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Leaked X-Box 2 Specs Include PPC CPU
Jutebox150 writes "According to the MercuryNews.com, the specifications for Microsoft's successor to the Xbox were revealed. The specs for the next Xbox, at least according to this report, are as follows: Three IBM-designed 64-bit microprocessors, the same chips now used in Apple Computer's high-end G5 PowerMac. This will give the new Xbox 'more computing power than most personal computers.' A graphics chip designed by ATI Technologies that will clock in with speeds faster than the upcoming R400. But what I found most surprising is there are no talks about an internal hard drive, rather suggesting that the next Xbox will instead rely on flash memory, and, depending on hardware cost, backwards compatibility could be out of the question."
I'm thrilled over the potential processing power of the new Xbox. I love my Xbox and more Xbox goodness is headed our way.
I have mixed feelings about backwards compatibility. While being able to play current games on the next Xbox would be nice; too often, hardware/software is seriously crippled because of backwards compatibility. I would dare say that a lot of the long overdue innovation in Microsoft's Windows line was due to being handcuffed with compatibility issues. It may be that someone or Microsoft will release an emulator for the old games as well after the next Xbox is released. That is a possibility.
I totally don't understand not putting a hard drive in the system. That is a monster step backwards. What are they thinking? I enjoy being able to download and play new levels for current games, that would probably not be possible without a hard drive.
The one thing I'm most concerned about and I don't hear anything about yet, is, are they going to allow a keyboard and a mouse on the next Xbox? That needs to get done. Sony allows it on the PS2. The Xbox is never going to be strong in the MMO arena without allowing a keyboard and a mouse. First-person-shooters would be much more enjoyable with a keyboard and a mouse too.
Does this mean I'll have to buy a new modchip?
Why dosen't Microsoft give it up and admit to all the Xbox players that they're gaming on a PC? Or in the case of the Xbox2, a Mac. :)
Something tells me that "640K of memory should be enough for anybody" is not going to cut it...
Virginia Tech can make the next supercomputer using a cluster of XBox2s. And as soon as they did, employees of Microsoft would finally remove the flesh-like coverings and reveal their true cyborg selfs as they began the final assimilation effort.
If they can put enough flash memory on that, then why can't it replace a hard drive? Or external hard drive could be used (USB 2.0), lowering the cost but still providing an option for playing old games and using more features(downloading stuff).
we can expect a Windows XP version for PPC?
I am dying to switch from MacOS X to Windows XP, but it is the i386 price barrier I can't overcome.
Does it come with MyDoom pre-installed?
I don't need a compass to tell me which way the wind shines.
The hard drive was central to many of the Xbox's coolest and most unique features. Content downloads, soundtracks, large levels cached to HD to cut load times, large save files for games such as KotOR, etc.... Without the hard drive and Live, the Xbox would have been just another game console.
This is one case where Microsoft did a good job with v1 of the product. I'd hate to see a backward move like this for v2.
which is the better financial model?
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
The gem from the article:
The details suggest Microsoft is far more concerned about keeping the cost of its Xbox Next console low than it is with including dazzling technological features or driving its rivals out of the business, according to a variety of industry sources.
The Xbox outperforms the PS2 on graphics every day. Yet, I prefer the PS2 (mostly because once you are done playing HALO, whats next?!)
So performance is not enough. Nintendo's strategy was to underprice the behemoths, and they are still hanging on.
So if MSFT can sell a console cheaper than the PS3, AND!! get a bunch of games developed,
they will continue on into the future as a major player in the home console market.
(just my 2 cents)
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
First everybody thinks that Apple is going x86...
Now we know it's Windows going PPC...
(before anyone whines that XBOX != Windows... Two words (ok three): DirectX and Kernel Functions...)
how long until
Microsoft doesn't belong in the gaming market, they need to get thier OS woes in order befre they try to pummel another market. This division is bleeding cash and no other company would have been able to stomp in like they have. I personally want xbox2 to fail. If gaming comes down to SONY and M$ as my only choices, I'm out.
Support Nintendo, or pay for it later with generic fps and miltiary strat out the arse.
Ubuntu- Linux for human beings.
The PPC chips don't have the heat problems of Intel's or AMD's product. So you can use smaller and more importantly more silent fans and cooling.
The only drawback is that they trade power/heat benefits for reduced performance - if main issue with PPC's. This makes me wonder why they don't use mobile processors from scratch.
Over 90 years and counting !
The shocking thing is it will probably run linux and some variant of *BSD, but not windoze.
to save on cost MS may not make the Xbox2 backwards compatible.. They could save a fortune if it didnt play games either!
serenity now!
I wonder if M$ will port an embedded Virtual PC to the new system to ensure backwards compatibilty. Three "G5's" should be able to achieve similar if not better performance than the current xbox 800 mHz? x86.
Rumor has it Virtual PC 7 might have Direct 3D capabilities with Quake3 being playable on the 2Ghz G5 via the emulator.
The difference between the past story and this one is that the past story was "rumors" whereas this is "leaked"....
are going to be named "Agnes", "Denise" and "Paula". Really! It's true!
And "XBox Next"?
Wonder if the Apple legal eagles are licking their chops over that choice in name.
---anactofgod---
---anactofgod---
"Equal opportunity swindling - *that* is the true test of a sustainable democracy."
Remember, MS has said they can't make XBox 1 profitable. You can bet they are going to try to drive down their hardware costs with XB2 so that they can actually make some money. The harddrive is a big expense that could be dispensed with without too much pain.
Can somebody say Gamecube?
Why is the title referring to this story as being 'leaked'? Leaked implies that the specs were released before they were suppose to be. Or that some shady deal occured. This isn't true.
The specs and what not, were in no way 'leaked'. They were reported to the press like any other news story. Hell, I even got this information yesterday morning through my 'stock news wire' from etrade. It was a national official artical.
Oops, I just 'leaked' the sourse of my information.
-Mark
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain.
A large part of this design is probably lower heat/energy on the part of the CPU. While current G5s are still a beast compared to G4s, they're still cooler and use less power than P4/AMD cpus.
I've heard the reasons for not including the hard drive (I'm in the games industry), and they make sense.
1) People don't care. Believe it or not, it's not actually a big deal to MOST people. Yes, there are lots of people that do want it, but they're a small percentage of the population. It doesn't matter what they save their games on as long as it's fast.
2) With the PPC, backwards compatibility is already broken. Not to mention backwards compatibility is a pain in the ass for developers as well. They don't care about it, either. It's just not worth the money in the end to make a system that's backwards compatible unless it's easy. The PS1 is a single chip in the PS2. The Game Boy is pretty primitive, and is also easy to include in a GBA. For the Xbox 2 to be backwards compatible, it would either a) have to be the same architecture again or b) have an Intel 733 in there again that somehow gets used with XBox 1 games. Interestingly, the majority of the population isn't interested in backwards compatibility as a MAJOR feature anyway. It's just another bullet point to them.
3) Hard drives are expensive. The interesting thing about hard drives is that they never get cheaper, just bigger. Microsoft gets murdered with every hard drive they put in the Xbox.
4) They want this to be part of their digital hub thing. Since the Xbox 2 will likely have a network connection, if you want to store things more permanently, I heard mumblings about being able to do it on your PC.
5) The hard drive does a couple other things: generate heat and take up space. Getting the size down is something that they have to do if they want to make it in the all-important Japanese market.
6) Lastly, they don't want Linux running on Xboxes. If you want a PC, they want you to go out and buy a PC with Windows on it. The margins are better there.
I think this new Xbox sounds exciting. I'm not a big fan of the current model, but the new one will be a huge boon to developers and gamers alike. With 3 general purpose CPUs and a unified memory system, you can do things like generate a single tree and have each processor modify the tree in memory slightly before sending it to the GPU. Voila! Instant forest with quickly generated unique trees.
The newest version of the xbox has already been hacked. It will contain a flash memory bootable version of something related to Darwin, which will then sit there and look cool, and do absolutely nothing since there is no hard disk, keyboard, or mouse.
stuff |
I just hope they make a controller that a kid can hold this time. And a box with a flat top, so you can stack other units (VCR's, PS2's, etc), unlike that stupid dome they have at the moment.
The xbox was alright, but it really suffered from stupid visual and useability design decisions...
Or MS is getting ready to take over the PPC-based OS market as well. Once a version of XP Embedded is written for the PPC, how hard would it be to port a full version over? This may be good for IBM, but it's yet to be seen whether Apple will find anything to celebrate over.
Then again, Mac fanatics are crazier then most Mujahideen soldiers. Just look at the response to someone ripping out the guts of a dual G5 and replacing it with an AMD. MS would have to step very carefully in this arena...
This does not ring in as being bullshit to anyone?
I would have blinked if they said it has ONE CPU similar to the one in the G5, but three?
Come on.
... HOWEVER, I see a combination of advantage and disadvantage. On the one hand this will require starting from scratch; I'm sure GNU/Linux can be customized to run with flash memory, or from optical media like Knoppix, but it will take time. On the other hand, Microsoft's security attention will be drawn away from the legacy model. This means that the old XBox is up for grabs, and we can expect minimal future security blockades. Old XBoxen will be VERY big sellers among Linux enthusiasts, possibly selling secondhand for as much as they sold as new, if not more.
But regarding backaward compatibility, I wouldn't worry about it. Remember that Microsoft bought Connectix, the maker of Virtual PC, and has been looking into technologies for running virtual machines. This may be related to those efforts, and running i386 game code on a PowerPC 970 might be doable with the right emulation built into the OS.
What really surprises me is that Windows code is well-organized enough that Microsoft thinks they can port it to another platform at all.
MMORPG without a keyboard is a dreadful experience. A keyboard for X-Box2 (Y-Box?) could bring the MMORPG experience into the living room.
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
Does this mean that Macophiles can no longer bemoan the vileness of "Wintel" if M$ is using the same processor in one of their flagship products that Apple does.
Will this also make it easier to port XBox titles to the Mac? Will this make the Mac a more viable gaming platform?
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
This pretty much explains why Microsoft bought Virtual PC. If they are at all interested in backwards compatibility, they are going to need to VPC to run old games on the G5.
Ugliest. Mac. Evar !
As much as everyone is griping about backwards compatability, do you really need it? I thought it was a cool feature when buying the ps2 over 3 years ago but I never used it. I didn't have any urge to play ps1 games after playing a few ps2 titles and if I wanted to play ps1 games, I could always hook up my ps1. Its not like your going to the sell the system on eBay and make any money. Same goes for the xbox by the time the xbox 2 comes out. I would prefer MS make something new rather than be limited by a backwards compatability requirement. Look what backwards compatability did for windows :)
I believe that they want to remove HDs from peoples homes, and have everyone store their data on MS servers.
You'll pay a monthly fee to use your account and get terminal access to the approved software suite and library of games. Migrating to another platform will become well-nigh impossible.
And if you're a small-time developer? There's always telemarketing....
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
That's a stab in the back as far as I'm concerned. Yes, I have an X-box, and I can play the Xbox games on it.
But, as a part-time salesdroid, one of the larger selling points of the PS2, at least as far as "Parents buying for Kids" is concerned, is that they can just plug in the PS2 where the PS1 is, the OLD games still play on it, and the new games will as well.
To me, that was one of the wisest decisions of Sony, as well as keeping the -same- form factor of their interconnects. Nintendo was close, but had the N64 been able to play the NES/SNES games out of the box? There would have been no contest in that segment of the console wars.
No HD? Fine, I can deal with that. I'll get a mem card. I have one for my OTHER consoles, I can do that with the Xbox2. But -please- don't make me have to purchase an additional kit just to play DVD's... my PS2 doesn't need it, why should the Xbox?
Also, ditch the "Xbox Only" games. FINE, so your competitors can get a shot at them. If your hardware is -superior- are you really worried? These days, since I now own pretty much all of the 'current' consoles, if I'm getting a game, I go for the one that looks, and 'feels' the best. I'm not a platform zealot.
And take a lesson from the Nintendo Book Of Things To Not Do. (That they seem to be good at writing, but never reading from.) Don't make your controller look like a Klingon Hand-to-Hand weapon. Don't add more buttons Just Because You Can.
And while you're at it, sure, your games are targetted at "Mature Gamers"... from my experience as a salesdroid, that's where you're losing to all the other systems. Other than "Barbie rides a horse again" game for girls, and the occasional sports game or what have you, 90% of your titles, a parent isn't going to purchase, even for a teen, because its Questionable. I'm not saying, take the Nintendo Route Of Least Offensiveness And Family Entertainment. Just take some of your Huge Wad Of Cash, and make a few Games Parents Will Buy For Their Kids. You don't know how many copies of Mario Party / Mario Cart I've sold to parent's who bought it because "Well, its a Mario game..."
(Oh, like Microsoft will read my slashdot post and listen to me.)
Apples current G5 rocks something like 7-9 fans depending on your config. For some reason, I just don't see a console with 18 to 27 fans in Microsoft's future. Certainly, I do believe XBOX Next will be based on an IBM PPC, but I'd imagine something a little more power and cooling efficient.
As for the hard drive; it will definitelyi be there or at the least, be bundled with the Live pack. The HD is absolutely necessary for Xbox Live, which as far as console online gaming goes, has been very successfull.
"Internally, Microsoft has begun developing game prototypes, and it is using G5 systems to do so."
Thanks MS... I'm gonna have a smile on my face all goddamned day.
~D
This sig has been enciphered with a one-time pad. It could say almost anything.
Seeing as how MS wants to keep the cost down, the XBox2 certainly uses 3 IBM "Cell" cores, not G5 chips. G5 chips are affordable, Cell is downright cheap.
This is the same core that the PS3 uses, and it is going to use it for the same reasons. Low cost, high performance.
3 G5 cores would take up a lot of space die space, certainly a whole chip. 3 Cell cores would still leave space for plenty of other things on the same chip, perhaps even the graphics accelerator.
Bob
According to the Microsoft developer specs, you aren't allowed to talk about "Data," "CPUs," or anything else in your games that might suggest the XBox was a PC (except for games like Star Trek where it would be diagetic). We had a game bounce from Microsoft because we "saved data." Having a first party keyboard and mouse would run counter to that mantra.
It's difficult to justify buying a big box if you realize that it is actually a slightly smaller box than you already have.
The ______ Agenda
Old article here
Yeah, giant gorrilla arms.
After all, there was basically a one in nine chance of both Sony and MS picking the same processor manufacturer. I wouldn't consider Via to be in the running as thier C3 barely compares to a P3 733mhz let alone a moster tri-cpu G5.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
what about the Game Cube? Were people angry that it couldn't play their N64 games?
No, and that's because the N64 lost its round.
PS2 ($180) can play PS1 games. GameCube ($150) can play Game Boy games. See? They both have backwards compatibility. Not all would find built-in DVD Video playback desirable, as it only encourages somebody else in the house to hog the machine for a 12-hour Meg Ryan marathon. Get a cheap Apex player if you want that.
Now we know the real reason the blogger got fired for taking pictures of the Microsoft loading dock. The G5 computers were for the XBox team! No doubt that the XBox team is using Mac G5s to create a development environment. I wonder if it is based on XCode? XCode for XBox. I like the sound of that.
If the Xbox Next is not backwards compatible, it will be destroyed by the PS3.
First, on the day of release the PS3 will be able to play all PS2, PS1, and the new PS3 games. Thus, it will have several times more available games than the Xbox Next.
Second, people do not want to have multiple consoles in their living room, especially ones the size of the current Xbox. Sure, some people might have a PS2 and an Xbox, but when the Xbox Next and the PS3 are released, the choice will be easy. If you choose the PS3 you'll still only need two consoles. But if you choose the Xbox Next, you'll need three.
Third, people don't like being screwed. When people invest in games and hardware, they like knowing that they don't have to throw them away every few years. Sony respects that and allows gamers to keep their investments.
If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
Have you ever seen VirtualPC run on a Mac? I've seen instances where VPC is able to emulate code pretty close to the x86 equivalent speed. Now if we're talking about a multi-way PPC, (tri? dual?) 970 class processor, even if you penalize one of the 1GHz processors 50%, it should be able to handle the 700MHz P3 that's in the XBox.
It depends a lot on what's being done, but a very rough rule of thumb is that it requires about three PowerPC cycles for Virtual PC to emulate one x86 cycle. That would make a 1GHz 970 very roughly equal to a 300Mhz x86 chip. Keep in mind that this is not a process that can be parallelized easily, and that Microsoft is constrained to handle the worst-case scenerio, not just the average case, since games are (soft) real-time. Based on this, unless this PPC chip being shipped is notably faster than is being estimated, I strongly doubt that Microsoft will be capable of shipping an X-Box 1 x86 emulator for the XB2.
My guess as to why Microsoft wants to use a PPC chip has more to do with piracy prevention. Most potential pirates and emulator users are using an x86. It's impossible to emulate a PowerPC at any kind of a sane speed on an x86 processor. Thus, all those Windows-using folks have neatly been eliminated as potential pirates -- if they want an XB2 game, they have to buy it, not emulate the system.
May we never see th
This bit about the hard drive might be a "trial balloon". This isn't an official announcement, so MS can still say "we never said we would do that; it was only a rumor." Now they will see how much people care about the hard disk.
If they do release without a hard disk, you will still be able to get one. It will be in an external box. They will probably have a special "storage" port, which should be a FireWire port, because FireWire can provide enough power to run a hard disk (only one cable needed).
If they are smart, they will not make some wacky custom connector; people should be able, for instance, to use their iPod as their XBox2 hard disk, and then take it with them to their friends' homes for gaming. (Even if they make a wacky connector, someone will make a custom cable so you can connect your iPod anyway.)
Initially I thought this was just a wild rumor. But the quotes in the newspaper article, about how most games don't even use the hard disk, were interesting.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
while seemingly a nice addition, backwards compatibility is not that big a deal. playstation 2 would have been a resounding success even if they neglected to make it run PS1 games, don't you think? at the beginning of the PS2's lifecycle, sony's profits were actually hurt by this feature (as well as its movie playing ability). since software is what ultimately creates profit, it's a better business model to make customers purchase a whole new library of games, rather than let them sit on the ones they already have. besides, you buy a new system to play NEW games. i doubt anyone dropped $180-$300 on PS2 just so they could give old PS1 games a whirl. besides, i think a lot of people like to keep their old consoles, esp. in this day and age of ebay, where defunct systems become collectors items. i mean sure, my TurboDuo is a relic, but does that mean i'm gonna get rid of it because PS3 or X-box2 is around the corner?
--They say only a fool looks at the finger pointing to the sky...
So, MS nick Nintendo developers and now they're nicking hardware technologies aswell! GameCube has been using PowerPC processors and ATI graphics for ages!
interesting observations, but, just because VirtualPC doesn't do those things now doesn't mean a version of the technology for the xbox wouldn't.
Is there any way these reports could be confirmed ?
:
I'm skeptical because
(1) A three-way machine is going to be extremely expensive to build. Not ideal for a mass-market console.
(2) Microsoft supported Windows NT4.0 on PPC, but I don't think they went beyond that. I remember them saying at the time that future OSs would be ported internally beyond x86, just to ensure the OS retained it's portability, but that such things would not be actively maintained
(3) The existing base of software and APIs already available for Windows/x86 would have to be ported to the new OS and the new architecture.
(4) I've never heard of three-way SMP. Two way or four way, yes. Three way is a bit odd.
I wonder what will be there first, a 64 bit Windows OS for the Opteron / Athlon 64 (and FX, for completeness sake), or a 64 bit Windows OS for the XBox deux? Seems to me that Microsoft is protecting Intels intrests with one -er- foot and kicking them in the parts with another.
Or are they just trying to presurise Intel with this? It would not be the first time that Microsoft would say "thank you but goodbye" to a company that was sure they were on the same side. IBM is a very dangerous company to ditch though.
Well, first of all, it's heavy.
Yeah, just look at all those people staggering around under the weight of their iPods.