iRiver Announces 40G Player & Previews 2004 Line

slavitos writes: "Just as we've finished our discussions of OGG support in iRiver players, the company has announced it will soon release a 40G HD player. According to this source, the new model will differ slightly from the previous 20G one - for example, the 40G player will be 3 mm thicker and 12 grams heavier. The cost of the device has not yet been determined." While we're on the topic of iRiver, thopo notes: "iRiver presented their new products coming spring 2004, here are pictures from the show, including pictures (and specs) of all new models. Especially noteworthy is the IHP-300 which comes with a 2" color TFT LCD and a very classy design. This thing got 'iPod Killer' written all over it." The page is in Korean, but most of the product descriptions in the pictures are in English.

Comments

Ipod killer

[stanmann]

How will this kill the Ipod without Itunes... IIRC Itunes only supports the Ipod.. Or does the Iriver have RTunes?

Re:Ipod killer

[haystor]

My wife was looking through iTunes and on first glance everything seemed pretty cool. But then she started pulling up old albums and I started hearing complaints:

xxx isn't on here. Ok, I can understand they haven't signed everything in the world.

Then she found someone she liked that had a bunch of albums on there. Except for the good song from each album. She cited several examples after looking for a mere 30 minutes where the popular song from an album was the only song not available from it.

Is this a common experience with iTunes?

$1 a song isn't bad unless it's $1 for each of the crappy songs in which case it's worse than buying the whole cd.

Re:Ipod killer

[aflat362]

I haven't run into that problem. Usually the partial albums have only the good songs from what I've seen.

Re:Ipod killer

[Skuld-Chan]

Most of my mp3's are not itunes files (actually I lied - none of them are) - a lot of them I made myself.

Plus this device just acts like a usb hdd when connected to your mac/pc - if you could figure out how to get your itunes files into mp3 format you're set.

Re:Ipod killer

[Aqua OS X]

True. Apple doesn't have access to everyone yet. A lot of musicians don't want to sell their music on a per track basis. They want to be able to sell whole albums. (buy the good track, and be forced to by the crappy ones) However, although those musicians don't have their music on the ITMS, they also don't have their music on any of the other music services.

Supposedly Apple has the largest collection of purchasable popular music. Some music stores beef up there numbers by posting music from unknowns, or only allowing certain albums to be accessible via a subscription. But Apple doesn't do that.

All in all, if the ITMS keeps growing like it does, and iPods keep selling like they do, other musicians will be forced to sell their music on the ITMS whether they want to or not. I'm already being to find popular artists and labels that wanted nothing to do with the service 6 months ago.

But hey, download iTunes and browse the music store for yourself. It's free. If you don't see anything you like, screw it ;)

English description of 40-GB model

[hankwang]

The 40 GB iHP-140 is described in English on their Northern Europe website. You have to click on the English flag in the upper right corner.

I'm looking very closely...

[xerxesVII]

and I don't see "i-pod killer" written anywhere on it, much less all over it.

Re:I'm looking very closely...

[arkanes]

iRiver is a huge player in the portable audio market - go to any computer store in the US and you'll probably find a selection of thier stuff. The iPod has more mind share, but that doesn't mean all the companies competing with Apple are fly-by-night nobodies.

As for creating "new categories of software"... well, when you get around to doing that let me know. Open source is largely driven by "This doesn't work for me, so I'll make something that does" feeling, and if you don't get that then you aren't really going to be able to judge it reasonably.

Re:I'm looking very closely...

[Fortunato_NC]

Yes, actually, I'm moderately familiar with the history of Ogg, if that means following it since it was covered in Linux Journal a few years back (I think it was the November or December 200 issue).

And yes, I understand the patent controversy surrounding MP3. But why exactly is it a patent uproar? Shouldn't people expect to be compensated for their work in creating something? Even if you reverse-engineered the file format to create your encoders and players, the desire to do so wouldn't exist without the original work.

And if by charging through the roof, you mean $0.75/unit for decoders, yes, I can see where Fraunhofer was being so harsh. In a $250-$500 player, that royalty can make or break a company. Besides, of the royalty free nature of Ogg is so great, then why does every Ogg player on the market also support MP3 (presumably paying Fraunhofer to do so)?

The fact of the matter is that 0.01% of Ogg users use it because they're convinced it's superior way to encode music. The rest of them do because they are contrary, self-important egomaniacs. Ogg as a technology is unimportant, no matter how many soon-to-be out of business Korean electronics manufacturers support it, because (almost) NO ONE CARES ABOUT IT!

Maybe I should have kept my mouth shut. As soon as I hit Submit on my previous, I thought of Perl as my personal favorite piece of open source software, and Perl definitely fits in the "original" category of software. But that's the beauty of Slashdot - you can shoot off at the mouth in front of the whole world!

Re:I'm looking very closely...

[aardvarkjoe]

The fact of the matter is that 0.01% of Ogg users use it because they're convinced it's superior way to encode music.

It's a well-known fact that 79.4337 percent of slashdot moderators wish that there was a "-1, pulled some statistics out of his butt" moderation.

Re:I'm looking very closely...

[Findus Krispy]

You are a either a troll, or you are serious, but have never done a blind A-B on Ogg, WMA, RealAudio, AAC, MP3, MusePak, etc and haven't heard from anyone that has. Let me inform you of my own experience.

About a year ago I decided to encode my entire CD collection (yes, a bit late to the game!) to my computer. I didn't know which codec to use and heard different things from different people, so I set up my own blind test. I encoded with each of the above codecs at five different quality settings (where this was possible) on some sample material, taking care to get the bit-rates very close to each other for fairness, and then un-encoded them all to wav again, so there could be no doubts.

Then I wrote a script to play every wav file in a given folder (one per bitrate/song part) in a random order, but recording it in a log. This is what I found:

Ogg Vorbis was the best at very-low, low, and medium bitrates, and was equal with MusePak at high bitrates. MusePak was the best at very-high bitrates (~185K), although the difference was marginal.

AAC was very good (second best) at all but very-low bitrates, but sounded a little lifeless (the sheen was removed). BTW: Worked very well with cinematic effects where had a greater clarity - the slight lifenesses that I perceived for musical material.

RealAudio was the second best at very-low bitrates, and had a beautiful, signature, analogue valve sound to it. Highly coloured, but very pleasing to listen to.

WMA pretended to be very good, but used trickery to do it (equalisation and compression), and the result was often painful on the ears (scratchy), and never melodius. This might actually be good with cheap equipment, though I didn't test this.

MP3 was the worst of the bunch. It is actually a very good codec provided that you give it enough bits; it only lost out in each round because it was noticeably inferior to the competition, but is really very good if you give it a bitrate handicap (~70K).

The result of this is that I encoded my entire CD collection with Ogg, but would also strongly reccomend MusePak (very-high bitrates), AAC (cinematic), RealAudio (Internet radio - for the cosy feeling), and MP3 (compatibility, with very high quality if you spend enough bits).

-- Make of that what you will.

Re:I'm looking very closely...

[myc]

I dunno, dude. "Self-important egomanic" is pretty harsh. Take me for example. I can't hear the difference between a 160 kbps and 128 kbps encoded file, much less the difference between ogg and mp3. Yet I encode everything to ogg (except for the time when I had my ripper set up wrong by mistake, and too lazy to re-rip :P). I think supporting Free (as in speech) Software ala RMS is a noble cause. Am I a strict adherent to the gospel according to St. Stallman? Hardly. sheeit, I use winXP :P But if a nice, Free, alternative (ogg) to proprietary/non-Free software (mp3) exists, operates seamlessly with my existing setup (Winamp + cheap ass computer speakers), then why not support it by using it? It's not like I don't try to force other ppl to use ogg, or anything like that. it simply fits my needs. I'd hardly classify myself as a self-important egomanic, as you so bluntly put.

I think ogg is a great example of Free Software. Aside from the file extension, to me (the end user) it really is no different than mp3. If only other Free Software were so easy to use (operating systems, productivity software, etc.), I would support it by using it as well.

Ogg is nice on iRiver, but what about my iPod?

[Anonymous Coward]

If Apple is so pro-open source, when are they going to add Ogg Vorbis to the iPod?

Re:Ogg is nice on iRiver, but what about my iPod?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is also pro-profit, so they'll do it when more than five people will buy iPods as a result.

Re:Ogg is nice on iRiver, but what about my iPod?

[NanoGator]

"If Apple is so pro-open source, when are they going to add Ogg Vorbis to the iPod? "

Does the iPod have the processing power to do it? It is my understanding that OGG requires more operations to decode. Corrections invited.

In any case, what's the point of cramming it in there if the general populace isn't even aware of its existence? It's one more thing to support, and doesn't guarantee a whole lot more people are going to buy iPods. From a business point of view, it's pretty cleary why they're not jumping on it.

Re:Ogg is nice on iRiver, but what about my iPod?

[Darren Winsper]

Quite some time ago, when Linux was first put onto the iPod, an early version of Tremor (An integer-only Vorbis decoder) was running at around 80% realtime. Seeing as there have been various performance and memory optimisations during that time, it's possible they may be able to get it to work.

Oh, the general populace isn't aware of AAC's existance either and there's still plenty of room on the iPod's firmware, so why not?

Different

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

the new model will differ slightly from the previous 20G one - for example, the 40G player will be 3 mm thicker and 12 grams heavier.

and have a 40G drive instead of a 20G?

Classy design?

[Patik]

I don't know, I thought the PMP-100 and the PMC-100 looked much cooler. The first appears to have a bigger screen and less wasted space than the IHP-300.

0GB version?

[magarity]

Be nice if there was a no-HDD included version; standard size 2.5 inch disks can be had mailorder for cheaper than the difference in the various models' prices. All mp3 makers are guilty of this. Of course, that would cut into their nice margins on the high capacity models so we won't see it. sigh

Re:0GB version?

[Frac]

Be nice if there was a no-HDD included version; standard size 2.5 inch disks can be had mailorder for cheaper than the difference in the various models' prices. All mp3 makers are guilty of this. Of course, that would cut into their nice margins on the high capacity models so we won't see it. sigh

All product manufacturers are guilty of this. We need companies that will ship out nothing but a huge thick manual, so they can teach us where to mine the metal, cast the metal cover, etch out the circuit boards, etc etc.

Damn these companies that try to charge us for the extra work!

Re:If this thing is a portable 40GB...

[grub]

Decoding video requires a lot more horsepower than audio. My Egoman MP3/VCD player will only play VCD when plugged into the wall. RCA jacks take up a lot of room on the board, it's easier to use a minijack -> RCA adapter cable (they're cheap)

Different Class of device than iPod

[piznut]

Its cheaper, but not quite as good looking or easy to use as the iPod...as an mp3 player

The killer feature for the new iRiver devices is the recording ability. iPod and a handful of other devices can record voice at a low bitrate.

The iRiver (IHP-120 and i am assuming the new models) can record from a digital input or microphone into a high quality mp3 or wav file.

So in addition to being a decent mp3 platform, it could also stand to replace portable MD and DAT recorders. This is a great thing for musicians and bootleggers. While the onboard mic-preamp isn't the best in the world, it appears to be from what Ive read, suitable for most applications.

Re:Different Class of device than iPod

[theLOUDroom]

Its cheaper, but not quite as good looking or easy to use as the iPod...as an mp3 player

I disagree. I think this thing is better looking than the ipod and much easier to use. One thing that really bothers me about the ipod is the lack of tactile feedback. To me, this is just another example of Apple's "form over function" mentality...like the "hockey puck" mouse. Maybe some people thought those looked good, but I think my logitech mouse is both nicer looking, AND it actually fits my hand.

I agree the the recording ability is great though. Another thing the iriver has is the nicest wired remote I've seen on any portable music player, period. I was also shocked by the number of extras that came in the box: line in cable, external mic, headphone extension, leather case and of course earbuds, usb cable and power supply.

Alpine/iPod integration

[burgburgburg]

Alpine has announced that they will demonstrating at CES the first solution that allows users to connect/control their iPod through their in-car system. They'll be able to view playlist, artists, songs, etc. through the Alpine's receiver buttons. And the connector will also charge the iPod. To get more info, write to ipodready@alpine-usa.com.

slashdot and pictures

[bdigit]

the words "here are the pictures" and slashdot should never go together. We all know it never works out in the end.

New Math?

[LocoSpitz]

iTunes claims "over" 500000 songs. Napster claims the same, MusicMatch advertises 360000, and BuyMusic says 327000. How this gives iTunes 10x as many songs as the other three combined is a mystery to me.

Require ID3 Tags?

[Robert Hayden]

Does it require ID3 tags to play and navigate directories of MP3s like the iPOD? Or can I just copy over an artist/album/tracks sorted directory structure and navigate it that way?

Re:Require ID3 Tags?

[Keeper]

If it works anything like their cd based mp3 players, it will use the id3 tags if present, and fall back to filenames if not present.

High level organization of files is done through the directory structure.

IE:

root\
--> album1
--> album2
--> my favorites

You can navigate through the directories and see the files in each subdirectory. I haven't noticed a way to see all of the files on the unit regardless of what directory they are in (but I've never really cared either...). You can have the player play all files, or files in just a particular directory. You can also have the player play files randomly on the disc, or randomly in a particular directory.

I think there is also a way to create playlists, but I've never messed with it.

It's got to make up a lot of ground

[Dixie_Flatline]

One of the things that Steve Jobs mentioned in his keynote yesterday before announcing the entirely overpriced iPod Mini is that about 60% of the market is flash players that cost up to $200. 31% of the market is iPods. Approximately 7% of the market is all other non-iPod hard-drive based MP3 players. Nobody knows what an iRiver is. Most people don't CARE what an iRiver is. The iPod name has mindshare right now, and it'll take a lot more than even a massively superior product to dethrone the iPod. If someone wants to make an iPod killer, they have to have iPod killing marketing. Right now, people are using the word 'iPod' like they use 'Xerox' or 'Kleenex', as in "I hear iRiver makes a pretty cool iPod."

It doesn't matter what it costs, either. The only people following non-iPod HD-based MP3 players are the people here on /. :P

Re:It's got to make up a lot of ground

[NaugaHunter]

it'll take a lot more than even a massively superior product to dethrone the iPod.

If there's one thing Apple should have learned over the years, it's that extensive marketing will overcome virtually any technologically superior product. It'd be nice to see them on the winning side of this arrangement for a change.

Re:It's got to make up a lot of ground

[cens0r]

Nobody knows what an iRiver is. Most people don't CARE what an iRiver is.

At one time you could have said the same thing about Honda, Toyota, Nissan, or even Dell. But if/when you start selling a superior product and a better price you often times will gain mind share and market share.

Image mirror

[markclong]

http://slushdot.org/mirror/iriver/board.php

Minus all the other crap.

iPod killer... where have I heard that before?

[freerangegeek]

If I had a dollar for every "iPod killer" that's been announced, I could buy a nice new iPod mini!

Re:iPod killer... where have I heard that before?

[smart.id]

And by next month, you'll have enough to get more than 3 times the space!

Can I run Linux on it?

[after]

I can run Linux on Ipod but will one have the support to house my distro?

people who don't properly tag their mp3s

[Anonymous Coward]

make baby jesus cry.

iTunes != iTMS

[nosferatu-man]

I like the way the iTMS works, but I don't buy much music there, as most of what I want is not on the Big Five. To me, the biggest iPod win is not .m4p (FairPlay burdened AAC) from the Music Store. The big win is the integration between iTunes the music jukebox/ripper/&c. and the iPod. It's seamless; they are really two parts of the same tool.

'jfb

Re:iTunes != iTMS

[the_2nd_coming]

which is what makes the iPod so much better than the competitors....it transcends hardware and software.....it is sof-rdware, one cohesive tool that works like magic where as the other players out there require crappy organizer software or only use explorer.

Re:iTunes != iTMS

[FuzzyBad-Mofo]

Bleh, who can still listen all the way through _Stairway to Heaven_ anymore, anyway? :p

Re:iTunes != iTMS

[dr.badass]

I won't give them a break if they're intentionally hiding the good songs on otherwise crap albums

Blame the record company. They decide what makes it onto the store and what doesn't much more than Apple does. In this case, and many others, the particular song is probably missing because the record company knows that it would cut into album sales to have that track available by itself.

Other times, it's because the (or one of the) songwriters hasn't given permission for that kind of distribution.

Other times, it's because the (or one of the) copyright holder of a sample used in the song hasn't given permission of that kind of distribution.

So, there are lots of reasons that certain songs might be missing. But it's extremely doubtful that Apple is doing such a thing intentionally.

It won't

[swordboy]

How will this kill the Ipod without Itunes...

Itunes or not, even Apple have realized that the average Joe doesn't have anywhere near 40 gigs of music.

nice, but where's the firmware for iHP120?

[PeterChenoweth]

A nice improvement to the existing iHP line, but iRiver should be concentrating on fixing the *numerous* bugs in the current firmware of the iHP-100/120 series. Such as ....

1. Shuffle still isn't random (just all your tracks in a different order - but always the same order)

2. Doesn't support any type of secure files.

3. DB application can't handle OGG or WMA file tags, so you can only search by Artist/Album/Genre if it's an mp3 file.

4. No on-the-fly playlist ability, and very limited playlist ability at all (only when using the Beta firmware that's been out since November).

It _CAN_ support DRM, dumbass.

[Ayanami Rei]

In fact, AAC doesn't really support DRM either. It's a hack using a special stream entity to mark it as encrypted so the player knows to fetch a decryption key (hidden from the user by the firmware/iTunes)

OGG is a container format that has tons of ways to add in custom markings (including arbitrary attribute strings...) one of those could be used in a similar fashion to mark the bitstream as encrypted.

Plus it already plays unencrypted files (the only kind it DOES support is AAC).
So... not a good reason.

Re:ipod killer?

[Fjord]

Isn't that kind of like the charisma of Al Gore?

No, it's much worse. Al Gore was at least able to get more that half the voting populace to vote for him (even if the electoral division made this moot).

Re:No disk, no flash, just a CF slot.

[frooddude]

Frontier Labs. There's your answer... although there's no support for Ogg.. they claim there will be at some point. Frontier Labs And here's a place that sells it pretty cheap... Inside Computer

I just bought one

[VividU]

The 20GB player. Here is super-quick review from a professional audio engineer (me).

Pros:
- The output sound is tight, crisp and full-bodied. The level is clean and hot, just the way I like it.
- Plug-N-Play. No drivers, no nothing. Plug the USB cable and it shows up as a HD. Organize files however you like. By ID or standard directory structure.
- The remote has its own tiny LCD dispay. Very cool.
- USB 2.0 file transfer if very fast. I did 12GB while I ate a bowl of cereal.
- Transfer & store any type of file
- Its supports more codecs than I'll ever use.
- OGG support. No DRM
- Digital In and Out!
- Analog In and Out!
- Records to WAV and MP3
- FM Radio!
- Internal Microphone
- External Mic jack (mic included)
- Firmware upgradable
- Quiet and fast
- Its packaged with a real leather case and all the cables and adapters you'll ever need.

Cons:
- The GUI could use some work
- The Joystick can be a pain
- Navigation can be rough
- Issues with Recording time limitations

Its looks like the software faults can and will be upgraded through the firmware.

Overall a great little package. Its not as slick as the iPod. But for less than the 20GB iPod I get a ton of more features.

Re:I just bought one

[Jesus IS the Devil]

That's called a FM modulator. Many devices have this capability. For example, some CD changers are hooked up this way. iPod also has a plugin which allows you to do this.

HOWEVER, watch out! There are some downsides to this technology:

1) Loss of quality - Because it's being converted to radio frequency there's a bit of quality loss. For audiophiles this is enough to say, "no thanks".

2) Bad reception - I don't have first hand experience, but from what I've heard from others, if you are travelling under power lines the music will warp. If you come across an area where there's a radio frequency in or around that band you'll get static.

So, overall, while it appears to be an easy solution, I'd skip it just because I don't want to give up that much sound quality. I mean, an install might involve some hassle, but you only have to do it once. :)

Not that common...

[SuperKendall]

I've noticed that problem with a few bands, but most of the music I've looked at is complete. One artist I like (Barenaked Ladies) you could even buy the full CD of songs a week before the real CD was released in stores!

I would submit a request for that particular song to the iTunes request section, they really do pay attention to that as whole artists and songs I've asked for have appeared.

Re:MORE PICTURES!

[thopo]

sorry, here is clickable: http://club.iriver.co.kr/column/view.asp?Page=1&Sr chItem=&SrchString=&idx=370

Re:Different Class of device ... - CHEAPER? Not

[BlackStar]

Wandering through the link of iRiver nordic, and looking at the Swedish site, the 20 GB player (no colour screen, 20 GB, older generation) is 5.495 Kr, which translates into $985.90 Canadian Loonies at today's exchange rate, or $765 US bucks for our southern neighbours.

I may not have a math degree, but if the low end iRiver is more than the 40 Gig iPod, I really don't understand "cheaper".

Of course, the Swedish price may not hold and may be artificially high at this point, but that's the only info I have to go on to gauge price. The built-in FM tuner is kind of cool. Looks like a freaking gadget hell though. The iPod is designed a lot nicer IMHO.

Re:Different Class of device ... - CHEAPER? Not

[skiflyer]

I see it for $359 by searching on Amazon, I'd say the swedish price is completely goofed at this point.

To kill or not to kill is really not the point.

[Johnathon_Dough]

Why does everything have to be a "killer", especially in the techno/geek world?

I am no huge propenant of "why can't we all get along", but whenever i see another compnay come out with any sort of decent product, my first thought is not "oh this will knock xyz product from the top spot" but "oh good, now xyz product is also going to have to improve".

This is how our market works (overly simplified, yes). If there was no competition, you would have no reason to improve your product, whatever you came out with would be the only choice.

So instead of constantly assuming something is going to "kill" another product. Just buy the one you like, that has the features you need, make the trade off for the features the other has that the one you are buying doesn't. Most importantly, realize, that once a product has a significant market share, and backing by the company that makes it (a nod to netscape here) it is not going away.

Just keep hoping that there IS someone to compete with apple for the hard drive mp3 market, because if not, then Apple will truly become the "microsoft of music" with all the problems attached to that.

0gg

[Deraj DeZine]

"OGG" is incorrect. The correct capitalization is "Ogg." More info at the official Vorbis news page and the associated Ogg Traffic:

With an ever-increasing adoption of Ogg Vorbis, I'm seeing an increasing number of new users refer to it as OGG. This is a trend that I would like to counter with this piece of authoritative information: It's not OGG, it is Ogg! You may think that this is an insignificant difference, but I don't think so...It is a word, not an acronym, and it's pronounced like Dog without the letter D.