn't failed has no connection. What to they want, some kind of award for a having working iPod? I have a $3,000 powerbook. Its battery (which was always properly treated) died about a month after the warranty expired. The fact that Bob next door has a working battery has no effect on the $120 that Apple insists I pay for the new one.
No. The reason is glaringly obvious if you look at the AAPL financial reports. Apple do more R&D than the competition. For example, Apple spends 6 times what Dell do on R&D, relative to their earnings. Their products aren't the best by a flash of inspiration you know. It takes work.
Mice, Laptops, MP3 Players, Monitors, Computers, etc, etc, etc. If it works with Apple products, they make sure they are the only ones selling it (and, especially since they opened the Apple Stores, they make sure they are the only VENDOR selling it). If it is branded Apple, you are going to be paying more than similiar products for other systems.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
Granted, most if not all the parts come from the East, but when I worked for the fruit co. back in '99 all the desktop units were assembled at their facility in Elk Grove (a suburb of Sacramento CA). Having heard nothing to the contrary, I'd suspect they still exist.
ehintz
You said it yourself: you have a choice. Getting upset over it is pointless and counterproductive. Get over it.
You know, I am in complete agreement that the original policy of Apple in this matter was ridiculous. I view it as not supporting a product you sold, and that's just bad business at best.
But this guy...
I'm reading his whole experience, and it's frankly the first I've heard of it, and all along I'm thinking to myself "ok, this guy has a legit gripe, I'm behind him".
But then, as I've come to expect from everyone on this planet, he goes and blows it...
The story ends with THE PURCHASE OF A NEW IPOD!
Dude, if you were so f'ing outraged, don't buy a new one! Have some damned balls and stand up for your principals and refuse to buy another one. It's not dinner or clothes guy, it's a TOY!
The world at large (maybe just in America this is true I guess) has come to a point where they consider things that are in no way necessities, just that. They believe that every person is entitled to have a cell phone, a PC, a car, whatever else. They then feel slighted when they don't get the things they want.
If you can't afford to eat, you have a problem. If you can't pay for a roof over your head, that's an issue. If you can't put a pair of shoes on your feet, you need some help.
IF YOUR IPOD'S BATTERY GOES TITS UP, THIS IS NOT LIFE-THREATENING!!!! No matter how lousy you feel not being able to listen to your Hootie tunes on the bus while sipping your latee (and I'm not even going to bother looking up the correct spelling), it's not the end of the world.
And when a company does something unfair to you, even if you are 100% right about it, don't turn around and give in! Geez, that's like me saying "I can't believe this doctor is going to charge me $50,000 to lipo out my fat ass, that's unfair and I hate him", and then promptly writing out a check to him.
F'ing morons. Too many of them, all over the place. Very sad indeed.
If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
Funny... The car you purchased for probably tens of thousands of dollars doesn't have user replaceable tires, or engine or transmission, yet your are guaranteed that all of those things will wear out at some point in the life of the product. Your options are to send the car to the manufacturer's repair shop (or one you chose who will use non-authorized parts for a lower price), or purchase a new car.
The replacements will cost you many dollars more than the actual products are worth after labor, disposal, etc.
The reason that Apple will not support WMA is that WMA is a closed and proprietary format. AAC is an open and universally licensable format. Whether Apple will ever license/open the proprietary FairPlay DRM they use is another issue all together.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
Mac zealots go on and on about how superior apples engineering is, but this really illustrates that it's not. If it was well designed, it would be user serviceable, certainly for something as simple as replacing the battery. Simply planning to have people trash their $300+ investment every 18 months is certainly not an example of good planning or good engineering.
Sure, you can buy batteries from unofficial online retailers, but supposedly its extremely difficult. If the product had been well designed you'd simply be able to pop in a new cellphone style battery when the old one stopped working.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
This is not that strange. People shouldn't get free repairs forever on any device
Since when is changing a battery repairing something?
Have you tried Linux yet?
You're right. It's completely their responsibility...for the one year period of their warranty. Then you have to fix it your damn self, pay them to do it, or shell out the $150 for ipod 3 year warranty.
Yeah, but for a well designed product, a dead battery does not require "fixing" or "service", it requires a trip to Target, pushing in a button, and popping in new batteries.
On the other hand, Lithium Ion batteries last a long time in a small footprint, but they do die. And to replace them for ANYTHING is expensive, for whatever reason, it's why i made sure my latest digital camera ran off AAs. The $99 (you know, i heard $79 when I looked into it...it s inevitable with these things) upgrade includes some guy taking apart your ipod and replacing the battery,
This is just ridiculous. Lithium Ion batteries will fail and fail within a year or two of constant use. It's just the way they are. Batteries aren't like solid state electronics, which pretty much work forever, or even hard drives (which have a constant failure probability, meaning that it's as likely to break down 20 years after you buy it as the day you bought it).
An irreplaceable battery is simply a horrible design decision, and very poor engineering. Any other company, and people would be screaming to the sky at how shitty a job they've done. But since it's apple, they get a pass from all the people who worship the company.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
The iPod charges off the firewire connection to the computer. Most people wouldn't think to make sure their iPod is disconnected from their machine once the thing has been charged up enough, they'll probably leave it connected so that they can synch up their songs whenever they change their playlist.
In fact, if they do need to take care of that, it's a product design failure in and of itself. Users shouldn't need to worry about how long the thing is plugged in, that's just ridiculous. It's easy to have the charger stop charging when it's done. Even my $20 car starter can do this. So can the charger for my camera, my cell phone, my little memory stick music player, the PDAs I never use... I mean come on. Apple fucked this up, there's no getting around it.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
This is because you were a nerd. No matter what close you wore, you weren't getting laid. But that oscilloscope could make you rich some day...and then the pussy comes ROLLING in.
Okay then, convincing a teen that Actual old faded t-shirts from goodwill are as good as pseudo-faded t-shirts from American Eagle for 5 times as much.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
The iPod is not sealed at the factory. It is rather trivial to open one. I'm told you can easily do it with just about any plastic credit card type thing. Personally I've found a $0.95 spark plug gap gauge from AutoZone to be the ideal tool. It takes me less than 2 minutes to open the iPod and I leave no marks on it. It's certainly no harder to open the iPod than to find and replace the air filter on most modern cars.
u tos/newcar.h tmr ive. htm
The reason Apple has no competition for repairing the iPod seems simple to me: Most iPods have either not failed (despite the brothers' noismaking), or have failed under warranty. If/when we get to a point where there are a large number of iPods on the market needing repair out of warranty, then third parties will start offering services. When VCRs came on the market no-one could fix them but the factory. Same with camcorders, CD players, etc. In a capitalist society you don't get a market until you have a demand and a supply.
I can tell you from experience that any sufficiently low-volume product does not garner much third party repair support.
As for the maintenence of the iPod costing 33% of the unit's replacement value every 1.5 to two years, an automobile is slightly higher than that. At an average cost of $24,000, and an average driving distance of 15,000 miles per year at an average cost of about 50 cents per mile, automobile upkeep/operation costs about 50% of replacement costs in 1.5 to 2 years of operation.
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/a
http://www.nctr.usf.edu/clearinghouse/costtod
Compared to a car, the upkeep costs of an iPod are low. And my dealer never advertises that the tires or wipers wear out, or that the oil or battery needs to be changed. These things are left as common sense or for the owner to learn about themselves.
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
An irreplaceable battery is simply a horrible design decision, and very poor engineering.
Except it's not irreplaceable. It requires a screwdriver to replace. Pop the casing off, unplug old battery, plug in replacement, put case back on. Wipe hands on pants.
Not much difficulty, and you only need to do it once every 1.5 to 2 years. And if you don't like doing it, you can pay someone to do it. Even the manufacturer, if you really want to.
The iPod is well designed. Look how small it is! Isn't that cool? Why would Apple ruin a device by making it butt-ugly 24/7 just to make a once-every-two-years task a little simpler?
Even if you do think it's crap, don't bitch about it. Go and buy an iPod competitor, which will either be bigger, have no hard drive, take longer to upload to, have a non solid-state controls, have jaggy edges, have a crap user interface, or some combination thereof.
I already learned my lesson. My first digital camera used a Li-Ion battery. A second battery was $40. When new the battery was good to power the camera for about an hour or take about 25 flash pictures. It would not take off the shelf batteries. After the first wedding and reception (5 hour affair total) I knew I had to use another solution. (A $200+ battery stock to cover ocasional large events did not make sense) After about 1 year, one of the batteries was only good for about 10 shots. I gave the camera away free.
Ever since then, Battery and Storage media type were much more important than zoom ability or pixel count. A set of 4 AA Nickel Hydride batteries powers my camera now. I have 3 sets charged and ready. If I need to do a graduation, birthday party, wedding, reception, parade, etc., I take extra CF cards, the 3 sets of batteries, ($12/set, not $40) and a 12 pack of alkalines just in case. So far I haven't needed them. A 200 shot wedding and reception seldom gets beyond the second set of rechargable batteries. (Curently using a Minolta using AA batteries and CF With the 8 meg buffer CF write speeds are not an issue.)
I've applied the same learning to my personal audio. If consumables are not readly available and inexpensive, I don't need it.
It's the same reason I use a laser printer for most of my printing. A $60 cart good for 7,000 pages is better than a $35 cart good for 300 pages.
My newest printer that came free with my wife's new computer will probably be recycled when the cartridges are dry. It is the most expensive to run printer I have. It probably won't get supplies restocked ever. It does have a built in low resolution scanner that is handy. We will see if the scanner dies when the printer runs out of ink. It wouldn't suprise me. (FYI Dell all in one with midget caridges. 300 DPI max scanner resolution.)
What was not mentioned in the article is what happens to the DRM files when the player dies?
How much music at $.99 per song is lost?
The truth shall set you free!
"$150 for ipod 3 year warranty"
Yes, paying nearly 40% of the original purchase price (50% for the cheapest model) to buy a warranty that covers something that should be easily handled with the proper engineering, is certainly reasonable. *rolls eyes*
$99 to have Apple replace the battery is not that extreme considering how much labor is involved in doing so. This isn't a case of somebody popping open a door and dropping in a new battery, you have to take the entire thing apart. If you don't want to pay the $99, fine, go buy the battery for $50, do it yourself and risk damaging the iPod. At least if an Apple tech fucks up they'll replace the unit, probably with a better one then you sent them.
Christ.. bitch bitch bitcb.
Apple's support has a long standing reputation for being friendly and helpful. Everyone knows the products and peripherals are priced higher than PC products - but you shouldn't mind paying for superior design and quality in hardware. Don't compare apples + oranges (compare Mac hardware to standard hardware.)
I call bullshit. The iPod's non-replaceable battery is obviously not superior design. There are smaller hard disk MP3 players that have user servicable batteries. And it ain't superior quality. Also Apple doesn't make most of their own components. You aren't paying for superior apple design and quality. It's just another third party manufacturer.
Apple sacrifices function to improve form. Sure their stuff is pretty. But I don't care about pretty. I want function. At a tech class that I used to go to, we primarily worked on PCs. The PCs were extremely reliable. Over the course of a year we had one hard drive failure and one PS failure. Out of about 50 computers, that is pretty good.
We had one G4 cube. It was very pretty. Lots of lucite. The Apple engineers, in their infinite wisdom, decided that a typical power switch would look stupid. It had a power button on top that was heat sensitive or something. Unfortunately, it never worked. We had to take off the case to turn on the computer.
And after a while the PS failed. It was just about the most useless computer I've ever seen in my life.
If you don't understand any of my sayings, come to me in private and I shall take you in my German mouth.
support person = idiot, you could just look up online to see that battery replacement was a service offered even before they made it a big deal recently. But going around spraypainting signs instead of investigating further or asking to speak to a manager, especially since it IS easy to get into the case to do a replacement anyway = even worse, cause now instead of fighting they have just commited a criminal act that Im sure with Apples lawyers knowing about it, is going to bite them in the ass.
No I have to be honest, I dont really beleive eveything thats being shown about this deal, for one thing why do they have a recording of the whole thing, in most states its illegal to record phone conversations without the other person knowing (hence the "this conversation may be monitored deal")
I really hate people sticking up for these two punks, cause while they may have had reasons, the end doesnt justify the means, and its obvious these kids are trying to stir up more trouble than the situation really is.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
When your car doesn't start because your battery is dead, do you consider replacing it car repair?
Personally, I consider it maintenance, but then again, I do most of that myself - and, of course, I can diagnose a dead car battery. Some people are incapable of doing the latter, so "repair" probably qualifies when their battery fails.
Which is why I'm a little mystified at people getting their panties in a bunch over someone who can't wield a screwdriver. If you refuse to (or are so incompetant that you can't) do the maintenance yourself, you have to pay someone to do it. This is unusual... How?
Moof!
I've never understood the "blind loyalty" issue with people and inanimate objects or companies.
If you're an Apple fan, that's fine, but making excuses for any shortcoming of their products doesn't help your cause. It's the people that complain about deficiencies that are most-likely to get the company to resolve these issues. If the sycophants get uppity at the slightest mention of a flaw, they do themselves and the object of their affection a great disservice.
This reminds me of another piece of audio equipment I purchased recently, and thought was very good. I found an online forum where enthusiasts discussed the product. When I discovered a bug in the product's firmware, a number of "locals" on the board engaged me in hostile argument that it wasn't a "bug." Eventually a rep from the company actually made a post and acknowledged the bug and promised to fix it in a future release. The sycophants harbored animosity towards me for not blindly, unconditionally accepting the product as it was. Think about this the next time something doesn't work right, and rally against the boneheads that harbor unconditional loyalty towards any corporate interest. It helps no one.
So, you charge the gameboy battery 99 times, and then pay Nintendo 20 dollars for a new battery.
99 times, that's what, 3 months?
Hmmmm...99 bucks to apple after 18 moths, or (20 * 6 = 120) 120 bucks to Nintendo after 18 months.
So your point was that Apple's design was greedier than Nintendo? Funny, because it seems 20 bucks cheaper to me.
You can't take the sky from me...