Jobs to India -- A Broad Look

dumpster_dave writes "Wired has an excellent 7 page article on the current and future trend and nature of IT outsourcing from the United States. The conclusion: the smell of inevitability--the economy will survive, though your job, as it is currently, will likely not. Outsourcing is expected to expand from Service and code projects to the creative aspects as well, with obvious correlations experienced in the manufacturing industry during the 70s and 80s. An excellent read that provides good coverage of the perspectives of players on all sides."

Comments

Please explain....

[Kenja]

Please explain how the economy will survive when there is no longer a middle class because all the white-collar jobs have been moved over seas.

Re:Please explain....

[RickHunter]

Good question, and one no-one seems to want to answer. Most will handwave and make vague comments about "expanding economy" or "dealing with people" or "management", but that's bull. This is the start of an offensive to eliminate the American middle class, and replace it with a permanent base of slave labour in "developing countries".

Re:Please explain....

[be-fan]

Its quite a strech to say that "all the white-collar jobs have been moved over seas" when programmers hardly comprise all white collar jobs.

And I hate to put it in these terms, but I don't see a whole lot of difference between a certain class of programmer jobs and manufacturing jobs. I mean, isn't that the whole point of languages like Java? To structure things so tightly that programmers are basically just there to put pre-built parts together in a certain order? Does it really less skill to assemble a car engine than to make a Java servlet that processes customer transactions?

Re:Please explain....

[gengee]

Easy: We cannot import from India more than the sum of what we export (to all countries). When we outsource American IT jobs to India, we are merely importing labor -- the same as we would import a car, or electronic device.

When an American company -- a company which sells the majority of its services or goods in America, for American dollars -- hires an Indian, the American company must either:

a) Pay the Indian employee in American dollars, or
b) Convert the American dollars to rupies, and pay the Indian employee in rupies

Either way, the result is the same: At some point in the chain, someone is taking dollars for rupies, whether it's the employee or a third party. That party is not taking dollars because they like the smell of them. They're taking the dollars because they intend to buy American goods with the dollars. (Or they intend to convert the currency to another foreign currency -- and so the chain goes).

That we cannot import more than we export -- over the long term -- is true. To believe otherwise would mean we somehow live in a bubble where foreign countries work for us for free.

There is simply no way, over the long term, that we could outsource all of our jobs, to India or anywhere else anymore than they outsource their jobs to us. (More on that below). It's just not possible.

The special interests will come up with all sorts of nonsense, all manner of jargon to support their fear mongering. They'll talk of
races to the bottom, living wages, social justice and other such things. But what they really mean is "gimme." (Read: I deserve to be making higher real wages for the same equivalent work because I am an American. When protectionists speak of races to the bottom, they ignore the flip side of the coin: a race to the top).

We can rack up debt in the way of trade deficits. Debt which will doubtlessly have to be paid off eventually. But sooner or later the dollar will fall against foreign currencies -- as it is currently, btw -- and foreigners will begin to receive repayment of their loans to us, by way of American exports.

As American exports increase, so too will employment, barring commensurate increases in productivity.

One other important point to make is the falsity of the assumption that only American companies are offshoring. This is the most ridiculous assumption of all, and I suspect it's the root cause of Americans' uneasyness towards offshoring.

Foreign companies offshore jops to America, too. In fact, more jobs are presently "offshored" -to- America from foreign companies than the opposite.

We all know how Flint, MI was hurt by General Motors' offshoring of factories to Mexico. Michael Moore even made a movie about it. But most people don't know about the tens of thousands who are employed in America by Toyota, by Mazda, or other Japanese car manufacturers. An American factory closing and moving to Mexico makes a great fear-mongering evening news story, but a similar-sized new factory operated by a foreign company in America does not.

Capitalism is inherently cyclical. It's the job of policy makers to make these cycles as painless as possible. But the cycles will always remain.

There is no need to blow a fuse over it.

What's Left?

[RickHunter]

So if service jobs, creative jobs, research jobs, and development jobs all get outsourced... What's left and why, exactly, will the economy survive? Oh, right, we'll all get jobs dealing with people face-to-face, selling things to people with no money. Or we'll all wind up being managers.

Excuse me while I look skeptical and write this off as one more piece to make executives feel more comfortable about destroying their country and killing the population.

Re:What's Left?

[GnrlFajita]

You're just not looking at it in the long term. If everyone begins outsourcing to India, then the law of supply and demand requires that eventually the cost of doing this will rise. So they'll begin to outsource to some other, cheaper, country. The cycle will repeat itself until eventually the U.S. is the cheapest place to 'outsource' jobs to.

It's all about perspective, man. Look at the big picture.

Re:What's Left?

[alan_dershowitz]

There will be the people who own companies, and the service industry to maintain their lifestyle. Don't expect to get paid good for that either, since illegal and legal immigrants will do crap jobs for less money.

You could learn a trade, but don't expect to work your way up to running your own business. Trades will be corporatized, so if you want to be a plumber you'll have to work for National Plumbers, inc.

So, basically there will be a two class system, since they've effectively figured out how to eliminate the merchant class and the professional class.

Re:Note to fat USians

[Diaspar]

interesting... when reading the article, i notice the cost of their daily lunch is around 50 cents. now, for comparing:

average college cost - $70,000
average apartment cost - $800
daily lunch - around $7

just a few items. hey, to be honest i'd be happy making $20,000 per year if my lunch would cost 50 cents daily, apartment $30 per month (or free, as it is in many countries) and the best college runs around $3,000 for all 4 years.

all the amounts people make are relative to what they have to spend. would you like to make $300,000 per year? if your rent becomes $20,000 per month (hypothetically, for the sake of comparison), all of a sudden that doesn't seem like that much money.

I just love how people assume that in america everybody is fat and have free money growing on trees. we work 50 hours per week and our bills are very expensive!!!

Worrisome

[dustmote]

This is one of the reasons that I am relieved that I no longer work in IT. I worry a lot about those friends of mine who still work in the industry, especially those who have kids. I think that part of the problem is also that the market was oversaturated, so to speak. IT became the big degree to get in the 90's, because "that's where the money is", so the jobs that do remain have a number of people applying for them. Post-boom, post-outsourcing computer field sucks.

Don't trip over the FUD

[AndroidCat]

Keep in mind that while some jobs are being outsourced to India, it serves companies even better to amplify the FUD about it. They don't have to actually do it, and their wage-slaves are bullied into terror, submission and lower wages -- especially the new-hires.

Re:IT Fads

[Wister285]

I'm sure it's a fad much like the moving of American steel, automobiles, textiles, and a variety of other industries were. Oh wait, apparently companies have no shame in erroding their own customer base.

Re:IT Fads

[savagedome]

Don't forget that it was 97 and 98. *Everything* here in US was working then. Every startup was touted to be the next biggest thing. The 'hope bloat' if you will.

Times are different now. The bubble has burst and the companies (in a true capitalist way) are looking to strengthen the bottomline. If you cannot make money, well then atleast cut the costs (and yeah, I am aware of the cultural,social et al differences that are not factored but add up) and effectively, you've *made* money.

I do not want to rob you of your 'fad' but I have a feeling that this one is for real.

Re:IT Fads

[ackthpt]

Outsourcing everything to India was in vogue around '97 or '98. It didn't work then and it's not going to work now. But everyone forgets the problems and history repeats itself.

And probably one of the main reasons was they weren't ready for it. Now they are and as one indian service provider stated, they've worked to improve their product. Even getting the indian workers to adopt western names, 'Shawn', 'Jessica' etc. and working on pronounciation. While these may seem to be minor, consider the last time you had a grad student lecturing for the instructor of a college course and you couldn't understand a word he said (real teachers don't teach, they get grunts to do it and are actually working on grant projects or university fundraising, those who can't, do teach)

Power and communications were a problem, now these people who own and run the companies have their own generators and satellite communications systems.

Don't assume they didn't learn something and everything is as bad as it was. Dell's failure may well be attributed to only one service vendor who wasn't as polished as others.

Obviously this article is biased.

[big-giant-head]

Yes, why don't we outsource congress, what do we pay those assholes?? I'm shure we could pay a bunch of Indian PHD's (PHD in Poly Sci or something) to come up with laws at least as good as what comes from congress, at probably a tenth of the cost. Shit we would'nt even have to pay for all those building in DC. They could just email us our laws in PDF format and we could turn the capital into a 200 screen movie theater.

I thought sending manufacturing jobs overseas was a bad idea 20 years ago and sending Software jobs overseas is a bad idea. Eventully you have to do or make something cars, planes, software, genetic s, spaceships SOMETHING. We can't all sit around selling each other stuff at wal-mart.

People poo-poo this point of view, but I have yet to see any of these supposed "pure knowlege worker" positions advertised in the local paper. My guess is they don't exist and never will. They are the very wealthy elite's attempts to smoke screen the middle class.

In the 90's the laid off manufacturing were promised great jobs in IT or related fields. Now those jobs are being sent overseas. Next we are promised jobs as 'knowlege works' WTF is that. I 'm waiting for someone, anyone to show me ONE of these supposed position anywhere. You can't because they don't exist.

Re:Obviously this article is biased.

[big-giant-head]

It is not resonable to expect every member of your society to be a research scientist just to earn a decent living. What we are gravitating towards is a society composed mainly of very poor people controlled by a few very rich people. When that happens you should review your French history particlulary the period from say 1780 through 1812, give or take a few years. Alternately look at Russian history from say 1905 - 1920.

'They're called lawyers, professors, researchers, and executives.'

Most laywers don't care one way or the other. Academics (professors) are fairly split over whether all this is a good idea. Executives love it because they give themselves fat bonuses with the money they make sending jobs overseas. Most researches are either blissfully unaware or are wondering when they will be outsourced as well.

After all research can be done much more cheaply in India than here. PHD's grow on trees, no EPA to deal with, no FDA. Want to run clinical trials, go get some low caste individuals sleeping on the sidewalk and wala test subjects. If a few die no one will care. Point is, almost everyjob can be done overseas more cheaply, including yours, however we americans have to SOMETHING.

In your world Jonas Salk would'nt have cured polio either, because his work could've been done more cheaply in India. Then the Drup company that paid for it could supply the vacine to the suffering masses at outrageous prices, and if some could'nt aford well, who cares, certainly not George Bush or his friends.

Jonas Salk did what he did to help suffering people, not to help the corporate profit sheet.

Re:Obviously this article is biased.

[Free_Meson]

It is not resonable to expect every member of your society to be a research scientist just to earn a decent living.

And what is a decent living? Americans have an incredibly high standard of living and, barring an invasion, they will from this point forward. The geographical advantages of the United States, combined with the incredibly high education rate, will ensure that the average American can feed and clothe himself with more disposable income left over than workers in most other countries, regardless of brute labor outsourcing.
Just because you don't have the education to pull down a mid-6 figure salary doesn't mean the system is broken. If you don't like your job, get a new one or go back to school instead of whining about some guy in India who is better suited to do your job than you are.

What we are gravitating towards is a society composed mainly of very poor people controlled by a few very rich people. When that happens you should review your French history particlulary the period from say 1780 through 1812, give or take a few years. Alternately look at Russian history from say 1905 - 1920.

How can someone dense enough to think like this actually float? I know you're trolling, but I'll answer anyway. The United States has a far more even distribution of wealth now than Russia or France had during their revolutionary periods. It's less equal now than it was 5 or 10 years ago, but there are fluctuations up and down w.r.t. the distribution of wealth. Anyway, if you have a job, odds are you get paid a lot better than the military you'd be counting on to help you with your revolution, and whining to some soldier about how you're only making $20k more than them instead of $30k because you're no better educated than some guy in India isn't really going to win him over.

Most laywers don't care one way or the other. Academics (professors) are fairly split over whether all this is a good idea. Executives love it because they give themselves fat bonuses with the money they make sending jobs overseas. Most researches are either blissfully unaware or are wondering when they will be outsourced as well.

Whether or not these workers are aware of the situation has nothing to do with the fact that they are the "pure knowledge workers" that you claimed do not exist. Believe it or not, a company won't outsource their CEO's and it's not possible to outsource legal work. Our professors are the foundation of our economy and our researchers develop the technology that is new enough to manufacture profitably in the united states. The united states has the best higher education system in the world and, because of critical mass issues, this is unlikely to change. The pre-college education system in the united states is also much broader than it is in almost any other country, and while the graduates of most other countries' school systems have more developed skills, American graduates have a broader range of skills and knowledge, making them ideally suited to the entrepreneurial environment encouraged by the current economic climate.

After all research can be done much more cheaply in India than here. PHD's grow on trees, no EPA to deal with, no FDA. Want to run clinical trials, go get some low caste individuals sleeping on the sidewalk and wala test subjects. If a few die no one will care. Point is, almost everyjob can be done overseas more cheaply, including yours, however we americans have to SOMETHING.

The cost of the medical research you seem to be focusing on isn't product development, but FDA approval. Why do they get this? Because they want to market the drug in the U.S. They could sell the drugs in india much earlier, often ten years or more earlier, than they could sell them in the United States. This is why many patients awaiting unapproved medication go to mexican pharmacies when conventional treatments fail to cure them. Unsurprisingly, most of the research is conducted in developed countries, and b

parallel example

[theMerovingian]

I am reminded of when Coke tried to penetrate the Indian market with their sugar water. They hired a high power American ad agency, who made these commercials about the 'heart of India', with misty images of the Taj Mahal and such. It flopped.

Then, Coke hired an Indian ad agency. These guys made commercials with sexy women and fast cars, and Coke sold like hotcakes.

The moral of the story: creative work is more likely to be relevant in the culture it was created in.

And so it goes... unless we the people stop it!

[SmilingMonk]

So it all comes home to roost, eh?

Back in the early part of the previous century, few middle class, and certainly no upper class people complained when textile, glass production, steel, and later manufacturing were shipped off shore. Many people just smiled and wagged their heads whenever Unions complained about jobs going overseas. Some people warned that off-shore job movement would sink the US economy.

Fast forward to the present. Who's complaining now? It appears to be whoever is left in the middle class. The upper class still doesn't care. One difference this time is that the middle class is largely un-unionized and therefore un-represented during job/salary reviews and other decision making activities.

If people want to change things, here are several things to consider:

Corporate law specifically states that actions taken or products produced by corporations must be in the public interest. Yes, it says that. So a good question to ask is Is it in the public interest to put them out of work by moving their jobs overseas?

Corporate leaders currently earn over 600 times the average salary of their employees. Moving jobs off-shore is likely to make a small percentage of the US population even more wealthy.

Yes, it's still about the economy. For all his other failings, Henry Ford had an interesting idea that his employees should be paid well enough to be able to afford one of his products.

Until corporate officers are encouraged to employ people from the country that issues their charters, the gap between the have's and the have nots in the US will continue to grow.

The automotive industry

[Dr. Evil]

Isn't the automotive industry heavily regulated regarding foreign content? Isn't that the case for precisely the reason that Wired is blithering on about?

Also in the past fourty years haven't we seen the demise of the single-income family? Hasn't the price of goods, services, taxes etc all outpaced the increase in income? Don't Americans have the least time off and the worst hours in the industrialized world?

I don't see how the automotive industry is an example of how outsourcing overseas is a win/win scenario.

Am I missing something?

thank our tariffs on auto imports for those jobs

[SethJohnson]

Those Japanese car factories are located in America because tariffs on imported cars make it more economically sound to build the cars in America. While you seem to be espousing free-market trade, you use an example that is in fact protectionist. You get rid of those tarrifs and those Toyota and Mazda factories will evaporate back to Asia.

Re:Holy crap!

[crymeph0]

...you can rest assured that things will work out in the long term.

A deep, unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...

Your .sig is so ironic.

No

[geekoid]

There are too many people in India. When programmer A wants a nickel more, they will get rid of them, and get someone else who doesn't have an uppity attitude about money.

The only way the US will compete, ever, is if our standard of living drops...a lot.

Now, If everything I need to survive decently had its cost cut by 90%, then I'd be able to compete.

Personally, I'd like all corporat tax breaks be removed from any company that outsouces. If it makes them so much money, it shouldn't be a problem, right?

Please explain where this all ends

[HangingChad]

The manufacturing and customer service jobs go first, then the tech jobs and it suddenly stops there. Bull-shit. After that it's accounting and HR, graphics and creative positions, account managers, sales. So, what's left? What's your next adjustment career? Anything that India and the Cheney administration are arguing for is guaranteed to be BAD for you.

Big Picture

[weston]

"The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent"
"In the long run, we're all dead" - Keynes

No matter how true the rosy big picture may be, the devil is still in the details for those suffering from the change. If there are things we can do to make the transitionless volatile, why not do them?

Re:IT Fads

[comedian23]

Umm, what country are you living in? Unemployment is high. Jobs are not being created. Uneducated people can only work at Walmart, restaurants, and other jobs making a few dollars above minimum wage and producing nothing. How is that strengthening our country? So a few highly trained people can get jobs in bi-tech? Great, that takes care of about 1% of the work force, and the rest of the people are supposed to take hand-outs from them? Or live of wellfare funded by the taxes paid by the rich which are constantly increasing.

I don't want to strain you here, but if we have 1% of the population actually producing something, and the rest simply serving those elite few, A) we have no middle class, B) we have a HUGE trade imbalance and C)we are making other countries rich off of American ingenuity. This doesn't bother you? Maybe you want your children to compete for a few highly coveted jobs which pay extremely well but are taxed at 50%, or else give up and work at burger world as a slave to the rich. The rest of us want the US to actually produce and sell a variety of good all over the world so the US can grow and prosper even more. And yes, we would be better off if we made memory chips here and charged enought to make a profit. We can counter competition from other countries by adding tariffs to cover differences in price and use that money to pay off the deficit. Of course the deficit wouldn't be nearly as high because we would actually be producing and selling stuff rather than just consuming as fast as we can.

-Comedian

Re:It's a risk that they think we can afford?

[TheSync]

US exports to developing countries like India and China are continuing to rise. As the economies of these countries improve, they purchase more from the US as well.

Re:An indian perspective

[donutello]

Nonsense. That is the exact kind of thinking that has led to India staying poor for the past 50 years. India's closed economy ensured that Indian companies could be successful without striving to improve their products. Compare the average quality of goods you can buy in India to the average quality of goods you can buy in the US.

Here's a newsflash: India is neither self-reliant nor powerful. Open trade improves the economy and the living standards. There are no self-reliant countries anymore. Every country depends upon other countries for essential resources.

And it's not as if the call-center jobs are taking resources away from other, more productive endeavors. Until recently the unemployment rate in India has been through the roof. You would have a very good point if these outsourced jobs meant that people were not doing other stuff that would be more useful to the national economy, however that is not the case.

The East India company took natural resources away from the country. No money was input into the country in exchange for these resources - rather money was taken away from the country when the products of these resources were sold back to India. This is not the case here. Outsourced jobs infuse valuable foreign exchange into the country and provide employment to a large number of people, improving the overall lifestyle.

re: Shawn & Jessica Nahasapeemapetilon

[Anonymous Coward]

In the past 6 months I've been on the line with no fewer than 5 different outsourced support lines in India, and let me just say this....

You can replace "Patel" with "Josh" all day long (which BTW totally fucking cracks me up) but it is extremely difficult to get rid of the accent. Hell, you see the same problem in the US with children of immigrants who, while they've essentially grown up here, simply don't speak English outside of school due to their family situation or their circle of friends. I actually feel sorry for them, because many sound no better than their cousins who are FOB (Fresh Off the Boat, a word I learned from some Iranian immigrant pals) arrivals to the US. Call me racist if that's convenient for you, but I've found that in the case of Shawn and Jessica working for Dell in Bangalore it totally impedes the support process.

Even worse, there is a common tendency to be extremely polite and deferential (perhaps a cultural thing?) while simultaneously simply not understanding what the fuck I'm getting at yet refusing to deviate from the script or think outside the box. I count it among the most maddening things I've ever experienced on a telephone.

Simple solution

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a basic simple solution to this whole off-shoring debate.

Give in and realize that
a. Software for life critical things (airplanes, military, nuculear reactors, etc) will remain the the US.

b. Software jobs for just about everything else will move outside of the US.

c. Linux and open source software will lower the costs of software so that there are significantly less paying software development jobs worldwide.

d. US based IT jobs will center around:
1. Data managament and security (DBA for a bank)
2. Data analysis - high level decision support for financial data
3. Physical presence jobs - on site IT/network work (pulling network cables, rebuilding pc's, etc)

e. The total number of IT related gradutes from US universities will drastically decline since the perceived job prospects are declining.

f. Commodity hardware ($300 dell machine), bootable OS CD's/firmware, and web based services will greatly reduce the number, type and size of programs installed on an end user's local machine. This compounds the reduction in support and development jobs since all of those installation program developers will be obsolete.

g. Mainframe type data centers will be the big dollar items in corporate IT budgets.

I think, with 10+ years paid programming under my belt + 2 CS degrees, that
a. there will be IT jobs in the US
b. the jobs will pay better than other skilled jobs
c. the pay will be lower in real terms than the current level when adjusted for inflation
d. that it workers in the US will have a lower standard of living than now, unless there is a drastic lowering of taxes at federal, state and local level from their 50% plus percent today.
e. that significant simplifications in government regulation at all levels are needed to make the US more compelling to operation businesses and employ US workers
f. that the ratio of people producing product to the people not producing product will have to be corrected from the projected major decline from todays level. The not producing product includes government workers at all levels plus those receiving handouts from the government (e.g., social security, medicare, ssi, unemployment, etc) .

Re:Simple solution

[Genda]

There is a basic simple solution to this whole off-shoring debate.

Give in and realize that
a. Software for life critical things (airplanes, military, nuculear reactors, etc) will remain the the US.

b. Software jobs for just about everything else will move outside of the US.

Your response is interesting, but moot... it ignores;

1. Business will do what it bloody well feels like doing, and unless you write laws or change laws forbidding the export of jobs from the U.S., you can pucker up now, because those jobs will be gone sometime early tomorrow morning, and you might want to kiss them bye before they get on board that jet to India. Welcome to economics 101...

2. The nature of software must dramatically change. Our hardware is thousands of times more powerful today than 25 years ago, but our software keeps finding new and horrible ways to piss away useful work, meaningful process, and sane cooperation between it's desparate parts. We as a technological community need to stop this incessant process of polishing turds for business people who have spent the last quarter century trying to carve up the IP universe so that they might better charge us for the bits of data flowing through the wires. Instead we need to actually begin to look ahead and design software that utilizes the tremendous horsepower now available in new and exciting ways, and truly lay down a pathway to creating externalizations of our own intellect, that we might begin to finally draw from our inventions that which we dreamed of when we first began this journey of conception...

3. The use of software is soon going to be a diverse universe unlike anything any of us have ever imagined, from smart household appliances, to intelligence in your car's tires, to bioinformatics, and advanced modeling in proteomics, to 3-D interfaces designed to allow molecular engineers the needed tools to model nanotechnological systems manufacture. The stuff IT engineers do today is going to change tremendously over the next few years. How much of that should be outsourced? None? Some? All? The impacts of any of this stuff could be tremendous. How do you choose? What of software that writes software? What of software that converts human intent into meaningful instruction?...

There needs to be a completely different model for the production of software. Maybe we need a guild. Maybe we need some sort of Protected Status, as a critical and endangered national resource. If American allows it's intelligence to emmigrate, it will ultimately collapse. We need to create an environment conducive to the growth and development of human intelligence through the medium of external process... it must ultimatele be unhitched from the profit motive because profit takes IT in stupid directions. That is, direction inherently contrary to the expanding expression of human intelligence. Business must benefit from the fruit of that work, and should therefore contribute to it's perpetuation, but IT must be free to grow where it needs to grow to address and resolve larger social and human problems. Problems supplied by business should be resolved, or problems should be refactored to prevent unseen conflicts between the business intent and larger social considerations (eg. don't give a businessman a working program to run a fusion reactor that is itself poorly designed and will make a 6 kilometer crater when first tested.) Let collaborations between software engineers, social engineers, mathematicians, cosmologists, anthropologists, philosophers, artists and asthetics, architects, business visionaries, and financial planners occur, in fact make them occur. Generate societal infrastructure to make the creation, management, flow, storage, and utilization of information, in all it's forms consistent, seamless, and transparent to the average citizen. Begin laying down a future by design, as opposed to one that is mindlessly sputter blasted across the scenery.

Use labor resources around the world, but make sure tha

Re:IT Fads

[frank_adrian314159]

The bubble has burst and the companies (in a true capitalist way) are looking to strengthen the bottomline.

And this is the real problem - there is no sustainable advantage in outsourcing. Eventually, everyone who can outsource something does outsource it and then you're back in the same boat of no revenue growth, but it's five years later and you actually have less control over the situation. Plus, you've given your new foreign competitors the capital they need to create most of the infrastructure required to invade your market. The idea that capitalism requires the destruction of your economy ten years from now because it makes money a year from now is the main reason why we Capitalists are going to see our system collapse the same way that the Soviet system did. The main issue is that rewards will flow to those who have the discipline to wait for rewards, not those who choose to have them today. It's simply a case of short-term vs. long-term and we're on the wrong side of the equation here. If you think you're getting bit in the ass now, just wait a few years when the chickens finally come home to roost.

Re:IT Fads

[be-fan]

:: stands speechless ::

If people did what you actually suggested, the global economy would revert to the 1700s.

Clue: Free trade is good. Economists say it is good. Economic theory shows trade tarrifs always lead to a reduced GDP in the long term. History shows it is good. Consider France. Before Napoleon, the various provinces were independent, and each had trade barriers (tarrifs, laws, etc) with each other. Napoleon got rid of them, and the entire economy prospored. Consider Europe as a whole. By tearing down trade barriers between countries, the European economy as a whole is becoming more competitive in the world. Consider the US trade relationship with Canada. It directly supports millions of jobs in each country. Hell, despite early criticism, even NAFTA has been successful!

Re:Holy crap!

[vsprintf]

What did we produce after we stopped producing shoes, then cars, etc? Other stuff!

When the jobs in agriculture started disappearing, people were told to retrain and get jobs in manufacturing. When the textile and manufacturing jobs were being sent overseas, we were told to reeducate ourselves and move up the food chain to knowledge work. If you'd read the article (either time it was posted), the looming question that nobody can answer is, *what comes after knowledge?* The author waved his hands, and like you, said *oh, something else*.

The point is, this is the first time in history when people have been educated for and lost two careers to outsourcing in a lifetime. The agricultural period lasted about 100 years, the manufacturing period lasted about 40 years, and the IT period about 20 years. It takes many people 25 years to pay off an education in the U.S. It is now a losing proposition. Whatever this next, great unknown thing is, the trend indicates it will last for 10 years (if it happens). Tell us now what the people who are losing their jobs need to be learning.

Capitalism works because human progress is unlimited.

Can you supply some proof that capitalism works? Where has it been tried? Certainly not in the U.S., where we have the worst mismash of capitalism and a centralized, regulated economy. Ever heard of the FRB, the FTC or a dozen other federal regulatory agencies? Ever heard of wage/price limits, minimum wages, tariffs, duties, NAFTA, favored trade status, or fast-track trade agreements? How about H-1B/L1 visas where certain industries are allowed to freely import cheaper labor denied to other sectors?

Unless you believe that progress will come to an end, you can rest assured that things will work out in the long term.

Nursing a burger patty from frozen pink disk to hot brown lunch is "progress". Got anything a little more substantial? As a previous poster pointed out, having your sig on that comment is classic.

Re:IT Fads

[comedian23]

Trade is fine you have something to trade. The US comes up with an industry and gives all the jobs to outsiders while our own people can't find decent paying work. We have to protect our jobs, and actually make something. I can't be the only person in the US seeing rows of closed factories in almost every city but a Walmart and Starbuck's on every corner. Answer me how Starbuck's is helping our GDP. Great, if there is a latte shortage in the world we can be there to help.

The US is manufacturing virtually nothing compared to what we used to. Take a look at our trade imbalances with EVERYONE and then tell me Free Trade is good. Also don't believe everything you read or hear, take a look around you and see for yourself. I see people with Masters Degrees working at Circuit City, and some people have been out of work for almost a year with no end in sight. Doesn't sound like moving into the future to me. Sounds like the a bunch of our states are nearly bankrupt and the US debt is huge.

Every job we send overseas is less money and less power for the US. But believe what you want.

-Comedian

Re: Shawn & Jessica Nahasapeemapetilon

[Shakrai]

Even worse, there is a common tendency to be extremely polite and deferential (perhaps a cultural thing?) while simultaneously simply not understanding what the fuck I'm getting at yet refusing to deviate from the script or think outside the box. I count it among the most maddening things I've ever experienced on a telephone.

My Dell phone call from two weeks ago: (note: My company has a three year next-day service contract with Dell -- they are no longer supposed to be sending the Commercial Clients to India yet somehow I wound up there)

[Indian accent]: "Thank you so much for calling Dell support my name is Josh how may I assist you with your problem today?"
[Upstate NY accent]: "Yes, this is Timothy [xxx] from [xxx], I have a Dell here with a bad power supply, I need to get a replacement sent to me. The service tag is [xxx]."
[Indian accent]: "Yes sir, thank you so much. Let me pull up your information sir. Ah yes sir I have it here. Tell me Sir what is your name?"
[Upstate NY accent]: "I already told you, my name is Timothy [xxx]. I'm listed on the account as the contact."
[Indian accent]: "Ah yes sir, thank you so much for giving me that information. Sir I need to understand your address."
[Upstate NY accent]: "It's [xxx]."
[Indian accent]: "Ah yes sir, thank you so much for giving me that information. Sir I need to understand your telephone number."
[Upstate NY accent]: "*sigh* This is all listed on the account. It's [xxx]."
[Indian accent]: "Ah yes sir, thank you so much for giving me that information. This is a Dell Optiplex correct sir?"
[Upstate NY accent]: "That's correct."
[Indian accent]: "Ah yes sir, thank you so much for giving me that information. How may I assist you with your problem today?"
[Upstate NY accent]: "Like I said, this unit has a dead power supply and I need to have a replacement sent out. We have a service agreement."
[Indian accent]: "Ah yes sir, I am understanding that you have such agreement. It expires in March 2005."
[Upstate NY accent]: "That's right, now can we make this happen?"
[Indian accent]: "Yes sir, we will do that. I need you to insert your Dell resource CD so we can run system diagnostics to confirm the problem."
[Upstate NY accent]: "Umm... the power supply is dead. I know what the problem is."
[Indian accent]: "Yes sir I am understanding that you think the problem is that, but I need you to insert your Dell resources cd so we can run diagnostic to confirm the problem."
[Upstate NY accent]: "Your not listening to me. The power supply is dead. I can't turn the unit on."
[Indian accent]: "Yes yes, I am understanding your problem, but we need to follow procedure. Please insert your Dell resources CD so we can run diagnostic to confirm the problem."
[Upstate NY accent]: "I can't open the CD-ROM drawer because the computer has no power. What part of that can't you understand?"
[Indian accent]: "Yes sir, I am understanding that the computer has no power. Is the computer plugged in to the wall outlet sir?"
[Upstate NY accent -- getting louder by the minute]: "You are not listening to me. The power supply is dead. That means it's not working. I can't turn the damn thing on -- please set up the service call for me."
[Indian accent]: "Yes sir I am understanding that you think that is problem, but we need to confirm it."
[Upstate NY accent]: "Alright this is going no where. Let me talk to your supervisor."
[Indian accent]: "No no sir, I can help you with this problem. Please insert your Dell Resource CD into the CD-ROM drive so we can run diagnostic to confirm the problem."
[Upstate NY accent - loud enough that the entire office can hear me]: "Ya know what? Fuck off. That's an American insult if they didn't teach you that in training."
[Indian accent]: "Yes sir, I am understanding your problem. Please insert the Dell resourc...."

[sound of phone slamming onto receiver]
[sound of me walking around the office threate

Re:Holy crap!

[Anonymous Codger]

>Can you supply some proof that capitalism works? Where has it been tried? Certainly not in the U.S...

Try the US at the end of the 19th century, and to a lesser degree, the early 20th. The results (depressions, dislocations, mass poverty, child labor, corporate thugs beating and killing workers who object to being exploited, wealth concentrating in the rich investor class, etc.) show that capitalism doesn't work. Of course, communism doesn't work either. The lesson we as a nation should take from the last 150 years is that what does work is a system in which capitalism provides the engine of the economy, but its excesses are restrained by strong government regulation. Too bad the right didn't learn this lesson.

Re:Rubish.

[wideBlueSkies]

>>Modern software is designed with resuse in mind.

Agreed. Reuse is great. Where it makes sense.

>>If you are trying to re-invent it the one that is completely out of toucvh is you, not your Indian counterparts.

I'm not advocating reinventing the wheel. What I'm saying is that you need to lay out and understand the problem that you have to solve.

Then pick the proper tools and components with which to solve the problem. It doesn't make sense to 'turn the problem around' and shovel it into a solution.

Show me how Java and J2EE can solve the business problem. Show me how this code block or an Entity Bean will solve the problem. Not how the problem can be looked at in such a way that it fits the code/framework.

There's a subtle difference there. Knowing that difference is part of knowing the difference between good and bad design. A 'closed in' design methodology does not work, it is not flexible, is not extendable and will not handle future requirements gracefully.

Reuse rocks. But good design rules.

wbs.