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Saturn V Fallen on Hard Times
n9fzx writes "The best remaining artifact of the Apollo Program, Huntsville's Saturn V, is 'pocked with pits and cracks, and patches of mold and mildew', having survived for forty years outdoors. Alabama's U.S. Space and Rocket Center is trying to raise a measly $5 million in order to preserve the beast, with $1.5 million in the kitty so far. Paypal, anyone?"
First Post!
post, this is.
DENY PHYSICALITY TO KNOW TRUTH!
- - - -
MATRIX THEORY !
i have submitted this as a story. WE will see how DENSE the editors are. LET THE ENERGY FLOW!
"Can we fix it?" (-:
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
It should have been used! I assume this is a complete rocket and not a replica, and when the Saturn V's were in service probably could have been launched. It is too bad it was allowed to wither away. I assume that it was abandoned along with the other remaining Saturn V rockets when the moon program was suddenly terminated and the focus shifted to the low-orbit space shuttle.
oh yeah.... first post...
no wait, does that mean I have to give money?? nevermind, someone else can have first post.. I take it back.
... with a giant condom!
*ducks*
And with rent at the University getting steeper, it's probably in better condition than where I live. Not to mention, cheaper. When can I move in?
I hate to see a piece of our country's history falling apart. A measely $5m? Sure, I'll just write a check...
We used to drive past that rocket whenever we would travel to visit family down in New Orleans.
It looks big in person... looked even bigger as a kid... truly an impressive sight.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
At the cost of $2 per day, 5 million dollars wil sustain almost 7,000 refugees/famine victims in less privileged regions of the world for a whole year. I say let the rocket 'depart' since its no longer being used. We can keep the videos, the working diagrams, etc. and generations of the future can 'reconstruct' the rocket through virtual reality whenever they feel the need. That's merely my opinion, though.
first post!
Hell, I could build my own themepark on the moon! With hookers, and blackjack! Forget the blackjack.
EGG, the Electronic Gamers Guild
http://www.astronomers.net/space_rockets/saturn5_r ocket.htm
Sorry about not hyperlinking, new to Slashdot
According to this post, only about $40 million would need to be raised to service the Hubble Space Telescope, one of the best and most productive scientific instruments ever made. The Saturn 5 out at Huntsville is just a big hunk of metal laying on the ground, completely nonfunctional, and sure, maybe it gets even more pockmarked as the years go by, but it's not like it's going to suddenly vanish or anything. And anyway, unless something has happened, there's another one on display at Kennedy Space Center (I saw that one in the early 80's). I'd say put the $5 million toward servicing the Hubble and actually accomplish some useful exploration, rather than just polishing up a relic of glory days gone by.
If Stephen Baxter could use the Saturn V for a one way trip to Titan, I see no reason why we can't use it for Mars instead! Baxter has even done the research :-)
And just for the record, yes the book does drag, but it also has a great story of a dilapidated American space program doing something heroic which I found a tale worth reading.
The Failure of Saturn V
Of course we can all agree that Saturn V is a failure, but why did Saturn V fail? Once you get past the fact that Saturn V is fragmented between a myriad of incompatible rockets, there is the historical record of failure and of failed propulsion systems. Saturn V experienced moderate success about 40 years ago in space circles. Since then it has been in steady decline. We all know Saturn V keeps losing market share but why? Is it the problematic personalities of many of the key players? Or is it larger than their troubled personalities?
The record is clear on one thing no rocket system has ever come back from the grave. Efforts to resuscitate Saturn V are one step away from spiritualists wishing to communicate with the dead. As the situation grows more desperate for the adherents of this doomed rocket, the sorrow takes hold. An unremitting gloom hangs like a death shroud over a once hopeful Saturn V community. The hope is gone; a mournful nostalgia has settled in. Now is the end time for Saturn V.
I mean, couple of buckets of paint, a few weekends with your drinkin buddies...you could have that thing fixered up in no time!
"Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
Oh wait, that doesn't make sense at all.
Too bad I don't have an extra $1.5M lying around somewhere. Maybe I could talk to Capital One about raising my credit limit? ;)
Anyway, it was truly a remarkable construction. Everything about the Saturn V was huge. From the buildings involved in construction to the enormous crawler built to haul the damn thing. We're talking an absolutely massive scale... In fact, according to the history channel's show Modern Marvels, the only human-produced sound louder than a Saturn V at lift-off is the detonation of an atomic bomb.
It is a historical irony that space exploration takes second place to mass destruction in decibel output, though. Perhaps that says something about human nature?
"To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking
Only has a Thrust To Weight of 1.5 (compared to >2 TW on a Eurofighter)
Weighed 5 million pounds fueled
Main engines burned for less than 2.5 minutes
Was travelling 6,000mph at burnout
Was slightly more fuel efficient than a Crystler SUV
Beep beep.
Apollo 20 was indeed assembled and serves as a memorial to the workers at the Michoud Assembly Plant near New Orleans. The first and second stages on display in Houston were originally slated for Apollo 19. The booster used for Skylab was that of the Apollo 18.
The owls are not what they seem
Protection and preservation are important. I think it needs a large roll down rubber covvering -- perhaps with an Spacemen reservoir in the tip!
ls
Now I can't get that tune out of my head!
The owls are not what they seem
Has the Gay Niggers Association of America infiltrated NASA? Is this at all related to the membership requirement of watching Gay Niggers from Outer Space?
Ancient Martian pyramid found! Couple this with the face on Mars, and it's clear that life exists or existed on the red planet.
probably, but fuck em. they suck.
In fact, according to the history channel's show Modern Marvels, the only human-produced sound louder than a Saturn V at lift-off is the detonation of an atomic bomb.
It is a historical irony that space exploration takes second place to mass destruction in decibel output, though. Perhaps that says something about human nature?
To me, it says that when we're gonna murder hundreds of thousands of people practically all at once, we couldn't give a shit less how loud the boom is.
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
"Yes we can!"
At the cost of $2 per day, 5 million dollars wil sustain almost 7,000 refugees/famine victims in less privileged regions of the world for a whole year. I say let the rocket 'depart' since its no longer being used. We can keep the videos, the working diagrams, etc. and generations of the future can 'reconstruct' the rocket through virtual reality whenever they feel the need. That's merely my opinion, though.
Now now, the last thing we need around here is a practical suggestion like that.
Perl - $Just @when->$you ${thought} s/yn/tax/ &couldn\'t %get $worse;
I really can't get my head around how a society could undertake such a massive project as Apollo, then fail to preserve the artifacts for future generations. Heck, I am a future generation. I was only one year old when the last Saturn flew. I've seen the Saturn V in Houston, it's really astonishing. I can only imagine what it would look like standing next to the LUT.
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Who gives a fuck
Remember the Viking sailing ships?
Remember Columbus' sailing ships?
Remember the Conestoga wagons?
Remember the first steps off this planet?
and onto another world?
It tells who we are, like it, or not.
That way it can go into a movie museum with all the other movie props! (Kidding... no I don't think they were faked)
Yes, while we're at it, if the Statue of Liberty begins to fall apart, no worries, we'll just let it fall over.
Effiel Tower? Nah, France surrenders.
Big Ben? I already have a watch!
Taj Mahal? Whatever, we can just visit it virtually since they scanned it with 3D lasers or whatever...
</sarcasm>
What's with all the "who cares" posts? If you don't care, don't donate to fix the rocket. Go feed the hungry or whatever. Jeez, I've said this twice before in the last 24 hours, but geeks/engeneers really will find a way to disagree with anything just for the sake of argument. It's the god damned Saturn V! This ain't just America's history, this machine brought the first MAN to the moon. I say preserve it at all costs!
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
One thing I hate about most main stream space museums is that they tend to just spraypaint over everything so it all looks freshly painted. Much of the stuff at the A&S in Washington DC has been so "restored" that the pipes have been removed and everything repainted. It looks as bad as paint job from one of thouse places that repaint cars for $200.
The good places will carefully restore what is needed and replace pipes when needed and put them back to where they had been and they leave all the serail number plates on parts so they can be read.
There is a complete Saturn V indoors in a facility at the Kennedy Space center. Its in great shape (at least from the outside) and totally protected from the weather. Its in a museum facility that anybody can see.
I would say it was a hugely bad idea to leave such a complex piece of machinery outside in the elements, unprotected.
It should be restored to all its glory and made into a prominent display. I went to the Saturn V center at Kennedy just a few months ago, and you can almost hear people's jaws drop when they step into the Saturn V display. It's possibly one of the most historically important machines man has ever built, it should not be allowed to rot and decay outside.
I agree with others who say that most of the poor would be better-served with economic development and honest government than with direct aid. Even so, there are plenty of cases miles ahead of servicing a dead rocket. I recently gave money to an orphanage in Guatemala for HIV+ children. I'd be ashamed to give money to something as pointless as a Saturn V when there are causes like that.
no question the wwworld would be a better place with a few less felonious gangster type billyonerrors, & their armIE of trained puppets (see also: georgewellian fuddite life0cide).
too much is never enough for these foulcurrs, so don't expect that they'll be satisfied with some tiny paypal paymeNTs from y'all.
no way. their recipe for US is total permaneNT debt & disruption.
consult with/trust in yOUR creators. get ready to brighten/lighten up. there's never any cover charge. see you there?
A quick google search shows there are 3 full Saturn V's on display.
The other two are at Kennedy (florida) and JSC (Houston).
-metric
Don't spend money on nostalgia when the next generation of space craft are being built by private companies who are short of cash.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
in the kitty?
what the heck does 'in the kitty' mean?
or rather, why would you put donations in a cat?
No, it's unthinkable! The goal of all space missions are to seek out lifeforms that look remarkably like ourselves, which even speak English (with a strange accent, admittedly) and which may even be genetically intercompatible with our own species.
After all, the human species is so singular, so important, with such a manifest destiny, that it's only to be expected that "life" will always look like us.
I'm just curious. If you saw a rock on Mars that looked like an elephant, would you immediately assume that interplanetary space belonged to trunked beings?
People... so funny sometimes.
Get over it: humanity is nothing special, and we're not even sure that "life" as such is. If we find one little self-reproducing molecule on Mars, even something like a prion or a strand of protein, we will have answered what is already a huge question. It is somewhat sad to turn this into a quest for pyramid-building humanoids.
However, since you asked so nicely, we'lll send a rover to look at the face. Are you volunteering for that one-way mission?
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- Shelob book form is very, very old and slow. She's deliberate and single minded but not the speeding oversized tatarantula you see in the film. Heck in the film all Shelob is is just some unimportant oversized arachnid - no personality at all.
- Shelob sits her ass on Sting, it's not thrusted by Sam - that fight went on way too long.
- The sheer size of Shelob's sting was so large you'd think Frodo would have a pretty major abdominal wound in addition to the poison. But when he wakes there's nary a scratch on him. Oh hey the audience wont notice right? Continuity Mr. Jackson!
- Why doesn't Shelob just run in and grab Frodo when he's bungey jumping in her webbing - that's what real spiders do - and if Shelob is just an oversized house spider than that's what she would have done. Not exciting enough right?
- No Christopher Lee! Saruman is the star of the whole film and book. Who else can dish out sure fire insults in old English like the master of Orthanc? If it weren't for Saruman there would be no second book and we'd never see those Hobbits get their comeuppance.
I am buying the DVD just for those deleted scenes alone.
- Eowyn was never referred to as Dernhelm. Where were those references?
- Aragorn's army of undead buddies never made it to Gondor proper. Aragorn releases them before that point cos he's such a nice geezer.
- The crypt of the undead is supposed to be completely pitch black. Gimli is in fear because he can hear the dead following them but not see them. La-de-da we have CGI now. No need for plot exposition let's just bung undead people all over the place - it looks good or something.
- The same goes for Shalobs Lair. It was much, much too bright - I'm serious!
- The seige of gondor was likewise much too bright. The book labours to make clear the failing of the daylight hours. Through many chapters - not just one. But Mr. Jackson - our camera people will have nothing to film! We can't have that! Quick stuff in some daylight - otherwise people will have to use their imag-i-nation.
- Gandalf takes on Denethor with his staff. WTF? What happened to stern words and plot exposition. No the audience has an average I.Q. of your average po-tat-O. I am insulted at Mr. Jacksons low opinion of me. This is insane.
- The secret path into Mordor that Gollum leads Frodo and Sam to is not so secret after all. In fact - it's right on the doorstep of Minas Morgul, city of the Ringwraiths. Just look at the film. All those thousands of Saurons fell soldiers marching past and not once catching a glimpse of the stupid Hobbits mucking about in plain view.
- In that same scene the leader of the Nine Riders is on Horseback, not flying like in the film. Not exciting right?
- Theoden mucks around before going to Gondor. That's right - he sits on his ass and trys to figure out how to look after his people. He DOES NOT moan about Gondor's lack of assistance - and where is the all-important red arrow?
- the real Denethor was much crazier - the guy in the film was one of those Goth posers who rely much to heavily on giving out heavy stares and trying to act like they don't give a fuck - well, hey neither did I. How about the human side of Denethor(that's right - there used to be one).
- Since when would any sane king send his best horsemen against a herd of way oversized Oliphaunts? Horses are not necessarily faster but I would bet a sixpence that they are more maneuverable. Theoden have you ever heard of flanking tactics? Not just once mate - not just once.
The carnage was un-fricking-believable. Speechless.
- The Legolas/Oliphaunt scene. Empire Strikes Back - Hoth Scene anyone? Lego-man the force will be with you - always!
- What the f*** was wrong with those Eagles? In the wild Eagles(it doesn't matter what species) take their prey off to an eyrie and eat the f***ers. Picking the Hobbits up - cool. Not eating them afterwards - not cool. No Gandalf versus the Eagles sce
and yes, there ought to be much better uses for the money. Let's keep the other Saturn V's around and let this one go.
Donate background CPU time to fight cancer.
This seems a lot of money to preserve what is mostly a large metal tube. What are they planning on doing that will cost that much? It's a museum piece so the components don't have to be kept in working order; it just has to look intact wherever they are visible.
Input error. Replace user and press any key to continue.
it's a surprise zi germans haven't eaten it yet.
Maybe we can take some of that 83 Billion we're spending on rebuilding Iraq and save it.
speaking as someone thats been to spacecamp huntsville. I'd say it came from all the quarters and nickles thrown into the cork covering heh
1) Bullet the blue sky! A re-entry at mach 15, fighting for control...
2) "I wanna die just like JFK / I wanna die on a sunny day"
Pypal, anyone? Sue, if they make the Saturn V an open source project... ;)
Oh, no, that's terrible. There are cures, you know!
And don't flatter yourself, mr. Coward, you were never like me.
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Cut the damn thing into hand-sized pieces, seal in plastic bags, sell them for $25 a piece and use the proceeds to send Carly to Mars on a one-way mission to sign outsourcing contracts with the Martians.
Damn, my living room museum needs a brick from the Berlin Wall, a chunk of the Biggest Rocket Ever Built, and a single hard-copy SCO share to go along with my original mint-condition 20-diskette pack of IBM's OS/2 (which never flew, either).
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Sorry... trying to etch a living out of my bad karma
I used to work (until about 1.5 years ago) pretty much opposite the Johnson Space Center in Houston. They have a Saturn V outside there - I often took people who came to visit me to JSC, and we'd have a look around the rocket park.
It's an impressive thing up close. From our parking lot at work, it didn't look that impressive. But when you got up close to it, it was another story.
However, the Saturn V at JSC is also in pretty poor shape - it's corroded right through in places if you look closely. The white paintwork on the CM is badly cracked. Apparently, it also became a home for some owls (which is not a bad thing really).
The best artifact inside JSC is an Apollo capsule that went to the moon and back. You can actually (or could when I was last there) touch the heat shield - it's neat touching something that's been to the Moon and back. When you look at it closely, with its primitive electronics and its small size, you wonder how they ever did it.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Matrix is ALWAYS On-Topic; it surrounds you.
MATRIX THEORY !
i have submitted this as a story. WE will see how DENSE the editors are. LET THE ENERGY FLOW!
They want not just a space vehicle, they want an airplane too.
They should build an Enterprise. Built it in space for space. TO get to it use a launcher or whatever to get to the garage in space. Keep it docked in space.
Forget the shuttle, forget rockets, build the fucker in space for space. Space is the launching point for space.
SERVE GWB. GWB IS YOUR FRIEND! GWB wants you to be happy. If you are not happy, you may be used as reactor shielding. GWB is crazy. GWB is happy. GWB will help you to become happy. This will drive you crazy. Being a citizen of the Homeland is fun. GWB says so, and GWB is your friend. Rooting out traitors will make you happy. GWB tells you so. Can you doubt GWB? Being a Troubleshooter is fun. GWB tells you so. Of course, GWB is right. Troubleshooters get shot at, stabbed, incinerated, stapled, mangled, poisoned, blown to bits, and occasionally accidentally executed. This is so much fun that many Troubleshooters go crazy. You will be working with many Troubleshooters. Most of them carry M16A2s or M249s. Aren't you glad you have an M16A2 too? Won't this be fun? There are many traitors in the Homeland. There are many happy citizens in the Homeland. Most of the happy citizens are crazy. It is hard to say which are more dangerous - traitors or happy citizens. Watch out for both of them. The life of a Troubleshooter is full of surprises. Stay alert! Trust no one! Keep your M16A2 handy!
If they want my money they can sell shares, just like other companies do.
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
Out of that 5 million, only about 500 thousand is really needed. The rest goes to politics and pork.
If you want to fix it, get a group of volunteers that are willing to fix it themselves and then offer to do it.
As was discussed recently, they have a lot to teach us.
I'm not convinced at all that we should be spending billions of dollars of government money on new launchers when we have a system sitting around that works very nicely, thank you very much.
Sure, a brand new system would be better, but between the brevity of our pass by-with Mars, the vitality of private space programs, and our humbled and abused government finances, perhaps the Saturn should be more then a five million dollar paperweight and conversation piece.
And even beyond that, nothing gives perspective on a subject liking getting to look up close and personal at the gear used to do it. Especially since leading-edge gear from the seventies and earlier (like, say, the Spirit of St. Louis) always looks so DIY to anybody who pays attention.
I found it very energizing when I was a kid to see the Kennedy Space Center Saturn and think "hmm.... that wouldn't be so hard to build at all".
Rustin
Data is the lever, rigor the fulcrum, brains the force that drives it all.
Ebay anyone?
Yeah. Save the rocket. Besides being an important piece of history, it is the only thing around that burns more fuel than my SUV.
not the simpsons and austin powers, it's futurama and austin powers
(paraphrasing)bender: OH yeah! well I'll make my own theme park. With hookers and blackjack. In fact, forget the blackjack!
Humanity is much better off without monumental history.
FRA: STFU GTFO
"Other companies" structure themselves in many different ways. "Going public" does tend to raise the most money quickly, but a stock that doesn't plan to make any profit in the very near future isn't likely to get very far (especially in this economic climate) I would dismiss "just sell shares" comment as a common troll, if it weren't for the serious problems that kind of thinking has brought us in recent times.
Having fond memories of the Huntsville Space and Rocket center from my youth, I recently went with my wife and a friend. We were shocked to find the entire place in utter disrepair. Most of the rockets on display outside (including the Saturn V) were visibly rusted with many completely rusted through in spots. Most of the paint was either flaking or so sun-damaged that it would come off on your fingers with the slightest touch. Not only was the rocket park essentially a scrap heap, but the museum seemed to be now devoted almost entirely to military technology. One exhibit, the "future warrior" exhibit was particularly disturbing. I hate to think that one of our country's biggest sources of pride has shifted from scientific progress and exploring frontiers to the presumption that we are a bunch of badasses who can annihilate anyone who crosses us.
What do you expect? They put it up on blocks out on the front lawn,weeds grow up around it,a family of possums move in.The locals sit around it swilling moonshine daydreaming 'bout getting it running one day, towing it out to the pad and smoking those Russkie rockets through the quarter mile.
Thats what Alabamans do with Camaros, Mustangs, Barracudas etc.
Yeah, too bad they got rid of the Concorde, eh?
I was there last summer and it looked in fairly decent condition, but then again, it's the little stuff that will make it fail...
The $41 million number I gave was an estimate from O'Keefe to develop SM4 to completion. But it must be missing the launch costs, because those run $500 million additionally. NASA folks aren't certain where he got this number from, and this might even indicate he didn't fully think through his decision to terminate the Hubble program.
Anyway, though, I still believe this is a small cost to maintain and greatly improve upon the Hubble, as compared to the rest of NASA's budget. Especially since $200 million was already spent developing the thing.
And to another poster that responded saying James Webb will replace Hubble soon, that's not entirely true. Webb will detect near-IR wavelengths, and Hubble does near-IR/optical/UV. So while Webb will have a larger and better aperature and updated electronics, it's missing many segments of the spectrum that Hubble has.
These various telescopes are not meant to be replacements for each other, but designed to complement each other instead. Scientists were planning to point Webb and Hubble (along with perhaps FUSE and Chandra) simultaneously at certain targets, to get wide-ranging spectrum abilities. A good chunk of the spectrum will be missing if Hubble is deserviced.
make world, not war
Actually, the Saturn V doesn't look all that bad compared to an SUV. Assuming it burned about 1200 tons of kerosene+hydrogen (~500K gallons of gas) to go on a 500K mile round trip, it got about 1MPG overall, or 3MPG per astronaut. That's only about 5X worse than if each astronaut drove their own SUV to the moon and back.
Depends who you are selling to. If it's a generic company selling share to the public and speculators to raise capital for... who-knows-what, then yeh it's not a good idea.
On the other hand, if Carmack said he was selling shares in his aerospace company because he needs 100 million to get an orbiter up and back, then you can safely sign me and a whole bunch of other geeks up. Think of it as PayPal with something in return.
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
A friend of mine worked at the Space & Rocket Center for several years. The center went through big budget cuts about 4 or 5 years ago, and was really on the ropes due to the investment it made in the construction of the free standing Saturn V replica for the 30th anniversary of the moon landing. They simply don't have the money to keep things nice and 'fresh' at the moment.
Trivia: Did you know that about 10 years ago, NASA swiped the SRB nozzles and nose cones from the shuttle exhibit because it needed working equipment to actually use on a shuttle launch?
You know you've reduced the NASA budget too much when they're hocking parts off of museum exhibits. Remind me to thank Bill Clinton for being so helpful to NASA during his presidency.
I guess I am spoiled rotten, since the space museum near where I live does restoration for a living.
I wonder if they are going to have the Cosmosphere do the restoration work on the Saturn 5?
Heck, I'd bet they'd do the work for the US$1.5 they have now, if the would let the Cosmosphere display it....
www.eFax.com are spammers
Does anyone think a moldering rocket lying on it's side is going to inspire anyone? I can remember as a kid seeing "monuments" that were run down and they are not inspiring.
So fix it? hell no why waste the money?
"If any question why we died, Tell them because our fathers lied."
The US Space and Rocket Center actually has two Saturn V's; one is a the flight atricle in not terrible state (not more than KSC's was before they build the enclosure) and a test article that has been fully assembled and towers a hundred and some feet high, high enough that I can see it from my dorm window...
= ar ticle&id=museumindex&view=ind
;)
http://www.spacecamp.com/spacecamp/request?type
Simon
Because you can.
Need Mercedes parts ?
Maybe NASA can help raise money.
Bring the Apollo 11 lander back from the Moon and auction it on eBay.
(Yes, I know only the LEM descent stage is at Tranquility Base. If my memory serves me right, the rest of the LEM was crashed on the Moon so recovering that will be the hard part.)
Like de Wright Brothers' plane!
Then again... maybe not exactly "like" the plane, perhaps it would be better IF IT WORKED AT ALL!
Just explain to George W. Bush that it'll get him the votes of all the astronauts and refresh his soul if he'll paint it for you.
With respect, you're nuts. A museum must use the BEST long-term preseravtion practices, so future generations can extract the maximum amount of information from the artifact. In some cases, that means WORKING order. The artifact must be in the same condition as it was at acquisition for future scholars.
.01% of the viewers in the future have that reaction, it's worth the societal-cost of preservation.
Now, to the Saturn V...
The documents are lost. NASA, entropy, and time have most likely purged a significant ENOUGH percentage of the knowledge-base that attempting to rebuild one "from the plans" will be impossible. That is, given no examples, an attempt to build a perfect replica (I mean able to reach the moon in exactly the same way as Appolo 17) would be utterly impossible,
And it would be idiotic: Why try to navigate to the moon with those computers? The big value learned by a rocket-scientist from the S 5 are the MISTAKES to be avoided. The materials-science that made it are all thoroughly embedded in the processes currently available. (Think about the aluminum alloys developed for Apollo, and now think about the aluminum-tungsten carbide COMPOSITES developed for the F-22 Raptor.) Preserve the S 5 for the purposes of history, and appreciation, but harbor no illusions that this one will fly, nor serve as the precise template for a new anything.
"But wait, what about recovering after the fall of civilization?" Please, live in our world, play in theirs.
Finally, I've recently been to the one in Florida. I was in tears the whole time walking it's length. For THAT experience, I will help pay the $5million. If only
Were they not already being paid to take care of this stuff?
$5 million is not much money as far as NASA is concerned. Even office buildings cost more than $5 million.
Consider this:
Expenditures on National Defense in 2003:$393.8 billion
Expenditures byNASAin 2003:
$15.00 billion
The current NASA budget is 3.809% of the current defense budget.
If the National Defence budget was cut by just 10%, and that money given to NASA, the NASA budget would be increased by more than 260%.
And $5 million is just .1% of NASA's budget.
One thing that stikes me every time I drive through southern states (North Carolina,South Carilina, Georgia, Alabama,etc) is the compete lack of public self-respect. Especially on the major highways. Each state has tons of sites to see and even sites woth seeing, but you wouldn't guess it from the highway.
Instead of seeing the museum as an expense they should view it as a moneymaker ($tourism). Alabama politicians must be just plain stupid to let the U.S. Space and Rocket Center fall apart. Maybe the federal government should step in and confiscate these national treasures?
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
The big question is why did a moon mission require a huge rocket like the Saturn V? The Thumping Big Rocket idea is a very inefficient and expensive way to get to space. A far better idea would have been to get most of the way to Earth orbit on the back of a plane. Planes use atmospheric oxygen to burn their fuel rather than carrying liquid oxygen with them like a rocket. The Saturn V was nothing more than a very big missile.
is not what it once was. It has ceased to be a source of knowledge and inspiration. It is presently a noting more than a giant US Army recruiting center. The science exhibits have been replaced by shallow minded crap.
I first visited there in the mid 1970s when I was a young teenager. I was entralled. I took my son last year and I thought I would be sick. The rocket farm was almost non-existent. The really great science exhibits, like the chair that demonstrated gyroscopic precession, were gone.
Unless they can take the space museum back to what it once was, they will get no help from me.
I live in Huntsville, and I can tell you that the Space & Rocket Center is lucky to even still be open. This is not however all the Center's fault: there's very little new in the world of spaceflight that will draw a crowd.
Maybe that will change soon.
There's one preserved in the NASA center in Florida. Why must we seek to preserve everything?? That $5 million is better spent on making future historical relics. Send the money to the Planetary Society, Artemis Society, Mars Society or do a private placement in a venture like Armadillo Aerospace.
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They spent something like $15million building a replica that is upright when they should have moved and restored the original instead.The space center is pretty well known in hunstville for being rather corrupt, at least in the past.
Why, if the rocket is owned by the U.S. Government (I believe the rocket is owned by NASA and leased to the center) and the Rocket Center, which is owned by the State of Alabama on U.S. ground (Marshall SFC / Redstone Arsenal), are they going to private sources for funding of this restoration? There is a little thing called taxes which are already diverted to the center.
... older kids went to "Space Academy") when I was there was the oldest piece on the training center floor. I kid you not, it was so badly wired that it caught fire inside the electrical panels (the structure was hand-built and mostly wood and wires). No, not just once ... but at least 3 times just while I had kids in it (and I watched one of literally dozens of teams most weeks). The answer was always to evacuate the kids, put out the fire, replace any bad wires, and open it back up for the next time. I'm not kidding ... the place should have been shut down by the fire marshall and sued by parents. And yes, we brought this to the attention of management on a regular basis as did the maintenance staff.
...
Also, it is largely the Rocket Center's fault that things got so bad. I worked there for 2 years as a counselor about a decade ago and the condition of the exhibit then was the same as it is now (minus another 10 layers of paint and mildew/moss/etc). Guess what their idea of maintaining the exhibit was to go out every year and paint over the past year's mildew with a new layer of paint. Anyone who knows about paint, mold and mildew will realize what decades of overpainting will do. I'm sure that covering the exhibit with a simple structure like a tent-roof, while expensive, would have cost less than $5m when they first set up the exhibit, even counting for inflation since then, especially if they had leveraged their relationship with the army engineers on Redstone Arsenal.
Of course, the USSRC had very short-sighted management throughout the time I worked there as well as for at least a few years before and after I left. They continuously had smaller exhibits break down and their maintenance was horrible. They had great exhibits, but didn't do a good job of keeping them up.
Other examples? Sure:
* The simulator used for Space Camp (elementary age
* Most of the other rockets in the park have a similar problem and undergo the same painting "refresh". The difference is they are mostly upright and so it is not as visible (and they're alot smaller). Except for their shuttle mockup, which is going to have the same issues in a few years as the SV exhibit.
* The Shuttle tank usually has pennies and pencils stuck in it from kids tossing them into it. They usually clean them out about once a year. Not sure what the solution for this would be, but even a sign saying "hey, please don't deface this exhibit" would have been useful.
* The "centrifuge" exhibit/ride continuously broke down. It sometimes was down for a week or more. It was very popular, but instead of getting a real overhaul one year they just shut it down and scrapped it.
Additionally
- Space Camp programs, during the years I was there, brought in a tidy profit. However, the museum was in such disrepair that it was a loss center. So, instead of Space Camp programs being able to expand and fix things properly, money was diverted to the museum to keep it afloat.
- During the years I was there it was standard practice to lay off everyone they could during the holiday months. While this is practical it also had the add bonus (to the center) of marking all of us as Seasonal employees. This meant that we didn't have to be paid benefits.
- Along with no benefits, even though some counselors had been there for years, there was also no overtime. Think that being scheduled for 80+ hours a week (a few of us worked 2 programs, and I know of at least 4 people including myself who -averaged- 80 hours in the summer and sometimes hit 100 hours
It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
save decaying rockets.
The Huntsville Saturn V is a pre-production model, it was never built to be launched. Now the Houston Saturn V, thats the only one left thats made of 100% flight ready components. The first two stages of the Houston Saturn V were meant to be part of Apollo 19.
It is clear that the Houston Saturn V is the most authentic, too bad its in detoriating shape also.
like a music program at public schools.
save decaying rockets!!
This is getting out of hand... /. thread, I've read about Saturn V rockets in Houston, Orlando, Huntsville, and Kennedy Space Center.
In this
(I saw the one at KSC last summer... spectacular and very well kept. Bigger than I imagined.)
I thought there were 3 Saturn V rockets, from Apollo 18, 19, and 20.
Can anyone clarify??
Thanks.
$7.95/mo, 200 GB disk, 2TBxfer, MySQL, PHP, RoR.
Estes still makes and sells a Saturn V kit, but a small outfit in CO sells a bigger version, with instructions in MPEG video form on CD-ROM:
http://www.apogeerockets.com/Saturn5.asp
Leaving the old Saturn V out in the rain and "losing" the blueprints was probably NASA's way of defending the Shuttle program from any attempt to reinstate the "big firework you use once and throw away" approach to space flight.
I spent one evening in the mid-90's at the Kaffeeklatch--Huntsville's premiere blues* emporium. Ended up sitting with a few folks who after a sufficient quantity of alcohol, voluntereered that they worked in the space program, and that their undertanding was that in addition to the hulks on display at the Huntsville museum and elsewhere, there was supposed to be *another*, complete Saturn/Apollo system, carefully mothballed and maintained in one of the huge underground bunkers at the Redstone Arsenal. The idea was that if something unexpected happened (like the Russians going to the moon and setting up a weapon of some sort), the US could, on about six months' notice, get someone back to the moon. Just once. Seemed at the time like just about a wild enough story to be true.
*For those who've never been to that part of the country, you bet blues is alive and well in the heart '0 Dixie. Seems to have become color-blind as well. As an example, go check out Microwave Dave and the Nukes
...It's Alabama after all, it'll blend in with the scenery. ;)
Anonymous Joe
just below the Tenn-Alabama border there is a visitor centor and what appears to be a mockup of a saturn-5, compleat. And I will be damned if I only had one picture left in my camera. The saturn-5 program takes me bact to grade-jr high school when a 19 inch b&w television was brought in (one in each classroom) and the whole school stopped and we watched the launch(s)
I eat my grapes at room temperature, cuz the cold ones hurt my teeth
The Saturn V could be rebuilt today, but would cost a lot due to reengineering. It's not that the plans were lost, but that technology has changed. Many things available in the 1960's are not available any more, because they've been replaced by improved technologies. For example, Saturn V had sequencers, not computers. The whole rocket could be run with the equivalent of a mini-itx board saving a lot of weight and complexity over the old sequencer circuitry, but the reengineering would cost millions.
The engines themselves were relatively unremarkable (except for their amazing size) scale-ups of typical kerosine-LOX engines of the 1960's. Easy to make new ones if we wanted to.
If tits were wings it'd be flying around.
I remember looking at that sucker up close back in... '98, '99 and she was starting to look aged.
I also remember it because I was on the space shot and got a good view of her, and the fact one of the toughest guys in class who liked bothering me and harassing me pissed his pants on that ride.. hoo boy, fun.
anyone been to huntsville? remember the mars rover thing they had there?
the little remote contolled toy rovers in the display on one side, the controls on the other side of the center..
anyways, my point is, I saw the rocket (was sideways IRC) and it was in bad shape, and shit, putting it in alabama without preserving it? big mistake, you got humidity, you got rain, you got unbearable heat (thanks to the humidity) and then you have icy winters and sometimes snow....
yet they didnt preserve it in the first place? shame on them.
by Percy Bysshe Shelley
I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said--"Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert . . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandius, King of Kings,
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."
"I'm so moist I'm sticking to the leather." -Kermit the Frog on The Late Late Show
Seeing as George W. has just tried to commit the US to considerable amounts of new hardware I do wonder whether the Saturn V could be used as a basis for a heavy lift rocket to get some Mars-bound hardware into earth orbit for assembly.
I always regretted that I was too young to see a real Saturn V launch, I've never wanted to see the shuttle launches in person, but getting the chance to stand on the rattling ground and have my ears and body cavities shaken by five F1s is something that would get me on a plane without any pushing.
It will be interesting to see what transpires assuming that this new mission plan can be turned into reality.
-- BtB
This is a nifty table that explains why Russian engines are so desireable.
This is a fluffier piece on the RD-180, now being built in the US under license.
Finally, this is a crowded table of all the Energomash engines. NOTE: this table's hard to read, and you'll find some WILD variants...
Having grown up in the 50s and 60s, I have great love for the early days of the American space program. I still have a large collection of newspaper clippings from the Gemini and Apollo days, and a 3-inch reel-to-reel tape of the first moon landing, recorded off the tv speaker as I watched it live, holding my breath along with the mission controllers.
However, a Saturn V rocket was built to go out in a blaze of glory, not to endure decades of weather. It's an impressive artifact, as anyone who has stood beside it will agree, but I don't think restoring a badly deteriorated example is worth millions of dollars. The only way to preserve it effectively would be to house it in a special building to prevent further weathering. And it's so damn big! I would rather see the original construction specs and a set of detailed photos preserved, in case some future generations want to make a life-size replica using more advanced materials.
...wait a minute. Burt doesn't really need it, does he? Looks like he's gonna do it anyway. :)
It's just sad that NASA will piddle away whatever money they're given on administrative junk. Remember the space station debacle?
But what's even more sad is that a model airplane builder with $10 mil. is going to burst their bubble.
Your comments are interesting, but I guarantee you that your experience is nothing compared to that of working for the Florida operation.
Imagine the same thing but with 1/10 the facilities, no advanced programs, and little concern for the outcome of the project!
Do you mean I-65?
While it was still in good condition, my wife and I saw this on one of our trips back to my home state. I have a picture of her standing next to one of the five nozzles. That nozzle is about 3 times as wide as she is tall, IIRC.
Sad to hear it's in a state of decay. I guess the humidity is too much for it.
I'm sure it would still keep a few engineers/scientists in employment for a year.
That was classic intercourse!
I thoughtful reply on Slashdot. I never though I'd see the day. I'll have to respond in a simlarly uncharacteristically /. manner.
You're right! Good Point.
Peter: Ah crap, how am I gonna get $50000 by tomorrow? ...Awkward pause, as everyone looks at Quagmire...
Quagmire: Well, you could whore yourself out to 1000 fat chicks for $50 each... or 50 REALLY fat chicks for $1000!
Quagmire: Hey. Don't look at me like that. Fat chicks need love too, they just gotta pay for it.
Cleveland: We could have a bake sale...
Frink: Nice try floyd, but you were designed for scrubbing, and scrubbing is what you shall do.
The only thing more depressing than a moldering Saturn V in a tourist trap, is a shiny man-rated Saturn V in a tourist trap.
Its a shame that the Buran and the Space Shuttle were developed in competition rather than cooperating on a space system that would be better than each individual system. If NASA used a lift system like Energia or the Energia itself, we would probably still have Challenger and Columbia which could be fitted to say, land on the moon or mars and then launch like a plane using internal fuel tanks and the SSMEs to return to earth.
With the cancelling of Venture Star and pipe dreams like the Space Plane, there aren't that many options left, and money isn't in great supply.
So back to the topic at hand, I read the restoration plan for the Saturn V at USS&RC. Nowhere does it mention any type of protection, just restoration. So in another five years it's going to cost another 5 mil to restore? Screw that, come up with a plan that doesn't require continued large spending.
some more interesting reading on Saturn V
I use to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.
FWIW, I don't know who paid to have the Saturn V stack at KSC refurbished, but I think it's owned by the Smithsonian and on indefinite loan to KSC. I'd bet that the costs of restoring the Huntsville rocket could be covered by tourists coming to see it in a similar facility.
I don't think NASA could or would revive the Saturn V. From what I have read all the blueprints are either gone or unreadable, and any existing Saturn V would be in far to rough shape to fly. The tools required would no longer exist even if they wanted to try.
NASA could probably just as well buy a Russian Energia rocket. Apparently that was even more powerful than the Saturn V and was built to launch the Russian Space Shuttle Buran.
Another option would be to assemble the spacecraft in low earth orbit or on the Moon, and launching up the parts using existing rockets such as the Titan IV
I used to live there, and did see a shuttle launch from work. It was pretty impressive to see somthing that far away.
Language students: Don't try to learn English here. This ain't it.
...but I like the idea of doing this with all of the ole ICBM's that one where ready to blow up the world. Drain (or scrape) them free of fuel and set them out to rust in peace.
God damned blood sucking bureaucrats. If they don't want it, sell it.
Imagine the gall of begging from the people robbed at gunpoint to build it in the first place!
Thrice damned tax leaches. To hell with them.
Bob-
The Ludwig von Mises Institute. The reasoning individuals economics
Most major airports have big buildings that might be large enough to house a Saturn V. If it's put in a passenger terminal, it's an attraction that will bring people to the shops in the terminal. If it's put in an unused or little-used hangar, it can be a paid-admission exhibit. Plastering over the holes and repainting it can be done for a lot less than a million dollars.
Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
The true embarassing moment will come when the Chinese go to the moon, land at Tranquility Base, fold up the US flag, and put up theirs. They'll probably bring home the US flag and put it on display in Beijing.
they are not going to service Hubble for safety reasons. The shuttle is going use the ISS as a refuge in case of emergencies.
Hubble is in an entirely different orbit which would leave the shuttle without enough fuel to go to the ISS in case of emergency
Try the book "Mars Direct," IIRC from the book it could cost as little as 40 billion dollars using small, light pods (and the author's credentials in this are somewhat better than John Glen's). NASA's own estimates, using the "massive spacecraft of doom" approach, place it at ten times that, but still nowhere close to the figure you quoted.
Not to say that these are small change, but they are far far from the $1 trillion figure you mentioned.
Also, that's in government dollars: it could also be done at a fraction of the cost by private industry.
Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
Why waste $5 million fixing up an ancient rocket that will never fly when NASA is pinching pennies everywhere else? The money, if available, should be spent on progress, for which NASA has always stood, rather than nostalgia.
Ridiculous.
I suppose the moon is made of blue cheese after all.
the money saved from a cut in the space program could reduce it even more.
Forty years outdoors ? The Saturn V was built in 1963 ? Huntsville has the Apollo 17 or 18 flight hardware, so I don't see that this is the case.
Light 'er up and thar mold will fall off!
Man I love his music!!!
http://music.mysic.com/Taj_Mahal.html
Pictures of the Rocket Park
More pictures of the Rocket Park
Picture of the Saturn5
. . . we no longer possess a rocket powerful enough to send humans even as far as the Moon. . . . Nor could we quickly build a new Saturn V because, amazingly, the plans for Saturn launchers were destroyed as part of a NASA housecleaning exercise.
b _vae_pg_205/002-9859089-1211215?%5Fencoding=UTF8&k eywords=saturn%20v&p=S068&twc=4&checkSum=y305LsM1f sDb9ICtDFTWocZin%2BkpbNmn9NVEycXMNR4%3D#reader-lin k
Source: A Short History of Nearly Everything, by Bill Bryson, p. 205
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0767908171/ref=si
Even if the first mission is very dangerous and has no scientific significance. I doubt Columbus got much practical benefits from his trip either. I think it's pretty clear what the humanity wants to do in space for long term, and it's more than snapping pretty pictures.
Wow! If you could get 5000 geeks to give just 10 bucks a piece, then that $1,500,000 towards an $8,000,000 million goal would grow to $1,550,000! If you could get 10,000 to donate $25 each you would grow the $1,500,000 to $1,750,000 (not that such numbers are very likely). And, of course, that doesn't even take into account Paypal's charges for doing this! And you think people are going to do this to preserve a discarded tin can? Don't we have better causes to focus our funds on?
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
This is an urban legend.
see here for details.
Jon Acheson
All opinions expressed herein are my own, and not those of my employers, who are appalled.
Interview in The Onion AV club. No mention of Von Braun, Herr or Frau.
Tony.
-- "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" -- Juvenal
Oh
My
God!
Boy, it's been a long time since I've seen those words. Fer yew ignorant young folks, the parent to this post is a paraphrasing of the classic game Paranoia!
Yes, dice, pen, and paper gaming, the one true faith.
Rustin
Data is the lever, rigor the fulcrum, brains the force that drives it all.
fuck you gnaa rules
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