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Are Geeks in Saudi Arabia Just Like Us?
Robin 'Roblimo' Miller (of NewsForge and sometimes Slashdot) spent five days in Saudi Arabia's capital, Riyadh, meeting with local Linux advocates and users, and wrote five articles while he was there. The article titles are Saudi Arabia: Linux advocates in white robes, Saudi Space Institute techies love their new Linux computer, Meet Saudi Arabia's most famous computer expert, Saudi open source conference opens minds, and Linux and open source opportunities in the Mideast. This is the first in-depth look ever at open source (and programming in general) in a conservative Islamic country. Roblimo concludes that under the robes, Saudi geeks are much like geeks everywhere, but from comments on the stories it looks like a lot of people don't agree.
And? Geeks are the same everywhere.
You are not the customer.
Hey, now the Israelis and the Saudis can team up! You knew Open Source was going to turn political.
Roblimo concludes that under the robes, Saudi geeks are much like geeks everywhere
What's that exactly supposed to mean?
Or . . .
Show them a picture of Natalie Portman and gauge their reaction.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
It depends. Do they use Vi or *shudder*Emacs?
#include "sig.h"
Geekiness knows no cultural bounds...
Goo goo g'joob.
Perhaps this tendency is what causes geeks to be more or less similar in that we tend to care more about our field(s) of choice than things like government propaganda. Geeks tend not to be racist because hate takes time and effort that could be better applied to developing a better understanding of the universe. Besides, if you give in to stupid petty hatreds, you might miss something that some member of one of those social groups has to say about computers, or astronomy, or what have you.
One thing that comes back to me time and time again is that people all over the world have the same potential. One thing that has led me to that conclusion is geekdom. Racism or most other -isms would just get in the way.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
There is no comparison. Here in America we play Dungeons and Dragons. Over in the Middle East its Dunes and Djinis. Nope, nothing in common.
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
Why wouldn't they be "just like us"?
In Saudi Arabia the Linux zealot will blow himself up when his company goes with a Microsoft solution.
think it would be great if we all actually *did* get along just once. If geeks can help that, so much the better!
C|N>K
Save for the fact that they treat women like lesser beings that have next to no rights...
To be honest, I found the article on the takeup of Linux more interesting than whether or not geeks in another country are just like us. The fact that Linux is being used in the space infrastructure of Saudi Arabia will no doubt help to accelerate its adoption in poorer countries such as the Indian south subcontinent and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. I was also impressed by the sheer standard of Linux knowledge displayed by the Saudi computer expert considering that over there in the country they estimate its market share to be only 4%. (Note that that's greater than in the UK or the US, though.)
Ron dies in chapter 9 of book 7.
When you can actually post a story about perceived differences it only goes to show that you harbor some sort of mentality which seperates you from the next man/geek whatever.
The essence of this topic is that we are all human beings besides different culture, attitudes and religions. When someone sits at a keyboard the way they use it is going to be most likely the same way you use yours; key layout may be different but they are still using their fingers to do the typing.
A geek is a geek is a geek. Before computers geeks existed and after they will exist, all over the world. Maybe Slashdot should concentrate more on that fact than the differences between people who aren't at all different in any respect when it comes to "geek" attitude and really Slashdot as a forum is really starting to become nothing but a troll board for half witted comics and "geek" sideliners; none of which are funny or know what they are talking about.
Can we get back to News for Nerds, Stuff that matters.?
> Roblimo concludes that under the robes, Saudi geeks are much like geeks everywhere
Even the most rudimentary biological knowledge should have tipped you off that what's under the robes is just like what's under the jeans, kilt, or lederhosen.
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
They're just like the geeks in the USA, except that their non-existant girlfriends have fewer rights.
You are in error. No-one is screaming. Thank you for your cooperation.
I found at least a dozen anonymous surfing sites that let me view all the porn anyone could want in less than 30 minutes
Surfing pr0n in Saudi and then writing about it. I hope he gets out of the country.
in saudi arabia, geeks have the advantage of women being forced to marry them.....
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Ten differences between a Saudi geek and a Stateside geek:
1. The Saudi geeks don't have cellars.
2. They browse from right to left.
3. Stateside geeks have longer hacking sessions, not being required to stop for prayers every few hours.
4. Saudi geeks have better weather.
5. Saudi geeks drink tea, while stateside geeks drink coffee.
6. Saudi geeks get more work done, not reading Slashdot as often.
7. Stateside geeks wear sandals, Saudi geeks wear Gucci.
8. Stateside geeks rarely dress in white.
9. Saudi geeks speak at least two languages - Arab and English. Stateside geeks hardly speak at all.
10. Saudi geeks go camel-riding in the weekends. Stateside geeks don't have weekends.
My blog
Us? So what's us? I thought this is somehow international here...
Unlike us, because we have a solid middle-class with kids that can afford to be geeks. Geeks whom may surf for porn, express their political opinion and whear stuff people are wearing on MTV.
Where's that free, liberal solid middle-class in SA?
it's a brotherhood.
(someone corrects my syntax)
Last week was an excellent example to see if geeks in Saudia Arabia work similar.
:)) excellent phpMyFAQ, I am eager to (let) translate them into as many languages as possible (actually, I'm working on a Latin translation right now).
As a part time team member of the (imho
Last time we got to know that someone from the Arabic community has done this already.
Unfortunatly, my Arabic is still far too broken to be used in daily conversation or even letters. It took some time and attempts to get into contact with them. Well, it seems that this week, the phpmyfaq will be shipped as a version 1.3.9-pl2, introducing Arabic support, thanks to these great people.
If someone speaks this beatiful language, he/she might check out these forum threads:
swalif
or alqafelah
This is one of the arabic phpmyfaqs: ksavb.com. Pretty interesting style imho.
The arabic language file was first spotted on albakr
Doesn't this look like the cute Arabic sister of freshmeat.net?
First Post: "Al bust al-awwal" (I don't think there is an equivalent to the word "post", but I may be wrong).
Sorry, I don't have the unicode. Essentially: Alif -Lam Ba-Waw-Sod-Ta, Alif-Lam Alif(with hamza)-Waw(with shadda)-Lam, . The last letters for "bust" may differ (emphatic or not) depending on the original pronunciation.
Thomas Miconi
...people in glass houses don't throw stones unless your adulterous sister is inside.
It does sound twisted, but because it is in context of a country where free speech is quite restricted - the thought did pop in my head.
Could it happen that some day spamming techniques or "spammers" will be hired by people who want to exercise their free speech ? You could spam with censored information when every other means of getting your voice heard is suppressed ?
Full Disclosure - I don't know spam. I have never sent spam. I don't like spam.
To see a world in a grain of sand, and then to step back and see the beach where the sand lies
Given the oppresive attitude towards women in the strict, wahabi society of Saudi Arabia, how are women in tech treated?
Women are already an overwhelming minority in the field, and I can imagine that it is not only uncommon, but very difficult for them to make even a minimal impact in the tech world there.
100% Insightful
Now it's time for a little disclaimer: The Saudi Internet filters are easy to defeat. I found at least a dozen anonymous surfing sites that let me view all the porn anyone could want in less than 30 minutes, and I have viewed more online porn while testing the Saudi content filters than I had looked at in my entire life before this experiment.
...and I have viewed more online porn while testing the Saudi content filters...
Dang, must be tough having his job. Now...the average reader might read this and think that Roblimo's lying just for the journalistic effect here, but read his statement again...
But children, where are other places where people can look at naaaaaaaaaaghty little pictures of fornicators?
Roblimo's article highlight -perhaps inadvertently- the important and profound differences between the open source and free software communities. While these communities collaborate as a practical matter, and may need each other for their survival, one is political and principled, the other pragmatic and concerned overall with technological imperatives.
So is there a problem with this? I believe there is. You see, Microsoft, or any other software development house, can afford to optimize its development methodology or even start from scratch a la Apple, if it really became all that self-evident to them that they were technically and financially failing. So one of two things can happen:
1) if they throw enough money at the problem, they will match our technical achivements. Apple started from scratch and has produced a decent OS built on top of BSD/Darwin/Mach. So it is doable.
2) They do not match our technical achiviements. Yet at the end of the day, if the only thing we care about is having an open source operating system regardless of whether it advances the cause of freedom, then the labor of love of all these years will seem a little less meaningful to many of us. To me, it will be all seem pretty hollow.
And here's where I have a problem with Roblimo's articles. He does not question the irony that the Saudy monarchy is using free software to exercise censorship and control. Even if some of can be circumvented, it is perversed to those that believe in Free Software to see this happen. And in respecting the freedom of the license, we must allow it, but we should call oppression by its name when we come across it and he did not have the guts to do it.
He could have looked for hactivists in Saudi Arabia to see what tools they were using and how they were furthering the cause of freedom. He could have spoken to dissidents, but he didin't. It's easy to stay at a comfy hotel and write from the sidelines. It's easier to be an expectator paying lipservice to free softaware than to stand up for what free softare actually represents.
In summary, being technically superior without being morally committed to the cause of freedom is a very hollow undertaking.
Pragmatism as an ideology is not particularly pragmatic in the long term. Keep it in mind when you dismiss Free Software
Isn't geekness just a culture where people worship technology. And from my experience they are very conservative in their way.
so there is no fundamental difference in my eyes and especially no cultural gap for the saudis.
What are "we" like?
Does anyone else consider this topic to be implicitly racist? Arabs aren't fucking aliens. It reminds me of the Chris Rock joke (paraphrased):
When Collin Powel considered running for president, all the white people mentioned that "He speaks so well. He speaks so well". How the fuck is he supposed to speak? "Ima be pres-o-dent!"
geez.
LS
There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
Yes they are, only thinner.
This smacks of something out of a teen girls magazine!
Are Muslim field hockey players just like us other girls?
GAH!
"Helping to keep you two steps ahead of the Thought Police!"
How different is a Geek from any other Geek in the developed Western countries minus the external appearance, gender differences and different accent ? Oh I almost forgot to add the $$$$$ per hour !!
to work in Saudi Arabia, and after some thought, elected not to do so. I spent some time there during a military stint, and had the opportunity to interact with a number of Saudis (in the medical field, which is what I would have been doing there).
I discussed the job possibility with my wife (the money was very, very good), but her life would have taken a dramatic turn for the worse in that country. Women there (particularly foreign, christian women) do NOT have the same rights as men. Among other things, you can be detained by the religious police (different from the regular police) if you are a female out in public, not accompanied by at least one male relative. Not wearing an abayah (female headgear) in public is asking for trouble.
I should point out that lots of westerners live in walled compounds, so you don't really have to interact with the regular population if you don't really want to... but who wants to be cooped up in a walled compound for a year or two? The security we had at our military base was ridiculous (and necessary), and the compounds did not have the same level of security. Remember those car bomb attacks in Riyadh last year? They wouldn't have stood a snowball's chance at our military compound... that's the kind of security I'm talking about.
It's a very different culture, and a tough environment to walk into as a freedom-loving american... despite the excellent cash compensation. You really have to bite your tongue, be polite, keep your opinions to yourself, and be a gracious guest. Saudi justice is not american justice (in court, if it's a muslim's word against a christian's word, the christian can lose automatically) You're NOT a citizen there, and if you forget that detail, you can get yourself in serious trouble.
Good money, and I'm sure they could use a few geeks... but know what you're getting yourself into. Lots of TCNs (third country nationals) work there... Britts, French, etc, and some of them seemed to like it... but it wasn't for me.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
The whole point of repression is to make people think and do what you want. "Spammers" sending the wrong message and those tolerating it will be hunted down. Real spam will thrive, however. It's co-opted by the state which owns all media anyway.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Why doesn't this story have the Dromedary on it?
They shoud have written a bit about Perl.
Irene KHAAAAAAN!
Just like our demand for diversity in software vendors, we should expect similar diversity in
those who are interested in producing software
Shouldn't this story have the camel logo which the previous one sported? How many penguins are in Saudi Arabia?
I doubt this is true. The same love for computers and tech? Probably. But this doesn't make them "the same". I really doubt that many Saudi Geeks would have the same libertarian, open-society, atheistic outlook that many geeks here in the US seem to have.
There seems to be this big misconception that anyone who likes computers is therefore a "geek" and also therefore has a similar political/philosophical outlook.
This isn't to say that I think everyone in Saudi Arabia is some kind of crazy religious zealot, but if you grow up in that kind of environment, a lot of it would probably rub off on you.
The Saudis, at least the people in charge, are like the Taliban with gold Rolexes.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
It's not just geeks. It's not just USA and Saudi-Arabia.
Physiologically people are quite the same. Some have folds in their eyes, some have lost pigment from their skin and some have fat in different places. These are only cosmetical differences. Inside we're all the same.
If you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you'll see that the bottom layers are physiological, safety, and love. These are what every person in the world wants. They don't want to sit in the cold, they don't want to be hungry and they don't want to be afraid. (Yet some are.) And people want love and want to love.
The only substantial difference between different nations is due to culture. Some are born in conservative countries, some in liberal. Others live in religious areas, others have secular rule. Yet despite this, people still practice arts, science, whatever. You have geeks in Saudi-Arabia and deeply religious people in USA.
Whatever group of people you look, you'll find innovative people there. I recently received a revelation about this subject while reading "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond. (Excellent book, recommended). His examples showed how people have adapted to all sorts of environments and made the best use of available resources. If this does not restore your faith in mankind, nothing will.
It is true that there is a deep cultural divide between the Western world and the countries of the East, and I don't see the current political situation to lessen the situation at all. However, this is mostly due to ignorance. If you see two small children playing with toys, do you care if one of them is a Jew and another one an Arab? Do the children care? No.
If Mr. Bush had met Mr. Hussein in a neutral and safe environment before the war, would they have fought with their bare fists. Probably not. Their nations fought one another, perhaps even their ideologies. But the people themselves... you can hardly ever find a good reason to strike at your fellow man. (This teaching, it would seem, lies at the heart of every religion. Sadly it is not observed very often.)
The only way to fight this is to get rid of the prejudice and the fear. If you can, travel to different countries and try to see beneath the surface. People are the same, even in France. Try to learn about different cultures. If you can't spare the money, go to http://www.wikipedia.org/ and read about the different achievements of cultures both long gone and present. Read about their times of glory and downfall. Go to a library and read a book. (Once again I recommend "Guns, Germs and Steel".
I'd like to end this rant with a quote from Charlie Chaplin. At the end of "The Dictator," the Jewish barber (who looks like Adolf Hynkel) gives a rather touching speech about universal harmony. (Emphasis mine.)
"I'm sorry but I don't want to be an emperor. That's not my business. I don't want to rule or conquer anyone. I should like to help everyone if possible; Jew, Gentile, black men, white. We all want to help one another. Human beings are like that. We want to live by each others' happiness, not by each other's misery. We don't want to hate and despise one another.
In this world there is room for everyone. And the good earth is rich and can provide for everyone. The way of life can be free and beautiful, but we have lost the way. Greed has poisoned men's souls; has barricaded the world with hate; has goose-stepped us into misery and bloodshed. We have developed speed, but we have shut ourselves in. Machinery that gives abundance has left us in want. Our knowledge as made us cynical; our cleverness, hard and unkind. We think too much and feel too little.
More than machinery we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. The aeroplane and the radio have brought us closer together. The very nature of these things cries out for the goodness in man; cries out for universal brotherhood; for the unity of us all."
[ Antti Rasinen ]
I can see that you've got your MBA degrees, fine, but your post rather frightens me.
will make us a better, truer, purer race of people
That statement worries me--sounds a bit too nazi-ish. i enjoy diversity, i enjoy the fact that not everyone sees things from the same side of the fence.
Granted, this might be a bit OT. I was more responding to this post and the *apparent* knowledge that just because they've got more than an undergraduate degree to hang on their wall they understand that the world consists of many different people.
...me thinks that their women geeks and our women geeks are somehow a bit different.... we allow ours to work more freely (driving, education, clothing, status, etc...)
Terrible. I defiantly would not want my wife to have to ware an abayah just so that we could make "very very good money" (generally, $120,000 and up, plus signing bonus.).
You really have to bite your tongue, be polite, keep your opinions to yourself, and be a gracious guest.
Oh, the horror. Be polite? Gracious? These people are animals to demand that of foreign guests!
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Conversations with geeks in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia are similar to conversations with geeks anywhere, and most of the ones I have met so far are smart, young, single men who are addicted to the problem-solving aspect of programming.
....
I know of many geeks who are not single. For the rest, it is the society/media that glamorizes football jocks and the thugs these days over people who are in the field of science/technology
In which case, they need to wear burkas, not work, and be totally subservient to their man.
Geeks tend not to be racist because hate takes time and effort that could be better applied to developing a better understanding of the universe.
Please. Most American geeks tend not to be white-supremacists or anything like that because modern American culture abhors that kind of thinking. You won't find any kind of "racist" anywhere, unless you look very hard.
On the other hand, have you ever read slashdot? Look at all the anti-Indian hysteria in any thread about H1-B or off shoring. It's the same unthinking "us vs. them, they're taking our jobs" attitude that all racism is borne out of. Maybe they won't take the final step to true racism (i.e. anyone of Indian decent == bad), but it's just as bad (any Indian == bad job stealer).
A couple years ago, there was an article about a fiber-optic link around Africa. I was shocked when I read the comments. People were pissed, like it was some kind of a waste (even though it was being done by African countries expecting to make a profit). The racist comments in that thread were beyond the pail.
Geeks have just as much capacity for ugliness as anyone else. I'm willing to bet that "geeks" in SA have the same sort of opinions on religious diversity, women's rights, etc that most of the country does, which is pretty bad.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
You were already modded offtopic, but you are such an idiot that I am going to reply. Hitler was allied with the Arabs. So what was Hitler right about?
The very concept of "just like us" is wrongheaded . I've had this conversation before. Some people have wrongly projected the influence of TV on the US into what the internet will do to the world. They predict a growing uniformity of culture and are dead wrong. Unlike bulky and expensive broadcast technology, the internet gives everyone the abiltity to expres and preserve their cultures on an equal footing. Different is good and we should respect that.
There are many things that are subjective and cannot and should not be reconciled. Dogs are my favorite example. Differnt people have bred different animals according to their taste. I doubt seriously that people will adopt some kind of universal and average dog. The same can be said of human beauty. We are different looking because we selct each other for what we desire. Broadcast technology did much to damage people's self respect, but the proliferation of technology will restore it. People will present themselves as they see fit and it will be wonderful.
The issues that most of us hope will proliferate already exist in most of the modern religions. Love your neighbor as yourself and the universal brother hood of man are concepts that most people profess. Given time and resources, people can actually practice such concepts.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Most people are just people trying to live their lives, with the nutbag assholes being in the vast minority. Unfortunately it doesn't take many nutbag assholes to ruin the image of everyone else.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
On one side, you have their rulers, backed by the US military.
On a different side, you have the anti-US fundamentalists.
On a different side, you have pro-Democracy.
On a different side....
Opposing the rulers can get you labeled as an anti-US "terrorist" or an Islamic fundamentalist anti-US "terrorist" or just anti-government criminal.
Think about what the US's official reaction would be if these geeks decided to oppose the government.
He peeked under the robes to see if they are like Scotsman.
[leaps behind politically correct flame-proof wall]
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
There's a difference between a stereotype and a fact. If I say "teenagers are not allowed to buy alcohol in the US." it's not a stereotype, it's a fact. SA's laws are out in the open, not a secret, and they are horrible.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Better than GW Bush?
Better than you write, that's for sure.
Does anyone else consider this topic to be implicitly racist?
No, ding-a-ling. Islam's got it's own thing going on and Saudi Arabia is where it comes from. Get a clue - not everyone thinks like you do.
It's not what you don't know. It's what you don't know you don't know that's overwhelming.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Nice theory. Tell that to the "Mother" of two who blew herself up at the Erez crossing point last week. She killed 4 Israelis and left about 6000 Palistianians out of work for the near future.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
Here is a link to a post by an Iraqi woman complaining angrily about the new Shari'a law passed in Iraq (similar to what is in effect in Saudi Arabia). It is a pretty thorough, though not exhaustive, list of complaints about how women are treated under that law. Perhaps you should try to make yourself less ignorant, eh?
Wow, I almost understood that! I can't under stand arabic script at all, but the letters are similar enough to the hebrew ones in name and sound that I can figure it out.
Actually there are a number of Jewish works that have been written in Arabic but using hebrew script.
Erlang Developer and podcaster
"Roblimo concludes that under the robes,"
Um, I don't know about you guys, but I really, really don't want to go there.
people are generally the same.
If you were discussing US history here, you'd have people demanding proof that the US used to be a British colony.
You are correct about their laws.
You are correct about documented instances of their treatment of women and girls.
Whether such can be said to apply to "all" of the "geeks" over there or not is meaningless to debate. Anyone can claim to not support what the "majority" supports. But very few of them oppose the majority enough to go to jail for their beliefs or to even risk social antagonism.
As long as those "geeks" are not personally throwing the stones at the women, or posting in their websites about how it is right that women should be treated that way, anyone can believe anything they want about what those "geeks" believe.
You're presenting facts, others are presenting what they believe those "geeks" believe. Both could be correct.
I know god exists. I read it on the internet, so it must be true.
Geeks are knowledge enthusiasts. Nerds are antisocial. Some people are both - solitary geeks are nerds. But geeks usually fraternize with other geeks, so are not nerds. While many nerds know nothing, far from geekdom. Of course, they're as indistinguishable by jocks as crackers and hackers.
--
make install -not war
When people get mad at foreigners for "taking their jobs away", it's not racism - it's economics. People get just as mad when the foreigners are of the same race. It's rational competition. Even though it's wrong. People should be mad at their fellow countrymen, who run the corporations that offshore their jobs. Those suits get subsidized every which way to develop their corporations, then break the system that supports them by sending the labor dollar into an unconnected economy overseas. Geeks should see the light better than their failed predecessors in the car, steel and other uneducated industries, and rein in the corporations that are squandering their civilization for an unsustainable fast buck.
--
make install -not war
Nano is the true editor for people who want to use an editor to edit files, as opposed to using one as a religious cause
There are probably people in Norway who believe things that would disgust you as well as me
;)
Ja! Not imprisoning kids for fifteen years for cracking some silly protection system, having politicians who take home a reasonable salary and have no commercial interests and many other cultural idiosyncracies that may seem odd to a US citizen.
But seriously,intelligence depends on a willingness to think for oneself. It should be no surprise that it is these people who are least constrained by the arbitary beliefs of their culture.
Smart people have more in common with smart people wherever they are from than with the stupid people next door.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
less Geek -> Geek -> more Geek
;)
Emacs Vi Emacs
Vi is for pussies.
"I only speak the truth"
Karma: null(Mostly affected by an unassigned variable)
'nuff said
Fetch.... THE COMFY CHAIR!!!!!
Nobody expects the Saudi Inquisition!
* And remember, it's spelled N-e-t-s-c-a-p-e, but it's pronounced "Mozilla."
Do women want to be treated like princesses? Or do women want to be treated like equals?
I think women want to be treated equal. Because when a women is treated like a princess she is treated as a delicate thing that is not entirely capable of thinking herself and has someone to do everything for her...
Ok I am dissecting your words, but think hard. Is treating a women like a princess the same as an equal?
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Yes, joe is the correct answer.
I love my wordstar key bindings.
There is or can be built a machine that can simulate any physical object. -Church-Turing principle
(generally, $120,000 and up, plus signing bonus.)
Actually, it was more than that.
Perhaps this is difficult for you to understand, but Americans are extremely fond of speaking their minds... both in private, and public. In America, if I wanted to walk around in front of a catholic church with a blood-drenched picture of the pope, accusing him of horrible crimes, I could do it (not that I would, but you get the idea). In Saudi Arabia, that could get you beheaded.
I would not want to force my wife to wear something she didn't agree with, particularly something that is required by a religion we don't practice, that ostensibly puts her in a subservient position. I consider women to be my equal in virtually everything, excepting perhaps physical size and strength. I have a problem with subjecting my wife to possible humiliation, interrogation, and virtual imprisonment just to make a few bucks.
Judging by the reaction of muslims when their women are prohibited from wearing veils in schools and drivers license photographs, it's obvious you can appreciate my point. You don't like being forced, and neither do I.
As for being courteous and polite, that goes both ways... you could expect my politeness to end, with extreme prejudice, the moment some muttawa religious policeman tried to strike my wife with his stick because he could see skin above her ankles in public. All cultural differences aside, if you strike a man's wife in front of him, you'd better be prepared for the consequences, whether you're Saudi or American.
Call me an ugly american if you want, but I have a problem with asking my wife to live in an environment like that, even for a year or two... I simply have too much respect for her.
Some things are more important than money.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
First to dispel some misconceptions: The women on the roads here think it is just as crazy that their counterparts in Saudi can't drive. Alcohol is available at hotels, restaurants, and in liquor stores. There is essentially no dress code for visitors, and we see plenty of tank tops and belly-button rings. Women don't wear veils or always black, because that's not part of Islam - that's a recent part of Saudi culture. Plenty of women wear jeans and t-shirts. Birth control pills are available at subsidized rates and are encouraged. And of course there are all of the modern ammenities you'd expect: water, power, cheap gas, shopping malls, movie theaters, Starbucks and McDonalds and satellite TV, just like everywhere else.
Second, there are a number of ways in which life here compares favorably to life back home (I'm American): in day to day living, things are less oppressive here. When you get pulled over by the cops, you get immediately get out of your car and shake hands with the cop and exchange pleasantries. You would get shot doing this where I lived in LA. Speaking of getting shot, there are no guns here. Well, there are rifles of course, but murder is exceedinly rare. In fact, the last one was some Texan woman who murdered her oil-worker husband with the aid of her son. There is virtually no crime to speak of at all. No metal detectors in schools, no looking over your shoulder in dark alleys, no worries or concerns about getting carjacked or mugged or harassed in any way. I rarely lock my car, never lock my house. Punishment for crimes is indeed swift, certain and severe, but a trial by jury is guaranteed - kind of like small-town USA. Medical care? Free. For everyone, foreign or Omani.
Freedom? There sure seems to be. All citizens vote for parliament members. There are female doctors, professors, ministers - you're free to choose to do whatever you want with your life. Freedom of religion too. A couple of my jewish friends have been out to visit and loved this place. You're much more free here to go where you like, camp where you like, eat and drink and smoke where you like. Cops in Arizona (well, rangers), in the middle of nowhere, busted me for trespassing and not camping at a designated campsite. And here I was used to rolling up any old place, pitching a tent, making a fire, cooking up some pork sausages I picked up from the local supermarket, surfing and fishing wherever I chose.
Next to my folks' house in California people had a 'vote no on prop 22' sign on their front lawn (the bill that would have allowed gay marriage, which was voted down). Racial hate crimes and general tension are vastly greater in the states than here - Oman is historically a melting pot because of all its sea-faring trade. Oh, and unlike in here, I needed a license to catch a fish and a permit for wherever I wanted to go fishing back in California.
The point of all this is that things are never black and white, and these countries out here are almost nothing like what the evening news and our elected officials would have us believe.
A-Bomb
I'll be sure to mention it on my way to talk to the attack helicopter pilot who shot these missiles or maybe those, or the sharpshooter in this bullseye.
Point is, it's two sides killing the other side. Using suicide bombing is not more horrible than using high-tech weapons and vehicles. It's just harder to have those handy when you're not receiving BILLIONS every year to buy to toys to murder your adversaries.
I haven't checked the tally yet, but last time I checked, Israel had a confortable lead in kills. They'll probably make the playoffs.
Touching words. I applaud you. As you can see by some of your responses, saying nice things can be quite difficult, especially on slashdot.
I hope some people read this and it can change them for the better. If more people took you veiw point, we would live in a better world indeed.
Good to see this at +5. I'm not the only one that thinks this is worthy of reading.
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
SCO and Darl McBride are finally making the list of infidels.
It is a shame that many people spend so much of their lives being distracted that their ability to "feel" has been stunted. And most people equate feeling with reacting, which aren't the same. Reacting is a form of agression, whereas feeling is a part of the process of understanding. Unfortunately for us, the latter isn't something that can be accomplished with the push of a button or the plunking down of a credit card.
Slashdot is definitely more of a community driven by people who have a desire to understand moreso than a desire to react, but even those of us who are aware of these dynamics are still subject to the ongoing influence that wants to dictate black-and-white "solutions" to complex problems. But, as many of us soon realize, we can't apply the same logical problem-solving skills to cultural and sociological issues that we do on inanimate equipment.
It's interesting to witness how we've not only become a materialistically-disposable society, but also a psychological one as well.
You'd be amazed what goes on behind closed doors in that country, and what is tolerated at various foreign enclaves or compounds.
People are people, no matter where you go... they often have the same yearnings, and yes, that includes vices... take my word for it, the Saudis are NO exception, you just have to know where to go.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
I guess I'll be blowing some karma on this one.
The last thing I want to see is an Islamic country with a large fundamentalist population picking up expertise in missle technology.
The fight against nuclear proliferation is being lost, but at least we (Americans, I guess I should say) have some protection from the difficulties associated with targeting long range missles.
Saudi Arabia is an ally, and I don't want to run them down. But they're an ally that doesn't have a lot of ability to control its technology and funds. Pakistan is in the same category. These countries are allies, but there are people with high positions in the militaries and intelligence services of both countries that are very hostile to the US.
The standard geek way of looking at space technology is either naive or deliberately ignores some basic facts. It's military technology.
The space race with Russia was not undertaken to beam cool pictures of guys walking on the moon to the folks at home. It was because we felt we had to be better at building ICBMs and cruise missles than the Russians.
Our skill with satellites gives us intelligence and the ability to coordinate our forces on the ground, and to target our weapons much more precisely.
That's what this stuff is really for. Bush knows it, the Saudis know it, the Pakistanis know it, the Russians know it, and the EU knows it.
The HST is amazingly cool. The mars rover is incredible. They do spend some money on pure science. I'm glad they do.
But if you look at space technology purely as geeky goodness, and not as (at the very least) dual-use military technology, then you aren't looking at the space program in a realistic way.
And for the record, under Saudi law RobLimo could have been decapitated for pulling up that porn while he was on Saudi soil. The government looks the other way when Westerners do stuff like that, but it is the law.
The fact that he pulled up the porn under those circumstances, to check the filter, makes me wonder about how well he understands the people he was covering.
Fortunetly they have been kept in check by our constitution, and the fact that we live in a democrazy where the majority are not religious zelots. They cant impose their will willy-nilly as they can in Saudi Arabia.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I haven't checked the tally yet, but last time I checked, Israel had a confortable lead in kills. They'll probably make the playoffs.
"How come we play war and not peace?"
Substitute nation X and nation Y for USA and USSR.
[ Antti Rasinen ]
I do like Python. I heard there are lots of pythons in Australia. Perhaps I should move there. Besides, I don't have to change a style of my clothes there.
Less is more !
Uh, fighting in a workplace is a good way to get yourself fired, regardless of what started the fight. No one owes you a job, and the best way to stay employed is to do your job instead of getting into heated conversations about politics.
Do you realise that Saudi Arabia is one of the US's closest allies in the region? Yup, the United States is one of the strongest supporters of these "Islam fundamentalists". Presumably "freedom and democracy" doesn't mean a lot there.
Invade Saudi Arabia? Hahaha! Yeah, right. Do you realise that Saudi Arabia is a strong candidate for being the most powerful nation in the Middle East? They're no push-over, I can tell you. Not to mention their hold on the oil.
Nice theory. Tell that to the "Mother" of two who blew herself up at the Erez crossing point last week. She killed 4 Israelis and left about 6000 Palistianians out of work for the near future
You're right. We haven't met complete success yet, so we should quit.
On the same logic, let's stop trying to reduce poverty, murder, rape, slavery, cancer, AIDS. Why invade Iraq? Why not? Who cares? Obviously, we're failures anyway.
it seems slashdot won't post this unless i type something here
I'm white and I don't find Chris Rock racist. I find him incredibly funny and think he has some touchingly bitter (and intelligent) comments on society. He makes fun of what he sees as stupid. Race is often used to drive the point home or construct a joke. But race is not his target, stupidity and intollerence are (except when occasionally poking gentle fun).
The quote in the parent comment was in regards to a white person's view of Colin Powell. He picked up on a news article that included the revelation that Powell "speaks so well". He pointed out that was retarded and then he made fun of what those people would expect a black president to sound like based on their comments:
"Ima be pres-o-dent"
In the same routine, goes on to point out that such stereotypes aren't uniquely held by white people - nor that they aren't without cause. His own definition of the term "nigger" describes the black minority who are destructive, have bad priorities, refuse to grow up and who keep setting back society. He made fun of it by pointing out that not knowing anything seems to be thought of as cool by some:
"Shit.. I don't know man. What you wanna know that shit for? I don't need no learnin'. I don't need no readin'. But lemme axe you this.. lemme axe you this.. can you kick *my* ass?"
He's entirely correct about these priorities being absurd and self-destructive in many youths - both black and white. Nobody's going to help society if all they worry about is beating each other up.
I dont even want to comment on how many camel jokes i read in that list of posts, I'm not offended but to be quite frank you are playing up to a stereotype of ignorance.
Saudi geeks are much like any other geeks, religion is not a factor in being a geek, culture is not a factor in being a geek, just a love of what you do and in the case of computer geeks it's computers.
Having lived in saudi for the first 18 years of my life before going away to university I'd say that saudi geeks are the same as they are anywhere. if anythign the "restrictive" society leads more people to be introversive and there are more people that spend far too much time in front of computer screens, there are also a surprising number of women that go on to do degrees in computing, which one can assume is and extension of their geekiness.
I've seen geeks around the world and they are the same, we dont ride camels to work, or flying carpets, we don't have hot and cold running oil.
In the city I live in there are entire shopping malls dedicated to selling computer parts, every where you go you are hassled by people who are trying to sell you pirated software. computers are an enourtmous thing here, because there is nothing else to do. some people use their computers to play games, some people use them to mess around with photos, some use them to hack about with code, some just spend hours surfing the net and talking to people that they normally wouldn't be able to talk to in person due to the restrictions of the society (mainly the opposite sex, regardless of which sex they are, there is little intermingling for most people but some are more liberated.)
anyway it's nice to see that everyone is so openminded and such and that being at the frontiers of counter culture you aren't swayed by stereo types...
I lived in Saudi Arabia from birth to the age of 12. I lived in a very international community. I lived with Americans, Brits, Indians, and many fellow-Asians. So I'm sure that I have a much better idea of Saudi culture than most of you ignorantly judging a whole population of people from the acts of the radical few. Although I cannot say that Saudi culture is as good as, much less any better, than western "civilized" culture, we always have to remember that when looking at another culture, we should leave our own and look at it from an unbiased POV. From how you have gone to discriminate Arabs (directly or inderctly) in your posts and most probably in many other things from the past, it is hard to imagine no one complaining about it. You had it coming. Although the writer of the article has obviously meant no harm or disrespect, it is obvious that he has written this in a Western context. This is obviously not an unbiased account. It's almost as if an Arab visits Texas and writes an article about how "novel" it is to see grown men in cowboy outfits. We are correct in saying that this anonymous reader is somewhat out of line accusing Mr. Miller unprofessional reporting, but we shouldn't forget the context from which he did. Another thing, the American freedom that everyone keeps referring to in contrast to that of the strangle-hold of Muslim law, is not all it's cracked up to be. Freedom is not the chance to do anything we want to do. Freedom is the chance to do what we should do. Now, in this context, do we free people really exercise "freedom"?
> On the other hand, have you ever read slashdot? Look at all the anti-Indian hysteria in any thread about H1-B or off
> shoring. It's the same unthinking "us vs. them, they're taking our jobs" attitude that all racism is borne out of.
> Maybe they won't take the final step to true racism (i.e. anyone of Indian decent == bad), but it's just as bad (any
> Indian == bad job stealer).
What a hideous argument! I don't like having my job exported to India, and therefore I'm a racist? Maybe in some bizarro conservative-world, but not here.
I think that people outside of Sweden should have the same opportunities as those in Sweden. I don't think that the Swedes should be dragged down to the level of the third world.
(I used to say this about the United States, where I live. Since real wage growth for 90% of the people in the US appears to be a thing of the past (and in fact real wages for 90% of the population are going down, it's just that the top 10% are going up fast enough to make the numbers come out positive), and since the United States's numbers on things like poverty, infant mortality, literacy, health care, and public assistance are rapidly devolving toward those of some of the more advanced third world countries, I'd now prefer the US's standard of living were brought UP to that of, say, Sweden.)
So clearly I'm a racist, and hate Indians, because I don't think that I want to lose my job to someone who is willing to work for 1/5 my paycheck -- whether they are American or Indian.
Uh huh.
It is, however, a novel argument. I'd say that the American right wing should start using it, except that anything they say about racism tends to boomerang back on them (think about a certain senator's mixed-race bastard child, for example). They're probably better off just denying that it's a problem in any way.
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
Slashdot, home of the irrational insesitive comment!
This AC troll doesn't "feel" for anyone. and "yes" little boys do run around flashing his willy to other kids in gym class, etc. Believe it or not kids (anywhere) can be quite cruel to anyone who is unusual.
Believe it or not, not every thing that has a religous origin is foolhardy or nieve. Jewish dietary law is a perfect example (I am not Jewish, so please don't flame me). From what I understand one of the primary considerations is the separation of meat from vegitables. Many health departments now recomend just that to prevent the spread of ecoli (and other pathogines). Another is having inspections of slaughter houses.
Again, for emphasis Jerk, maybe religions like that are common wherever the hell you are from, but I am not aware of any. I am not a "huge fan" of organized religion, due to the hate and fear which spews from the mouths of many "religious leaders", but you "sir" are perfect proof that one doesn't need religion to be unable to carry out a intellegent discussion.In short fuck you and the horse you rode in on.
The grass is only greener, if you don't take care of your own lawn.
you got fired for stupidity.
There's a big difference for getting fired for getting in an argument and starting a fight at work, than getting imprisoned for walking outside without something covering your head.
But obviously, you are too stupid to realize that. So why not move to Saudi Arabia and see how they tolerate your criticism over there?
As long as I can see Christian fundamentalist get air time on Larry King to explain how the Jews should be helped to regain their entire scripture promised lands, and by extension cleanse it from its present occupants, I dont think you should be throwing stones.
We all have our nutters.
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
i imagine the head is a lot more sensitive than the foreskin.. and trust me, after having had friction burn/chafing there a couple of times, i always remember to wear underwear with jeans now, no matter how loose they are. don't have that problem with slacks/dress pants.. and i hate hate HATE underwear.
"Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
Very insightful jgalun.
If you go downtown in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia you'll be suprised to see more Koreans, Bangladeshis, and Indians, who've been imported for menial labor, than native Saudis. I would be more interested in knowing what sort of geek community these people had than a bunch of rich boy Saudis.
Tell it to the Israelis that have oppressed and terrorized the Palestenian people for over half a century! The point being that cherry picking an incident here or there to claim that some people are not people to support horrid actions or attitudes to said non-people is a mug's game leading to nothing but pain.
...and assume that what this gentleman (?) was talking about was a *verbal* fight and not an actual fisticuffs fight.
If so, then it is an interesting point. Should one be fired for forcefully expressing one's opinions? REALLY?
I've been in that situation before: I joined a company as a contract employee (after being out of work for over a year) a little less than a year ago. I was only there for a little under three weeks.
Just before the war in Iraq started, in response to someone's assertion that the rest of the world would back us no matter what they said now, I said that America was currently the most globally feared nation since Nazi Germany. Which, if you listen to non-US sources of news, sure sounds like it was true, is true, and is pretty much going to stay true for the forseeable future.
One of my coworkers took issue with this, telling me (rather loudly) that if I thought that America was just as bad as Nazi Germany, maybe I should move to Iraq so I could get killed when the US bombed 'those fuckers' back to the stone age, or words to that effect. I told him to stop twisting my words, perhaps more loudly than I should have but not as loudly as he did. Then I got up and left the table.
Two days later I had my walking papers. My boss mentioned an 'inability to get along with other workers' as a primary reason. He didn't come out and cite the incident in question, but my team lead did, off the record, saying, "I don't think you should be fired for this but maybe you should watch your mouth at your next job." And then some mumble about everybody having to pull together in wartime and that criticizing the government was pretty unpatriotic. Which is to say, he thought that I was an evil bastard too, he just didn't think that was a firing offense.
Did I mention that this was a publicly traded company? So, really, firing me because of my ideology is ultimately bad for the company, and therefore bad for the shareholders, who of course have no say in this sort of thing. But, in this state (an 'employment at will' state), it is mostly sort of largely legal. Good? Bad? Discuss.
Now, if the above gentleman is talking about a knock-down drag-out fisticuffs fight, then frankly, I'd be the first to show him the door. Although, to be fair, whether the other person started it, and whether both were fired or just one, does play a role in the question as well.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
So yeah, the views of the populace are interesting. So what.
Of course, since I was a contractor, firing ME in particular was wholly legal in any state, unless your particular contract stipulates otherwise.
But I meant that last bit more generally, since it's hardly just contractors that this is happening to.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
The piece they covered about that girls school that was on fire in Saudi Arabia? The local "religious police" would not let them out because they didn't have the garment that covers their faces, and many girls (as in CHILDREN) BURNED TO DEATH. No, the Saudi's are nothing like us. I'm sure SOME people in that region are just swell, but many are just sub-human.
'everybody else' should take care of the 'nutbag assholes'?
oh wait, caus they are not in the minority, the 'nutbag assholes' are in the majority.
Of course, I consider anyone who will sit quitely while chilren burn, women are beaten, a nutbag asshole.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
So, I decided to check out some human rights websites.
Provided the information is up to date, Oman has no privately owned broadcast media. Criticizing the Sultan is specifically prohbited by law. All publication is censored by a government office.
Oman has an official religion, which is Islam. While freedom to practice your religion is allowed, other religions besides Islam are barred from proselytizing.
The government must approve public events. Public gatherings require government approval. NGOs must be governmentally approved. Police do not require search warrants. The right to unionize and strike is specifically prohibited by law. The sultan can overturn parliament.
You've mentioned you don't have gun rights in Oman. I couldn't find reference to whether there is gay marriage in Oman, but I'm betting there isn't. Personally I'm not impressed that you don't need a fishing license in Oman, and I wonder if discussing gay marriage is even allowed there.
From what I've read, Oman does seem pretty progressive compared to many other arab countries, but theres all kinds of things that Americans would find completely and totally antithetical to our definition of freedom. so, I suppose in day to day living Oman might be nicer than the USA--providing you are the type of person who day to day doesn't criticise the leader of your government, or participate in any non-government approved organizations, or have a union job. How many americans don't do those things?
http://www.nationbynation.com/Oman/Human.html0 02?open&of=ENG-OMN6 .htm
http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE200012
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/nea/828
http://www.saudihr.org/en/oman.htm
Although Pentium M laptop prices are taking a nosedive (my next laptop will be either a Pentium M or an Athlon 64 - yes, I know, both ends of the spectrum, but the A64 I'm looking at is only $1550), my guess is that most laptops sold there would be Celerons, as energy use isn't as much of a concern (they've got oil), but price is. Also, did you read that Saudi geeks work with Israelis, as both Hebrew and Arabic are right-to-left languages, and development for one greatly benefits the other?
75% of the content in these articles were comparison and contrast between Saudi culture and the author's American culture; 25% of it consisted of actual information about technology in Saudi Arabia.
As a Muslim, if I were to write an article about Linux adaptation in say -- France, do you think I'm going to use 50% of the text to explain women there do not cover their heads, many drink alcohol and eat pork, and none of them pray five times daily? No, because I'm not looking to create a cultural competition; I simply don't care since, although I may have certain cultural beliefs and even prejudices, it's irrelevant to the actual topic.
Saudi Arabia is the home of Islam's two holiest places; it is the home of Islam itself. Coupled with that is Arabian culture that is much more rich than that of Arabized nations in the North (such as Egypt, Syria, Lebanon etc.) Part of 'freedom' is realizing that people may hold values that are in stark opposition to your own; ones that may even seem 'incorrect,' however NOT being a member of that culture you have no room to judge that. The fact is that the vast majority of Saudis approve of their government, and this is coming from someone who has spent most of my adult years amongst Saudis, and plan to spend the rest of my life there.
The author did not really write a journalistic piece, and that's probably not surprising since he is a self-proclaimed geek. The following links should fill the voids these articles left out. There are some very impressive open source projects going on in Saudi Arabia, including the first Arabic Linux Live-CD (based on Knoppix I believe, as well as many other projects, including Arabic localizations of Mozilla. Feel free to visit the Saudi Linux User group while you're at it. For Arabic Mac users like myself, they may find this site informative.
Funny, Spam (as all pork products) is illegal in S-A, but not Spam the e-mail? I wonder if the irony is completely lost on them considering they probably have no idea of what Hormel Spam is?
Or the rest of the Moslem world for that matter.
The educational standard is dismal in these coutries, and the youngsters in the middle east want to go to the western world to study and live.
They home countries suck and they know it.
I've recently started looking at log files of my website. I have hits from close to 100 countries so far, many small poor ones among them, but not a single hit from Saudia Arabia. Is Internet access not common there? From the article it seems that only porn is not available, and my site has a more technical nature.
The last thing I want to see is an Islamic country with a large fundamentalist population picking up expertise in missle technology.
I'm not that crazy about powerful fundamentalist groups in any country having control over sophisticated weaponry - the United States included.
If hundreds of thousands of years of evolution in geographicly isolated populations lead to clearly visable diffrence in then fenotype. Then, praytell, why are is it impossibe for geneticly inherited diffrences in behevioral paterns to exist. It doesn't imply that groups of people are inherently iferior (eg.: caucasians people are antisocial or mongolodis despotic), just that diffrent sets of traits where benefical in diffrent enviroments.
Homo sapiens learned to speak about 50 thousand years ago, so that's the upper estimate on how much time we've had to evolve into different species. That hasn't happened, though, since we still can procreate with any other race.
Cosmetic evolution is rather commonplace with both humans and animals. Since appearance is/was the main reason for selecting a mate, it has felt considerable evolutionary pressure. Naturally this leads to rather fast superficial changes.
Behavioral patterns have, however, been practically the same for millenia. People were hunter-gatherers for tens of thousands of years. Their way of life was rather universal around the world and there was no great pressure to evolve distinct behavioral patterns. Assuming agriculture and society would have changed that we still have at most only 12 millenia to evolve. (It feels slightly far fetched, though.)
It is possible that there are fundamental genetic differences that would for example cause certain people to be eg. very blood thirsty. But so far I have not seen it. Culture and upbringing seem to dominate that field quite completely. The more I meet people from other countries and continents, the more I believe that there are no built-in differences. The more I hear stories of joke-telling Tanzanians from my friends, the more convinced I become.
I repeat my previous suggestions: Get to know those people. Read books. Look beneath the surface. For example, in his Annals Tacitus quite well shows how the Romans were very much like you and me. I especially remember a short segment about a fallen apartment building; the constructor had used substandard material to make more profit.
You are completely right. I have no genetic or medical or sosiological proof. All I have are my empirical observations and those of long gone historians, and naturally my gut-feeling. I tend to trust them, though.
[ Antti Rasinen ]
Um, Iceland?
Seriously, though, that's because it's the only place in the world that didn't have a human population until 1200 years ago, and it was too remote and barren for anyone to care about invading it once it was settled.
There are other places where the aboriginal population controls the government, Madagascar comes to mind, as do perhaps Thailand, Cambodia, and Papua New Guinea, but even those have had their own share of civil wars, and colonization.
Europe, of course, doesn't count because there was an aboriginal population that existed before the Indo-European invasion, of which the Basques are the only remnant.
Russia stills retains a large portion of its aboriginal populations, much as the Americas contain remnants of the Native American cultures, New Zealand, the Maoris, Australia, the Aborigines, etc.
The Japanese were probably a Korean tribe that overran the original Ainu occupants, the Sino-Tibetans overran a large number of Australasian groups to conquer China, the Koreans themselves probably started as a Mongol tribe that overran that overran tribes on the Korean peninsula that may have been related to the Kamchatkan tribes of far Northwestern Russia, or even tribes that were related to the Na-Dene culture of America.
Anyway, my point is that you're mostly right, but there are *some* exceptions.
If you're really interested in following up on the history of human migrations, and conquests over one another, you may want to check out both Luca Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geography of Human Genes and Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel.
The real question that some people have been trying to approach here but missed isn't whether Saudis love Linux and get excited about new video cards. It's no surprise they do. The real question, when it comes to accepting them, is how they feel about us. Are they excited that we (not me personally) love Linux? Or are we still heathen satans who should be destroyed?
If they happen to share their neighbors attitudes toward the west, I really don't care how geeky they are.
Ecce Europa - Web Design for Business
Many countries place quotas on immigrants from various other countries. So, whether Greeks who emigratate to Saudi Arabia can get to a level that they can form a robust community... oh, wait. GEEKS.
Signatures are a waste of bandwi (buffering...)
I tried some of the Lebanese stuff once. It'll definitely put some hair on your ass!
The table service was nice, but in general, I didn't care for the coffee. The spices they put in it wasn't to my taste, but you definitely knew you were drinking coffee. It's worth trying, if only for exploration's sake.
Miscellaneous links:
A Recipe
How everyone does it
Hey, If we're gonna be wired, we might as well do it right
Why do I have this? I don't smoke.
Yes, people are the same, but culture is what differentiates them.
That said, my first hand observations show that the culture of a society directly influences the psychology of a people. And the psychology of a people, for lack of a better term, is who they "are".
Here's a really long in-depth article by a man who spent some time in the kingdom mentoring some newspaper reporters. Some very interesting views.
Woops, I'm moderated a "troll" for speaking my mind. Welcome to geek-ville, where automated karma will be used to keep everyone in line. Remind you of any bad science fiction films?
In summary, being technically superior without being morally committed to the cause of freedom is a very hollow undertaking.
WHAT THE FUCK KIND OF IDIOT WOULD POST THE KIND OF INFO YOU ARE ASKING FOR FROM INSIDE SAUDI ARABIA?
The kind of dickhead that gets all his contacts busted and gives the secret police a field day. Even if he doesn't reveal names in the article, do you think that the Saudi Arabian secret police would hesitate to take him into a back room to beat the info out of him? Ever heard of what Bruce Schneier calls "rubber hose cryptography"?
Would YOU happen to be that kind of dickhead?
The whole point behind hacktivism and anonymous networks is to make sure an oppressive government does NOT find out who and where you are, not to make the kind of STAND FOR PRINCIPLES that gets you and all your friends face time with the secret police. Of course, given current political trends, perhaps Americans will get to make choices like this for real.
Perhaps when Roblimo returns, he'll tell us the kind of info you're asking for. I regard his judgement as trustworthy as what, whom, when, and from where to tell this. Yours is another matter.
Tech Public Policy stuff
Here's an article from a newspaper editor who went to Saudi Arabia to train reporters for a year:
...A middle-aged Saudi told me, "I am worried about the next generation. They don't see any real women at all. You don't see each other's wives, daughters, sisters. Everything is masculine. And yet they are bombarded by images. They can easily see porn. They live in the imagination of sex all the time. We don't grow naturally, to be loved, not to be loved--we don't undergo these changes. Two-thirds of the marriages here are basically loveless. Many men cheat--there's a lot going on underground." ...The absence of socialization between men and women struck me as a potent factor in terrorist fantasies. The hijackers who killed themselves on September 11th were propelled in part by the notion of being rewarded in the afterlife with the company of virgins. Such abstractions don't seem quite so strange in a country whe
http://www.lawrencewright.com/art-saudi.html
He has a number of surprising insights into the repressive and mysogynistic Saudi society. If not all Saudi's are sexist, then a very large majority of them. And contrary to expectations, the younger generation are even worse because they grew-up in an even worse society than their parents.
Here's an excerpt:
The self-effacement of an entire sex, and, in consequence, of sexuality itself, was the most unnerving feature of Saudi life. I could go through an entire day without seeing any women, except perhaps some beggars sitting on the curb outside a prince's house. Almost all public space, from the outdoor terrace at the Italian restaurant to the sidewalk tables at Starbucks, belonged to men. The restaurants had separate entrances for "families" and "bachelors," and I could hear women scurrying past, hidden by screens, as they went upstairs or to a rear room. The only places I was sure to see women were at the mall and the grocery store, and even there they seemed spookily out of place. Many of them wore black gloves, and their faces were covered entirely--not even a pair of plummy, heavy-lidded Arabian eyes apparent. Sometimes I couldn't tell what direction they were facing. It felt to me as if the women had died, and only their shades remained...
Abdullah al-Shehri, a professor of linguistics at King Abdul Aziz University, explained during a long conversation in a Starbucks. "There is a religious term, khalwah, which means a man and a woman who are unrelated and are behind a closed door," Abdullah said. "There is another term, ikhtilat. This is an invented term. It's heard only in Saudi Arabia, and is never mentioned in any religious text. It means 'mixing of more than two men and women.' There is a confusion between these two terms in the Saudi mind. The Prophet said whenever a man and a woman are in khalwah Satan will join them. But ikhtilat is part of the Saudi tribal culture. Before I was born, in the thirties and forties men and women used to celebrate weddings together. Now bride and groom have separate wedding celebrations."
"Traditions say that eating alone with your female relatives is shameful," Raid Qusti, a journalist, wrote earlier this year in a daring column for the Arab News. "Where in our religion does it say that sitting with your own family is forbidden?" Qusti complained that many Saudi men thought it was taboo to utter a woman's name in public. "Ask any Saudi male in the street what the names of his wife or daughters are, and you will either have embarrassed him or insulted him. Islamic? Not in any way." There are some parts of the country where a woman never unveils--her husband and children see her face only when she dies. "Women will always be the core issue that will hinder any social progress in Saudi Arabia," Qusti wrote. "We limit their roles in public, ban them from public participation in decision making, we doubt them and confine them because we think they are the source of all seduction and evil in the world. And then we say proudly: 'We are Muslims.'"
Your girlfriend is brilliant.
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Long-term effects of Bush deficits
There is nothing in Islam that says women can't use computers. Islam is quite the opposite, women are strongly encouraged to read.
Muslims shouldn't say Merry Christmas to Christians, becaue Muslims don't celebrate Christmas. It's the equivalent for the rest, they shouldn't wish Hindus happy Diwali day either.
Funny, people on /. said that Iraq had no ties to 9/11 or Al Qaeda. They kept pointing how the Saudi Arabian royalty seemed involved.
It would generate a different response if the US went in to Saudi Arabia. Bad idea to invade, good idea to work nonviolently for change.
Our skin is usually darker and our hair is usually black.
Seriously now, what is there to be different from? I'm an arabian who has been running linux since 1997, own a collection of star trek and star wars DVDs, build my own computer, read slashdot regulary, own a Palm T|T, hate MS, love open source, fascinated by space and science research, got my BS degree from a respectible american school, and on top of that does not agree with what happened in Sep/11.
Why is being an arabian muslim makes me any different than any geek anywhere else in the world?
::sipping freshly brewed coffee::
Black holes are where the Matrix raised SIGFPE
Actually, despite all the Rush Limbaugh bashing that goes on - I think the guy has generally done a remarkably good job of backing up his commentary and statements/conclusions with relevant sound bytes and news clips!
One of the reason people first got hooked on his TV show was the ability he then had to actually air video clips of people in politics making statements (and the facial expressions they had while doing so).
Is he right ALL the time? Obviously not! Who is? But regarding your specific statement about styrofoam being biodegradable - at best, I'd say the jury's still out on that. I believe it was just a year ago or so, I read an article in Popular Science talking about concerns an art museum had about plastic furniture in their collection from the 1950's and 60's. Some of it was actually breaking down at the molecular level and basically turning into a puddle of goo! This was a real shocker, as it was previously assumed plastic would pretty much last forever. Some chemists started analyzing it and they're now starting to believe plastic may have a certain "shelf life" before it begins breaking down on its own.
So Robin thinks it's really not so different for Saudi Linux geeks as Western ones? I'm glad he had such a nice time with everyone, it's probably because he's a man. I'll bet *I* wouldn't have been allowed access to the Saudi nerds; it's probably against the law and would have garnered us all a public flogging.
Yeah, we have our religious zealots and so do the Saudis, but there's one really BIG difference. *Our* religious zealots blow up abortion clinics and shoot doctors one by one; *their* religious zealots hijack planes and fly them into buildings. There's not a huge amount of difference between the two flavors of zealotry, but *our* zealots live in a country where they're not allowed to get away with nearly as much violence. Saudi society has embraced Wahabbism, the particularly violent flavor of Islam, and they make Operation Rescue look like a bunch of hippie pacifists.
Firsts, Thanks for reminding me about Heavens Gate, I had a great laugh at the time and it is perfectly OK. If that is what they want to do, why would I care. The Jonestown is a little sad since innocent children was involved. As for the misguided adults I couldn't care less. The Sweatshop fire is real sad.
Now to the Not a Gene assertion. That is not so clear cut. People with frontal lobe epilepsy which is most likely hereditary changes personality and starts to express a deep religiosity even if none initially. It gets more and more intense as the disease progresses.
It is one of the key symptoms. Even for people that only get seizures very rarely.
I will refrain from commenting on what this mean in a moral sense, but a blanket statement like Not in a gene is probably incorrect.
Help fight continental drift.
Fine post. Glad I was reading slashdot tonight.
Pardonne
Amen, brother.
Oops, didn't mean to use an Arabic word. My bad.
Need Mercedes parts ?
It's true if you are a woman and don't wear the headgear you can be arrested in Saudi Arabia.
Their culture demands it.
Now, American culture also demands a dress code. What happens if a woman walks around topless? Golly, she's arrested.
Each culture has it's own norms. Willingly violate it and you're in trouble, whether you're in Saudi or the United States. Why is this so difficult to understand?
Need Mercedes parts ?
I've lived in the Middle East for six years. I was born and taught to not believe in any form of racism. Today, I have a significant loathing of the Middle East and Arabs in particular. This wasn't 'rubbed off' on me by other Americans but from simple observation of the things they did.
I watched our US embassy burn when attached by hundreds of protesters screaming "Death to America!" (Murt al-Amrika), had to drive my car over the letters "USA" painted in the streets (they feel its a slam to drive over the flag or name of a country), watched them spraypaint my children's school with the same messages and attack westerners in the streets that 'looked' American.
They are so pinned down by their dictators that any excuse to blow off steam turns into a lynching party.
As far as geeks are concerned, it was the UK that brought in the brains to establish the internet there-- not arabs. When it was fully up and running, they fired the foreigners and sent them back. Our internet service was shit for months until they brought back some europeans to unscrew it.
You can't have a true geek who is more concerned with the death of Israel (the only middle eastern country that actually produces anything other than oil) and opressing women.
it all depends on where you are in the United States.
For instance, in the state of Ohio, it is perfectly legal for a woman to walk around in public topless... been that way for a few years. That comes straight from that state's supreme court.
It came as a result of some granola-type college students who were sunbathing topless and were arrested. They fought it all the way to the state supreme court, and argued (successfully) that if a man has the right to walk around shirtless in public, so does a woman.
The students in question were from this university and were sunbathing at this state park in southwestern Ohio. I have often wondered how the in-chamber discussion went amongst the predominately male supreme court when they were considering that decision...
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
Maybe you should be blaming your legislators that gave the companies tax breaks without getting the quid pro quo in writing? The only thing the companies are obliged to do is make profit for their shareholders (most of whom are still American), and the people who proposed and implemented the tax breaks knew that.
And why do you guys seem to think that these companies would have such a hard time if their HQ was offshore? I don't see Americans having any qualms about buying foreign cars, electronics, food, and energy -- why would software or IT services be any different?
Culture is not race, culture is a real difference, it's acceptable to criticise culture -- otherwise we should let the Arabs do whatever they want with their women. Cultural differences certainly lead to civil engineering differences, why can't they also effect code?
Language is not race, language is a real difference, it's acceptable to criticise pronounciation -- otherwise we should let school kids speak English however they want. Pronounciation may not be as big a language barrier as syntax or semantics, but it's still some kind of barrier.
I, for one, apologize for the arrogance displayed by those in this country. They read far too little, assume far too much, and believe what they're told far too often. Comes with being somewhat isolated geographically I guess.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
OK, then they should sell only to Americans as well.
You want it that way then shut down the outside world and let us know when you want back from the dark ages.
There are examples of that, like China that just when it was in the brink of becoming the most powerful sea faring country in world retracted to their borders and became a feudalist society.
To a great extent, China is still trying to recover from such monumental historical short-sightedness.
It would be ironic that China would re-claim a place in history that was almost theirs after the US commiting exactly the same mistake.
But alas, that will not happen, but that only means people like you can't have it both ways.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Tax more the US companies that take work off-shore? Then they may grant you your wise wish and move elsewhere, thus losing any jobs left and stopping contributing any revenue to the US tax chest.
In any case many of those companies are multinationals, they choose the US as their head quarters, but there is no rule anywhere that they shoudl do do, there are countless companies based elsewhere that ar successful.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
.... don't deserve the adjective of human.
Filth suits you perfectly and in spite of that I don't wish you are ever exterminated in any lunatic war of civilizations.
You are condemned to your own hate, that is punishment enough.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
... just for your information exists also in Malaysia, which is not even fully Islamic (big percenteage of the population of Chinese and Indian origin).
I had the indignity to be requested my passport in restaurants in ocassions during Rammadan to ensure I was not a local violating the law of the land.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I lived several years in a mainly muslim country, my Muslim friends did not drink alcohol, I did. We had fun all the same.
The sad thing is how people in Western societies are so conditioned to believe that without alcohol you can't have fun.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
The barbarities and savagery that occurs in many Muslims countries, but specially in Saudia Arabia do not leave space to the relativism you are trying to play here. Where the holly prophet Muhhamed, peace uppon him, calls for understanding and compassion, the clerics in Saudia Arabai and many other places institue a regime of fanatical terror in which a text like the one I write will land you in jail or worst.
I may not be part of the Muslim culture, but the way people are executed, women are treated (including virutal abuse of uncountable young girls sold in marriage as what amounts of virtual slavery) and in general people's freedoms are disrespected (you claim Saudi Arabs support their goverment, well, they are wise, because the people that do otherwise are on exile or dead) does not leave any space to cultural relativism in which we, non Muslims, are missing the point somehow.
Great to know there are people in Saudi Arabia that at least in regards to technology are at the cutting edge, but frankly that is small fry compared with the almost unsurmountable backwardeness of Saudia Arabia and many other Muslim countries.
This backwardness is refelcted in the economy, the arts, culture and political influence. GPB in most muslim countries has been falling for the last decades, educaton is in shambles (save a few places like Malaysia and perhaps Indonesia, unsuprisingly some of the less fanatical Muslim countries), bar a few writers like Nahib Mafuzz or cinematographers (often banned in their own counries of origin) the Muslim world offers little today to the continuum of world culture, this as a result of strict censorship that is common place all around the Muslim world (perhaps the only Muslim country with free press is Turkey, and that is big if).
I am sorry for the Muslim world, it could have so much to teach us and offer us, there are few things so peaceful as the call to prayer when the sun rises or sets, the friendship and human warmth is always forthcomming, unfortunatley they live in a different planet of which I don't want any part and that will self destruct unless Muslims wake up and listen to the message of their prophets.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Jeddah is a little more inviting than Ridyah. Our driver was never stopped at a checkpoint, unless we were entering the job site or the compound. Restraunts and shops all closed for prayer, which meant more planning for meals than normal. Westerners were free to smoke, eat, and drink (no alcohol, of course) during daylight in Ramadan, as long as it was done within the compound walls or behind a closed, locked door. The restrictions only bothered me when I was hungry (invariably just as prayer was starting), but some of my coworkers had a hard time not wearing shorts in public (the rumor is that only prostitutes wear shorts).
Yes, there were prostitutes, alcohol, gambling, etc. etc., but it was all behind closed doors. The local "alcohol mafia" appears to be run by the Brits, and some people make millions. Others ferment their own in bathtubs. All illegal, but in Jeddah they have stopped random raids for the time. Just don't go driving with any in the trunk...
We only had a dial-up connection to the internet - management never came through on the promised DSL line. I knew that Gentoo Linux required a network connection, but I never realized how much it absolutely requires broadband until it took 3 days to download the Open Office source code. BTW, it's not worth compiling Open Office from source, especially when you are averaging a MB an hour.
Bookstores don't generally sell books - just office supplies. The one "real" bookstore I found sold some computer books, but mostly for web design (Flash, etc.). There was one Linux book. It seems to me that the cache servers / firewalls make it especially hard for Linux users - hard to download ISOs, and hard to browse forums and usenet postings. I can see where LUGs would be much more important - one guy can get the DSL line to get the ISOs, and the rest can help each other translate documentation and debug problems. It seems piracy is widespread as well, with many of the compilation CDs and DVDs that come out of Asia. That seems to hurt Linux as well - if you can get Windows XP for $15, why mess around with Linux?
You need a visa to visit Saudia Arabia, and the visas are given for work (with a company sponsering you), for pilgramage (I think you still need a citizen to sponsor), or for travel (but only for tour groups in buses). If you have a chance to go, it's worth the experience.
Don't know why the parent posted as AC, but I fully agree with him.
You can't impose a "superior" culture on another without provoking hatred and rejection of that very culture - creating the opposite effect of what you intended.
It is never done for hygine, but mearly to elimate sexual pleasure.
Actually, the reasons for male circumcision are very similar. Did you know that the typical American circumcision removes up to 80% of the skin from the penis, containing unnumerable nerve endings? That the glans is a mucus membrane (like the tongue), and constant exposure results in drying and eventual loss of sensation? I won't go on, it's not my intent to make you feel guilty. But you should know the truth.
Please read up at NOCIRC and NORM and learn what the American medical profession wants to keep quiet.
I did have an interesting discussion with a Pakistani who works with me after he point-blank asked me what religion I was. I explained to him that such a question was considered improper in the West, at least based on my 30 years in the workplace.
On the other hand, I am about ready to found "Atheists in support of the Ayatollah Bush" as a signal of my mixed feelings about having a Prez who is doing the right things for the wrong reasons (at least in the arena of military and defense, which is where 20 years of my expertise lies as I once held the job title, "Chief Scientist, Strategic Air Command, Intelligence (HQ SAC/INTC)", which let me play in lots of interesting analyses).
Back to the point at hand, we may have some zealots, but many are like the Amish, quiet, polite and not particularly dangerous.
will make us a better, truer, purer race of people
That statement worries me--sounds a bit too nazi-ish. i enjoy diversity, i enjoy the fact that not everyone sees things from the same side of the fence.
Uhh... yeah. I can't believe you left out the fact that he referred to "most Saudis as dirty Sand Niggers" (though he used the abbrv "SN" - not something, IMO, that lessens the blow.
All this coming from a dirty faggot who cares about nothing but carnal pleasure.
Please note: that last statement was made entirely toungue-in-cheek - here's a guy who claims to be bisexual - a group that is frequently discriminated against - and claims to be educated, yet he labels most of an entire country with a racial slur. Scha-weet.
Oh, yeah, a note on bi/hetro/homo: (my view only, of course) - I have nothing against either hetro or homsexuals - I think they are both driven by incontrollable brain chemistry that causes a physical attraction to certain things. There is nothing anybody can do about what sex they are attracted to, and I hence embrace them all as my brethren. Bisexuals are a WHOLE other cookie. I view them as simply people of loose character, who lust relentlessly after the pleasures of the flesh, and will take whatever they can get - any hole, any time, any where - man, woman, child, or beast. Yeah that's right. I said it. They're chicken-fuckers and pedophiles. Probably fuck their own mothers and fathers. They'd probably say, "I see beauty everywhere, in all of god's creatures", and I say, "Yeah. As long as you can fuck it or it can fuck you."
Just goes to show that, as that Matt Damon guy's character in "Good Bill Hunting" said, just because yer stupid enough to not know what books to read and gullible enough to pay somebody $40K a year to tell you which ones doesn't make you educated.