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Long Term Effects of Outsourcing

simulate writes "There have been several postings about outsourcing and offshoring in the past few weeks. Is outsourcing just a fad? In Outsourcing Programmers is Bad Strategy for Software Companies author Michael Bean compares offshoring to the enthusiasm for Internet startups in the Nineties. He claims that outsourcing programmers is bad for companies not because of the programmer layoffs, but because technology companies lose their capacity to innovate. Offshoring is a mistake when technology companies confuse operational effectiveness and strategy." I don't think the comparasion to Dot Bombs is entirely accurate - the trend to globalization overall has been going on for decades. Still interesting piece.

21 of 628 comments (clear)

  1. Not always a great idea by CreamOfWheat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    f you're building an innovative software company, you need to retain your best and brightest programmers internally. Software companies entirely based in India can successfully innovate over the long-term, as can US companies or companies based anywhere else. It's this recent trend of US software companies outsourcing all their development that's bad strategy.

    1. Re:Not always a great idea by sdcharle · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's nice, the problem is something like 99% of IT people don't work for innovative software companies. They work for banks or insurance companies or pharmas or telecoms or whatever.

    2. Re:Not always a great idea by sql*kitten · · Score: 5, Insightful

      banks or insurance companies or pharmas or telecoms or whatever.

      You are joking, right? If you knew anything about IT (hint: there's a lot more to it than the web) you would know that finance, pharma, telco etc are in the driving seat as far as advanced IT goes. Why do you think Sun, IBM, Oracle et al are selling the top-end kit to? Any company that can use technology for competitive advantage will drive (i.e. pay for) innovation to happen. Finance and telco created a whole new industry, data warehousing, which forced the development of mass storage, fast networking, massive parallelism. Pharma created a whole new branch of computer science, bioinformatics.

      The innovation that happens in the public eye is trivial compared to what happens in corporate cubicle farms and data centers.

      The reason Western software is innovative is because it is driven by the needs of Western companies. The reason India doesn't innovate is because (aside from Western companies outsourcing to it) it doesn't have large or complex enough domestic businesses competing with each other to push IT as competitive advantage.

    3. Re:Not always a great idea by CrazyTalk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Advanced IT at banks? In my experience (having worked as a consultant for a major bank and as a FTE for a Financial Management company), fianancial insitutions are way behind the curve technologically, because they are by nature very conservative and don't always need the latest and greatest (along with the associated risk). I know one place still running code originally written for Windows 3.1. Why? Because it works.

    4. Re:Not always a great idea by Shimmer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You missed the point.

      These companies might be innovative, and they might even be creating innovative software, but they are not "software companies", and hence the outsourcing option is a viable one.

      The great-grandparent post claimed that software companies (i.e. companies which produce software for profit) cannot outsource. The grandparent post pointed out (rightly) that such companies employ a tiny fraction of all software developers.

      --
      The most rabid believers in American Exceptionalism are the exact same people whose policies are destroying it.
    5. Re:Not always a great idea by pkphilip · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just something about myself - I am an Indian - I head the technology division at my firm based out of India - I am also the lead programmer.

      I have worked in programming jobs for over 9 years now.. both within US as well as many other nations across the world. Right now I am living in India.

      All I see in this discussion group are rehashed stereotypes. Let me address these;

      Misconception 1 - American programmers are better.
      Not necessarily. Indian programmers aren't necessarily better either. The averages are about the same. But there are exceptional programmers in both camps and then there are a lot of duds.

      Misconception 2 - Indians are not innovative.
      One of the aspects of being in a developing world is that budgets for research and development are always very hard to come by.. But not any more. Indian companies are throwing money at research and development now...Everyone here knows that the service industry for pure outsourcing cannot last for ever.. So there is a desire to innovate and get into new areas.. to innovate as much as possible when money is not a problem. This is not just true of India - look at China, see how fast they are innovating .. in all fields. See the number of headlines on Slashdot about new products under development or new ventures being planned. You didn't see this much before, did you?

      I have played a lead role in a very large project for an American publishing company - this project would not have had the slightest chance of even taking off the ground if it weren't for our team.
      The American end of the programming team was quite antogonistic when we started - had some really racist remarks thrown my way. But within a month, we had won their confidence and I have had multiple mails from the same people about what wonderful work we had done. One of these projects later went on to win a Java Developer Journal award.

      PWC was involved in another part of the same project and there was a desire within the American programmers to have PWC thrown out and have us take their place. NOTE: Not from the management but from the programmers. The only reason this didn't happen was because there was an ex-PWC chap in the management team.

      I have worked on other projects as well which were being managed and programmed by American teams - which were floundering. Since we have taken over, these companies now have a product they can sell.

      This is not to say that we haven't had failures - we have had our share. But please don't make it seem like we are incompetent idiots who can only obey orders and even then do the job badly.

  2. It'll get worse before it gets better... by soluzar22 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    While I don't think it's what you're referring to precisely, there has been a considerable move to outsourcing customer service call-centres in recent years. I think that in some cases this has led to a much higher level of customer service from the companies concerned. That's outsourcing taken care of. Offshoring, or moving the business outside of the UK (in these cases) has been considered lately as well. This seems to be having the opposite effect, as the new centres in foreign parts are staffed with inexperience workers without the requisite communication skills. It's going to continue as a trend though. Because it makes money. Cost rules all these days. No one cares about the service level, just about the profit margin. Right?
    If I seem a little hostile about this particular trend, it may be because the jobs of a few people I know are under threat as a result of it.

    1. Re:It'll get worse before it gets better... by pjwalen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Dell has recently made the smart move and relocated all their business class call centers back in to the US from India. The bottom line comes from Pleasing customers. Cutting costs is not the only way to generate revenue. I expect to see more companies follow suit, atleast when outsourcing to non-english speaking countries.

    2. Re:It'll get worse before it gets better... by gorfie · · Score: 5, Informative

      From what I've heard, they only did this for their corporate lines... OptiPlex & Latitude. If you call in for support concerning the Dimension or Inspiron lines you will still have a great deal of fun trying to communicate effectively. Of course, corporate purchases account for 85% of their sales from what I read...

    3. Re:It'll get worse before it gets better... by segment · · Score: 5, Informative
      bottom line comes from Pleasing customers Sorry to rain on your parade, but I'm sure there are plenty here who'll differ with you on Dell pleasing their customers. As for outsourcing, those on the Sunmanagers list can definitely vouch on this statement, and I in no way mean to offend anyone. For all the outsourcing going to India, I have to wonder whether American companies are losing more in the long run considering the type of quality of the work of the inexperienced.

      Ok I'm tired so I'll try to explain a bit. The majority of posts I've been seeing on the Sunmanagers mailing lists are often questions as dub as "How do I reebot my e450 thank you Jawalahar!", and that's scary. If I'm saving say $400 for outsourcing but paying $200 in downtime because an admin is a moron, $100 in downtime waiting for the idiot admin to get a reply from a mailing list, where is the savings? $100 you say? What happens if I lose customers while my business is down?

      eg:

      Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 14:11:29 -0500 (EST)
      From: Sundaram Ramasamy <sun!!@percipia.com>
      To: sunmanagers@!!sunmanagers.org
      Subject: sendmail mqueue files

      hi,

      Solaris mail server mailq command shows only two request is waiting.

      But /var/spool/mqeue has 81 files, Some of them 1 year old can I delete
      these file?

      Thanks
      SR
      Again, apologies if it seems I' nitpicking but I'm not, I just notice the majority of questions that are for one: easily resolveable to an experienced admin, easily resolveable via googling, are posted by people in countries that American chooses to use for outsourcing.
    4. Re:It'll get worse before it gets better... by tekiegreg · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yeah, I do wish they'd move their residential call centers back as well. After having an old power supply on a Dell Dimension Pentium II 350 break down, I decided to try and keep the computer running, and wanted to see if I could get an OEM power supply from Dell.

      I call their tech support number, and get a guy in India, after indicating what I want, I go to their sales department which appears to still be back in the states (American accent anyways). After saying that he can't help me, he transfers me back to India for tech support. After which I just hang up...

      Ultimately I searched the web and found someone who does sell Dell Parts including for the older computers.

      However Dell gets a Failure mark from me on this, which will affect how I buy my computers in the future. If I can't even get a straight answer about a power supply, can I get a straight answer about other issues that I could have? All I really wished for was a "Yes this is how you order your power supply" or "Sorry this power supply is no longer offered" sheesh...

      Did some of this have to do with the fact that one part of the company was in India, and the other part of this was in America, and nobody really knew who to talk to, so I could get a straight answer? Probably...

      Anyways herein another issue is realized, collaboration becomes more difficult. It is harder to instruct people on what to do, and what not to do when they aren't in the same place, and instead are half a world away. They don't go to the same management briefings, the support people never hang around the water cooler with the sales people, and in general are the last to know in any such policy changes. Thus would be the least likely to know where I could get a power supply.

      Anyways I've vented enough but hope I've provided enough insight on to the difficulties of Outsourcing vs. In-House.

      --
      ...in bed
  3. US Programmers vs Off Shore Programmers by millahtime · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Are we saying programmers in the US are more innovative than Indian, Russian or other off shore programmers?

    1. Re:US Programmers vs Off Shore Programmers by mbrinkm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I agree with your assessment 100% and would like to add that the loss of innovation does not come from the location or the individuals doing the work, but from the lack of incentive for the outsourcing company to provide innovative work. I would assume, because I don't know this to be true and please correct me if I'm wrong, that the majority of the firms that receive outsourcing contracts for programming have more than one client that they program for. Because of this they have little to no incentive to innovate for their clients, especially if they are working for two clients that compete. These companies would have ample incentive to innovate in maximizing the programming abilities of their staff, but not in the programms they create. Now if the corporations didn't outsource, but instead opened a subsidiary or branch locations for the specific purpose of programming, the loss of innovation would not exist because the same inncentives of "rising" up through the ranks or the financial incentives of your company succeding still exist. By opening these branches the company could still see the monetary gains of a cheaper workforce while providing the same incentives for innovation that they currently have.

      Yet, there are still significant downsides to "offshoring" divisions of any company, especially programming. One would be the potential of a competitor latching on to this and using it as a "Support Americans" marketing ploy, this worked quite well for the big three auto makers in the 80's, if only short lived. Another would be the long term prospects of your company. Succesful companies are built on hard working employees that prove themselves in the trenches of their respective companies, rising through the ranks to middle and upper management. I don't know of too many companies that survive on exclusively hiring individuals that have no prior experience in their industries. A good mixture of fresh with experienced management is preferrable, in my opinion, but too many of either can be a problem.

      That's my 2 cents.

      --
      "Don't worry about people stealing an idea. If it's original, you will have to ram it down their throats." --Howard Aike
  4. Gasp! Actual insight! by TopShelf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The comparison of design/assembly splits between manufacturing and software development provided some useful insight, but it's not like companies don't realize this.

    The hard part about realizing the gains from outsourcing is that most firms aren't up to managing such a long-term, strategic relationship in the manner that's required. When the work is done in-house, you can trust that the developers have your company's best interest in mind - when dealing with an outsourcer, their ultimate goal is to extract as much money from you as possible. If done right, it can be worth it, but as we've seen, many firms haven't been up to that challenge.

    --
    Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
  5. Re:Tech Consulting by sql*kitten · · Score: 5, Insightful

    So his argument isn't good - companies can still keep the design close to home and then outsource the assembly to India or China.

    Yes, but in the industry, Accenture is a byword for disaster. Every project they get involved in runs vastly over budget, is late (sometimes years late) and often doesn't even do what it was supposed to in the first place. NIRS2, anyone? Accenture (and the rest of the Big 5, EDS, etc) is a vampire feeding on the clueless... their slick suits sell gargantuan consulting and systems implementation projects to managers who are intimidated by technology. They'd get laughed out of the building if they pitched to the savvy (free tip: if any big consulting firm pitches to you, make it a condition of signing a contract that the people who do the pitch will be working full time on the project. Watch them squirm, because the consultants business model requires that they dump cheap newbies on you to free up the experienced to sell more engagements).

    I worked for Andersen Consulting (now Accenture) so I know how those guys do business. I left after two months

    Yeah, I used to be a management consultant too, so I know all the tricks :-)

  6. Re:effects by F34nor · · Score: 5, Funny

    You could always form a union of Wal-Mart greeters!

    When your on strike you could just kick everyone in the balls when they walk in and yell "GO TO A FUCKING LOCAL MERCHANT ASSHOLE!"

    It would be awesome.

  7. Bad economic security, too. by FuzzyDaddy · · Score: 5, Insightful
    There's another aspect to this, which is contractual. If you're outsourcing something sensitive or proprietary, or paying for the development of something you don't want a competitor to get for cheap, you write a contract with strict non-disclosure clauses and strong penalties for violating that. Once you leave the US, enforcing these contracts becomes prohibitivly expensive and difficult.

    --
    It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
  8. Re:At some point.... by Johnny+Mnemonic · · Score: 5, Insightful


    it will only take one piece of protectionist legislation in the US to tumble the whole house of cards

    Or for Pakistan to threaten to nuke them again, as they were doing just a few years ago. The first time a deadline is missed, and money is lost, because of instability in the region, I think we'll see lots of this work come back. Businesses don't appreciate uncertainty.

    OTOH, if outsourcing becomes entrenched enough for long enough, then it becomes in America's interest to protect their stability with our own military force projection; witness Taiwan, or military protection of oil interests in the Middle East. How long until we turn this cusp I don't know--it has to be a factor of how much of their capital investment tax-paying-and-Congress-lobbying American Corps have to lose, and if the cumulative amount is enough to risk sending US boys to die for.

    But that is the final result of India gaining outsourcing dollars--they are liable to become another Taiwan, which means that US boys might well be sent to defend India against China or Pakistan, to protect US Corp's right to unemploy those soldiers when they get home. India must appreciate having another friend in the world, considering China's expansionism and Pakistan's recent threats--so they'll be sure to play this for all it's worth, as soon as US Corps are extended there enough.

    --

    --
    $tar -xvf .sig.tar
  9. Re:But... by MisanthropicProggram · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm in a MBA program and my professors stress that out-sourcing strategic assets is a very bad idea. Because, you never know where your IP will end up - regardless of which country/company you out-source it to.
    The trend we're seeing is people who are just looking at the their numbers, which were probably fsck'd up anyway, and not at the long-term ramifications to their IP.
    I just finished a class last semester that drilled into our heads that projects can be calculated in ways that will show them to be profitable, or calculated another way, to be unprofitable. Unfortunately, there's a lot of people out there who think accounting is a science.

    --

    There is no spoon or sig.

  10. My solution. by Raven42rac · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I saw the proverbial crap hitting the fan and started looking for a job that is "impossible" to outsource. For example, I am an on-site Network Administrator/Engineer/Hardware Tech/Telephone Tech/Help Desk/All Around Nice Guy. No way in hell someone from India can do that job. Sure, they can tweak scripts or change passwords, but can they replace a CPU fan or install RAM? I do all that stuff, and I bring in candy. What more can a company ask for? Well, unless you are a Diabetic that is.

    --
    I hate sigs.
  11. long term trend by ajagci · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Realistically, "outsourcing" just is the situation when software development is cheaper in India but their US-based management doesn't want to move there. The long term resolution to that is obviously not that software development comes back to the US, the long term resolution is that management also moves to India (or wherever).

    It's really not that different from what happened in the electronics industry after all: initially, parts came from Japan, then whole devices, and now the companies themselves are Japanese. And it was the same with cars and computer hardware.

    What should the US do? There is really only one choice: if it wants to retain its strong economic position, the US needs to start the next revolution in a different field. Maybe that's biotech, nanotechnology (whatever that is) or the commercialization of space. But anybody who wants to claim a leadership position can't lean back and say "we'd just like to lean back for a while and relax on the strength of the jobs we already created".