RFID Casino Chips

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Posted by michael on Friday January 9, 2004 @09:32AM from the dealing-from-the-bottom-of-the-deck dept.

scubacuda writes "Could casinos be the next Gillette or Wal-Mart? New Scientist and others report that casinos could soon start using RFID tags to spot counterfeits and thefts, and also to monitor the behaviour of gamblers. Embedded RFID tags should make the chips much harder to counterfeit, and placing tag readers at staff exits could cut down on theft by employees. (With companies like Infosys helping clients identify and plan pilot RFID projects, we'll no doubt be seeing more and more companies dabbling in this area. Those interested in reading objections to RFID use should check out the position paper issued by CASPIAN, EPIC, Privacy Rights Clearinghouse, Junkbusters, ACLU, Meyda Online, EFF, and PrivacyActivism.)"

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Ouch for card counters... by cayenne8 · 2004-01-09 09:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

They can more easily monitor your swing of bet levels......

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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
1. Re:Ouch for card counters... by cayenne8 · 2004-01-09 09:47 · Score: 4, Insightful
  
  Card counting is ALWAYS legal, as long as there is no mechanical assistance...
  :-)
  But, most casinos don't allow you to play BJ there is they think you are a counter. I've never heard of a casino being 'advantage' player friendly. If they did, I can only guess they'd have the worst possible game set up...as far as dealer stands, payoffs...shuffle after each deal.
  
  --
  Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
2. Re:Ouch for card counters... by glorf · 2004-01-09 09:56 · Score: 5, Insightful
  
  The article talks mainly about being able to identify the chips as being authentic. I think that installing the equipment at each betting spot on the table to read the different IDs, lookup the dollar value in a central database and do the math to figure out total bet would be a little much. It would take some serious hardware to do real-time tracking of every chip in play. Considering that dealers, pit-bosses and the eye in the sky already are fairly good at catching counters (who can't take the casino for too much if they don't want to get banned), I don't think the ROI would be there for such a massive system.
  
  Having a few readers in the cage to verify authenticity before giving out cash in exchange, would be a much more efficient use of RFID.
3. Re:Ouch for card counters... by Pave+Low · 2004-01-09 10:00 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  I believe there's already technology that can constantly monitor bettings, though I'm not sure how widely its implemented. The eye in the sky can see that without RFID.
  Anyways, spotting a lone card counter really isn't that hard anyways. To be a really effective counter, your betting levels needs to swing wildely from 10-1 if you're using a hi-lo count, and pit bosses can see it a mile away.
  It's team play that is really hard for casinos to spot, like when a spotter can call other people in when a shoe is hot, and they can bet huge.
  
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4. Re:Ouch for card counters... by B'Trey · 2004-01-09 10:08 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  Even if that's true, which I'm not at all certain of, I don't see it as an issue. You have no right to card counting.
  
  In fact, I don't see this as an issue at all. The casino already knows how many chips I buy, they can keep track of how many I win, and I cash them in before I leave.
  
  The real issue with RFIDs is that they can be used to track people over time, and for purposes much different than their announced use. I'd have absolutely no problem with Wal-Mart (or whoever) using RFIDs to track inventory if they were somehow turned off when I purchased the merchandise, somewhat like the magnetic devices that are currently used for anti-theft measures.
  
  --
  "The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.
5. Re:Ouch for card counters... by leonardluen · 2004-01-09 10:23 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  those continuous shufflers aren't allways as good as the casino wants them to be...you are correct that you can't count them, but i believe sometimes they can have patterns as to how they shuffle.
  
  some people are really good at tracking a shuffle of a normal dealer, i have seen it done before without use of anything but your own brain...you can use some of these same techniques on a continuous shuffler. it is a lot harder than counting though!
  
  and it is a good thing that not everyone counts(successfully) otherwise all the casinos would switch to these continuous shufflers.
6. Re:Ouch for card counters... by bigbigbison · 2004-01-09 11:36 · Score: 3, Insightful
  
  You could do that to one or two chips and get away with it. But if you come in with a whole pocket full of them, they would probably kick you out and bar you.
  
  Casinos are all about trying to make the customer happy so they can take their money. The minute you go from someone they can make money from to someone they suspect is trying to unfairly take money from them they start playing hardball.
  
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  http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
7. Re:Ouch for card counters... by Prong · 2004-01-09 13:02 · Score: 3, Insightful
  Casinos like to foster 2 myths about card counting. First, that it's illegal (it's not), and second that you'll be declared persona non grata if they "catch" you doing it. The truth is that casinos tolerate counters on a regular basis, for a number of reasons:
  
  Card counting is damn hard. As an exercise, cut 20 random coupons out of the Sunday supplement, memorize the products and the discounts. Go to your local supermarket, buy a normal week's groceries, taking advantage of the coupons (without looking at them), and factoring in the "advantage buys". If you're single, buy 2 weeks, with an eye on the stuff you don't buy much (toilet paper, cleaning stuff). Keep a running total in your head. At checkout, if your total cost and total coupon savings are within 25 cents of the actuals, you may have a future as a card counter.
  
  Given the fact that most people who try card counting are both bad and obvious, the casinos don't comp them, which cuts the cost of business. Overall, casinos understand shaving odds. After all, two single number bets on the roulette table shaves the house odds. Which brings me to the third point:
  
  I know exactly zero card counting systems which push the player into postive odds. The really good systems cut the house advantage to .5% or slightly better, but the odds are still with the house in the long run. The counter is depending on a run to make his or her money, along with the right betting scheme (counters tend to be progressive bettors).
  
  That being said, an extremely good counter can bet on (excuse the pun) being blacklisted in Las Vegas, but that's a tiny, tiny percentage of players overall. An average card counter will simply be denied perks, and be viewed with some suspicion. If you play 250-500 hands a year, the comps more than offset the average counter's edge. If you play more that that, it depends on how good a counter you are.
  
  Now that I've vented, I'll get back on topic. RFIDs in casino chips bother me not. The privacy implications for someone who gambles are nil, and the advantage in more accurate play tracking so outweigh any privacy issues, it's not even funny. You don't take chips home (are you stupid? they have cash value only in the casino), the first thing you do when you sit at a table in Vegas is utter the words "I want to be rated", and _every casino wants to keep its player to itself. Hence their reluctance to sell their mailing lists.
  
  A Final Thought: If you find yourself up $75k at the $20 minimum table and a host offers you a suite and RFB, ask for show tickets, take the deal and walk away. And send me some money for my sage advice. :)
  
  -Prong
Link me to them... by tgd · 2004-01-09 09:37 · Score: 5, Insightful

This is a great use for RFID tags. Watch all the chips, watch where the move, and track which ones I have.

I love to go to the casino and play card games like Blackjack or more importantly Craps. Accurate tracking of chips tagged to me would mean two things: accurate comping and the ability to have a technical solution to ensuring payouts are correct.

Those of you who have played craps at a busy table will know what I mean -- the accuracy of your payouts when you win is always in the hands of the "dealer" working your half of the table. I've been payed wrong many times, sometimes in my favor, sometimes not. Sometimes money comes in from bets I forgot I had on the table, sometimes I wonder if I got missed on a payout.

If this means that questioning a missed payout can be more accurate or means at a minimum the casino can see in aggregate when they have someone working the table who consistently makes payout errors, more power to them.

This isn't a privacy issue. If you think you have one spec of anonymity or privacy in a casino, you're nuckin futs.
It's a private business. by Ophidian+P.+Jones · 2004-01-09 09:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

As such, they are free to do whatever they like to stem losses, gain advantage over customers, etc.

If you don't like it, you can go to another casino that doesn't use RFID chips. Ain't America grand?
More power to 'em by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-09 09:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's finally happened. The SlashThink phenomenon of "RFID is bad" has officially deteriorated into irrelevancy. This time, we're apparently supposed to think that RFID in casinos has something to do with our rights. It doesn't, and shouldn't. Nobody goes into a casino against their will, and nobody should be surprised that casinos exist for the sole purpose of tracking and taking money. For casinos to *not* use RFID to their advantage would be stupid and irresponsible.
Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID by introverted · 2004-01-09 09:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why would anyone even take the chips out of the casino anyway?
I doubt they care too much if you take the chips out of the casino. After all, chips that go away don't have to be converted back into cash -- it's just that much extra profit.

What they don't want is for you to walk out the door with a stack of $1 chips and bring them back made to look like $100 chips. Presumably the RFID would also make it easier for them to detect fake chips that had never been in any casino before.
Yes, privacy in a casino is highly sought by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-09 09:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

(Posting anonymously under fear of karma loss from that knee gently jerking back and forth in the Slashdot community. "Ahhhh! He's not agreeing with my anti-RFID stance! Heretic! Mod him down!")

How does this even remotely relate to "your rights"? Casino chips are the equivalent of "disney cash" in theme parks, IE under normal circumstances they are only used within the casino itself. Preventing loss would make the casino more money, and they might even use that to raise your pay tables when you're gaming.

The articles mention monitoring gamblers, but come on... you're in a casino! Your movements are tracked by a hundred cameras from the time you walk in to the time you walk out. Casino employees on the floor are designed to monitor your movement and habits and either 1) ask you to leave or 2) give you a free buffet coupon, depending on what you are doing. You have no privacy whatsoever and very little anonymosity in a casino. Sometimes that works out to your advantage.

Yes, there are bad uses for RFID. I don't see this as being one of them. Next thing you know people will be crying out because a warehouse wants to use RFID on crates for inventory control.

Oh, wait...
Hilarious by Pave+Low · 2004-01-09 09:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

All this crowing about privacy in a private establishment that has cameras covering every square inch of the property, that use computer databases and face-scanning technology to track counters and scammers, that have security everywhere because millions of dollars are passed around everyday.
And also watched by the government gaming commissions closely, lest their gambling license get taken away or worse.
And you're worried about fucking RFID technology in their chips?
Casinos are one of the few places you should absolutely stay away if you are so paranoid like that.

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SIG:Slashdot: indymedia for nerds.
Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID by OECD · 2004-01-09 09:50 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's not like they'll be tracking you with their chips at the grocery store.
No, they'll be tracking you at the tables. "Comps" are bestowed based on how much money you wager. If the chips are associated with you when they're sold, then they can track where and when you wagered it and comp you accordingly.

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Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID by cayenne8 · 2004-01-09 09:55 · Score: 3, Insightful

Well, if you cash out $10K or more at a time...you have to fill out forms for the IRS/US Gov....they really like to track things like that.
So, say you have a really good night...you cash out $9999, walk out with the rest...cash it out in small doses over time so you stay under the $10K radar. That way, all cash.....hard to track that.

--
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Ah, the party line: by Mike+Hawk · 2004-01-09 09:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

File-sharing: Sure there are illegitimate uses for the technology, but there are a few legit uses. DON'T BAN IT.

RFID: Sure there are a few legit uses for the technology, but there are illegitimate uses. BAN IT!
GOOD for them!!! by swordgeek · 2004-01-09 10:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

OK, they're using RFID tags in their own property to at the very worst, track your behaviour while on their property.

They're NOT putting these in items you buy, they're NOT using them to track you out the door, and they DO have a very real need to prevent counterfeits. There's increased security for them, and no invasion of privacy for their customers.

Where's the problem here? Geez, between this and the "forged colour mars photos," it MUST be a slow news day.

Oh, wait--both of these were posted by Michael. Interesting...

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"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
There is a huge difference by RomulusNR · 2004-01-09 10:25 · Score: 3, Insightful

between RFIDs in something I OWN AND PAID FOR, and RFIDs in something that I AM ONLY BORROWING.

Now, if casinos sell souvenir (poker) chips... hopefully those wont have active (rfid) chips in them.

Hell, they should put RFIDs in rental DVD/VHS cases, so they can track down the bastard who hasn't returned that one copy of THX1138.

Actually, inventory departments of companies might do well to RFID their equipment, especially with a wireless network full of floating laptops...

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