Slashdot Mirror
Ask Indian Techies About 'Onshore Insourcing'
This Slashdot interview has a little twist to it. Instead of using email, I'm going to relay your questions 'live' to people I meet while I'm here in New Delhi, speaking at LinuxAsia2004. Offshore outsourcing has gotten a lot of attention on Slashdot (and NewsForge) lately, but I figure that from this end we ought to call it 'onshore insourcing' instead. Feel free to ask other questions about 'geek life' in India, too; I'll ask as many questions as I can of as many people as I can, and post their answers when I'm back in the U.S.
I might be able to answer that in real terms for outsourcing projects (instead of just relocating the jobs)
During the dotcom and shortly after, the going rate for Java developers was around $100-$120 per hour (Northern California). To undercut the competitors and local contractors, an Asian software company bid on (and received a contract) to supply Java programmers.
The billing was at $80 per hour. Out of that, the programmers on site received the following:
:)
a. $40-$50 per diem fees (yes, that's right.. per DAY)
b. free fuel
c. a rented car
d. rented housing, situated reasonably close to their office
Each of the outsourced contracts typically ran for 8-12 months. Obviously, the programmers were also flown in and back home by the parent company. Now, you figure the margins
Disclaimer: this is just one case.. so YMMV
American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace?
No.
Are you allowed to organize into unions?
There are no unions for engineers/programmers. The companies have two "unions" - NASSCOM for software and MAIT for hardware.
Legally, nothing stops anyone from organizing a union, but on the few attempts made by some engineers, the HR guys across several companies - including US owned operations - shared info and blacklisted those engineers. (Basically HR people are the same kind of scum the world over. Refer to Catbert for details.)
How long is your work week?
Legally 40 hours. People may spend 50 to 60 hours if required. Usually it is, thanks to the stupid conference calls that US managers love.
What are your working conditions like?
Standard dilbert cubicle.
What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?
Vacation = usually 25 days a year. This may be called "earned leave" or "privileged leave" and is encashable for money if not consumed.
Official holidays (legally *required*) = 10 days a year. These can not be encashed.
Medical = Rs 15000/- a year for misc medical expenses.
Medical insurance coverage is required.
Profit sharing = optional. Wipro gives it. Can't say about any others.
Stock options = optional. I know some people who are millionaires. Yes, in US dollars. I've not made a penny. Yet.
Hope this helps.
Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? -- Yes. The rules are the same.
Are you allowed to organize into unions? -- Unions are definitely allowed by law. But as in the U.S there are no Unions of Software Professional. BTW, India is probably the only place in the world where there is a democratically elected communist state govt. In fact, the labor laws are stricter here. Its nearly impossible to fire Blue Collared Workers or Declare Bankruptcy.
How long is your work week? -- I put in the usual 40 hrs a week over 5 days.
What are your working conditions like? -- The food in the cafeteria is better here than what I had when I was in U.S :-)
What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? -- Folks in India probably get more vacation than in the U.S. As per Indian Law there has to be atleast 14 days of earned leave and 7 days of sick leave. This is excluding the 3 national holidays (Republic Day, Independence Day, Gandhi Jayanti); 3 Hindu Holidays, 2 Muslim Holidays and 2 Christian Holidays, Plus 1 State holiday; Unless they fall on the weekend. As far as Medical goes, Govt of India Rules specify that a group Medical Insurance Policy be taken out by the Co. Usually this works out to a coverage of about $10000 for about $40 a month. Profit Sharing, Stock Options and Employee Stock Purchase Plans all exist. In fact one of the biggest stories used to be the Infosys Stock Plan. Also, the Govt Specifies that 12% of your Salary be paid by the Company towards Pension each month. This earns about 9.5% interest.
I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive? -- Thats because cost of living is far cheaper here. Food - about $50 a month, Rent about $175 a month, Entertainment, Eating out etc.. about $100 a month. So in all about$350 a month is more than enough. Whatever remaining usually goes into buying a car or a house.
What legal protections? White collar workers generally do not get the kind of protections blue collar workers do. Salaried workers, for example, who work tens of hours of overtime per week without seeing an extra cent.
Also note that American white collar workers have the longest work weeks and shortest vacations of pretty much any country in the world.
As for medical and dental benefits, those are factored into the compensation, and are not a hidden cost.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Since I'm an Indian techie, I'll attempt to answer that. But the disclaimer is that these are purely my personal views and not a general Indian opinion.
Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?
It is quite clear that the US companies are using the tactics of outsourcing purely for their own financial benefit. It is extremely naive to think otherwise. And this is not just a US phenomenon. Every company around the world that outsources cheaper expertise and/or labour is doing just that... trying to get a competitive edge over its rivals by cutting costs. And I am sure that all the Indian developers (all but some of the greenhorns fresh out of college) know this fact when they're getting into it.
So why do the Indians still do it?
The Indian software firms use the US necessity as an opportunity to grow themselves internationally. An Indian company bagging a key US contract can proudly proclaim their achievement and use it as a differentiator amongst its local peers.
Some of the developers, who are geekily inclined, love the opportunity of doing some 'quality development' and so they hardly complain. Others are overjoyed at the prospect of travelling to the US and hence jump onto the bandwagon!
And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?
I, for one, don't entertain illusions that the US companies would fall in love with our work and ignore cheaper alternatives if they present themselves. I don't think anyone else here does either!
With the US (and the global) economy having gone through a rough patch over the last year, the Indian companies have slashed their margins big time, to remain attractive for the Us companies to continue doing business with them. And I think the Indians have understood that in the immediate future they will need to stay one step ahead of their competitors by being the cheapest even though India has managed to brand itself as a key mover of the knowledge-based economy.
What does a decent 2 bedroom apartment cost per month?
Depends on how far it is from what americans call "downtown." See, unlike in the US, people in Indian cities prefer to live *near* downtown. So rents are much much higher if the flat is close to where the offices and shops are. Such a flat might cost around Rs 25000/- per month (around $500/-) and would be 1500 sq ft in size. 20 minutes away would be around Rs 10000/- per month. 30 minutes away would be around 5000/- per month.
How about food for 1 month?
I can eat out every night for less than Rs 300/- per person per night. If I cook at home, it'll probably cost me around 50/- max. (That's around $1 and change.) I don't have breakfast, and lunch is Rs 25 at the office - that's 50c to you.
Utilities, etc?
I assume that means water and power.
Let's see - power would be between 500/- to 1000/-
Water would usually be included in the flat rent or building charge. Say another 1500/- which would include water (unmetered) plus security and the use of the building gym and/or swimming pool.
You know, Slashdot does have quite a sizeable Indian community, though you might not be aware of it. So you might think about asking the questions here itself!
/.. Anyway, now that I'm done introducing myself let me see if I can answer some of the highest moderated questions.
I am an Indian and currently working for Tata Consultancy Services Ltd., India's largest software company that recently exceeded 1 billion dollars in revenue. Right now I am stationed in South America from where we cater to most of the Latin American countries. I'm pretty much the typical 'target' of most of the American outsourcing anger that gets vented here on
How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?
The way most Indians see it, this is mostly American capitalism biting them back in the ass. We do the same thing you do, but we do it at cheaper rates. Sure, we understand that Americans wouldn't be too happy about losing their high-paying jobs, but that is something they will just have to deal with.
Cost of living etc. in India, with emphasis on real estate etc.
Most people who start out in the Indian IT industry do not earn that well. On an average, I would say it is pretty much the same as what one would get after graduating from one of the other engineering disciplines like EE, CE etc. However, with a few years of experience one can get quite a comfortable job. For example, a typical IT worker with 3-4 years of experience can land themselves a job that pays about Rs. 40,000 per month (~ $1000). This is a good income in a country like India where you can have servants in your house for about Rs. 2,000 per month. AFAIK, there has been no study which studies the impact of these new IT jobs on the real estate market, but obviously some effect must be there.
Is the picture there as rosy as painted by the media?
I hate to say this on Slashdot, but it is actually quite good. Students from reputable colleges and universities do not find it difficult to find jobs in the IT sector. However, I would not agree that the degree does not matter. Most companies (the good ones anyway) are quite choosy about the people they pick.
How much experience do most Indian programmers have?
I would say ~5 years on an average. Agreed, there are a LOT of new people coming into the industry, attracted by the 'gold rush', but there are quite a few old veterans here as well. For example, my company is over 35 years old, and it is not uncommon to find people who have been here for the past 7-8 years.
American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?
No, the story you hear about 'sweatshops' are not true. Yes, we do have benefits. No, there no unions, yet. A typical week is 40 hours (8x5), but almost always is more than that, depending on the work load. Sometimes people do work for 15 hours straight, but on other days they also go home after putting in their normal 8 hours. We have vacations and medical benefits. TCS itself is not a public company, so there are no stock options here, but other public companies do give the option to their employees. Labour is inexpensive primarily because of two reasons - there are a LOT of people in India, and the cost of living is quite low.
How does it feel to have your skills and knowledge continuously disparaged by people with little or no experience of working with Indian programmers?
Personally, it bothers me
Total bullshit. If you live in the Bay Area or New York City, a Starbucks assistant manager makes $24,000-$26,000 a year.
The grunts working the line make minimum wage, with perhaps a dollar an hour in tips on top of that. Minimal benefits kick in at 20 hours a week. The clientele I wouldn't wish on anyone.
I'm a proud former Starbucks employee, free as of March 2003. Worst job I've ever had.
Boycott everything - they're all trying to fuck you one way or another
I work in India, and I am employed writing software. I make about 7000 rupees a week, and I work about ten hours a day on the average it changes every week. You are right that money is different here. For instance a succelent dinner for two is about fifty rupees.
-Srividya
I am from Bangalore (IAFB) It depends on the location actually.... It can vary anywhere between Rs.3000/- to Rs.10,000 PM. Food? Depends... If you are vegetarian you can do with Just Rs.1000/- (Even Non-vegetarians(like me) dont eat meat/chicken/fish everyday. Its more like 1-2 times a week.) If you are eating out(which Bangaloreans love to do)... It could be anywhere upwards of Rs.3000/- Mind you, this is really for guys who eat out every day..
Why is it okay to have years and years of "free trade" where every country is
coaxed, forced, badgered, bombed into succumbing an still when the same
free trade by the virtue of its definition turns around in one particular instance
there is so much insecurity, so much fear and so much FUD ?
Is it okay to export almost everything you can think of from genetic seeds to WMDs
to third world under tremondous pressure but when they can do a small job
better than you guys you start screaming bloody murder?
Have you all ever stopped and considered why there is so much terrorism in
middle east but why India has grown relatively peaceful (inspite of america's
staunch support to the biggest terrorist neighbour of India that it conviniently
turns a blind eye to while children are taught to hate america in their early
days at holy-schools)?
have you wondered that if you stop looking at the world like the British did,
a place to plunder, loot and exploit maybe, just maybe, the terrorism would
stop since people will have decent meals to eat and your own kids dont
have to get blown into pieces in Iraq so Bush can bask in glory, while
he re-defines marriage so he can deny basic rights to half the people ?
Wake up folks.
DO NOT PANIC
Apu is not from India, he is from Ramatur, Pakistan.
Bureau of Labor Statistics, 1997
Working-age adults:
Combined unemployed, self-employed, temprorary and part-time workers: approx. 40M or 18.9% of eligible workers.
Not in the work force, approximately 60M or 33% of eligible workers.
Total: 51.9%
Which means fewer than 50% of working-age adults were holding down full-time, permanent jobs. And this was in 1997, when the economy was doing rather well, if I recall.
Business isn't willing to pay for products, innovation and careers, so we get brands, mortgage commercials and layoffs.
I'm living on $12K a year as a PhD student on a bursary in the UK.
For a modern two bedroom flat, the rent is $675/month = $8100/year.
For a room in a Victorian flat/house with large bedrooms the rent is $450/room per month. = $5400/year.
(These are preferred by students/professionals as they have large bedrooms with enough space
for a bed+wardrobe+computer desk).
Council tax (half poll tax/half property tax) is $1500/year
(which students are exempt from paying, as long as no income earner is resident).
Electricity is $300/quarter. = $1200/year
TV License is $180/year.
Cable TV+Telephone is $60/month = $720/year
Broadband Internet (2 Mbit) is around $720/month ($150/year)
Membership of a Fitness centre would cost around $90/month or $1080/year,
although the university does have it's own fitness centre.
That doesn't take into account the purchase of a new computer/laptop plus required books/software.
(although you can blog these by winning various competitions).
Total cost: Own accomodation = $15120
Shared accomodation = 10305 (assuming all bills shared between four people).
Owning a car would cost another $4500/year. Alternatively, a bus pass would cost around $50/month or $630.
You can survive but not save for a mortgage or pension as the government wants everybody to.
The $11,000 on average for a programming job is a myth. On an average a fresh graduate out of a college gets between Rs. 200,000 to 300,000 ($1= Rs.46 approx) . A senior programmer with experience earns between (Rs. 350,000 - 600,000) now thats closer or greater than $11,000. And remeber like USA we have an income tax on higher side (30 - 40%)
And for the living costs $11,000 does not makes you live like a king for the stats
1) An average flat with (2-3 rooms) costs between Rs.5,000 - Rs. 15,000) per month on rent. But these flats are still below par with what you would call an average flat in USA.
2) Buying a flat would cost you around (Rs. 1,000,000 - Rs 2,500,000 ) and thats average (as above ).
3) A car costs between Rs. 250,000 for a Maruti 800 (a 800 cc car with no frills not even an A/C )
to a Ford Ikon (a low end luxury car yeah we call it a luxury car ) for Rs. 500,000 and yeah they have a lot of other realy luxury cars like Mitsuibishi Lancer , Mercedes Benz but they are all out of reach of even a good earning programmer. Most programmers would generally own a two wheeler as the cost of running is low due to low petrol (oops gas) consumption (petrol is Rs. 36 / litre approx )
4) A music CD would cost around Rs. 100 to Rs. 300. A DVD for Rs. 400 Rs. 1,000.
5) A decent shirt would cost in excess of Rs. 500 and a decent pair of trousers arount Rs. 1,000.
6) Food costs are arount Rs. 50 - 100 if you cook at home or Rs. 75 - Rs.150 if u eat out. The cheapest coffee at Barrista (the most popular coffee shop chain here) costs Rs. 30.
7) And yeah a desktop costs around Rs. 30,000 for an economy machine to Rs. 50,000 for a decent one.
8) Telephone costs aroud Rs. 1,000 pm under basic use and Rs. 2,000 to Rs. 3,000 if u make more call or are using dialup internet connectivity (and 98% or so use it).
9) Broadband is either not available or if it costs around Rs. 2,000 pm with dload speeds of 20 kbps (yeah thats b-band in India).
There are other basic eminities but this can give an idea of living costs in India and yeah $11,000 gives you only a decent living below par a middle class in USA but its more than enough for an Indian as we are not as materialistic as the West and there are a lot more people earning a lot less than us.
How much does an Indian college education cost the typical student? Is it government subsidized, or are students expected to pick up the entire cost? And how does that cost compare to the average yearly salary of a college-educated technology worker (ie, how long does it take you to pay of college debt?) I am an Indian. and an Engineer. Lets look at: Engineering: I did my 4 years engineering by paying a total of Rs.26,000 ( Medical: Rs.250,000 (ManagamentThe top most Mgmt schools used to cost Rs.150,000/year till last week. Now, it costs Rs.30,000pa. There has been a huge outcry over that cut. I personally believe that the cut was unwarranted, given that starting salary for a guy from these schools will be not less than Rs.600,000 pa. Debt? what debt? Most Indians wouldn't take loans for their education. It would usually sponsored by the parents. Loans are taken by people who go abroad(read US) to study.
I studied for 6 yrs. I paid INR 12,000 per year. I finished in '99. We maid INR 500 each month for food. We lived in hostel and paid INR 500 for that. I lived far from my home and traveled back if college for off for more than 6 days (it took 5 days to and fro). Each trip costed INR 300 with almost 50% student concession from Indian Railways. The queue for reservation was long (2-4 hrs) and so was journeys. We usually took book to read and typically 5-6 people traveled together so we used to talk a lot too.
where did my sig go? where's my sig at?
Any technical high school or university will be taught near entirely in english, as well as professional degrees such as law, medicine, etc. Both my parents did undergrad science in india and were taught exclusively in english. So I'm guessing they aren't targetting the educated.
I'm a U.S. born Indian (who has a Comp Eng degree).. and I also noticed a lot of Indians doing computer-related work. But then there are also a lot in the medical field. As one other person said, it is a cultural thing. But I don't think its limited to engineering/math. Indians place a high value on education, so you will see parents pushing their children to seek an education that will result in a well paying job. So that is an explaination for the large number of U.S. born (and Indian-born) Indians in these high-paying fields.
Also, for U.S. born Indians, many of the parents came to the U.S. on a work visa, meaning that they were most likely well-educated to be given that oportunity. And then they raise their children this way.
Are you serious, You must be kidding me, the life style is MUCH BETTER than here depending upon how you look at it. I know people who have stayed here for a few decades, only to go back to India for the better life style. Can you afford a big mansion for $100,000. How about a few servants to help you out with your domestic work or a driver to drive you around. An indian techie can afford all this with his job as a 'code monkey'. As for me , I grew up in India but have been working in US for last several years and I sometimes wonder what these dollars can buy me when i pay a significant rent/mortgage and a whopping amount in car payments and health insurance. You work 50 hours a wekk, do your own grocery, spend 1000's of dollars on day care.
Like I said, my friend it depends on how you look at it. And trust me it can be as good if not better than the life style here.
Okay, I have heard many ideas "cloaked in fairness" actually intended to shut down the notion of H1-B visas.
... I'd go do far as to say stuff from everywhere EXCEPT here. (READ: Trade deficit) What happens to the global economy when our consumers can no longer afford to buy stuff? The rest of the supplying world will suffer threatening global ruin to all nations who depend on exports to the U.S.
Why do companies want to use them? Simple-- to save money. It's never been a mystery despite how people want to lie about it. The desire to outsource? It's the same reason: "The Bottom-line."
So while I have read in previous articles that Indian IT workers actually argue that it's not the pay-cost-savings, but the quality of the work that is winning large contracts in India. So I would like an honest bit of feedback on this burning question:
If the U.S. lawmakers were pushed to write legislation that requires that outsourced labor earn 10% over American "fair-market" wages, would that be something you could get behind? Or if you think 10% more is too much for better quality, how about Equal to American "fair-market" wages for the same work? If you think that such law would threaten your current employment status, I think the argument about "quality" doesn't quite pass the acid test.
Sure, this is an embittered question, but it's one that demands honesty rather than a whole lot of flag waving. I think it's great for India and Pakistan that they have a resource that is working for them -- their people. I think it's great that thousands of people are rising above the poverty line! I want global economic improvement just as much as the next guy and possibly even more. But I don't think it requires that the U.S. economy suffers in order to improve another part of the world.
In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that any benefit that requires the failure of the U.S. economy would do so much more to harm the global economy that any improvement to other parts of the world wouldn't be enough to balance it all out and we'd be looking at a global economic crisis.
To illustrate my point, look at what happened to the entire Asian economy when Japan was going through its banking crisis. When the economic super-power that is Japan was suffering, it threatened not only to reduce it to ruins but to take all of asia down with it.
Consider that the U.S. currently holds the largest international consumer base in teh world. We buy stuff from EVERYWHERE
So not only are we taking U.S. dollars all but completely out of U.S. circulation in the U.S. never to return (because who BUYS anything from the U.S.? We're in a trade deficit with almost every nation we trade with!) buy buying labor overseas, but we're losing jobs in the U.S. which results in decreased buying power of our consumers!
This is no longer merely a threat of trading off our manufacturing and buying more from overseas, but this is a situation that has the potential of destroying our consumer base which would ultimately crash the world economy as far as countries supplying manufactured goods to the U.S.
The Phillipines apparently works at half of what he was being quoted for India contracts. Granted, the English is a bit better in India, but when price is king, India's better quality product didn't matter. (India... hope you've enjoyed your 15 minutes!)
Actually, the english is better in the Philippines. There are two national languages in the Philippines; English and Tagolog. America actually occupied the Phillipines from the time of the Spanish-American war until the 1950s, when it was offered Statehood. The Philippines declined and became a sovereign nation, but still had American bases until the 1990s. During this time, English became as widely spooken in business as Tagolog and it is considered a pre-requisit to get a job.
I have visited the Philippines twice and my fiancee is Filippina. I have also done business with Philippino companies and have directly witnessed their work ethic. I have been working in the Silicon Valley for 12 years and also have experience with Indian workers and Indian companies. I can tell you with full certainty: Philippinos have better work ethic, are generally smarter and have a higher degree of education, speak english more fluently and work cheaper than Indians. The one downside is that, since this is not well recognized, there are not as many companies doing outsourcing in the Philippines. Yet.
Competition to India is coming. And it is not just the Philippines. Asia cranks out more engineers than any other part of the world. These guys are smart, ambitious and will work for nothing.
For my dollar, however, I would still rather outsource to Russian firms. They have the best engineers in the world (outside of the Silicon Valley itself).
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator
Hi, I am Indian and it seems some people are interested to know about the caste system in India. I will provide some information and comparison to give you a good idea.
These are the facts:
1. Does caste system exists in India?
-Yes. But these days its probably more of an economic class system than caste system. There are rich, middle class and poor. This is the modern day caste system of India! And its no diffferent from what you have in US.
2. Are lower castes discriminated against?
-Yes ocassionally. Discrimination exists in every society and we judge a society based on their ability and intention to stop it. In that way, India and US is no different.
3. How does India deal with the problem?
- There are laws against caste discrimination. Besides India invented and implemented the strongest affirmative action program in the world. It was actually done before the time (1947)when lynching was a fair practice in American south. The affirmative action program is strictly implemented everywhere like higher education, jobs etc. In some states where lower caste population is high the quotas in education and jobs can be as high as 75%!!!
4. Do lower caste people live in ghettoes?
-Sometimes communities are segregated but in urban areas its not that way. There is no Indian equivalent of racially segreated communities in the US. Anyone can live anywhere and you cant tell a persons caste by appearance:)
5. Do lower castes have political power?
-They have enormous political power. India has many state chief ministers (governor) belonging to the lowest caste. India had many lower caste Presidents, Vice-presidents and prime minister too! Lower caste people are the largest voting population and since we are a true democracy, usually the lower caste people have proportionate political representation. We do not have a two-party system. There are hundreds of political parties in India and we need that to properly represent our enormously diverse population. (BTW, right now our president is a Muslim, prime minister a hindu and defense minister a christian! Its not related to caste though)
6. Are lower caste people (dalits) forced to do horrible jobs?
-This is the most common myth perpetrated in the western world. No one is forced to do anything! But, many lower caste people who are also poor tend to do janitorial jobs and other jobs that nobody wants to do. Many lower caste/dalit people in India are also illiterate and lack skills. So, many of them end up taking family profession. But their situations are improving rapidly. Indian govt for the past 55 years has been trying to undo the results of several hundreds of years of discrimination and we are doing it peacefully. We did not have to fight a civil war to eliminate the evils of our society. Its interesting to note that bad jobs are usually taken care of by immigrants and minorities in the US. You might as well call it caste system of the US. (let me know when you see a non-hispanic janitor!)
7. Do lower caste people have equal opportunities in education?
-Yes. There is nothing like school district in India. Anyone can attend any school. So even poor people can share good public schools with rich people. We dont force our poor population to live in bad neighborhoods and poor school districts. Poverty and richness coexist in India and its fairly common to see a slum and a mansion side by side! We dont believe in hiding our poverty in the inner-cities and urban ghettoes and condemn those people to perputal cycle of violence, poverty and lack of education. Actually we show our poverty to everyone else and we are proud the way we are dealing with it...(The Brits left us in 1947 with 90% people living in poverty with a life expectancy of 35 years. In 50 years we managed to cut down the poverty to 25% with life expectancy of 67 years!) There are rich kids going to good private schools. But there are plenty of good public schools for everyone. Most Indians working in IT are not rich people. They are ordinary
There is a 11.30-12.30 hour difference between indian and us time zones.I live in Central time[kansas].
My indian friends who chose to work in India instead of Masters degree in USA are not that joyous abt the kinda job they do
At the end of day , they get good bucks.Their complaint is that companies are pushing them to work on an average 10-12 hours per day.Weekends too..One of my friend has work every other weekend.
Sheer compettition in India drove me to USA
Hello , this is my way.
Which way is yours ?
btw there is no right way
At worst with the Evangelical Christians is they'll nag you to death trying to get you to convert. Boy that sure is evil of them.
Thats not how its done everywhere. In tribal and backward areas in India where even basic necessities are scarce, there have been a large number of cases where the churches have lured people with the temptation of food and clothing (funded from western contributions) rather than on the merits of the ideology. Forcing conversions under such circumstances is definitely wrong and equally objectionable. I have personally read comic books distributed among poor children by evangelical christian organizations in India that had stories which showed Jesus is a good light while some other God as being fake or cruel. (Almost something like Jesus kicks XYZ Gods ass!)
I personally believe that any religion is capable of creating fanatics. I havent read it myself, but I have heard that the Old Testament also contains some very fanatical teachings.. Chrisitianity also has had its share of corrupt and fanatical practises in Europe during 14th 15th centuries.. Another example, Sikhism, one of the most beautiful and genteel religions gave rise to the Sikh terrorists during the mid 80s in India.
My take on the whole issue: Lets not try to solve the problem by concentrating on the religion but on the people instead. It is counter productive to say that religion X is inherently bad since history tells us that almost all religions have at some point or the other seemed fanatical. (Disclaimer: I am a Hindu myself and we have our own share of Hindu fundamentalism to deal with, even though our religion does not stipulate the need to use violence to assert our religious identity.)
With reference to your Hindu conversion statement, some information... Hinduism does not have a concept of conversion: The only way to be a Hindu is to be born as one. Of course you can practise the Hindu way of life on a personal level. Hindu conversions that you might have heard of are retaliatory movements started in the last 5-10 years by fanatic Hindus in response to the Islamic and Christian conversions in India.)
Ok, as the only one in my company(I think) who browses Slashdot, i would think not. There are very few "true" geeks in here, most of them are just here for the money.
I will take the middle-ground on this issue. I work in I.T., and have seen the market collapse, nonetheless. Uncertainty lies ahead, and we must be willing to conquer these issues as workers, families, and corporations -- but protectionist legislation is not the answer.
I disagree. I am generally not in favor of protectionist policies. But when it comes to outsourcing knowledge jobs, I think we have a different situation on our hands.
This "outsourcing" is also a key source of income for the people and families of India, who also need food, drinking water, healthcare, etc. If we continue to live in excess while the poorest nations are not given a hands-up, this will only lead to further class strife and conflict.
Then let them innovate. No one is stopping them from using their own money to invest in their own businesses that build products to compete in the American market. I am all in favor of honest competition. What is happening is *not* competition. It is an economic hemmorage that will eventually eliminate our middle class, if allowed to continue.
We are in the process of training knowledge workers in other countries to compete, giving them the foundation technology to do it and paying them for that favor while unplugging some of the hardest-working, most competent individuals in the United States from any hope of making a decent living in their field. Another side-effect is that it does not help steer American students into Science and Engineering to hear that they cannot get jobs, or cannot get a decent paying job, yet they have to make it through academics that are significantly more difficult than any other field of study.
What's next? No more scientists in America? After all, it would be cheaper to outsource basic scientific research to China.
Do you want to live in *that* United States?
Make no mistake about it, this is a threat to America and the most important role of a government is to protect itself against threats. Every high-paying knowledge job that is exported represents a significant tax-income loss for the government. Perhaps, besides examining tarrifs, the government should examine tax cuts or waivers for those sectors that have been the hardest hit. If technology professionals could pay 10% taxes instead of 45% taxes, companies could employ them cheaper, at least until a long-term solution to outsourcing is worked out. It would be better for everyone if the government collected a lower tax for a while, keeping more jobs in the U.S. and lowering the long-term threat to America's competitiveness (both because of educational choices of young Americans and third-world technology corridors that become super-charged through outsource funding).
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator
s far as I understand, joining the US tends to be one-sided proposals by fringe politicians, and has almost no mainstream support. The US is also unlikely to accept a new state of nearly 85 million people with a per capita GDP of under $5,000. The US itself is only some 300 million people, with a GDP more than $36,000. Absorbing the Philippines and bringing it to the economic levels of other states will cripple the US economy for decades.
Actually, examine the link I posted about statehood. It tends to be the politicians (rather than the people) in the Philippines that oppose statehood because it poses a threat to their wealth and power.
There is a growing awareness of the coming economic competitiveness of China and India in the U.S, and a particular school of thought that believes that we should align ourselves closely with a country such as the Philippines in order to challenge the cheap labor of India/China. In this scenario, the 80 million Filipinos working for peanuts works greatly in our favor. Done correctly, the transformation of the Philippines into a state will coincide with the use of the Philippines as a weapon in this economic war that is coming with China and India. The end result is that the standard of living, GDP and infrastructure of the Philippines is tremendously raised while the U.S. gets it ready to be a state *and* fends off economic disaster at the hands of the Chinese and Indians.
In the long term, in order for the U.S. to stay competitive with countries like China and India, we need to greatly increase our population. This also helps us achieve that. It also gives us an extremely strategic presence in the region.
It seems like a smart idea to me.
The reason that it can be true that 1+1 > 2 is that very peculiar nonzero value of the + operator