Slashdot Mirror
8th Grader Suspended for Using 'net send' Command
HRH King Lerxst writes: "The Fort Worth Star-Telegram has an article detailing how a middle school student was suspended for three days for 'hacking.' His hack? Sending a popup message to the other computers in the school...from within the shcool." The 8th grader in question used the "net send" command to send a single word message ("Hey!") to the 80 machines tied to his school's network. How this can be construed as "hacking", I leave up to you.
...because the people in charge (Teachers, parents, school board, etc) don't understand what's going on.
It's just that simple. Whenever someone does something with a computer that they don't understand, it's hacking. A High School friend of mine got accused of 'hacking' by downloading Netscape once.
Fear and ignorance, ignorance and fear...
=Smidge=
I did this once in high school (probably around 10th grade -- 13 years ago?..)
Sent a message "hi" to the cafeteria terminal (with the name of the "lunchlady" on it.) Apparently, to my chagrin, it actually froze the cafeteria application that was running. I did it outside of normal cafeteria hours, so it didn't cause too much fuss, but my account became suspended... stupid me for using my own account and not a "student" generic id at the time.
I was never spoken to about it, and just accepted the locked out account as punishment... a few months later, after an upgrade, my account was unlocked. I learned to not do stuff like that again, or if you do do it, just to think first and act later... use an anonymous account, from a machine that's used by more than a few students a day...
Karnal
One wonders if using writing as a form of punishment could be giving kids the impression that writing is an unpleasant task, which would diminish their desire to spend effort on any future writing tasks.
From the article the teacher was quoted as saying, "Hacking into a system should be highest on the list of tampering violations. I believe the other students are now aware that the district takes this seriously and will not tolerate such misuse of our equipment." In addition to "Rollins told me that students had been using campus computers in unacceptable ways, and he hoped to make an example of Carl."
It looks like to me that the teachers can't/won't secure the computers and decided to throw the book at the first kid to do something that they were able to catch in hopes that it scares the others into submission.
The writer seems to get two important things - that using net send is certainly not hacking, and deeming it so is demonstrative of the school district's lack of understanding of a subject area they purport to teach.
How about emailing the principal of that school and telling him what you think of his actions?
meh.
It's a rite of passage to do things like this. Hell when I was in highschool we learned how to do this on Unix, and every training course I have taken someone has done something similar, be it to reboot someone's machine or send messages.
"The objective of securing the safety of Americans from crime and terror has been achieved." -- John Ashcroft
This is exactly what's wrong with our education system. The computer teacher said in an email to the reporter, "If [the students] are allowed to experiment and do things on the computers that the teachers have not specifically given them permission to do, we would never get any computer education accomplished." Experimentation *is* a form of education, arguably the most effective form. If I had a student in her class, I would demand her resignation.
How is what he did wrong in any way? If it was disruptive, the systems should have been configured to not allow the action in the first place.
If you suspend students for trying commands or programs they aren't familiar with, what you end up doing is teaching them to be afraid of computers. About the only redeeming quality of putting computers in schools is making children comfortable with them, and you want to take that away and instill fear of suspension for trying something new.
If you want to point fingers, point it at the ones who configured the computers. And the administration who suspended on a first offense rather than simply disabling the program.
Sure, but I wonder if paper/detention/whatever is really WARRANTED. A verbal warning should have been MORE than sufficient, considering the incident is so absolutely minor as to be worthless.
Maybe I'm biased, though.. I nearly got suspended for miskeying ctrl-something or another years ago on an old Apple 2 wordprocessor. The thing beeped, the instructor freaked, and I was accused of hacking. I was just lucky that someone with a CLUE caught the situation and defused it before it got all the way to the top and I ended up suspended..
One thing's for sure-- I think the fearmongering amongst the ignorant teachers and administration needs to stop. This has been out of control for a long time..
No, if they are allowed to experiment and do things ANYWHERE that they have not been given specific permission to do, it's called learning. Why should computers be any different?
He learned this command from his father and decided to experiment with it at school. Are educators now in the business of making children afraid to experiment and learn?
Back when I was in elementary school we were encouraged to experiment with computers as long as we followed the guidelines. If we encountered an issue where the guidelines were unclear on, our teacher told us what we did that may proove to be problematic later and the guidelines were updated.
It would be interesting to note if the school has updated their guidelines on this topic and have take the (simple) steps necessary to insure this doesn't happen again, but saying that what this kid did was wrong is borderlining on the dangerous.
Is it any wonder why some people grow up afraid to learn computers? I'd hazard to say maybe we'd do well to have better trained educators and more concise guidelines rather than knee-jerk suspensions and "computer educators" that don't know how to secure their own networks, nor how to handle the children whom the parents put in their care!
Teachers could NOT keep up with the kids in computer classes, which left a whole slew of kids "left behind" per se (thanks Bush).
Maybe it's me, but this sounds to be more of a problem with the teachers (and possibly the local school board) than anything Bush has done...
The federal government somehow gets blame or credit for the condition of public schools, but people forget that public schools are really local institutions. Only about 7% of Elementary and Secondary education funding comes from the Federal government. School policies and curriculums are set at the local and state level; The Federal government can ususally only make recommendations or support specific programs.
If your school's policies are stupid, chances are your local government is the responsible party, not the federal government. The good thing about this, however, is that it's pretty easy for you to go voice your opinion at your local school board meeting. Flying to D.C. to have a chat with the President is a little more difficult.
"I could understand the suspension if he sent "fuck you" to everybody on the LAN. Since he didn't, we obviously have to look at the incompetent network administrator."
The administrator didn't cause the mischief, the student did. He disrupted EVERYBODY using a computer on that network. It's roughly the equivalent of blowing a fart sound on his arm in a full classroom.
I agree that the punishment may have been a little heavy (gee, the poor kid stays home and plays his GameCube instead of dealing with bullies at school, the tragedy) but you really shouldn't go blaming the administrator because the kid did something he knew he shouldn't have.
As for the administrator, the whole purpose of a computer network is for the machines to communicate. He could disable net send, whoopee, somebody else would find another way to do it. The computers are there for the students to learn with. Best to teach them good net-iquette than to lock down the machines to the point that they're really not all that useful.
"Derp de derp."
The ability of the vitriolic liberal to take a subject and warp it to his own perverse ends never ceases to amaze.
Heard any good Ghandi jokes lately?
BC
If the messages were a flaw which he exploited, it would be reasonable to call what he did hacking. It was not. It is not.
We who were living are now dying
With a little patience
Funny how you spin a tech guy hired at a grade-school to be GW Bush's downfall.
Like him or not, this is *not* the presidents fault.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"
- Charles Darwin
Thanks Bush? wtf?
How the hell long have you been in (or out) of school? Clueless computer teachers have been around for a LOOOONG time, and this has nothing to do with the current president.
Actually, I blame the principal, the district AND the administrator! I do alot of volunteer work at my son's school as a technologist. I fix the machines, install network runs, etc. I'm also the president of the PTA that pays the two computer lab assistants.
I think this was like dropping a nuke on a kid with a lemonaide stand because they didn't have a business license!
Yep -the kid did the equivalent of a farting noise in the classroom. That is objectionable behavior - so some disciplinary action is reasonable - but suspension?
Further - this district has NO PUBLISHED POLICY on whether this was appropriate behavior or not! So they use the nuclear option! That's shear nonsense...let the punishment fit the crime. Why not a letter home to the parents, and let them discipline the kid???????
In my kid's district there is a published acceptable computer usage policy, a published discipline policy with a graduated response, and a requirment that teachers will oversee the computer usage. Lastly, parents have to sign documents saying they have reviewed all of the above. So no surprises!
In my mind, not having all of these policies in place puts the district and staff in the guilt column right there along with the kid - Gee - you broke a rule I just made up so I'm throwing you out of school. That doesn't play well with me!
Have you compiled your kernel today??
Dear Mr. Rollins,
_ li eber/7643262.htm
Before continueing, I might want to inform you that the following article has appeared on a major internet website, one visited by tens of thousands of technicians and other professionals a day. You may want to prepare your inbox.
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/columnists/dave
As per the content of the article, it may be biased, but I am writing to assure you of the following:
The "net send" command is in no way a 'hacking' tool. "Net" is a command used by windows/windows-users for many network tasks, and "net send" is a communication command which does not adversely affect any machine.
Furthermore, the punishment for this "offense" seems neither fair nor warranted? You may not think that I have any cognisance of the type of things that occur in schools, but I can assure you - as an IT support technician/admin for a school-district - that I know a great deal about it. This problem would have been easily dealt with, and any issues caused by it not warranting such a punishment.
Furthermore, the student - in investigating parts of computing that are obscure to many - seems to be showing promise and intelligence. To attack the natural curiousity of the student is to stifle his natural inclination to learn and investigate. Rather than punishment, you should consider giving the student materials to learn about computing in a way that might be more productive and advanced than "net send."
Certainly I myself did a certain amount of investigating and playing with such commands when I first gained interest in computing. As my teachers promoted my curiousity I eventually found a lucrative career in both computer programming and administration. Had such a punishment been meted to me, it may have impaired the drive which brought me to my current employment.
Please consider that while the commands used may be obscure to many, they are not highly technical nor dangerous in nature. An offensive action taken against the unknown is neither ethical nor mature in nature, and such reactions should be the bane of modern education.
Sincerely,
(my name here)
IT Support Administration
(and yes, I do work in educational IT support. suspension for net send would be laughable in comparison to the other things students try to do or do here)
I expect this type of reaction from school boards. Let's think about it...
What competent person capable of landing a decent job programing or in IT would settle for teaching computer courses at the middle school level.
Sure, I might find the odd kid who is geeky enough to be enjoyable teaching, but I don't think it would be enough to keep anyone challenged.
A computer teacher is still a teacher, with teacher's credentials and training. I doubt you can find truly competent people (competent in real IT/development fields) who would teach grade 8 students to use Microsoft Paint.
At the board's "liaison" level, I would expect more perhaps, but we can see that this is not the case, at least not within the board mentioned.
This is a case of someone placed into a position at a board level who SHOULD know a deal more about IT and "hacking", but they do not. This woman reacted on fear and ignorance. And in her ignorance, she fails to be an educator at all, with a nice healthy dose of arrogance towards questoins, with another big ignorant cherry on top by falsely claiming that the right decision was made.
She doesn't even realize that she's ignorant in the first place.
That right there is exactly the problem. American public schools are broke. The federal government could give them more money; but they value tanks more highly than literacy, and don't want to deprive the wealthy of even a single ounce of caviar by taxing them.
Why exactly is it the Federal Government's job to fund local institutions like public schools? Does the federal government pay the salary of your local police and fire departments? Of course not...why should they? Do you really want your local cops under the control of John Ashcroft?!
Not every school is America is broke. Many have problems that are more policy oriented than fiscal. It's the job of local governments to decide how much they want to tax thier constituents in order to support public schools. Shifting the burden to the federal government is just robbing Peter to pay Paul.
There is not one magical funding fix that can be applied to every school in the U.S. in order to make things better. Real solutions have to be implemented on a case by case basis, which means they have to be done locally. Just saying "Make the Feds pay for it!" isn't going to solve anything.
"Students should not be of the opinion that it is acceptable to abuse the privileges that are afforded them by the taxpayers. If they are allowed to experiment and do things on the computers that the teachers have not specifically given them permission to do, we would never get any computer education accomplished.
I think that "abuse" is a strong word to use. Did he receive permission to send a communication to other systems? Probably not. This could have been handled by the instructor in the classroom. A simple "Please refrain from messaging all systems on the network." would have sufficed. Definitely, this child is a hacker, though not in the definition espoused by the media. He did not crack any system. Had this Sweeney individual been intelligent enough, she would have isolated the computer lab from all systems on the net to prevent such an occurence. Perhaps she should be supsended for her dereliction in security practice! Furthermore, in this instance, who taught who? I don't believe that this Sweeney character deserves the respect that the moniker "teacher" commands. She may have been a public educator for many years, but that does not make her a "teacher". She isn't "teaching" anyone, she apparently squashes the already difficult-to-encourage motivation for learning that her pupils displayed. I would imagine that she rotely follows her lesson plan making small changes as the "fads" develop. Her "experimentation" that she frowns upon is precisely what drives a child's desire to learn. Not the tedious hum-drum that is today's modern class. I wonder why American education is not where it should be in relation to other industrialized nation, and then I read an article such as this that anwers a lot of my questions. Thank you educator Sweeney for setting the example for poor instructors!
To know is to have knowledge....to understand is to be enlightened.
The way I see it, this is just a symptom of the larger problem: that of non-programmers who literally do not know ANYTHING about computers per se defining "computer literacy" as being able to run a few M$ pointy-clicky apps--because that's all they know how to do.
Now it's not a problem if these people stay in the f-ing typing pool, graphic arts sweatshops, stupid little bookkeeping jobs, or teaching history where they bleeding well belong. It does become a problem when the Beverly Sweeneys of this world get positions of authority which they're fundamentally unqualified to fill, and find themselves feeling threatened by anyone who knows more than themselves--and acting on their feelings of inadequacy with high-handedness.
Having a Beverly Sweeney teaching Integrated Technology Applications because she got a cert or two in running a few pointy-clicky M$ Applications is like hiring someone as a music teacher because they know how to play CDs on their stereo, who then busts students who play an actual musical instrument in class -- because it's not "an approved application". Sheesh!
Instead of over-reacting and lynching the kid for being criminally-inclined they could easily have made this a stern warning and a lesson to the kids.
- A lesson in socially acceptable behaviour on The Net
- A lesson in privacy (and the lack thereof) on The Net
- A re-education on how to show off "new and cool" to the class
This could have been a great opportunity to turn disruptive behaviour into constructive learning experiences, but instead they stuck their head in the sands and cried "hacker" (which is actually unfashionable, these days they need to be crying "terrorist").(yeah that was kinda cool, but rude)
(look how easily and instantly we found you)
(know something cool about computers? bring it to 'tech show-and tell'... be cool without getting suspended)
Unfortunately the education system is geared to teaching children, as opposed to helping them learn.
(ie remember all the things we tell you, but above all else remember that thinking for yourself is not permitted)
"I'm sorry, that information is not a part of our curriculum. You're suspended."
Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
Did the administrators of the school intend for the messages to be used in such a way? Of course not.
Perhaps their setup was flawed, that such messages were allowed to be sent from any computer to all computers?
It seems like the student then exploited that flaw.
I have been saying for a while that popup spammers should be prosecuted for malicious hacking, and my stance on that doesnt magically change when someone from my team is effected.
Kids will always go around finding flaws in the network and doing all that they can with them, all in good fun. I enjoyed it when I was in school, I enjoy it now (among friends). Three days suspension is uncalled for, there's no reason for more than maybe a detention (which is also uncalled for, but you can't really get any lower than that). Pretending that he used them "As Intended", wasnt doing anything wrong, so shouldnt face any consequence? Are you a troll?
Yes, a message of "Hey!" is obviously not malicious, he's just seeing what he can get the system to do. The only reason he recieved more than a "Don't do that!" is to prevent other students from doing the same thing.
But he was not using the computer as was intended.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
The farther removed schools are from the decision makers, the worse they perform. When states started taking control of the schools away from local school boards, educational quality began to really suffer. Decisions regarding schools became purely political plays. Now that there is more federal involvement, American schools are nearly at a crisis, with a growing segment of society practically uneducated. Someone who cannot figure out what 10% of 100 is without a calculator is uneducated, regardless of any degree they may hold. My point is, schools only perform well when there is accountability. When parents have power over local school officials who make decisions on how to run the school, the results are always better than being subject to the whims of vote seeking politicians. Yes, I know, school board members are elected, but who would actually serve on a school board if they didn't truely value education?
The control issue is real. Why?
I think it is all the lawyers. When I went to school, things were not as bad. The staff had a lot more options compared to today.
Schools do not teach ethics and citizenship. Afraid they might offend somebody. In fact, most of the problems today boil down to lame procedures designed by lawyers to maintain a high level of "liability managment."
The schools would not have to go through the crap they have to today, if the parents were more involved. Nothing worse than a problem kid with rich, uninvolved parents willing to sue the school when something happens to their kid.
I have 4 kids and stay right on top of what they are doing in school. Takes a lot of time most of my peers are not willing to give. As they get older, the differences are beginning to show.
As an involved parent, I am qualified to say this would not happen with my kid. The suspension is bullshit plain and simple. Schools are supposed to be places where we build new citizens one kid at a time. Giving smart kids the smackdown because the staff is too uninformed to understand their behaviour is sensless.
The schools work for us. They don't often want to admit that, but the truth is they do. With this particular kid, they have just sent a message and shaped a couple of values in his mind that are unacceptable at best, scarring at worst.
In this case, both are at fault. The school being driven by its lawyers and the state instead of its responsibility to society, and the parents for letting this crap stand.
I know the schools have it tough, but if this were my kid, I would be in the office that day, and would stay until the suspension was revoked. Clearly the educators need to get some education themselves, and I would press this point hard.
Nobody wants a lawsuit over something this small, but we don't want our kids becoming compliant drones either.
In my experience, once this is explained to the staff, this sort of thing goes away pretty quickly. When they realize they are going to deal with a parent who knows the rules and the law and cares about their kid, they back off and pester the other kids whose parents don't care.
Another thing about this that burns my ass: I would be happy to work with kids in school for a few years. I have a lot to give, practical experience, and enjoy the subject matter. Plenty of other people I know are in a similar position.
You would think the State government would have programs in place to take advantage of this for technical subject matter, but they don't. Sorry if I offend a teacher or two, but the truth is most grade / high school computer educators really have no clue. I am sure they are fine people, working hard to make the best of the situation they are in, but still it sucks to know my kids could be getting much better...
Blogging because I can...
"It didn't say who it came from. I just deleted it."
Actually, he ckicked the "OK" button underneath:
Remember: umount it before you fsck it.
Actually, odds are you'd be using a proprietary OS on a, oh, DEC PDP-11 or something.
No, she wouldn't. Without MS braindead apps, idiots like her would probably be teaching typing on IBM Selectric typewriters.
Someone with an IQ as low as her's couldn't possibly handle anything other than a GUI.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
That 7% is critical to schools today. If they refuse it, it leaves huge gaping chasms in their budgets. Especially given the costs of federal demands for equal access, special education, et al.
But, that 7% comes with hefty strings (more like high-tensile ropes) attached. Including things such as near a week of testing each year (meaning a week with no teaching), and mandating which test is used (thereby in part mandating the curriculum), and accepting the risk of being labeled a failing school and penalized if even one sub-population in your school underperforms by even 1%, with monetary and policy penalties for being a failing school.
The feds have an impact on local school policies completely out of proportion to their 7% funding level.
This doesn't necessarily imply ignorance. What better way of validating that he was the "culprit" than having him show his actions?
This isn't to say that most public school computer people aren't morons, though.
Sharpies don't just sniff themselves.