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The State of Automated Commercial Skipping

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the genie-out-of-the-bottle dept.

iskqy writes "Even though attention to commerical skipping has gone down since the motion picture studios sued replaytv for it, I've noticed that it appears to be alive and well in some PVR products on the market. ReplayTV PVRs have it (though different from what they got sued for) in what they call Show|Nav (what a terrible feature name!) and SnapStream's Beyond TV has it in a feature they call SmartSkip. In both cases, the user has to press a button to automagically skip a commercial (vs. the original ReplayTV feature which skipped them without any user intervention) but it's basically the same thing. ReplayTV plays down commercial skipping ("jump forward and back between scenes in a show") but SnapStream is more open about the feature ("Skip commercials and other parts of TV shows"). "

32 of 381 comments (clear)

  1. automagic skipping by cerenyx · · Score: 5, Funny

    I wish I could 'automagically' skip parts of my life I got bored with/didn't want to endure.

  2. maybe im missing something... by jtilak · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This has probably been said already (maybe not) but isnt suing replaytv for giving consumers the ability to skip commercials like suing mozilla for blocking popups?

    1. Re:maybe im missing something... by TCaptain · · Score: 4, Funny

      Don't give the lawyers any ideas :)

      --
      "I'm not a procrastinator, I'm temporally challenged"
    2. Re:maybe im missing something... by buelba · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's actually an interesting analogy. Here are some very vague initial thoughts (yes, IAAL):

      A commercial broadcast is a copyrighted work. So you can't infringe on that copyright by creating a derivative work. Deleting the commercials creates an unauthorized derivative work, just like deleting certain scenes of a movie creates an unauthorized derivative work. This is why devices that automatically remove the commercials for you infringe.

      But wait, you say, I am not deleting the commercials, I am just skipping them! Actually I am not even doing that -- I am just skipping ahead 30 seconds when I feel like it. If that always happens to come during commercials, that's not my fault. This is where it gets really interesting -- the networks say that the 30-second-skip is an infringing device under the DMCA because there is no substantial non-infringing use for a thirty-second skip ahead. That is, the only purpose that most TV users would use for a 30-second skip is to skip commercials, thus creating an unauthorized derivative work. On the other hand, you could say that 30-second skip is no different from fast-forward, and we know fast-forward has a substantial non-infringing use -- going past stuff that you've already seen or don't want to bother with.

      If I wanted to distinguish pop-up blockers from replay, I would say that pop-up blockers are different because (1) the commercials are not integrated with the rest of the site (they change by user) and therefore they are not a coherent copyrighted work like a TV broadcast, and (2) pop-up blockers have a substantial non-infringing use because they prevent people from falling into pop-up traps, which are obviously very bad.

      But I'm not sure that argument would win.

    3. Re:maybe im missing something... by no+soup+for+you · · Score: 3, Insightful
      his is where it gets really interesting -- the networks say that the 30-second-skip is an infringing device under the DMCA because there is no substantial non-infringing use for a thirty-second skip ahead

      The aspect of the DMCA you're talking about applies to encrypted copyrighted works. When signals get to these devices, they either were not encrypted, or have already been decrypted (with the exception of DirecTivo)

      --
      If you blog it...
    4. Re:maybe im missing something... by Schezar · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "If I wanted to distinguish pop-up blockers from replay, I would say that pop-up blockers are different because (1) the commercials are not integrated with the rest of the site (they change by user) and therefore they are not a coherent copyrighted work like a TV broadcast...

      Cable stations often replace sections of advertisments with their own local ones. Some shows are repeated on different networks with different ads.

      The show is a copyrighted work. The commercials are each individual copyrighted works. I'd keep typing, but you see where I'm going with this...

      --
      GeekNights!
      Late Night Radio for Geeks!
    5. Re:maybe im missing something... by bezuwork's+friend · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I'm not familiar with any actual suits which may have been going on with commercial skipping or popup blocking, but this concept bothers me.

      First, I defer to any lawyers here and hope to hear any rebuttals they may have to the following. Just having completed a copyright course (and thus having a little dangerous knowledge), I offer the following:

      Copyright subsists at fixation (17 USC 102), so, as another poster noted, the shows and commercials are obviously separately copyrighted. If the shows are then fixed with commercials interposed, then a copyright would also presumably exist for the compliation of the shows and commercials. This is likely not how it is done as it would seem that the commercials would be served from a separate source in real time. If this is true, the channel stream viewed by the user would not necessarily have a copyright as a compliation. On the other hand, I would expect, if determination of the order and identity of the shows and interposed commercials is done by a file, the file would be copyrightable and thus protectable. [This follows from a case we studied on the Duke Nukem game in which so-called "MAP" files which had no graphics but which controlled the display of library graphics were basically held copyrightable.]

      I think this doesn't matter, however. It is a well-known copyright tenet that derivative works are not created by unfixed alterations of performances/displays. For example, if you hold up pink cellophane in front of a television to make everything appear pink, you have not created a derivative work (the pinkified work was not fixed in any physical medium), although photographing the result would. This example was from Judge Kosinski (spelling?) of the 9th Circuit in the Duke Nukem case referenced previously. This is also why people with sunglasses aren't sued for creating derivative works of everything they see. So, blacking out commercials or skipping them would seem to clearly not create a derivative work.

      The most likely way for broadcasters to prevent commercial skipping would seem to be under some form of moral rights. Moral rights protects against mutilation or unauthorized modification of works of art. However, first, the broadcasters would have to prove a television broadcast was a work of art, which seems unlikely (I mean, the shows in combination with commercials interposed). Second, in the US, at the federal level at least, protection of visual works does not extend to movies or television (see the definition of visual art under 17 USC 101). So this fails as well.

  3. MythTV by Tanlain · · Score: 5, Informative

    MythTV has had this feature for awhile and it can be set to automatically skip commercials so you dont have to press a button to skip them.

    1. Re:MythTV by LightlyToasted · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't find the auto-skip feature to be very useful in MythTV. It gets it right about 80% of the time, but some shows that I watch with lots of black frames (like 24) tend to get confused with commercial boundaries. 80% isn't good enough yet, but it's an awfully cool feature that I'm sure will improve as the product evolves.

  4. state of commercials by a1g0rithm · · Score: 5, Interesting

    aside from the lawsuits, maybe the push for this techology will force the media to step up their game when it comes to the quality of commercials.. it seems that more and more people are watching things like the superbowl - just to see the commercials that promoters spent time and money to develop.. either the quality of the commercials will increase, or they will go the way of the internet banner ad..

  5. I don't get it by acidrain69 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As a TIVO/ReplayTV virgin, how does the commercial skipping operate? Does it skip a certain amount of time ahead? Does it somehow use motion compensation to detect frame changes and stop fast forwarding when the scene has changed a significant amount? Are commercials just a set amount of time and I've never noticed it all these years? Is it more like a VCR system where you have to fast forward and then curse when you went too far, and then it uses scene changes to go back? Any ideas?

    --
    -- Having a Creationist Museum is like having an Atheist place of worship
    1. Re:I don't get it by tang · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm not sure exactly how it works, but I can tell you how it doesn't work:) This is from a 5080 series replayTV, with the auto-commercial skip.
      It doesn't use time. The commercials can be any length. It seems to be about 90% effective (with the latest software update, it used to be worse). So while Im watching a show, it almost always skips ahead at the correct time (when the commercial starts) but 10% of the time it will either start about 10 seconds before the commericals end, or 5-10 seconds into the show (in which case, I curse, then use the goback button (whatever its called) that automatically goes back seven (I think) seconds.
      Its a neat feature, and it seems like it sometimes works better on some shows than others. For instance, I always had a problem with it working with X-files more than say, Family guy.

    2. Re:I don't get it by tang · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, according to everything I've read, there is no actual increase of sound decibels in commericals. Here is an example I cut and pasted from somewhere..
      "Technically, the maximum volume is the same for commercials and normal programming. If you watch the audio levels on a VU meter you will see that they peak at around the same level.

      The difference is that advertisers make use of various tricks to make the commercials seem louder. Whereas a TV program will have a range of audio levels, commercials do tend to be full-on noisy. Tricks such as compression are also used to maintain constantly "louder" levels and try to attract attention.

      So it's mainly a perceptual thing. Although the commercials don't reach a high volume, the way they are made gives the impression that they are louder."

    3. Re:I don't get it by javatips · · Score: 4, Informative

      That and the sound is compressed to reduce its dynamic range. This allow for a higher average volume. (the same technique is used on radio broadcast to have an higher signal to noise ratio)

      So by checking the variation in dynamic range of the sound the software is able to guess that some part of the recording is a commercial.

      I believe this is the main method used to detect commercials.

    4. Re:I don't get it by Threni · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Also, many commercials have speech which has been edited to increase the speed but maintain the original pitch, so it doesn't sound like a chipmunk on helium and so that you can fit more in. It still sounds pretty funny to me (try and repeat what they just said) but apparantly not many people notice it.

    5. Re:I don't get it by jcoy42 · · Score: 5, Informative

      TiVo doesn't have commercial skip

      Sure it does (from the TiVo Community forums):

      While playing a recorded show, press Select, Play, Select, 3, 0, Select. You should hear some kind of beeping confirmation tones at the end. The ->| button will then function as a 30-sec skip instead of it's normal function.

      Another feature I didn't know about is you can sort the now playing list:

      Sorting the Now Playing List (3.0)
      In Now Playing, Enter:
      (S)low (0)Zero (R)ecord (T)humbsUp

      Press enter to switch sorting options.

      short cut keys are
      1 for normal
      2 for experation date
      3 for alphabetical

      --
      Never trust an atom. They make up everything.
  6. Flawed business model? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sorry, but the networks have no inherent RIGHT to make money. It's wonderful if they can, but if they feel they are loosing money due to commerical skipping then maybe their business model isn't viable anymore and they need to think about change. Nothing makes me more enraged than corporations that seek protection from congress rather than adapting to new market conditions.

    1. Re:Flawed business model? by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When you read a newspaper do you make sure to read ALL of the ads?

      THIEF!!!

      I'll bet that you even have a pop-up blocker installed on your computer, you evil bastard.

    2. Re:Flawed business model? by Viking+Coder · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's a broadcast signal. Broadcast. That means that anyone can do with it what they please, as long as they obey copyright law. Copyright law prohibits me from distributing copies, or making unlicensed derivative works.

      I can change channels when a show jumps to commercials, I can mute the sound when a show jumps to commercials, I can even video tape a show and watch it at a later time - as many times as I like to. Because presentation is different from copyright. I can re-present a copyrighted work to myself, if I have an authorized copy of it. I am not licensed to watch a copyrighted broadcast work - there are no limits on how I may use it, as long as I don't break copyright law.

      Read that again - there are no limits on how I may use it, as long as I don't break copyright law.

      I am under no obligation to buy all of the advertised products. I am under no obligation to give due consideration to the advertised products. I am under no obligation to pay attention to the advertised products. I am under no obligation to watch the products be advertised. Even though, if I were to do all of those things, it would make the broadcast business more successful, and those reasons are in fact the only reason why the business is providing a broadcast television signal.

      McDonalds could hire a guy to stand in a Hamburgler suit, and hand out $1 bills to everyone that walks into the restaurant. They are legally allowed to give things away for free. They can expect people to notice that they're giving away something for free. They can expect people to buy more of what they're selling, because they've given away something for free. But the people have no legal obligation to notice, or to buy the products!

      It's advertising! Even the television program itself is advertisement for the products in the commercials. "Notice me! Buy this!" Certain forms of advertising are illegal - false advertising comes to mind. But as long as consumers obey copyright, they are allowed to do anything they want to with the advertisements! They provide me with a free product, broadcast television, and they hope that I'll watch the commercials. A car company could give away free cars, loaded with 10% off coupons for McDonalds. If I don't sign any contracts, then I am under no license, there are no limits on my use of their free product, and I don't have to drive their car to freaking McDonalds. If they program the car to automatically drive to McDonalds, then I can chose not to use the car - but under the DMCA, I am prohibited from tampering with the device, and I must merely accept what it does - drive me to McDonalds - as long as that causes me no harm. I may not personally like that law, but it is the law.

      It doesn't matter that you're correct that if people completely ignored advertising, that "free" publications would go away. They have no legal protection that their business practice of giving away something free will always result in increased sales. They're relying on psychology, that repeated presentation increases the perceived desirability of a product. They're using your mind against you. I can use my remote control against them.

      Everything has an associated cost somewhere unless those doing it are not getting paid.

      They are giving away something for free, and they hope that you'll be tricked into buying their products. They're chosing the cost of giving away something for free - I am not accepting the responsibility to pay them. If I signed an agreement saying that I would watch commercials in exchange for video programming, then they would have a legal right to force me to watch their commercials - it's a contract, and both parties profit - I get TV, and they get me to do what they want - watch their commercials.

      I HAVE SIGNED NO CONTRACT. THEY'RE HANDING OUT FREE GOODS. THEY HAVE NO LEGAL RIGHT TO MAKE ME WATCH THEIR COMMERCIALS.

      --
      Education is the silver bullet.
    3. Re:Flawed business model? by evilviper · · Score: 3, Insightful
      For the life of me I can't figure out where people believe they should get TV for free. What makes you think they don't have a right to make money but you have the right to watch free TV?

      I don't think anyone thinks that commercials should disappear. It's a matter that networks have made commercials monumentally annoying, and are willing to put the extra effort into skipping them because of that annoyance.

      Additionally, I don't think you'll find that people are complaining that over-the-air broadcasts should be commercial-free, but you could certainly say that cable/satellite TV should be, since you are paying a few dollars for each station, per-person, per month.

      Also, programming is getting crappier (no nostalga here, it really is much crappier) and if you had to tolerate the nasty commercials, it wouldn't be worth watching. Networks should consider these boxes their saviors, otherwise nobody would be willing to watch their stations, and nobody would then be paying their providers and keeping the stations on the air.

      Right now, stations are so terrible that the market is ripe for the picking. Put on a handful of decent station, decent content, and non-iritating commercial, and you'd take-over. Unfortunately, stations that seemed to be doing that (eg. Bravo) got swallowed up by big companies with other annoying channels (eg. NBC/Time Warner) who don't want people to have an alternative.

      No then, I'd be more than happy to pay a few bucks for each commercial-free channel I recieved, but I don't have that option. I strongly dislike the programming on HBO/Showtime and even if I didn't cable companies want too much money, and don't offer them without $40++ basic service as well.

      So, I'm disgusted with the whole thing, and there doesn't seem to be much alternative out there. If things get much worse, I'll just cancel my cable service, and invest that money in upgrading my netflix service.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    4. Re:Flawed business model? by Viking+Coder · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Annonymous Coward: Sorry, but the networks have no inherent RIGHT to make money.

      div_2n: If you are viewing their network programming they do. They provide you with programming for the low price of watching commercials.

      That is saying that "they [have] a right to force you to watch commercials." There is no price for the consumer associated with watching broadcast television. The television station is providing something for free - that means with no price. Not a low price as you indicate, but with no price.

      "Expect" is a dangerous phrase when you start talking about law, div_2n. There's the conversational usage, which means something akin to, "I believe," and there's the legal definition which is much closer to "I am entitled to." They may believe that they can make money from giving away a free product, but they have no entitlement to that money. They have done nothing which guarantees (or entitles) them to profit. They have chosen to give away something for free, and can have no expectations beyond the protection of their rights, which are limited almost exclusively to those of being copyright holders over the material that they broadcasted.

      Don't get so defensive about your rights.

      Don't post stupid comments. Like this one. If you didn't want to engage in a conversation, then you shouldn't have posted. When you attack personal rights, people get defensive.

      I don't have a right to free TV, you are correct. But if free TV is made available to me, then I am WELL within my rights to use it within the bounds of the law. For instance, not watching the freaking commercials. Or buying a product that helps me not watch the commercials.

      They could expect revenue (different from profit), if I had agreed to terms, including providing something (like watching commercials), in return for that service being provided. I HAVE NOT AGREED TO ANY TERMS. I am making use of a free product. They cannot expect any revenue from that. They have no rights in this conversation, other than as granted them by copyright law.

      Don't get so defensive of the profit motive of multi-billion-dollar corporations. My rights are far more important than their profits.

      --
      Education is the silver bullet.
  7. Advertising "product placement" by bludstone · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So, as people switch to skipping commercials, we will probably see a huge push in product placement in new tv shows. Hell, I was watching some movie channel the other day, and the people who introduced the movie also doubled as salesmen, trying to push some random product on me.

    Looking forward to seeing bart's room covered in butterfinger wrappers.

    --

    no .sig
  8. Commercials are ok - once by cybermancer · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I welcome the ability for people to skip commercials or advertisements for the simple reason that they fail to deliver on their goal. They only seem to annoy people and motivate them to switch channels.

    If a commercial / ad actually imparts information or entertainment value, then I enjoy and look forward to it, the first couple times. Too many commercials /ads are repeated over and over again. If I wasn't interested the first time, then I doubt I will be the 100th time. This is the same way with SPAM. I get 3 offers a day for the same useless products. One thing I really hate about Discovery channel (and others) is that they only have about a dozen commercials that they play over and over and over again.

    It is unfortunate that advertisers believe (and possibly rightfully so) that consumers are more likely to purchase a product if they are repeatedly exposed to an ad that does not actually provide information about the product, but instead annoys the heck out of them due to content or frequency of occurrence.

    Much like elections, it usually comes down to name recognition.

    --
    "Anything is possible with enough programmers, time and pizza." (Substitute caffeine for time as needed.)
    1. Re:Commercials are ok - once by DrEldarion · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is unfortunate that advertisers believe (and possibly rightfully so) that consumers are more likely to purchase a product if they are repeatedly exposed to an ad that does not actually provide information about the product, but instead annoys the heck out of them due to content or frequency of occurrence.

      They are.

      The point of ads isn't to make people say, "Hey! I need a Big Mac right now!", it's to bash the product in the minds of people so that when someone thinks to themself, "I'm hungry, I need to grab something to eat really quick" the first thing that comes to their mind is "McDonald's".

      Here's a great example: If I asked a bunch of people who use the internet a lot what to get if I wanted a small, remotely viewable camera for spying on my (hypothetical) wife when I'm not home, the first thing that will come to their minds is "X10!". Not because it's a superior product, not because they've used it before and like it, but because it's been bashed into our minds so much that the X10 is immediately what we think of.

      THIS is what advertisers want.

  9. What's with extra commercials anyway? by questamor · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I remember back in the late 1980s listening to my parents and their disgust at commercial television stations now having up to THREE advertisements in ad spots, when before it was one, or maybe two on a slow night.

    Now, on pay television and free to air, I'm seeing 8-12 advertisements in each slot, and massive amounts of the shows I watch being cut out. Last time I watched X-Files (only because I know it used to be 43 minutes per episode when first shown) the entire show was cut down to 35 minutes. that's eight minutes of the show I want to watch gone, and over 80 advertisements.

    Now. What's the difference? What's so pricey nowadays that requires so many advertisements constantly?

    Pricey reality television shows. blah.

    1. Re:What's with extra commercials anyway? by GoofyBoy · · Score: 4, Informative

      In 3 hours of prime time viewing you watch/are exposed to 52 minutes of commericals

      That amount of time is a good justification to actively skip commericals.

      --
      The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
  10. NOT the end of commercials by Guano_Jim · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Unfortunately, skipping does not mean the end of commercials, just commercials as we know them.

    Subtle and not so subtle product placements will ensure that we continue to see advertising every time we watch TV, despite our best efforts.

    I suggest listening to public streaming radio (in ogg format no less) as a wonderful alternative to the tripe Madison avenue continues to shove down your throat.

    Unless you like tripe. Whatever floats your boat.

    --
    3D Printing Tips and Tricks at Zheng3.com
  11. Identifying Commercials 101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It should be easy to identify commercials for skipping. They are the blocks of broadcast time that don't have the Broadcast Flag set.

  12. Skipping Overt Ads Will Lead To Covert Marketing by ausoleil · · Score: 5, Insightful

    While nearly all of us who have PVR's enjoy the ability to skip screaming car salesmen, corporate drug pushers (pharmaceutical companies), incredibly heart warming financial companies touting their trustwothiness, etc. etc. et. all ad nauseum, eliminating them from our entertainment will be all but impossible. In fact, by eliminating the containerized thirty or sixty second ads, we'll instead get blasted by pop-ups and embedded product placements, etc., AND the traditional commercial. In fact, it is already happening. To wit:

    Disney owns ABC, ESPN and the Discovery Channel. How often on ESPN does one see "the stars" of that great new hit on ABC? How often does ABC tout programs on ESPN? And now, Discovery is in the act too, offering us "documentaries" on the magic behind Disney World in Orlando. And of course, who owns Disney World? Disney.

    Films made by Sony's studios almost always feature Sony equipment when a given character is using his or her PC. Also, the word "SONY" is often in huge black letters on the rear of a monitor, even though they aren't usually so prominent on the products shipped to Joe Consumer from the factory.

    Add to that the PAID product placements like Coca-Cola being drunk by a given character. There are many of those.

    And finally, the grand-daddy of product advertising discguised as content: NASCAR. Each car is festooned with no less than twenty different sponsors, starting with the make and model of the auto being raced (even they have exactly one part in common with their street version: the roof panel) plus the major sponsor of the driver, plus the minor sponsor plus all the super-minor sponsors not the least of which is NACAR itself. The whole race is a rotating advertisement, one which the competitors are trying not only to beat each other but also to gain the most exposure time for their sponsors. A higher position on the track means more "impressions" for the sponsors on the viewers. Best of all, when a driver is interviewed, he thanks 1) God 2) his crew and of course his sponsors for painting his "Folger's/Viargra/Ford/Taurus" in their colors. The entire event is, in short, an ad.

    That's direction we're headed. Like death, taxes and Microsoft security flaws, one simply cannot avoid marketing. It's simply more malleable than are the viewers or listeners of a given content.

  13. Re:Car ads by Suidae · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They probably don't make you want to go buy a new Model X car, but they do keep reminding you how nice a shiny new car would be, which helps to keep people buying cars.

    How often would you think about buying a new car if you never saw a car commercial?

  14. Another reason why I love my MythTV by strags · · Score: 4, Informative

    MythTV also has this feature built in.

    I cannot emphasize just how cool this project is - it has all the features you'd expect from a modern DVR, and many more besides. It's open-source and immensely configurable. For example:

    I also decided I'd like to be able to transfer recorded programs to my machine at work and watch them there, so I hacked up a little script to re-encode them at 100kbps, and added a "Watch Now" link to the MythWeb HTML web interface.

    The other day my wife was complaining that the fonts on the screen were too small, so I tweaked the XML configuration file to bump them up a bit.

    Thanks to LIRC, I can pretty much use any remote I like to control the box. I'm using an ancient, spare TV remote right now, and I can map the buttons whichever way I like.

    It'll also optionally rip DVDs and CDs, enabling you to play them from the hard drive. It will also play pretty much any video file you have (through MPlayer). If I want to show the wife a movie trailer that I've downloaded from the internet, I just copy it over to the MythTV box, and she can watch it on the television.

    Let's see you do all *that* with a Tivo!

  15. The only solution for commercials - trailers by SuperKendall · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The only way for stations to solve this commercial dillemaa is this.

    Make it really, really easy to download commercials - then before every show show "trialers" for a few commercials related to the show. If these are done well enough then people would watch instead of skipping, and go somewhere else to view the full versions of thigns they liked.

    I LOVED adCritic when it was free and I could look at whatever commercials I liked. Broadcasters (including cable on over the air stations) are really missing out by not making it so that I can look at a commercial when I want to, instead of when they think I should. As it is even if skipping is not in a product I can and do just leave or FF anyway, since I have no idea anything of any interest may be shown.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley