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Do You Make $60/hr for Programming?
azzkicker asks: "I was reading some AP articles on offshoring. It talks about the struggles of out-of-work programmers and the shifting of jobs overseas [in the US]. Part way through one article it says: 'The average programmer commands $60 an hour in the United States, six times the rate in India.' I don't disagree with the Indian rate (USD $80/day, $400/week, $20,800/year gross), but what is with the US rate (USD $480/day, $2400/week, $124,000/year gross)? I know that programmers are billed out at high rates, but most of my programmer friends in Midwest, USA (years of experience and CS degrees) don't even see $50K/year. What is the actual rate most programmers see? Do you see $60/hr? Is the US rate misleading corporations into outsourcing?" Does offshoring really save corporations that much money?
I make $54k a year, plus full benefits (All medical expenses paid for my family, vision, dental, vacation, and company paid pension). This is a good job, but a far cry from $60/hour.
until I got laid off 40 days ago. Still, add in the insurance, vacation, etc and I can easily see $60/hour.
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My company bills me out at ~$160/hr.
Of course, I only see ~1/5 of that as my hourly wage, they get the rest of it for overhead/insurance/profit/etc.
I have a BSME. I might get a raise to $15. What a great economy.
One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
general rule of thumb up to $100k a year or so, double the salary and that's what the employee costs the company. Payroll tax, benefits, unemployment insurance, workmans comp, increased hr resources, etc... $60/hr sounds about right.
I know the best programmer I have ever had the chance to work with made 112k a year. Keep in mind these are "New York City" rates, where he was paying 2200 a month in rent. 1600 a year for car insurance, and 10.50 for a mixed drink at your downtown bar. Lets not get into the fact that he was working 75+ hours a week on average either.
Down here in Florida senior programmers are lucky to see 1/2 that at best.
Big numbers make for big headlines. No one ever puts 2 and 2 together.
My friend, could program a circle around 10 of the best offshore programmers you could throw at him. The problem is, they(management) only sees dollar signs, not quality, not the fact you are here on the spot, and not the kind of job your doing....so what if 6 programmers offshore can't do his job, they like the way the numbers work and are not bright enough to understand that they are actually hurting the company.
Again, what do I know. I am just your average government worker now, but I can zap you from space!
---typed for speed, did not check spelling or grammer. In fact I did not even read over it.
Neck_of_the_Woods
#/usr/local/surf/glassy/overhead
Larger companies and government agencies pay IBM or Accenture or whomever $120+/hr for even basic IT staffers.
The programmers may be making $20-45/hr, depending on the city, but the customer still pays $$$.
The Indians bill low and pay their people low.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Some people are naturally going to say that this a low number because their employer bills them out at such-and-such price. Others are going to say that this is high because they sure as hell don't make six figures as a programmer. In college as a grad student I would make anywhere from $50-$100 an hour, but consulting work is always billed at a higher rate than a salaried worker.
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I bet bill rate. If you can estimate an employee's pay at 2,000hrs * hourly = 120k of the author's estimate, you can deduct the first 25% for the cost of health insurance. There's $120k.
I know staffing agencies look to pay people 60% of their wage, estimate 20% for benefits and the meager 40% left to pay their sales staff, office staff, directors, and take a profit.
I would say that is the average bill rate of people that work for my staffing agency and have college degrees. I know of some that make 120k+ with and without degrees. But, they are usually project managers, not coders.
Don't forget that it costs a significant amount of money to seek, hire, train, and provide benefits (medical!) for people. Usually a $60 or $80/hr rate is a loaded rate that covers the full cost of an employee. In some cases this also pays for offsite space, utilities, equipement.
It can also reflect the quality of talent--a well run consultancy may also try to identify and retain people with higher levels talent so you'll get higher bang for your buck as opposed to a warm bodies in chairs type permatemp agency.
- Barrie
I believe that $60/hr is including the cost of benefits, 401k matching, Soc. Sec., etc. Not just the salary.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge"
- Charles Darwin
Does anyone out there have URLs of really good tech salary data? That focuses on actual programming? (don't just say "search google ...")
I make $54k a year, plus full benefits (All medical expenses paid for my family, vision, dental, vacation, and company paid pension). This is a good job, but a far cry from $60/hour.
Pretty amazing. I work in tech support, which is a MUCH lower competency line of work than programming and I make just a bit over $60 a year, $72 with full dental/medical. Of course that is in New York City, where $60k a year is *NOT* considered a wad of cash!
My girlfriend makes $150k a year as corporate trainer, and (since she owns her own company) only works on average 2-3 days per week. And she has friends in her line of work who actually have the temerity to ask her "How can you work for so little income?". So, naturally, she thinks my paycheck is peanuts. I actually had a therapist tell me one time "Of course you have trouble making ends meet! You hardly make any money!" (naturally, I fired her not long after that conversation!)
I program for enjoyment and because I like to learn. But even though it seems like a far more intellectually stimulating line of work, I don't think I'll ever persue it as a career. ESPECIALLY if it would mean having to take a cut in salary!
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
A: No. Next question.
Seriously, though, I don't make anywhere near $60/hour (and never have). Of course, I've only been out of school three years and I currently work for the government. But my last job with a startup didn't pay much more than my current one.
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Consider the amount of hardware, office space, insurance, matching social security, etc and you start to see the programmer's cost rise.
You mean I can get paid to program?!
Unknown host pong.
When I taught IT I was regularly billed out at $300 an hour, but only made $20 dollars an hour. As a consultant these days (when I can find contracts) I get billed out between $75 - $150 an hour, making usually 1/3 to 1/4th of that. None of that includes taxes such as self employment tax. Overall I typically net 45-55% of my pay. Maybe I should move to India ... While it is possible to apply for a visa I have never found an IT professional who was successful in getting one, though I know many who have tried.
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im pretty damn sure these are billing rates. My company did some outsourcing and I happened to see their rates, and they were about $15/hr. I as an intern, at this same company was billed out for about $50/hr (note: at .com boom height). When I later joined on as a full timer, my position was billed around $75/hr (I personally was on a contract project so hours didnt really apply). I read somewhere this week that the average programmer in india makes about $8/hr. The company I am at now, which pays close to top dollar for talent, in the most expensive place to live on the east coast, has an average salary of ~100k . So no, this is not unreasonable. And yeah, my "multiples" were quite high. $12/hr (no benefits as an intern and ~40 as a full timer.
Of course, the real comparison should be "in-house" vs. offshoring, which is the most common model. Offshore companies are not really competing directly w/ big american firms, and are right now content w/ being hired by other big firms.
But also, you have to realize that your company pays all kinds of taxes on you also. Your "costs" dont end with your salary. And not with your benefits either. People pay you (payroll department), those people cost money. You most likely have some type of secretarial access, direct or not, and they cost money too. Computers, email accounts, vpn access, cubicles, these are all costs associated with you. They add up. Outsourced and offshored people are a much more nicely packaged cost. But adding up these costs could very easily bring these figures to the 120k/year cost.
I was earning less than $400 a month back in 2001...
You people should start outsourcing to Portugal. Looks like we're even cheaper than the Indians!
I'm a freelance Unix consultant, I used to consider my rates low, not any more though.
I wouldn't have a problem charging $60/hr for certain jobs depending on how quickly it needs to get done.
I've cleaned up after many an offshore programmer (but some are pretty damn good).
I've been going through resumes this week and all the programmers are billing at $66-$70/hour. The rule of thumb is you have to pay $7/hour or 10% (whichever is more) to your contracting company (MDI, Matrix, etc) for paperwork and such.
So, yes, contract programmers are making that much. Permanent employees are not.
- Vincit qui patitur.
Back when I did the consulting thing, we billed out at $100-$125/hour easily. Our most junior programmer would have been $75/hour, and I don't think we even went that low... and this was 3+ years ago, in a small firm, working mostly word-of-mouth contracts (there were 10 of us total).
:-). But I do think that our consultants were well worth the money -- we typically got things done in less overall time and with much higher quality and reusability than the in-house work I saw from our clients who had both in-house and consultant-developed applications. So I hardly think we were scamming them.
:-)
Now, how much of that did *I* see? A lot less than $100 an hour, that's for sure
This same firm out-sourced their Y2K work to India at around that same time. Last I checked, the work was not done on time, and was not of a high quality.
It's a strange world -- let's keep it that way
I make about US$40/hr direct pay - add vacation time, 401K contributions, medical, and I "see" about US$60/hr. Then I wave bye-bye to about $20/hr at least as Uncle Sugar takes his cut.
Given that I live in the relatively cheap Midwest rather than on the coasts, I do pretty well.
However - I have been doing this for over 16 years. I've been with my current company 13 years. I am one of the lead software architects here. I do everything from signal processing to OS design to systems to UI to test, and I do it damn well.
Sure, if you are fresh out of school, fuggetaboutit. Pay your dues, know your stuff, and be somebody your company can count upon to get the job done and you MAY be able to rise to my level.
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When I had a full time job I made 28k a year. Now that I have some part time work, I get around 8 bucks an hour. So I call bullshit on this article.
Is the move off-shore to decrease development spending? Where will the "money that is saved" go? Will this saved money offset the cost of some of the outrageuosly priced software packages out there? Or will it go to the 'powers that be'? Has anyone been involved in a situation like this?
Right now I don't have a job so no I don't get $60 an hour. When I did it was closer to $15. If I got a job it would be entry level and much less than $60. The few programmers, relatively, might get that much but that many out of jobs don't.
Why don't you guys have friends or journals?
This may seem like offtopic but this article is a very interesting read. Please read the link to NY Times article that's in the first para as well. Well here's the article (read it in full if you will)
Who really benefits from outsourcing
Another thing which most of us miss out when looking at cheaper cost of programmers in foreign lands is the currency exchange rate. Those programmers are actually very very expensive compared to other labor (look at their national per capita income) in their locale. It is their currency exchange rate that makes them look cheap when we look in dollar terms. Now if you were to become president and say hey, 1 US dollar is equal to 1 Indian rupee from now on, there will be zero outsourcing. Okay, the last sentence was hypothetical but China does have artificially pegged currency exchange rate...
Yeah, that's what I bill for regular programming, on contract, 1099. Assuming 2000 hr/year that $120K gross; figure that you pay about 30 percent of that for benefits and 8 percent for the employer's share of FICA, and we get something like $72K. Makes sense.
When I was an IT consultant, my rate was $65 an hour. But that was 2 years ago..... Now I don't do consulting anymore. Got sick of travel....
and I don't make no 60 dollars an hour. I don't even make 50K...I'm assuming that the article meant 60 dollars on paper, not the total cost, or they would have been more specific.
Interestingly, we have a whole bunch of contractors, they are all foreign nationals and they are making way more than I do. If they want cheap labor, maybe my company should hire more people in house and try to exercise some restraint in taking on new projects we aren't staffed for.
I think cost is not the whole issue really, as much as it is to exercise greater control over their staffing. if you compare overpriced contracting to offshore outsourcing, outsourcing probably does come up cheaper every time. it probably wouldn't be so big if companies didn't rely on contract workers, but I suspect that contracting is here to stay. If I'm right, I'm a little annoyed that they are lumping comtract labor costs with my lower wages as an excuse to outsource more jobs overseas. why don't they fire the contractors?
This is all postulation.
Do you run your own business or are you just guessing.
I pay 100% benefits for my employees and SS matching, and workman's comp (not to mention my companies liability, etc insurance). It doesn't run anywhere near 50%. It is around 10% per employee.
When I'm on contract, I'll take 75-85/hr, but
for a long-term gig on W-2, I settle for
45-60. I live in rural Minnesota and I've
never sat in a cubicle. Cubicles are fatal
to your AGI.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
Multiply the hourly rate by 1000 and you'll have ~your salary. $60 an hour would only equate to around $60,000 per year. Remember, you only run between 45-60% utilization.
This as one of those buzzword-compliant web developers for a medium-size company. At the same time, the company was going to other firms for the design work and some applications because they didn't believe in their own employees (whom had never been given an opportunity to prove themselves)and got (IMO) crappy products, at $120-$200 per hour.
A number of people have pointed to the cost of non-salary benefits like health insurance. For comparison, here is what Cognizant, an off-shore IT outsourcing company lists as benefits packages for American and Indian employees. There is a notable difference.
Here's what GE Global Research offers in benefit packages to American , Indian and Chinese employees. Again, you can see that there are significant savings in benefit costs.
Three Squirrels
Lead developer, DBA, network admin, system analyst, "figure it out guy": $75k
2nd senior programmer: $47k
3rd senior programmer: $60k
4th senior programmer: $50k
Senior Network Admin: $55k
2nd Junior Admin: $45k
3rd Junior Admin: $42k
4th Junior Admin: $38k
Contrast:
Common Data Entry: $28k
Data Verifier: $35k
Office Manager: $75k
Regional Manager: $100k
Executive: $115k to $140k (they GET bonuses, sometimes in the way of $250k a quarter)
That's gross salary, not net. We have a decent 401k that averages to a 7% match. Health benefits blow and for a wife and kid it'll cost you nearly $7,000.00 a year, not to mention the $3,000.00 deductible if you actually USE it. Bonuses were supposed to be "regular" and "forthcoming" but that was bullshit as well. Other than that we don't have benefits and we're severely understaffed.
If you want to bitch about me posting anonymously get real. Any topic discussing salary should have every post made anonymously.
http://www.talenteconomymag.com/include/article2.
Read the article for context but here's the quick quote.
"The worst-paid jobs are Webmaster, tech writer and support engineer, whose billing rates ranged in the low $30s per hour. That's not surprising, given the increasingly simple tools available to design and maintain Websites, and the weak demand for writers and general engineering support.
The best-paid jobs were database developers and administrators. Depending on experience they could command hourly rates from $50 at entry level to $93 for upper managers, which equates to an annual salary of anywhere from $105,000 to $195,000."
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
The highest hourly rate I've had for a steady job was $55/hour. I've made much more for a short-term consulting gig, and I'm making much less now, but trading for flexibility, telecommuting, and lower stress.
That was for a W2 contract position (that means I'm an hourly employee of Company X, but as a practical matter I work for Company Y, which sends a lot of money to Company X, which sends a much smaller amount of money to me), for a pretty good C/C++/Unix geek with a Master's degree and over a decade's experience, in the relatively well-paying Baltimore/DC area. During the boom I could probably have gotten $60/hour or more if I wanted to spend a lot of time commuting from Baltimore to Northern Virginia.
As an average, though? Not unless they're talking about the cost to the employer rather than the actual salary of the programmer.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
$9.50 an hour and all of the ice I can eat.
Of course, as an indentured servant for the University of Texas, so it is to be expected...
====
Crudely Drawn Games
I just did the math. I get paid about $126/hr to program, $53/hr for managing my staff, $11/hr for humouring my boss (see, I did mention you!), $2/hr for listening to users explain how they think a computer works, and I have to pay the company $5/hr for reading
Hmmm. Maybe I should use these figures to re-prioritize my work day...
Naaaa...
-- MarkusQ (chaneling Wally)
That's a typical wage for a fully qualified software developer over here. Of course, life is cheaper, but we're still pretty much screwed.
Overcaffeinated. Angry geeks.
I think you'll find that $60 p/h is the cost rate of your job, not the sell rate and not the hourly rate you get paid.
:-(
Running a company costs money. They have to rent the building, buy the computers, feed the fish, and all this costs money. Companies amortise these indirect costs across their productive employers to calculate a cost-rate.
Our cost rate where I work is around AU$105 p/h (~US$80). I get paid a fraction of this
The argument to outsource works sometimes because the other guy's sell-rate is less than your cost-rate.
If salary grows exponentially, I'll be making $400,000/yr in 2010.
I don't doubt that there are a lot of programmers out there raking in over $100,000, even in my area. They are certainly worth it.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
Thanks to a typo I make $.600 dollars an hour ...oh, wait
That'd be more appropriate for the monthly or weekly salary! Even programmers here in China don't get that much! Some newer guys here can't even afford an SCO Linux license (USD$699) from a month's work! AND I AM NOT KIDDING OR TROLLING, DON'T MOD THIS FUNNY OR TROLL! IT IS REAL!
Wake up folks, for the sake of fact, your programmers' salaries in the US are WAY higher than where your company is outsourcing to. I'm not saying if these companies' decision are right or not. But if you still think these US companies are outsourcing to someone working at USD$80 a day, then either someone is cheating your boss or you're cheating yourself.
I'm not a programmer, I'm a Tech Consultant, but I ask for and get $150/hour. I consider programmers' jobs to be much more difficult than mine. I'm kind of surprised that the programmers here are making so much less than I would have expected.
I'm sure sorry to hear all you programmers making more money than I am...I'm an Oracle DBA in Dallas. Been doing it for 4 years, only making $52k plus benifits. Apparently that's too much money for the major telco firm I work for cause they are offshoring every techie position...I don't know about the rest of you, but after the unpaid overtime I put in, I make, maybe, $19/hour.
Free? No. It's just paid for by other people.
Java is the blue pill
Choose the red pill
i work two part time programming jobs as a student and get paid 9 dollars an hour. i manage to pay my rent and eat. I sometimes go to the dollar movies and dollar drink nights. ah well, at least i get laid.
A year ago it was $40/hr for similar work. The year before that it was about $60/hr. Maybe their numbers are just out of date. ...still $35/hr programming beats $8/hr pouring lattes at Starbucks.
That's what I'm seeing here too... $35/hr for C++ contract work. No benefits. Who would've believed it 3 or 4 years ago?
Hey, who moved my paneer?
> Dear Sir,
>
> I am currently seeking a full time programmer to perform general
> maintenance and feature enhancements on my C++ code base. The software is
> an open source decompiler that is used by our engineers for the recovery
> of lost source code. The entire code base is over 216 thousand lines of
> code and over 6 years old. I am hoping to hire this full time developer
> towards the end of the first quarter of 2004. This would be a long term
> appointment, hopefully with the addition of a new programmer each year for
> the next 5 years. If your company is interested, please forward me
> details of your rates and availability.
We would definately be interested in assisting you.
We charge 1850 USD per man - month of development.
Looking forward to hearing from you.
Regards,
Z. M. Karbhari
Managing Director - CygNET Systems Pvt. Ltd
URL : www.cygnetsoft.com
Email : karbhari@cygnetsoft.com
Voice : +91-20-6134980, +91-20-6129357, +91-20-6125365 Fax : +91-20-6129357
How we know is more important than what we know.
And I'm not being sarcastic--it helps to know I'm not alone. I know what you're going through, and I've been struggling for 3 years now with a similar problem. After 3 years, I've gotten up to 35k per year! Wow! And I'm still not even programming. I'm doing server administration for a small company. But at least it's something.
All I can say is if you really love it, then don't quit. I know I can't promise anything, but I'm sure you'll get what you deserve eventually.
"he drew his sword Ringil that glittered like ice... and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds..."
I just did an internship for a very large company and as a sophmore i received $30/hour.
I find this difficult to believe since they could find experienced people willing to work for very close to that. What kind of company and what kind of degree are you working on?
I would expect that to increase as my education progresses.
Don't borrow money based on that assumption.
I guess for employers that means they can cut costs on health benefits too! Great!
"he drew his sword Ringil that glittered like ice... and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds..."
Contractor 60/hr cheap
no benefits, few obligations, instant downsizing, no training costs, no retraining costs.
Expectation that all time is applied and on target.
Employee 60/hr
Might not include benifits
doesn't include burden of office, management, training and retraining.
The biggest expense in all this is the opportunity cost which is small for the contractor since s\he is only there if there is an opportunity.
The employee, unless they are hired specifically for the task (like a contractor), is an ongoing expense to the business. If his/her hours are profitable re-assigning them is a loss. If they are not profitable this task must make them so. This need to find something for someone to do often colours jobs.
Length and success of the task are bigger issues than hourly rate. Mistakes even at 8/hr are expensive.
ls