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Are Geeks in Saudi Arabia Just Like Us?
Robin 'Roblimo' Miller (of NewsForge and sometimes Slashdot) spent five days in Saudi Arabia's capital, Riyadh, meeting with local Linux advocates and users, and wrote five articles while he was there. The article titles are Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes, Saudi Space Institute techies love their new Linux computer, Meet Saudi Arabia's most famous computer expert, Saudi open source conference opens minds, and Linux and open source opportunities in the Mideast. This is the first in-depth look ever at open source (and programming in general) in a conservative Islamic country. Roblimo concludes that under the robes, Saudi geeks are much like geeks everywhere, but from comments on the stories it looks like a lot of people don't agree.
Hey, now the Israelis and the Saudis can team up! You knew Open Source was going to turn political.
Roblimo concludes that under the robes, Saudi geeks are much like geeks everywhere
What's that exactly supposed to mean?
Or . . .
Show them a picture of Natalie Portman and gauge their reaction.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
It depends. Do they use Vi or *shudder*Emacs?
#include "sig.h"
Perhaps this tendency is what causes geeks to be more or less similar in that we tend to care more about our field(s) of choice than things like government propaganda. Geeks tend not to be racist because hate takes time and effort that could be better applied to developing a better understanding of the universe. Besides, if you give in to stupid petty hatreds, you might miss something that some member of one of those social groups has to say about computers, or astronomy, or what have you.
One thing that comes back to me time and time again is that people all over the world have the same potential. One thing that has led me to that conclusion is geekdom. Racism or most other -isms would just get in the way.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
There is no comparison. Here in America we play Dungeons and Dragons. Over in the Middle East its Dunes and Djinis. Nope, nothing in common.
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
Why wouldn't they be "just like us"?
In Saudi Arabia the Linux zealot will blow himself up when his company goes with a Microsoft solution.
think it would be great if we all actually *did* get along just once. If geeks can help that, so much the better!
C|N>K
> Roblimo concludes that under the robes, Saudi geeks are much like geeks everywhere
Even the most rudimentary biological knowledge should have tipped you off that what's under the robes is just like what's under the jeans, kilt, or lederhosen.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
They're just like the geeks in the USA, except that their non-existant girlfriends have fewer rights.
You are in error. No-one is screaming. Thank you for your cooperation.
I found at least a dozen anonymous surfing sites that let me view all the porn anyone could want in less than 30 minutes
Surfing pr0n in Saudi and then writing about it. I hope he gets out of the country.
in saudi arabia, geeks have the advantage of women being forced to marry them.....
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Ten differences between a Saudi geek and a Stateside geek:
1. The Saudi geeks don't have cellars.
2. They browse from right to left.
3. Stateside geeks have longer hacking sessions, not being required to stop for prayers every few hours.
4. Saudi geeks have better weather.
5. Saudi geeks drink tea, while stateside geeks drink coffee.
6. Saudi geeks get more work done, not reading Slashdot as often.
7. Stateside geeks wear sandals, Saudi geeks wear Gucci.
8. Stateside geeks rarely dress in white.
9. Saudi geeks speak at least two languages - Arab and English. Stateside geeks hardly speak at all.
10. Saudi geeks go camel-riding in the weekends. Stateside geeks don't have weekends.
My blog
Last week was an excellent example to see if geeks in Saudia Arabia work similar.
:)) excellent phpMyFAQ, I am eager to (let) translate them into as many languages as possible (actually, I'm working on a Latin translation right now).
As a part time team member of the (imho
Last time we got to know that someone from the Arabic community has done this already.
Unfortunatly, my Arabic is still far too broken to be used in daily conversation or even letters. It took some time and attempts to get into contact with them. Well, it seems that this week, the phpmyfaq will be shipped as a version 1.3.9-pl2, introducing Arabic support, thanks to these great people.
If someone speaks this beatiful language, he/she might check out these forum threads:
swalif
or alqafelah
This is one of the arabic phpmyfaqs: ksavb.com. Pretty interesting style imho.
The arabic language file was first spotted on albakr
Doesn't this look like the cute Arabic sister of freshmeat.net?
It does sound twisted, but because it is in context of a country where free speech is quite restricted - the thought did pop in my head.
Could it happen that some day spamming techniques or "spammers" will be hired by people who want to exercise their free speech ? You could spam with censored information when every other means of getting your voice heard is suppressed ?
Full Disclosure - I don't know spam. I have never sent spam. I don't like spam.
To see a world in a grain of sand, and then to step back and see the beach where the sand lies
Roblimo's article highlight -perhaps inadvertently- the important and profound differences between the open source and free software communities. While these communities collaborate as a practical matter, and may need each other for their survival, one is political and principled, the other pragmatic and concerned overall with technological imperatives.
So is there a problem with this? I believe there is. You see, Microsoft, or any other software development house, can afford to optimize its development methodology or even start from scratch a la Apple, if it really became all that self-evident to them that they were technically and financially failing. So one of two things can happen:
1) if they throw enough money at the problem, they will match our technical achivements. Apple started from scratch and has produced a decent OS built on top of BSD/Darwin/Mach. So it is doable.
2) They do not match our technical achiviements. Yet at the end of the day, if the only thing we care about is having an open source operating system regardless of whether it advances the cause of freedom, then the labor of love of all these years will seem a little less meaningful to many of us. To me, it will be all seem pretty hollow.
And here's where I have a problem with Roblimo's articles. He does not question the irony that the Saudy monarchy is using free software to exercise censorship and control. Even if some of can be circumvented, it is perversed to those that believe in Free Software to see this happen. And in respecting the freedom of the license, we must allow it, but we should call oppression by its name when we come across it and he did not have the guts to do it.
He could have looked for hactivists in Saudi Arabia to see what tools they were using and how they were furthering the cause of freedom. He could have spoken to dissidents, but he didin't. It's easy to stay at a comfy hotel and write from the sidelines. It's easier to be an expectator paying lipservice to free softaware than to stand up for what free softare actually represents.
In summary, being technically superior without being morally committed to the cause of freedom is a very hollow undertaking.
Pragmatism as an ideology is not particularly pragmatic in the long term. Keep it in mind when you dismiss Free Software
Does anyone else consider this topic to be implicitly racist? Arabs aren't fucking aliens. It reminds me of the Chris Rock joke (paraphrased):
When Collin Powel considered running for president, all the white people mentioned that "He speaks so well. He speaks so well". How the fuck is he supposed to speak? "Ima be pres-o-dent!"
geez.
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, reports from the women themselves, etc.
Here's an example of Saudi Arabian barbarism towards women and girls: Religious police make girls die in fire because they aren't wearing headscarves
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
This smacks of something out of a teen girls magazine!
Are Muslim field hockey players just like us other girls?
GAH!
"Helping to keep you two steps ahead of the Thought Police!"
to work in Saudi Arabia, and after some thought, elected not to do so. I spent some time there during a military stint, and had the opportunity to interact with a number of Saudis (in the medical field, which is what I would have been doing there).
I discussed the job possibility with my wife (the money was very, very good), but her life would have taken a dramatic turn for the worse in that country. Women there (particularly foreign, christian women) do NOT have the same rights as men. Among other things, you can be detained by the religious police (different from the regular police) if you are a female out in public, not accompanied by at least one male relative. Not wearing an abayah (female headgear) in public is asking for trouble.
I should point out that lots of westerners live in walled compounds, so you don't really have to interact with the regular population if you don't really want to... but who wants to be cooped up in a walled compound for a year or two? The security we had at our military base was ridiculous (and necessary), and the compounds did not have the same level of security. Remember those car bomb attacks in Riyadh last year? They wouldn't have stood a snowball's chance at our military compound... that's the kind of security I'm talking about.
It's a very different culture, and a tough environment to walk into as a freedom-loving american... despite the excellent cash compensation. You really have to bite your tongue, be polite, keep your opinions to yourself, and be a gracious guest. Saudi justice is not american justice (in court, if it's a muslim's word against a christian's word, the christian can lose automatically) You're NOT a citizen there, and if you forget that detail, you can get yourself in serious trouble.
Good money, and I'm sure they could use a few geeks... but know what you're getting yourself into. Lots of TCNs (third country nationals) work there... Britts, French, etc, and some of them seemed to like it... but it wasn't for me.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
The 'fact', and those websites, refer to the Saudi geeks, not to the people in general or their leaders. Perhaps the Saudi geeks are indeed like us, in the sense that they tend to be more openminded, better educated, more tolerant, and less dogmatic in their religions than the general populace. Instead of spending time on the Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International websites, you may find it worthwhile to try and get to know some Saudi's, so you can form an opinion firsthand.
Also don't forget that it isn't very long ago when people in western civilisations thought of women in much the same way as certain Muslim zealots do.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
I doubt this is true. The same love for computers and tech? Probably. But this doesn't make them "the same". I really doubt that many Saudi Geeks would have the same libertarian, open-society, atheistic outlook that many geeks here in the US seem to have.
There seems to be this big misconception that anyone who likes computers is therefore a "geek" and also therefore has a similar political/philosophical outlook.
This isn't to say that I think everyone in Saudi Arabia is some kind of crazy religious zealot, but if you grow up in that kind of environment, a lot of it would probably rub off on you.
The Saudis, at least the people in charge, are like the Taliban with gold Rolexes.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
It's not just geeks. It's not just USA and Saudi-Arabia.
Physiologically people are quite the same. Some have folds in their eyes, some have lost pigment from their skin and some have fat in different places. These are only cosmetical differences. Inside we're all the same.
If you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you'll see that the bottom layers are physiological, safety, and love. These are what every person in the world wants. They don't want to sit in the cold, they don't want to be hungry and they don't want to be afraid. (Yet some are.) And people want love and want to love.
The only substantial difference between different nations is due to culture. Some are born in conservative countries, some in liberal. Others live in religious areas, others have secular rule. Yet despite this, people still practice arts, science, whatever. You have geeks in Saudi-Arabia and deeply religious people in USA.
Whatever group of people you look, you'll find innovative people there. I recently received a revelation about this subject while reading "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond. (Excellent book, recommended). His examples showed how people have adapted to all sorts of environments and made the best use of available resources. If this does not restore your faith in mankind, nothing will.
It is true that there is a deep cultural divide between the Western world and the countries of the East, and I don't see the current political situation to lessen the situation at all. However, this is mostly due to ignorance. If you see two small children playing with toys, do you care if one of them is a Jew and another one an Arab? Do the children care? No.
If Mr. Bush had met Mr. Hussein in a neutral and safe environment before the war, would they have fought with their bare fists. Probably not. Their nations fought one another, perhaps even their ideologies. But the people themselves... you can hardly ever find a good reason to strike at your fellow man. (This teaching, it would seem, lies at the heart of every religion. Sadly it is not observed very often.)
The only way to fight this is to get rid of the prejudice and the fear. If you can, travel to different countries and try to see beneath the surface. People are the same, even in France. Try to learn about different cultures. If you can't spare the money, go to http://www.wikipedia.org/ and read about the different achievements of cultures both long gone and present. Read about their times of glory and downfall. Go to a library and read a book. (Once again I recommend "Guns, Germs and Steel".
I'd like to end this rant with a quote from Charlie Chaplin. At the end of "The Dictator," the Jewish barber (who looks like Adolf Hynkel) gives a rather touching speech about universal harmony. (Emphasis mine.)
"I'm sorry but I don't want to be an emperor. That's not my business. I don't want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone if possible; Jew, Gentile, black men, white. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each others' happiness, not by each other's misery. We don't want to hate and despise one another.
In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed has poisoned men's souls; has barricaded the world with hate; has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge as made us cynical; our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little.
More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. The aeroplane and the radio have brought us closer together. The very nature of these things cries out for the goodness in man; cries out for universal brotherhood; for the unity of us all."
[ Antti Rasinen ]
That's talking about Saudi fundamentalists, not Saudi geeks. You know, there are "Christian" fundamentalists in America who believe that women should have no rights, too, but we don't go round accusing all Americans of believing that.
There are probably people in Norway who believe things that would disgust you as well as me, but I'm not going to accuse you of beliving the same things as they do just because you live in the same country. Please accord Saudis the same respect.
I find it interesting that ANY attempt to portray any other aspect of Saudi life, with all that implies, that doesn't include the familiar propaganda, which of course may be true, is met with furious opposition as any statement other than the party line on the subject should be put down.
The articles in question were vignettes on a much more human, reasonable side of Saudi life. Oh, the heresy. These complaints smack of 1980's propaganda about the Soviet Union wherein any attempt to humanize even the most lowly of citizens on the other side to a degree that didn't fit that approved portrayal was viewed as practically treasonous.
If the articles concluded that Saudi Arabia was a wonderful idyllic land of nothing but brotherly and sisterly love with no social problems, fine, fire away. However, the writer has acknowledged the problems and chosen to move on, leaving that analysis to the droves of writers that have already written volumes on the subject and continue every day.
This sort of journalism illustrates what isn't on the standard yellow journalistic boilerplate and does so with integrity. The endless spewing of vitriol at such an objective account shows the fragility of the standard-issue American view on all things foreign and belies its assumed basis in truth.
Conversations with geeks in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are similar to conversations with geeks anywhere, and most of the ones I have met so far are smart, young, single men who are addicted to the problem-solving aspect of programming.
....
I know of many geeks who are not single. For the rest, it is the society/media that glamorizes football jocks and the thugs these days over people who are in the field of science/technology
In which case, they need to wear burkas, not work, and be totally subservient to their man.
Geeks tend not to be racist because hate takes time and effort that could be better applied to developing a better understanding of the universe.
Please. Most American geeks tend not to be white-supremacists or anything like that because modern American culture abhors that kind of thinking. You won't find any kind of "racist" anywhere, unless you look very hard.
On the other hand, have you ever read slashdot? Look at all the anti-Indian hysteria in any thread about H1-B or off shoring. It's the same unthinking "us vs. them, they're taking our jobs" attitude that all racism is borne out of. Maybe they won't take the final step to true racism (i.e. anyone of Indian decent == bad), but it's just as bad (any Indian == bad job stealer).
A couple years ago, there was an article about a fiber-optic link around Africa. I was shocked when I read the comments. People were pissed, like it was some kind of a waste (even though it was being done by African countries expecting to make a profit). The racist comments in that thread were beyond the pail.
Geeks have just as much capacity for ugliness as anyone else. I'm willing to bet that "geeks" in SA have the same sort of opinions on religious diversity, women's rights, etc that most of the country does, which is pretty bad.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Most people are just people trying to live their lives, with the nutbag assholes being in the vast minority. Unfortunately it doesn't take many nutbag assholes to ruin the image of everyone else.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
He peeked under the robes to see if they are like Scotsman.
[leaps behind politically correct flame-proof wall]
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
How many penguins are in Saudi Arabia?
Probably about the same number of (native) penguins that are in North America and Europe.
My next sig will be ready soon, but friends can beat the rush!
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
true, but in America it isn't official policy supposedly based on the word of God to treat women like animals. In this country, it is the pefect right of someone to be a hard core Chrisitan fundamentalist male chauvinist. However, this person can not use these values in the work place or in society beyond a certain limit without being sued or arrested.
less Geek -> Geek -> more Geek
;)
Emacs Vi Emacs
Vi is for pussies.
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
(generally, $120,000 and up, plus signing bonus.)
Actually, it was more than that.
Perhaps this is difficult for you to understand, but Americans are extremely fond of speaking their minds... both in private, and public. In America, if I wanted to walk around in front of a catholic church with a blood-drenched picture of the pope, accusing him of horrible crimes, I could do it (not that I would, but you get the idea). In Saudi Arabia, that could get you beheaded.
I would not want to force my wife to wear something she didn't agree with, particularly something that is required by a religion we don't practice, that ostensibly puts her in a subservient position. I consider women to be my equal in virtually everything, excepting perhaps physical size and strength. I have a problem with subjecting my wife to possible humiliation, interrogation, and virtual imprisonment just to make a few bucks.
Judging by the reaction of muslims when their women are prohibited from wearing veils in schools and drivers license photographs, it's obvious you can appreciate my point. You don't like being forced, and neither do I.
As for being courteous and polite, that goes both ways... you could expect my politeness to end, with extreme prejudice, the moment some muttawa religious policeman tried to strike my wife with his stick because he could see skin above her ankles in public. All cultural differences aside, if you strike a man's wife in front of him, you'd better be prepared for the consequences, whether you're Saudi or American.
Call me an ugly american if you want, but I have a problem with asking my wife to live in an environment like that, even for a year or two... I simply have too much respect for her.
Some things are more important than money.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
First to dispel some misconceptions: The women on the roads here think it is just as crazy that their counterparts in Saudi can't drive. Alcohol is available at hotels, restaurants, and in liquor stores. There is essentially no dress code for visitors, and we see plenty of tank tops and belly-button rings. Women don't wear veils or always black, because that's not part of Islam - that's a recent part of Saudi culture. Plenty of women wear jeans and t-shirts. Birth control pills are available at subsidized rates and are encouraged. And of course there are all of the modern ammenities you'd expect: water, power, cheap gas, shopping malls, movie theaters, Starbucks and McDonalds and satellite TV, just like everywhere else.
Second, there are a number of ways in which life here compares favorably to life back home (I'm American): in day to day living, things are less oppressive here. When you get pulled over by the cops, you get immediately get out of your car and shake hands with the cop and exchange pleasantries. You would get shot doing this where I lived in LA. Speaking of getting shot, there are no guns here. Well, there are rifles of course, but murder is exceedinly rare. In fact, the last one was some Texan woman who murdered her oil-worker husband with the aid of her son. There is virtually no crime to speak of at all. No metal detectors in schools, no looking over your shoulder in dark alleys, no worries or concerns about getting carjacked or mugged or harassed in any way. I rarely lock my car, never lock my house. Punishment for crimes is indeed swift, certain and severe, but a trial by jury is guaranteed - kind of like small-town USA. Medical care? Free. For everyone, foreign or Omani.
Freedom? There sure seems to be. All citizens vote for parliament members. There are female doctors, professors, ministers - you're free to choose to do whatever you want with your life. Freedom of religion too. A couple of my jewish friends have been out to visit and loved this place. You're much more free here to go where you like, camp where you like, eat and drink and smoke where you like. Cops in Arizona (well, rangers), in the middle of nowhere, busted me for trespassing and not camping at a designated campsite. And here I was used to rolling up any old place, pitching a tent, making a fire, cooking up some pork sausages I picked up from the local supermarket, surfing and fishing wherever I chose.
Next to my folks' house in California people had a 'vote no on prop 22' sign on their front lawn (the bill that would have allowed gay marriage, which was voted down). Racial hate crimes and general tension are vastly greater in the states than here - Oman is historically a melting pot because of all its sea-faring trade. Oh, and unlike in here, I needed a license to catch a fish and a permit for wherever I wanted to go fishing back in California.
The point of all this is that things are never black and white, and these countries out here are almost nothing like what the evening news and our elected officials would have us believe.
A-Bomb
I dont even want to comment on how many camel jokes i read in that list of posts, I'm not offended but to be quite frank you are playing up to a stereotype of ignorance.
Saudi geeks are much like any other geeks, religion is not a factor in being a geek, culture is not a factor in being a geek, just a love of what you do and in the case of computer geeks it's computers.
Having lived in saudi for the first 18 years of my life before going away to university I'd say that saudi geeks are the same as they are anywhere. if anythign the "restrictive" society leads more people to be introversive and there are more people that spend far too much time in front of computer screens, there are also a surprising number of women that go on to do degrees in computing, which one can assume is and extension of their geekiness.
I've seen geeks around the world and they are the same, we dont ride camels to work, or flying carpets, we don't have hot and cold running oil.
In the city I live in there are entire shopping malls dedicated to selling computer parts, every where you go you are hassled by people who are trying to sell you pirated software. computers are an enourtmous thing here, because there is nothing else to do. some people use their computers to play games, some people use them to mess around with photos, some use them to hack about with code, some just spend hours surfing the net and talking to people that they normally wouldn't be able to talk to in person due to the restrictions of the society (mainly the opposite sex, regardless of which sex they are, there is little intermingling for most people but some are more liberated.)
anyway it's nice to see that everyone is so openminded and such and that being at the frontiers of counter culture you aren't swayed by stereo types...