RFID Casino Chips

Ouch for card counters... by cayenne8 · 2004-01-09 09:33 · Score: 3, Insightful

They can more easily monitor your swing of bet levels......

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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........

Re:Ouch for card counters... by Mod+Me+God · 2004-01-09 09:34 · Score: 4, Funny

Not when I get my RFID reader and read the tags on the cards in blackjack ;)

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Re:Ouch for card counters... by goofballs · 2004-01-09 09:47 · Score: 4, Informative

card counting is legal everywhere in the states. the casinos in nevada are allowed to not let you play if they suspect you're card counting, but it's not against the law. this has been tested in the courts.
Re:Ouch for card counters... by cayenne8 · 2004-01-09 09:47 · Score: 4, Insightful

Card counting is ALWAYS legal, as long as there is no mechanical assistance...
:-)
But, most casinos don't allow you to play BJ there is they think you are a counter. I've never heard of a casino being 'advantage' player friendly. If they did, I can only guess they'd have the worst possible game set up...as far as dealer stands, payoffs...shuffle after each deal.

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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Re:Ouch for card counters... by glorf · 2004-01-09 09:56 · Score: 5, Insightful

The article talks mainly about being able to identify the chips as being authentic. I think that installing the equipment at each betting spot on the table to read the different IDs, lookup the dollar value in a central database and do the math to figure out total bet would be a little much. It would take some serious hardware to do real-time tracking of every chip in play. Considering that dealers, pit-bosses and the eye in the sky already are fairly good at catching counters (who can't take the casino for too much if they don't want to get banned), I don't think the ROI would be there for such a massive system.

Having a few readers in the cage to verify authenticity before giving out cash in exchange, would be a much more efficient use of RFID.
Re:Ouch for card counters... by Pave+Low · 2004-01-09 10:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

I believe there's already technology that can constantly monitor bettings, though I'm not sure how widely its implemented. The eye in the sky can see that without RFID.
Anyways, spotting a lone card counter really isn't that hard anyways. To be a really effective counter, your betting levels needs to swing wildely from 10-1 if you're using a hi-lo count, and pit bosses can see it a mile away.
It's team play that is really hard for casinos to spot, like when a spotter can call other people in when a shoe is hot, and they can bet huge.

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SIG:Slashdot: indymedia for nerds.
Re:Ouch for card counters... by cayenne8 · 2004-01-09 10:04 · Score: 3, Interesting

Couldn't you just take the chips home..and microwave them? I can't see them requiring the RFID working to prove they were their chips...
Something that can fail isn't the customers fault...if it was proven otherwise to be genuine.

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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Re:Ouch for card counters... by B'Trey · 2004-01-09 10:08 · Score: 3, Insightful

Even if that's true, which I'm not at all certain of, I don't see it as an issue. You have no right to card counting.

In fact, I don't see this as an issue at all. The casino already knows how many chips I buy, they can keep track of how many I win, and I cash them in before I leave.

The real issue with RFIDs is that they can be used to track people over time, and for purposes much different than their announced use. I'd have absolutely no problem with Wal-Mart (or whoever) using RFIDs to track inventory if they were somehow turned off when I purchased the merchandise, somewhat like the magnetic devices that are currently used for anti-theft measures.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.
Re:Ouch for card counters... by Gunzour · 2004-01-09 10:11 · Score: 4, Interesting

I was at the Hard Rock Casino in Vegas two years ago (during Defcon), and the dealer there was showing us how to count cards while we played. This is the same Hard Rock that got taken for huge amounts of money by the MIT card counting crew. The dealer told us that they will usually let you count cards, even if they know you are doing it, unless you start winning a lot of money. The reason: Amateur card counters tend to make mistakes that benefit the house. Unless you are really good at card counting, you may be better off sticking with basic strategy.

He had a good point, but the next year I went back and they had installed continuous card shufflers at most of their tables. You can't count cards against these machines since there is no beginning or end to the shoe.
Re:Ouch for card counters... by leonardluen · 2004-01-09 10:23 · Score: 3, Insightful

those continuous shufflers aren't allways as good as the casino wants them to be...you are correct that you can't count them, but i believe sometimes they can have patterns as to how they shuffle.

some people are really good at tracking a shuffle of a normal dealer, i have seen it done before without use of anything but your own brain...you can use some of these same techniques on a continuous shuffler. it is a lot harder than counting though!

and it is a good thing that not everyone counts(successfully) otherwise all the casinos would switch to these continuous shufflers.
Re:Ouch for card counters... by B'Trey · 2004-01-09 10:41 · Score: 3, Informative

Sigh. A "right" has a specific meaning. Not to put too fine a point on it, but it doesn't mean that you CAN do something, it means no one can interfere with you doing it. Card counting isn't illegal but if the casino kicks you out for doing it, you have no recourse. You can't sue the casion for interfering with your right to card count.

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"The legitimate powers of government extend only to such acts as are injurious to others." Thomas Jefferson.
Re:Ouch for card counters... by anthony_dipierro · 2004-01-09 11:14 · Score: 3, Interesting

In Atlantic City (as far as I remember -- its been awhile), they have to let you play. But they can instruct their dealers to do a lot of things to make your life as a counter quite miserable. Like only work very shallow into the shoe, for starters.

They can also force you to flat-bet (bet the same amount every hand during the shoe), which pretty much defeats the main purpose of card counting.
Re:Ouch for card counters... by bigbigbison · 2004-01-09 11:36 · Score: 3, Insightful

You could do that to one or two chips and get away with it. But if you come in with a whole pocket full of them, they would probably kick you out and bar you.

Casinos are all about trying to make the customer happy so they can take their money. The minute you go from someone they can make money from to someone they suspect is trying to unfairly take money from them they start playing hardball.

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http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
Re:Ouch for card counters... by Prong · 2004-01-09 13:02 · Score: 3, Insightful
Casinos like to foster 2 myths about card counting. First, that it's illegal (it's not), and second that you'll be declared persona non grata if they "catch" you doing it. The truth is that casinos tolerate counters on a regular basis, for a number of reasons:
- Card counting is damn hard. As an exercise, cut 20 random coupons out of the Sunday supplement, memorize the products and the discounts. Go to your local supermarket, buy a normal week's groceries, taking advantage of the coupons (without looking at them), and factoring in the "advantage buys". If you're single, buy 2 weeks, with an eye on the stuff you don't buy much (toilet paper, cleaning stuff). Keep a running total in your head. At checkout, if your total cost and total coupon savings are within 25 cents of the actuals, you may have a future as a card counter.
- Given the fact that most people who try card counting are both bad and obvious, the casinos don't comp them, which cuts the cost of business. Overall, casinos understand shaving odds. After all, two single number bets on the roulette table shaves the house odds. Which brings me to the third point:
- I know exactly zero card counting systems which push the player into postive odds. The really good systems cut the house advantage to .5% or slightly better, but the odds are still with the house in the long run. The counter is depending on a run to make his or her money, along with the right betting scheme (counters tend to be progressive bettors).
That being said, an extremely good counter can bet on (excuse the pun) being blacklisted in Las Vegas, but that's a tiny, tiny percentage of players overall. An average card counter will simply be denied perks, and be viewed with some suspicion. If you play 250-500 hands a year, the comps more than offset the average counter's edge. If you play more that that, it depends on how good a counter you are.

Now that I've vented, I'll get back on topic. RFIDs in casino chips bother me not. The privacy implications for someone who gambles are nil, and the advantage in more accurate play tracking so outweigh any privacy issues, it's not even funny. You don't take chips home (are you stupid? they have cash value only in the casino), the first thing you do when you sit at a table in Vegas is utter the words "I want to be rated", and _every casino wants to keep its player to itself. Hence their reluctance to sell their mailing lists.

A Final Thought: If you find yourself up $75k at the $20 minimum table and a host offers you a suite and RFB, ask for show tickets, take the deal and walk away. And send me some money for my sage advice. :)

-Prong

wont stem employee theft. by Lumpy · 2004-01-09 09:34 · Score: 4, Interesting

So they now have to stop in the kitchen to wrap that stack of $100.00 chips in tinfoil before they leave...

rfid is not a theft prevention solution for small items.

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Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.

Re:wont stem employee theft. by kin_korn_karn · 2004-01-09 09:36 · Score: 5, Funny

just outlaw tinfoil under the DMCA.. problem solved
Re:wont stem employee theft. by dustmote · 2004-01-09 09:43 · Score: 3, Funny

Something tells me that their hiring bonuses would cost more than employee theft is currently costing them, if they tried that little stunt. :) Still, it would make for some interesting want ads... "Do you want a fast-paced exciting job with great benefits? Do you not object to daily probing of your rectum? Have we got a job for you!!!" (I think they already have ads like this in Nevada...)

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-1, "1337" speak
Re:wont stem employee theft. by bigbigbison · 2004-01-09 10:15 · Score: 5, Interesting

At the casino I worked at, employees who have acess to the kitchen are not the same ones that have access to enough chips to make it worthwhile. There are cameras everywhere in a casino, out on the floor as well as behind the scenes.

I honestly can't think that employee theft of chips is really that huge of an issue since the ammount of money that each cashier has is counted at the end of shift and if you are off enough money to make stealing chips worth it, say $500+ then they will not let you work there long if you are off that much very often. They even went so far as to make us use clear cups with clear liquid in them in the cage so that we could drop things in them.

Dealers are under a lot more scrutiny from the cameras than cashiers. There are dedicated cameras looking at the chips on the table.

At the casino I worked at, chips in the chip bank, (in storage) are supposed to be counted and verified every shift so a theft there would be caught fairly easilly.

When I worked in the cashier cage and was the banker in charge of the cashiers in the cage, it wasn't uncommon to call down to the vault and have half a million dollars in cash delivered. So with that kind of money floating around, if I was going to steal, i wouldn't have been chips. If, as an employee, you are going to steal from the casino, you need to go big becasue if you do it multiple times, you will get caught.

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http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players

I'll let them RFID me... by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · 2004-01-09 09:35 · Score: 4, Funny

...as long as they let me RFID their cards...

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Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.

Link me to them... by tgd · 2004-01-09 09:37 · Score: 5, Insightful

This is a great use for RFID tags. Watch all the chips, watch where the move, and track which ones I have.

I love to go to the casino and play card games like Blackjack or more importantly Craps. Accurate tracking of chips tagged to me would mean two things: accurate comping and the ability to have a technical solution to ensuring payouts are correct.

Those of you who have played craps at a busy table will know what I mean -- the accuracy of your payouts when you win is always in the hands of the "dealer" working your half of the table. I've been payed wrong many times, sometimes in my favor, sometimes not. Sometimes money comes in from bets I forgot I had on the table, sometimes I wonder if I got missed on a payout.

If this means that questioning a missed payout can be more accurate or means at a minimum the casino can see in aggregate when they have someone working the table who consistently makes payout errors, more power to them.

This isn't a privacy issue. If you think you have one spec of anonymity or privacy in a casino, you're nuckin futs.

Re:Link me to them... by fishbowl · 2004-01-09 09:53 · Score: 5, Interesting

It shows that you really do play, thanks for posting tgd.

People whose gambling experience consists of losing a roll of nickles in a slot machine, don't get it: You don't really want anonymity. You want the casino to know you're there, that you're playing, etc. You want to play in tourneys. You want comps. You want them to know you played, win or lose. If you're not picking up comps, you're missing half the strategy.

You don't want anonymity, you want them to notice you and say "Hello mister TGF, can I get you anything?"

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Re:Link me to them... by RobertB-DC · 2004-01-09 09:53 · Score: 3, Interesting

This isn't a privacy issue. If you think you have one spec of anonymity or privacy in a casino, you're nuckin futs.

Excellent point that sums up the whole thing. After all, the entire point of a casino is to prey on peoples' willing suspension of disbelief.

How can anyone who walks in and puts their cash on the table think that the casino companies aren't going to fleece them from the moment they enter? That those ridiculously overdone venues with their flashing neon lights just built themselves out of the Nevada desert?

On the other side of the roulette wheel, you have people who *do* think they can beat the house... the people who buy lottery tickets at home in blissful ignorance of the laws of mathematics.

Neither of these groups is going to care about RFID. One group knows that they're entering a fantasy world, and the other wouldn't believe you if you told them.

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Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Re:Link me to them... by Jboy_24 · 2004-01-09 12:31 · Score: 3, Interesting

I know people are worried that a casino will start tracking that a Customer Relations person gave a well-known married male High Roller $1000 chip number 87654321 which four hours later was cashed by a woman of "questionable employment." Is it fair that the casino now knows the "social habits" of that high roller? Probably not. Suppose the well-know high roller was a Senator.

If casinos starting ratting out the actions of the high rollers, highrollers would just go somewhere else.

I saw an interview with a guy who helps highrollers out (forget the "official name")....
it was deffinatly suggested that not only do the Casinos know about the girls, booze and drugs, in some cases they faciliate it.

In your example, if they found that the high rollers chips were getting spent by a women of questionable employment, they'd probably just check to make sure the high roller was happy with the "Services rendered" and make sure he wasn't robbed.

Wow by jjoyce · 2004-01-09 09:37 · Score: 4, Funny

This really changes the scrupulous image that the casinos had going for them.

It's a private business. by Ophidian+P.+Jones · 2004-01-09 09:37 · Score: 3, Insightful

As such, they are free to do whatever they like to stem losses, gain advantage over customers, etc.

If you don't like it, you can go to another casino that doesn't use RFID chips. Ain't America grand?

More power to 'em by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-09 09:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

It's finally happened. The SlashThink phenomenon of "RFID is bad" has officially deteriorated into irrelevancy. This time, we're apparently supposed to think that RFID in casinos has something to do with our rights. It doesn't, and shouldn't. Nobody goes into a casino against their will, and nobody should be surprised that casinos exist for the sole purpose of tracking and taking money. For casinos to *not* use RFID to their advantage would be stupid and irresponsible.

Re:More power to 'em by Mal-2 · 2004-01-09 11:45 · Score: 3, Informative

Exactly. After all, the chips are the property of the casino, only the money they are worth is yours. I don't have a problem with the casino tracking something they own. Want to break the tracking? Cash out, get new chips (there or somewhere else). It's that simple. I *really* have no problem with RFIDing chips that are not meant to move from table to table, such as roulette chips. You're required to cash out when you leave (assuming you have anything left, which a lot of people don't).

As for card counting, I have done it quite openly. The fact is they don't care if you're counting cards at the $3 minimum/$25 maximum table. They'll just be more aggressive in providing the free drinks, both to get you drunk and to distract you from your count. I'm sure the story is different on the high-roller tables.

The only game I'll drink while playing is roulette, and that only when I already have my favorable numbers sussed out. The main difficulty is finding a wheel that's out of true, and figuring out its tendencies. In my experience, 10-15% of the wheels out there are out of true enough to give YOU the advantage over the house. Once you've figured out what numbers to play (or more accurately, what segment of the wheel), you can drink all you like. All you have to do is remember what you've already figured out.

I've openly admitted to pit bosses that I chose a particular table because the wheel is somewhat predictable. They let me keep on playing anyhow. I've even had them stand there and watch, rather than being called over every time the dealer has to pay me stacks in excess of $300. They know what I'm doing, but there's nothing illegal about it. If they don't want me to do it, they should pull the table out of service and replace it with one in better condition (which actually happened to me once in the Bahamas). It's not like I'm betting "under the radar" either -- if I find a "hot" wheel, it's not unusual to be throwing $80 a spin on the table ($10 x 8 numbers, all in sequence on the wheel).

For those who go to Vegas, I'll tell you that the last time I was there I found nicely biased tables at both the Sahara and the Lady Luck. I took the Lady Luck for a hundred or so, which I spent somewhere else in the same casino (so I doubt they mind), but the Sahara I took for about $400 and only played half of that back. My winnings at roulette covered the entire cost of our trip, save for vehicle wear and tear.

You do need a resonably large starting sum to pull this off. If you don't have enough money to survive 20 losses before hitting a winner (at 35:1), then don't play. $100 is generally a minimum starting sum, since most tables require $5 on every spin. And you COULD lose it all if you play the wrong table. I was $200 down from playing the wrong tables before I found the one I could predict, and won $600 in 30 minutes, leaving me up $400. So don't expect that it's a given that you will win. You may have to invest a few hundred bucks in acquiring the skill of reading an imbalanced wheel. It's well worth it though -- I leave Las Vegas with more money than I arrived with about 2/3 of the time. I'm sure anyone with the ability to do rough statistical modeling in their head can do the same.

Mal-2

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How is the Riemann zeta function like Trump rallies? Both have an endless number of trivial zeros.

Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID by introverted · 2004-01-09 09:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

Why would anyone even take the chips out of the casino anyway?

I doubt they care too much if you take the chips out of the casino. After all, chips that go away don't have to be converted back into cash -- it's just that much extra profit.

What they don't want is for you to walk out the door with a stack of $1 chips and bring them back made to look like $100 chips. Presumably the RFID would also make it easier for them to detect fake chips that had never been in any casino before.

Yes, privacy in a casino is highly sought by Anonymous Coward · 2004-01-09 09:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

(Posting anonymously under fear of karma loss from that knee gently jerking back and forth in the Slashdot community. "Ahhhh! He's not agreeing with my anti-RFID stance! Heretic! Mod him down!")

How does this even remotely relate to "your rights"? Casino chips are the equivalent of "disney cash" in theme parks, IE under normal circumstances they are only used within the casino itself. Preventing loss would make the casino more money, and they might even use that to raise your pay tables when you're gaming.

The articles mention monitoring gamblers, but come on... you're in a casino! Your movements are tracked by a hundred cameras from the time you walk in to the time you walk out. Casino employees on the floor are designed to monitor your movement and habits and either 1) ask you to leave or 2) give you a free buffet coupon, depending on what you are doing. You have no privacy whatsoever and very little anonymosity in a casino. Sometimes that works out to your advantage.

Yes, there are bad uses for RFID. I don't see this as being one of them. Next thing you know people will be crying out because a warehouse wants to use RFID on crates for inventory control.

Oh, wait...

Hilarious by Pave+Low · 2004-01-09 09:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

All this crowing about privacy in a private establishment that has cameras covering every square inch of the property, that use computer databases and face-scanning technology to track counters and scammers, that have security everywhere because millions of dollars are passed around everyday.

And also watched by the government gaming commissions closely, lest their gambling license get taken away or worse.

And you're worried about fucking RFID technology in their chips?

Casinos are one of the few places you should absolutely stay away if you are so paranoid like that.

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SIG:Slashdot: indymedia for nerds.

Casinos will love this! by Coryoth · 2004-01-09 09:45 · Score: 3, Interesting

This most likely will happen.

I used to work doing data visualisation for casinos - nice pretty visualisations showing slot machine usage. It was a huge hit with the casinos that used it. Most casinos use customer cards you see - you earn bonus points for awards if you put your card in the reader of the slot machine while you play. That allows the the casino to track your slot machine spending. More importantly it allows you to create visualisations of slot activity broken down by demographics (of course they collect a few personal details when they assign you your awards card...) so that they can better direct promotions, reorganise the slots on the floor (knowing where to place a bank of new slot machines can be worth a few million dollars!) etc.

The big problem was that while you could track turnover volume on the gaming tables, you just couldn't track the movement of players very well - there was just no information on that. With this they can have you swipe your awards card when you collect your chips, then watch those chips disperse about the tables. More importantly they can track the ebb and flow - movement vectors for the chips about the floor - that can be very useful information.

This will be a huge boon to the casino industry, who are always lookign for that new way to fleece a few more dollars of the statistically ignorant.

Jedidiah.

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Craft Beer Programming T-shirts

Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID by OECD · 2004-01-09 09:50 · Score: 3, Insightful

It's not like they'll be tracking you with their chips at the grocery store.

No, they'll be tracking you at the tables. "Comps" are bestowed based on how much money you wager. If the chips are associated with you when they're sold, then they can track where and when you wagered it and comp you accordingly.

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One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.

IMO not like Gillette or Wal-Mart. by pherris · 2004-01-09 09:51 · Score: 4, Interesting

Casino chips are generally meant to stay in the casino while Gillette or Wal-Mart sell items that are meant to leave the store. In theory Wally World could embed a RFID in all the shoes they sell and then profit from the data gained by tracking you walking around their stores or places that would like to sell your RFID movement data. I don't see the same problem with casino chips. A business (or casino) has the right to watch you while you are on their property. I'll give them that but tracking me past that is unacceptable.

RFIDs can be used for good. My Ford Focus ZTW has a RFID chip on the key. If the correct ID isn't there the car won't (and shouldn't atleast) start. Adding extra keys and programming them is a simple task too.

IMO this shouldn't raise the same concern that the Wal-Mart problem does, which could be a real nightmare.

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"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST

Re:This actually seems like a good use of RFID by cayenne8 · 2004-01-09 09:55 · Score: 3, Insightful

Well, if you cash out $10K or more at a time...you have to fill out forms for the IRS/US Gov....they really like to track things like that.

So, say you have a really good night...you cash out $9999, walk out with the rest...cash it out in small doses over time so you stay under the $10K radar. That way, all cash.....hard to track that.

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Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........

Ah, the party line: by Mike+Hawk · 2004-01-09 09:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

File-sharing: Sure there are illegitimate uses for the technology, but there are a few legit uses. DON'T BAN IT.

RFID: Sure there are a few legit uses for the technology, but there are illegitimate uses. BAN IT!

Re:That's too stupid by Texas+Rose+on+Lava+L · 2004-01-09 09:58 · Score: 3, Interesting

They'll almost certainly assign a unique ID to each chip. So, if you turn in a bunch of chips that all have the same id number, it would be like going into the bank and depositing $1000 in twenties all of which have identical serial numbers.

If, as you seem to suggest, you compile a list of valid ID numbers, they can still get you because they could store data on where the chip is located. If the computer tells the cashier that half the chips you're turning in are supposed to be in the vault, you're busted.

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Rank Presidents by th

GOOD for them!!! by swordgeek · 2004-01-09 10:00 · Score: 3, Insightful

OK, they're using RFID tags in their own property to at the very worst, track your behaviour while on their property.

They're NOT putting these in items you buy, they're NOT using them to track you out the door, and they DO have a very real need to prevent counterfeits. There's increased security for them, and no invasion of privacy for their customers.

Where's the problem here? Geez, between this and the "forged colour mars photos," it MUST be a slow news day.

Oh, wait--both of these were posted by Michael. Interesting...

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"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban

There is a huge difference by RomulusNR · 2004-01-09 10:25 · Score: 3, Insightful

between RFIDs in something I OWN AND PAID FOR, and RFIDs in something that I AM ONLY BORROWING.

Now, if casinos sell souvenir (poker) chips... hopefully those wont have active (rfid) chips in them.

Hell, they should put RFIDs in rental DVD/VHS cases, so they can track down the bastard who hasn't returned that one copy of THX1138.

Actually, inventory departments of companies might do well to RFID their equipment, especially with a wireless network full of floating laptops...

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Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.

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