Saturn V Fallen on Hard Times

n9fzx writes "The best remaining artifact of the Apollo Program, Huntsville's Saturn V, is 'pocked with pits and cracks, and patches of mold and mildew', having survived for forty years outdoors. Alabama's U.S. Space and Rocket Center is trying to raise a measly $5 million in order to preserve the beast, with $1.5 million in the kitty so far. Paypal, anyone?"

Comments

never should have been left to rot

[Barbarian]

It should have been used! I assume this is a complete rocket and not a replica, and when the Saturn V's were in service probably could have been launched. It is too bad it was allowed to wither away. I assume that it was abandoned along with the other remaining Saturn V rockets when the moon program was suddenly terminated and the focus shifted to the low-orbit space shuttle.

Re:never should have been left to rot

[stephenhawking]

Yes there were three more missions planned, and enough hardware to fly them. The three rockets are at Cape Canaveral (fully restored and inside a building made to house and display it), Mission Control Houston (outside), and the one at Huntsville, which is also outside. I've heard the one in Huntsville was raised to stand upright a couple of years ago. I've made a few trips to Cape Canaveral and Mission Control Houston, but I've never seen the Saturn V at Huntsville.

Re:never should have been left to rot

[October_30th]

The original plan called for 20 Apollo missions.

If I remember correctly, two complete Saturn V's were available when the program was cancelled. One of them was turned into Skylab and another into this showpiece. Apollo 20 was never assembled.

Re:never should have been left to rot

[luckylindy]

The following data is based on the technology available at the time of the design of the Saturn V and technology developed in the following years. Folks we had the means to colonize the moon and mars and we threw it away. It can be redeveloped with the proper political attitude and money. But will it? Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda.

Part one: Capability of original Saturn V.
Part two: With improved efficiency F1 main engines.
Part 3: Improved F1 engines burning high efficiency kerosene/nanoaluminum powder fuels.

Saturn V basic specs:
Empty weight: 250 tons.
Empty weight of first stage: 100 tons.
Fueled weight 3000 tons.
Takeoff thrust: 3750 tons.
Takeoff weight / thrust ratio: 80/100.
Thrust of each main first F1 engine: 750 tons.
Efficiency of each F1 engine: 250:1
Fuel consumption of each F1 engine: 3 tons/second.
Ratio of LO2/Kerosene: 2 tons/1 ton/ second.
Total mass of fuel consumed at and of first stage cutoff: 2250 tons
Mass of all upper stages at seperation:650 tons.
Thrust of second stage:600 tons.
Net weight of two stage orbit capability, based on skylab data: 90 tons.
Net weight of 2.5 stage orbit capability, based on moon launches: 150 tons.
Net capacity escape to moon: 45-50 tons.

Part two: Improved F1 engines:
The russians designed during the Moon landing era LO2/kerosene engines with efficiencies of 333, sea level, which is 33% greater than the existing F1.
That means the redesigned F1 engines could have produced 2 million pounds of thrust ( 1000 tons) at the same 3 tons per second consumption. That means that take off thrust of 5000 tons versus 3750 tons, an increased thow upper stage total weight jumping from 650 tons to 1650 tons and a probable doubling of mass to orbit:
2 stage mass: 180-200 tons.
2.5 stage mass: 300 tons
3 stage escape mass to moon: 90-100 tons.
So a conventional but improved F1 engine could hav e allowed supporting an early small manned colony on the moon.

Part three: Use of NanoAlumimum powder in Kerosene fuels: Link: http://www.argonide.com/gun_propellants.html

Based on the article, efficiency could increase at least 50%. If so then the 333 ISP of the 1970's technology could have been raised to 450.

Thus, a possible F3 engine, designed for high efficiency and high energy fuels could have an efficiency rating of 450-500. That means that the Saturn V could have evolved into a rocket that could have placed:
2 stage orbit: 300 tons
2.5 stage orbit: 450 tons.
3 stage escape: 150 tons.

All this without resorting to adding side boosters to the Saturn vehicle. If side boosters of equal or better design than that used by the current space shuttle could have been added to the Saturn V then that vehicle could have evolved to place in orbit perhaps 600 to 1000 tons and have capacity to put into escape 300 tons.

The mass of the current space station is now 200 tons and if core completed will weight 300 tons. It is estimated that the requried mass of a mars expedition space ship will be 300 tons.

The world could have been colonizing the moon right now and be on the verge this year of making the jump to mars.

Hundreds of years ago the Chinese sent a huge fleet to colonize the world. It went entirely around the world leaving historical evidence everywhere and bring home innformation. The Mandarins then dismantled the entire fleet, forbid exploration and became a closed society until Admiral Perry forcibly opened them up to the world.

Why does the high sounding Bush administration's new space vision really feel like a mandarins sleight of hand maneuver to gut the space program like they are gutting everything else.

Folks, the technology exists NOW. The means is there. But will the politicos actually allow the opportunity?

Something better to do with the money

[phr1]

According to this post, only about $40 million would need to be raised to service the Hubble Space Telescope, one of the best and most productive scientific instruments ever made. The Saturn 5 out at Huntsville is just a big hunk of metal laying on the ground, completely nonfunctional, and sure, maybe it gets even more pockmarked as the years go by, but it's not like it's going to suddenly vanish or anything. And anyway, unless something has happened, there's another one on display at Kennedy Space Center (I saw that one in the early 80's). I'd say put the $5 million toward servicing the Hubble and actually accomplish some useful exploration, rather than just polishing up a relic of glory days gone by.

Re:Something better to do with the money

[October_30th]

With all due respect to the Hubble which has indeed been one of the best and most productive scientific instruments ever made, I don't think servicing it would be rational.

Hubble's successor is launched in 2010 and any money is definitely better spent on the successor rather than the old Hubble.

one way trip to mars, anyone?

[vnv]

"They come up with a plan to launch a manned, one-way mission to Titan using the remaining shuttle fleet and vintage Apollo spacecraft and Saturn V launchers."

If Stephen Baxter could use the Saturn V for a one way trip to Titan, I see no reason why we can't use it for Mars instead! Baxter has even done the research :-)

And just for the record, yes the book does drag, but it also has a great story of a dilapidated American space program doing something heroic which I found a tale worth reading.

Interesting stuff about Saturn V

[Realistic_Dragon]

Only has a Thrust To Weight of 1.5 (compared to >2 TW on a Eurofighter)

Weighed 5 million pounds fueled

Main engines burned for less than 2.5 minutes

Was travelling 6,000mph at burnout

Was slightly more fuel efficient than a Crystler SUV

Correction

[October_30th]

Just to correct some ambiguities/mistakes in my own post above.

Apollo 20 was indeed assembled and serves as a memorial to the workers at the Michoud Assembly Plant near New Orleans. The first and second stages on display in Houston were originally slated for Apollo 19. The booster used for Skylab was that of the Apollo 18.

Historical Perspective

[publiusREX]

Remember the Viking sailing ships?
Remember Columbus' sailing ships?
Remember the Conestoga wagons?
Remember the first steps off this planet?
and onto another world?

It tells who we are, like it, or not.

There is one in FL

[Danathar]

There is a complete Saturn V indoors in a facility at the Kennedy Space center. Its in great shape (at least from the outside) and totally protected from the weather. Its in a museum facility that anybody can see.

Re:Feed The Hungry

[Mod Me God]

Well said. $2 a day given to the world's starving will not reach the starving, it would line the pockets of corrupt officials or get soaked up in the vast inefficiency the majority of charities operate with.

Space exploration (or historic preservation) and removing world poverty are not mutually exclusive. Ending world poverty requires removing corruption and improving logictics in 3rd world countries, pumping money at them will not solve these problems, it will sustain them.

Re:I remember that thing

[porksodas]

Here is a picture, with some people next to it for comparison.

It's big, indeed.

Obvious solution...

[pieterh]

Cut the damn thing into hand-sized pieces, seal in plastic bags, sell them for $25 a piece and use the proceeds to send Carly to Mars on a one-way mission to sign outsourcing contracts with the Martians.

Damn, my living room museum needs a brick from the Berlin Wall, a chunk of the Biggest Rocket Ever Built, and a single hard-copy SCO share to go along with my original mint-condition 20-diskette pack of IBM's OS/2 (which never flew, either).

JSC Saturn V

[Alioth]

I used to work (until about 1.5 years ago) pretty much opposite the Johnson Space Center in Houston. They have a Saturn V outside there - I often took people who came to visit me to JSC, and we'd have a look around the rocket park.

It's an impressive thing up close. From our parking lot at work, it didn't look that impressive. But when you got up close to it, it was another story.

However, the Saturn V at JSC is also in pretty poor shape - it's corroded right through in places if you look closely. The white paintwork on the CM is badly cracked. Apparently, it also became a home for some owls (which is not a bad thing really).

The best artifact inside JSC is an Apollo capsule that went to the moon and back. You can actually (or could when I was last there) touch the heat shield - it's neat touching something that's been to the Moon and back. When you look at it closely, with its primitive electronics and its small size, you wonder how they ever did it.

Auction it off

[xtermin8]

Ebay anyone?