Ask Indian Techies About 'Onshore Insourcing'

Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas by RobertB-DC · 2004-02-09 05:16 · Score: 4, Interesting

Long before outsourcing to India became an issue, large IT companies like American Airlines were virtual H1-B "hardship" visa factories, importing large numbers of technical experts from India and other countries during the dot-com boom.

But when the boom went bust, and the layoffs came, H1-B visa holders were left out in the cold, unable to even look for a new job due to the terms of their visas.

Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?

And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?

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Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.

Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas by AnonymousNoMore · 2004-02-09 06:57 · Score: 2, Interesting

Well, alot of companies seem to have gotten no hangover as a result of discarding their "currently invested capital and starting from scratch" when they moved from U.S. to Indian based IT talent. As long as the labor cost difference is sufficient to counter the "exit cost" of throwing away current capital and yield a net increase ROI, there will be no hangover.

From the tone of your post, I infer that you are looking forward to a day of reckoning for these companies that outsource U.S. jobs. My advice: don't hold your breath.
Re:Before outsourcing, "hardship" visas by vthome · 2004-02-09 12:49 · Score: 3, Interesting
Well, alot of companies seem to have gotten no hangover as a result of discarding their "currently invested capital and starting from scratch" when they moved from U.S. to Indian based IT talent.
The difference that you are forgetting about is that we're just coming to an end of the first wave of outsourcing. Let me rehash briefly things that I have *not* seen (and I was watching all this outsourcing hoopla unroll, having been very close to the heart of things):
- concerns about quality (they were overridden by cost savings concerns);
- concerns about intellectual property theft (anybody remembers Ishoni Networks? Thought so...);
- (related) concerns about inability to bring the unscrupulous partners to justice - hell, they can't do that even if the company is in the US! (ask me how I know...)
- concerns about cultural differences - they're different for different nationalities, but they all have their impact. Nobody paid attention to this back then, because the decisions were being made by people on the top who may have never as much as spoken with an alien;
- concerns about xenophobia - foreigners in US had to live with the fact they were ridiculed, 'cause they came here by their own volition. However, not so if they are offended in their native countries, and some of the cultures are very particular about having their grudge revenged (Roger Zelazny: "revenge is a dish that is best served cold");
This is just for starters...
As long as the labor cost difference is sufficient to counter the "exit cost" of throwing away current capital and yield a net increase ROI, there will be no hangover.
I don't think you'd find too many companies that would advertise the screwups. Like I was saying, the cost to exit for some may have been so high that the only case when it comes out will be when the company goes down or the results are otherwise publicly visible (as in: Dell, HP call center stories, or that infamous case with a threat to publish confidential information). Therefore, they will pretend that everything is just fine until the very last moment, by which time it is way too late.
From the tone of your post, I infer that you are looking forward to a day of reckoning for these companies that outsource U.S. jobs. My advice: don't hold your breath.
Now, that would be foolish... I'll turn blue and die before that happens. As someone put it, "market can stay insane longer than a person can stay solvent".

$$$ in developers pockets... by Ummagumma · 2004-02-09 05:16 · Score: 5, Interesting

Out of the $25 it costs my company to hire an India-based developer, how much does that developer see, and how much goes to the contracting agency (Wipro, etc...)?

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"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson

Re:$$$ in developers pockets... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-09 06:15 · Score: 1, Interesting

Usually, 4 or more people are housed together in 1 apartment.

Average experience? by El · 2004-02-09 05:17 · Score: 5, Interesting

How much experience do most Indian programmers have? It seems to me that in ramping up from a few hundred to thosands of programmers over the past few years, most of these people must be fresh out of school... how much training do people need before they start producing reliable results?

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"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney

Quality of life by Scott+Lockwood · 2004-02-09 05:18 · Score: 5, Interesting

American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?

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But this is slashdot. A slashdoter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber!

Re:Quality of life by CrazyTalk · 2004-02-09 05:37 · Score: 5, Interesting

Is this a flame? Programmers cant form unions in the U.S., at least in practical terms. We'd just be fired and replaced. The US work week is usually well in excess of 40 hours, with no overtime. We get a paltry 2 weeks vacation a year, which oftentimes we are discourage/prevented from taking. Insurance costs are skyrocketing, including copays and out of pocket expenses. Profit sharing and stock options are from the last century.
Re:Quality of life by kellman · 2004-02-09 07:38 · Score: 1, Interesting

What are your working conditions like? -- The food in the cafeteria is better here than what I had when I was in U.S :-)

Well duh! I prefer Indian food to cafeteria food any day!

--
I don't want to sell anything, buy anything, or process anything. I don't want to sell anything bought or processed...
Re:Quality of life by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-09 07:48 · Score: 1, Interesting

I am an Indian who worked in New Delhi after doing my post-graduation in 1989. I worked till 1995 when I moved to USA and then to Canada in 1998.

When I worked there, the working conditions were quite stressful. I worked in companies doing software development for domestic market. Outsourcing had not yet taken off, it was starting taxing to the runway.

Someone else has said cubicles are now standard fare. In my time, there weren't any. There were tables allotted to programmers in a large room or hall. (I am thinking of companies like Mastek Ltd. and Newgen Software Technologies, two of the companies where I worked).

I don't know of any such thing as a 40 hour work week. We were expected to work Mon to Saturday. In many places 2nd Saturdays were half-days. This meant that at instead of leaving at 9pm you generally left at 4pm.

People were expected to give their 110% or more. Nobody, but nobody, I knew ever left at 5pm. Any programmer who ever left at 5pm was laughed at "Hey this is not government office."

Several times one had to stay till late at night. This was the norm in many companies. When DCM Data Products introduced their 486-based minicomputer, their programmers stayed till 4 o'clock in the morning making their Unix offering work on it. It was released without a hitch that morning.

Many times one was expected to come on Sundays also. It was a given that you would come. There were no thanks ever given after you worked on a Sunday. I once took a vacation of 5 days after a long time and my manager was very reluctant to give it.

Added to that was the stress of driving, of unreliable power situation, and of a host of other things that routinely plague an under-developed nation. For example, in those days, one had to take half a day leave just to submit your electricity bills, because that's how long it took. Fortunately, most people had servants to do it for them or gave the local electric supply store some money to submit it for you.

In Delhi, the temperature reaches 46 degrees celsius (115 F) in summers. I remember one time it was like that. Although the room I was working in was air-conditioned (the rest of the office wasn't, they had a cooler - a device that sends out air cooled by evaporation - is ineffective when in humidity which envelopes Delhi after May), my butt got sweaty after only half-an-hour or so.

I now live in Canada. Sometimes I have to suffer temperatures of -40 celsius(-40 F), but it's far better than +46 celsius.

There's a bookstore in Connaught Place in New Delhi, called BPB Publications from where I chiefly got my computer books. They used to, and still do, sell Eastern edition books at a fraction of the price for which they are sold in US and Canada. Whenever I visit India, I buy a few books from there. This situation is expected to change soon.

Freeware wasn't known then. We used to get pirated software from a shop called SKW in Greater Kailash. Initially they operated quite openly. After they were raided a few times, they became more discrete. I don't know what are they doing now. But it is through them that I got Turbo Pascal, Turbo C and C++, Turbo Assembler, MSC, PC Tools, Norton Utilities, Windows 3.0 and 3.1, Visual Basic, etc. and learned the ropes.

Two Q by savagedome · 2004-02-09 05:18 · Score: 5, Interesting

The most important question I would like to ask is "Is the picture there as rosy as painted by the media?"

From what I keep hearing, the scenario there right now is being compared to the tech boom here (in US) in the 90s. Is it true that "If you have a degree, immaterial of what degree, you can get a tech job."

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Free XBox, PS2

11K/year by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-09 05:18 · Score: 5, Interesting

How do you feel about competing on what I see as a non-competitive playing field? $11,000 per year is a good salary in India, but wouldn't allow me to live above poverty in any U.S city.

Population vs. population with jobs? by bc90021 · 2004-02-09 05:18 · Score: 5, Interesting

With one billion people in India, what is being done to increase the number of employable people? Granted, while we in the US may not like our jobs leaving, it must be helpful to Indians. What is being done to increase the employability of the average Indian?

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libertarianswag.com

Re:Population vs. population with jobs? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-09 05:23 · Score: 2, Interesting

Is the Indian economy that we're moaning about, stealing all our jobs etc..., more of a western economy embedded in a third world economy, having little effect on more rural areas? They have enough people to do it...

Education and Training by Unloaded · 2004-02-09 05:19 · Score: 5, Interesting

To what effect is the Indian education making changes to keep up with the demand for trained IT people?

USA software worker makes 60,000 USA dollars by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-09 05:19 · Score: 1, Interesting

how much does an Indian get?

Real estate prices and cost of living by prostoalex · 2004-02-09 05:21 · Score: 5, Interesting

With the influx of cash and availability of higher incomes (according to local standards), how'd Indian real estate market doing? What does it cost to rent a two-bedroom for the family? To buy a house?

Do you think that Indian IT boom will repeat Californian and Eastern European patterns, where availability of US dollars drove the living costs through the roof, thus making developers not a whole lot cheaper than hiring local American engineers?

Do you see the costs rising in Indian real estate market? What would be the monthly salary, according to your estimate, to have a comfortable living in India in 2004, and let's say, 2009?

Biggest Contrast by linuxislandsucks · 2004-02-09 05:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

What is the bigget contrast between work and daily life in terms of:

-Internet Connection
-Electrictiy
-Water
-Living Space size when compared to office size

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Don't Tread on OpenSource

Re:Biggest Contrast by bronto001 · 2004-02-09 06:14 · Score: 3, Interesting

I am an Indian (Bangalore)
---Internet Connection
I use a dialup at home... but that suffices for part... but good broadband *is*available for very affordable rates. including 128 kpbs ones on CDMA mobile phones ...truly mobile

----electricity
This is the biggest grouse for a Bangalorean. We still depend majorly on Hydel power.. it was set up in 1902 ;-) (BTW, Blore was the first city in Asia to be electrified).

---Water
Summers can be very dry sometimes

---Living space.
Bangaloreans, traditionally prefer independent housed compared to Apartments.. no complaints there. Enough space

Cost of living? by demigod · 2004-02-09 05:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

What does a decent 2 bedroom apartment cost per month?

How about food for 1 month?

Utilities, etc?

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"The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."
Major Major

Respect by gowen · 2004-02-09 05:22 · Score: 5, Interesting

On many news sites, including this one, its common to see remarks like:

Outsourcing is OK for repetitive or unchallenging tasks, but you can't get the cutting edge / high quality / knowledgeable programmers that you'll get in the USA

How does it feel to have your skills and knowledge continuously disparaged by people with little or no experience of working with Indian programmers?

--
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.

American Programmers by JavaLord · 2004-02-09 05:23 · Score: 4, Interesting

How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?

What are Indians' attitudes toward the West? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-09 05:24 · Score: 5, Interesting

Is the attitude positive because of the increase in trade between us, negative because of cultural invasion, or a combination?

And I'm serious, don't just say "Oh, we love the West" if all you like is the outsourced job. I personally feel that trade is the best form of foreign aid, but I'd rather have an honest enemy than a ally who lies to me.

Re:What are Indians' attitudes toward the West? by SlashingComments · 2004-02-09 07:19 · Score: 3, Interesting

Like any other places, there are different view points. That being said, here is the one version
a)Indian's most of the time well respect the people with very white skins/black skins.
b)Going to USA was a great deal but not anymore since everybody's brother or sister visited US by now.
c)In general, technically they think Indian's are better at math and science but worse at smartness and games etc.
d) Baseball and football are two stupid games - don't come close the Cricket and Soccer
e) mighty pissed at US backing Pakistan in war-on-terror
g) Religion conversion is an evil thing done by people from the west
g)This is most important--if money to be made by doing business with US, then, you are god and the best friend.
I guess this is just one opinion out of 10000 etc. but this is a start.

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- People who believe other people have no right to live, got no right to live ...

Distorting the Economy by BigBadBri · 2004-02-09 05:24 · Score: 5, Interesting

Not specifically about IT outsourcing, but more about call centre outsourcing - does the drain of educated people to call centres have any implications for the rest of the economy?

Call centre staff can earn more than teachers, police, nurses, etc - are those professions suffering as a result of the call centres picking out the English speakers?

Is this storing up problems for India's public sector in the future?

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oh brave new world, that has such people in it!

What about the long-term? by The+Night+Watchman · 2004-02-09 05:25 · Score: 4, Interesting

This point has already been mentioned a bit by previous articles, but I'd like to hear an insider's take on it. The Indian tech economy is booming now, but like in the US, it's an unstable boom. Sooner or later, the US will look to other countries for their tech work, leaving India high and dry. What measures are being taken in India to maintain a strong internal tech economy, in the event that the US is no longer a serious customer?

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"Every jumbled pile of person has a thinking part that wonders what the part that isn't thinking isn't thinking of"-TMBG

The Simpsons by preric · 2004-02-09 05:25 · Score: 5, Interesting

Totally off topic, but I've always wondered: is the character Apu Nahasapeemapetilon on The Simpsons insulting to Indian's? Do they even air The Simpsons there?

Re:The Simpsons by hotchai · 2004-02-09 05:55 · Score: 5, Interesting

As an Indian, and a big Simpsons fan, I can answer that question right here.

Apu represents the stereotypical image of an Indian. I personally find it quite amusing, others may have a different opinion. Of course, like any other stereotype, not everyone fits that description. What makes India so interesting is the different subcultures within the country (these differences are more pronounced than the subculture differences in the US), people skeak different languages in different states, different types of food and in some cases different types of clothes as well. So Apu cannot represent a typical Indian ... there is no such thing as a typical Indian.

Apu & Manjula are indeed Indian names - not very common but not uncommon either. So are the names of all their kids ... I never seem to remember them all. The last name however makes no sense! But, somebody obviously did some research in coming up with these characters.

Tech Center Job Prestige by grungebox · 2004-02-09 05:27 · Score: 3, Interesting

Some of my cousins in India tell me that those tech center jobs, such as Dell Tech Support, are actually prestigious in India. Is a tech center job really considered a job to brag about, even though in the US tech support people aren't really admired, to say the least?

Interview Question: starting your own businesses by frankmanowar · 2004-02-09 05:27 · Score: 4, Interesting

There exists I think an assumption that the tech industry in India is a legion of coders being handed work from foreign companies, grunting it out for lower wages. Do Indian techs feel that they have the opportunity now to become the producers, the designers, the ones who create businesses? Frankafrank

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"Other bands play, but Manowar KILLS"

Questions to ask by Sharkus · 2004-02-09 05:27 · Score: 4, Interesting

Do you have a comparable quality of life to those in the US and UK? Does it bother you at all that you may be taking a job from a person in another country because you are working for what that other country considers a 'lesser' wage, but you consider a very good wage? Do you have any worries that this boom in outsourcing from the rest of the world may abruptly end, much like the dot.com boom ended, and if it does, what will you do then? how do you see India's econmy being effected by this? How much training and knowledge of programming do you have, what qualifications and such do you hold?

Re:Questions to ask by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-09 06:07 · Score: 1, Interesting

Does it bother you at all that you may be taking a job from a person in another country because you are working for what that other country considers a 'lesser' wage, but you consider a very good wage?

Given the costs of living, Americans can be cheaper to hire than some their European counterparts. Does taking jobs away from Europe by working for less bother you?

Why are so many Indians in American CS programs? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-09 05:28 · Score: 5, Interesting

My school's CS department was/is full of Indians. Do most of these students come here hoping to get jobs in America when they graduate or are they interested in going back to India and taking advantage of the outsourcing boom there? Are we as American technical workers shooting ourselves in the foot by helping to train our replacements in American academic institutions?

Reverse resentment? by grungebox · 2004-02-09 05:29 · Score: 3, Interesting

I know many Americans resent programming jobs going to India. A decade ago, did Indian engineers/programmers resent America for forcing them to leave to find jobs in a land far from home?

Re:Why are so many Indians in American CS programs by donnyspi · 2004-02-09 05:32 · Score: 2, Interesting

I took several certification tests on BrainBench.com. I noticed that many, many of the top 100 scorers on each test had Indian sounding names. Do BrainBench and similar certs mean anything in India?

For love or money? by GoofyBoy · 2004-02-09 05:35 · Score: 5, Interesting

There are many here who read slashdot who do computer stuff for the love of computers. They work on OpenSource projects for no money. In their spare time, they use a computer. Lots here, I would say, would be happy with half decent pay and just program all day long.

Do the majority do compter related employees do it for the money or for the love or working with computers?
If they were offered more money, would they switch in an instant?

--
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.

What is the standard of living like? by zzyzx · 2004-02-09 05:38 · Score: 5, Interesting

We hear conflicting reports from "$11,000 means you could live like a king" to "Material goods are so expensive there that you'd be much worse off there than here." What are conditions like for the average Indian programmer?

Re Labor Conditions by cluckshot · 2004-02-09 05:42 · Score: 1, Interesting

I would like to ask what sort of contract is usual and customary for employment there. What penalties do you suffer if you take work and then have to leave or choose to leave early?

What sort of Agency Fees are usual for taking work?

What Overtime, Sick leave and Vacation terms to you generally get?

What is your level of INCOME TAX on your wages? How much of your wages go to support the Elderly, Infirm etc (Social Security Type Taxes)

What sort of Retirement Benefits do you get?

Whad does your employer have to do if he lays you off or lets you go from employment?

How much does your country pay as a percentage of its Domestic Product to Defense Costs? How about Welfare/Social Benefits Costs?

When your kids go to school do you have to buy their School Books? Does the School System provide bus transport to school? Does your School System provide Internet Hookup for the kids?

What kind of National System do you have to support the Hurt and Injured Workers in your country? What level of care do they get? What kind of Pension do they get?

When floods or famine take an area, does your nation provide for the rebuilding of the homes and businesses? Are your rivers generally well controlled to avoid catastrophic flooding?

What is the condition of repair of your roads? How many miles(Km fine) of roads to you have paved in your country?

How much money does your government spend on Research and Development of new technology?

If someone reading this doesn't get the point about the great differences between the US and India they are blind. I will let the Indian answers speak for themselves generally. The simple fact is that if Americans chose open competition with India without trade barriers, they will find their system of retirement and benefits for the community essentially looted out by India. The reason is simple. India has 1% retirement load and no real system to handle it. The USA has 30% and an expensive System to handle it. To make the USA compete head to head here is like trying to run a foot race with a hot shot college kid when you are 45! It doesn't matter how good you were, you are not going to win against the young athlete.

The USA is in a Trade War, not with India but with a Government who is determined to sabotage the US Worker by forcing him to markup his labor more than 150% (a lot more than that but this is the first cut) while expecting him to hold his own against those who don't support either their own defense adequately or the social support of the USA. Sorry but it is true! The Trade War is by the US Congress against the American People. India is not to blame.

So I now go on to a few more questions

When you go to work and train to use the M$ tools on the job, how much do you pay for your access to software and updates? Americans pay about $2,000 a year!

How much do you pay for M$ latest XP version and .Net?

How much does a computer cost you to set up and begin learning to use it?

The point here~ is that M$ and others are setting these people up to compete against Americans selling them Software on their "market" prices rather than ours. We often pay as much in the USA as 10 times or more for the same tools

This is something we all need to be aware of because this is what is destroying the US Market. For Indians who think they are winning, they are not. When this ends up with the USA losing its IT business, India may have it but the money will not be there because the US Market will be damaged. It is not in the interest of India or the US what is going on

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Never Politically Correct ~ I prefer the facts If you don't like what I say, get a life, or comment yourself.

Outsourcing/Business Contacts by N8F8 · 2004-02-09 05:43 · Score: 1, Interesting

Where can American businessmen go to get good outsourcing contacts or contacts for Indians and Pakistanis interested with teaming up with Americans on business projects? On the web China seems the most accessible.

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"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power

free software in india... by kevin+lyda · 2004-02-09 05:44 · Score: 4, Interesting

every country has it's own free software projects (that they are either started or maintain or fund). the usa can point to the gnu project, finland to linux, ireland to spamassassin, germany to gpg, wales to kernel hacking and gnome bug hunting and translations, etc.

i think there's a lack of visability in english-speaking countries as to the contributions from non-english speaking countries. what free software projects are "indian" that those of us in the english speaking world might not be aware of?

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US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!

Language differences by jmckell · 2004-02-09 05:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

Several people have brought out cultural differences between the US and India. However, I would like to ask about language. Based upon my personal experiences with call centers and such, I am aware that this can be a problem.

Does learning US English present a problem, or is that just one more set of classes that must be taken?

Does the ability to speak US english set one apart (is it more valuable to an employer) from other employment candidates, or is that only for those who deal with North Americans?

Do non-english speakers have issues (like, dislike) with english speakers?

Is there a difference between learning US english and UK english, both? or does it matter?

How early does one begin to learn english as a second language? (The european model is to begin around the seventh, eighth year of schooling, I think...)

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---John McKell

Does it work? by mcmonkey · 2004-02-09 05:45 · Score: 5, Interesting

One of the arguments for free trade and the internationalization of companies and the work force is the raising of living standards around the world--the rising tide lifts all ships.

The argument against is that companies in the USA out-source and move off-shore to save money--increasing profits by paying less in wages and widening the gap between rich and poor.

From the USA it's pretty clear that whatever the intent, the result is the later. Ford doesn't build in China so Chinese workers can earn enough to buy Fords; Ford builds in China to make more profit on cars it sells in North America and Europe. (To be fair, the American worker complains about jobs moving over seas, then goes to WalMart and insists on $10 shirts and fresh tomatoes year round.)

So how do things look on the other side? Is the Indian standard of living raised by this influx of foreign work, or do companies pay just enough to be competitive to the existing standard and keep the benefits of free trade at the top?

New Indian Startup Companies by blueZhift · 2004-02-09 05:47 · Score: 4, Interesting

I'd like to know how long it will be before Indian tech professionals start forming startup companies to compete directly with their American corporate masters using what they have learned from them.

The Indians are not stupid. They know that it's just a matter of time before the tech jobs go to the next lowest bidder. And just as British imperial domination was thrown off, so will American corporate domination. The American companies that have rushed to offshore outsourcing would be wise not to underestimate the power of nationalism.

--
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started

Does the Indian 'caste' system affect your job ? by openSoar · 2004-02-09 05:47 · Score: 5, Interesting

From friends and colleagues I know a little bit about the caste system in India - both in terms of it's positive and negative discrimination so I wondered what sort of effect if any does this have on your work? For instance, a lot of software is developed in teams - are there sensitive issues to resolve if different members of the team are from different castes ?

Questions by Sanga · 2004-02-09 05:48 · Score: 3, Interesting

1) Do you (developer) find any communication problems with your customers? How much is the variance between your understanding and what the customer wants? What is the amount of face time/interaction do you have during the project?

2) What is the typical lifecycle of a project? Do you have some feedback system to improve quality and processes?

3) What are the hoops you have to jump through (SEI certifications and the lot) to prove your competence? Is it any use at the end of the day?

(more than one question posted since this isn't a traditional interview. And outsourcers should work 3 times harder, dammit!! :-) )

There is a bright side by heironymouscoward · 2004-02-09 05:49 · Score: 2, Interesting

This is not a question for the Indian techies but rather a comment about the many angry and distressed comments about outsourcing.

First, outsourcing is not new. Every great industry has been built on the ruins of another, somewhere else. Textiles, agriculture, automobiles, shipbuilding, steel,... we've always seen jobs move to where they cost less.

Secondly, although this always hurts those losing their jobs, it almost always brings much greater benefits back than those jobs would keep. Example: without the cheap Asian ships and cheap third-world sailors who man them, everything you buy would cost much more.

Thirdly, there is nothing quite as stimulating as the collapse of one industry to create new ones. Do you really wish you worked in a coal mine? Much of software production has become so routine and monotonous that it's the modern equivalent of industrial labour. There is a reason why these jobs can be done more cheaply, and it's only partly because the Indian workforce is cheap. It's also because the very jobs have become banal.

Consider China, the factory of the world, sending its goods to every country and region of the world. China, which is today the world's second largest importer of goods and services. Instead of trying to compete with a Chinese DVD player at $15, consider that Rolex sells more real solid gold $15,000 watches in China than in any other country.

The rise of the Indian technical support industry should be seen as a sign of hope: thousands, millions of new customers for the leading-edge products that you should be capable of designing and delivering.

Trade is not a pie that you slice and share. It's a reaction that needs constant movement to keep active and grow. Every new Indian job means new opportunities and jobs here in the US as well. It just takes imagination and drive to make it happen.

Well, I do have one question for our Indian colleagues: how do you feel about the bitching that most Westerners show when asked about Indian IT? I mean, presumably you studied hard and feel that you're allowed to compete fairly on an open market?

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Ceci n'est pas une signature

US dependence by Tablizer · 2004-02-09 05:50 · Score: 3, Interesting

Do you feel that your IT career depends too much on US companies and the US economy? Do you feel that your country's economic policies should instead focus on local business, local infrastructure, etc? Or, do you feel US dependence is part of the "growing process" that will lead later to more self-sufficiency?

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Table-ized A.I.

Education Costs by dachshund · 2004-02-09 05:50 · Score: 5, Interesting

More specifically:

How much does an Indian college education cost the typical student? Is it government subsidized, or are students expected to pick up the entire cost? And how does that cost compare to the average yearly salary of a college-educated technology worker (ie, how long does it take you to pay of college debt?)

Opportunities for Promotion by chromasoma · 2004-02-09 05:54 · Score: 4, Interesting

It seems as if I always hear of American management being exported to handle outsourced projects. What kind of opportunity for vertical mobility does that leave for Indian employees? Is there a "glass ceiling" that prevents you from reaching senior programmer, project manager or other leadership positions? Are all your supervisors and bosses Westerners or do some of you work for other native employees? Does this situation cause any resentment, and if so, have you considered or do you know of any that are planning becoming entrepreneurs? Lastly, what kind of resources are provided by Indian government to promote the growth of entrepreneurial business such as grants, loans or tax breaks?

Innovation by romman666_07920 · 2004-02-09 05:55 · Score: 3, Interesting

So far it would seem that the majority of IT work US companies have outsourced to India has focused on business support functions. The real innovation (product development, R&D) is still done in the US. Do you think Indian technology companies will try to be competitive in this area as well?

Re:Why are so many Indians in American CS programs by be-fan · 2004-02-09 05:55 · Score: 3, Interesting

Its a cultural thing. Indian culture glorifies engineering and math study. American popular culture actively discourages it. It makes perfect sense, thus, that there would be a higher percentage of Indians in engineering and CS.

--
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...

Resentment or Networking Opporunity? by yintercept · 2004-02-09 05:57 · Score: 3, Interesting

The international reaction to H1-B was the first question on my mind as well. How many people came back from the US with a great deal of resentment?

On the other hand, I suspect that a good number of people came back from the US with a black book full of contacts, a project or two and perhaps a little seed money.

Education? by tsvk · 2004-02-09 06:01 · Score: 3, Interesting

Can you give some info and pointers about the CS/IT/telecom education in India, especially at unversity level? I'm interested in how qualified the tech sector workers are in India.

How many people graduate from a (technical) university on an average? (As a fraction of all people born a certain year, for example.)
Does the government subsidize university-level education in any way, or is a degree only possible to attain only if you are rich enough? What does a M.Sc. or B.Sc. degree cost you?
What are the most prominent higher-level education universities in the technology sector? Homepage URLs? Do they specialize in any particular fields of technology?
What's the teaching like, compared to curriculums in Eurpoe or the US? Are certain subjects and fields emphasized more or less?
Are there any major differences in teaching methods? (lectures, homework, group projects, tuition by teaching assistants, etc.)
Are those Indians that have graduated abroad (say in the US) more respected than people who have graduated from an Indian university? That is, how well are foreign degrees appreciated within India?
What is the employment outlook and status in tech-sector jobs in India? Are many graduated engineers unemployed? Has the unemployment rate risen or fallen? What impact has the outsourcing of jobs to India had on the employment rates?

Simple question, but with an explanation: Why? by Andy+Smith · 2004-02-09 06:08 · Score: 2, Interesting

I passionately believe in racial equality and the global community, yet by posting this comment I fear I will be branded a racist. That is part of the problem. Foreign out-sourcing of tech jobs is difficult to discuss because there is always the possibility of genuine, objective criticisms being met with claims of racial prejudice.

I don't work in the tech sector but I have often dealt with Indian technicians who do technical support for a company that I am involved with. I have found the quality of their work to be consistently poor. Specifically:

1. Basic computer knowledge is lacking.

Worst example: A simple hardware problem (insufficient air circulation due to a blocked fan) was twice diagnosed as a software failure and the computer owner was instructed to back-up 40+ Gb of data on to CDRs, format his hard drive and reinstall XP. Remember, this happened *twice*. When the first reinstallation didn't fix the problem, he was told to do exactly the same thing again. (Obviously without the back-ups.)

2. Poor communications skills.

Not just poor English but fundamental communication failings, such as not listening properly and not making any apparent attempt to understand.

I was in a situation last year when an Indian tech support person decided that to disgnose a faulty hard-drive I must follow his instructions for dismantling my own PC. He wanted every component unplugged, removed, and then re-assembled. I tried to follow his instructions but he used left/right and front/back interchangeably, as if there were no difference in meaning, and after half an hour of nervously removing components I was starting to feel a bit out of my depth. If we went much further I wasn't confident that I'd be able to put everything back together so I stopped there. I re-assembled the PC and decided to buy a new hard-drive even though the faulty one was still under warranty.

So my question to Indian tech workers would be:

In my experience, over several years and dealing with dozens of different tech support people, I have found that Indian staff are significantly less knowledgeable, less helpful and overall less good at their jobs. With the obvious exception of cheaper labour, is there one single reason why Indian workers should have these jobs?

Code Monkeys v. Architect? by yintercept · 2004-02-09 06:11 · Score: 5, Interesting

Related to the experience question: Many US business pundits claim that the US is only outsourcing the low end code monkey and support jobs, and is keeping the higher end, more prestigeous "project management" and architect jobs in the US?

First, is this the case? or is India also excelling in architectural and design work?

If it is the case, is there a resentment for the imperialistic attitude in only giving India the low end projects?

Finally, in a land where there are real monkeys am I making a big cultural blunder by calling people "code monkeys"?

I have a personal question by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-09 06:13 · Score: 1, Interesting

What is the IT worker's lifestyle in India? They must be making about 20 times more money than the general populace... This would make them equivalent to high-flyers here in North America. Do they drive nice cars, eat at restaurants the whole time, and most importantly are they attracting pretty girls?

Re:How well/badly are Indian techies regarded ther by be-fan · 2004-02-09 06:13 · Score: 2, Interesting

In India, every mom wants their child to be a doctor or an engineer.

Not a stereotype: I've got a Bangladeshi mom :)

--
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...

Organised Crime by nhaflinger · 2004-02-09 06:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

Have you, or do you know of people who have been approached to gain unauthorized access to a company or provide corporate information for a fee?

If you where offered 3 times your normal annual salary to provide a copy of a database or other information from a US company would you do it?

Situations such as this are just now starting to come to light as illistrated in this article.

- Nicholas

Geek culture in India? by Experiment+626 · 2004-02-09 06:26 · Score: 4, Interesting

In the U.S., there is something of a geek subculture which Slashdot in particular caters to. Obviously, not all programmers are true geeks at heart, but among the people in America who are really fascinated by computers, you have a greatly disproportionate number who are into science fiction, RPGs/LARPs, Lord of the Rings, Legos, Anime, etc.

Does this apply in India as well? Would, say, a Unix systems programmer there typically have such things as interests? If not, are there analogous hobbies that distinguish the Indian geek from everyone else?

Re:Geek culture in India? by h1b_indian · 2004-02-09 07:10 · Score: 5, Interesting

Experiment_626, Let me attempt to answer this question for you. Education gets very high priority in India. Achievements for teenagers in India means academic achievements. Most Hindus are brought up worshipping the Goddess of learning. While this may mean nothing on the surface, it is my belief that subliminally, it gives importance to education by raising it to a divine level. Science and math fascinate a lot of kids. It is not a subculture. It is mainstream culture out in India. Pursuing science is the #1 choice. Liberal arts and commerce related streams get lower priority in India. Science and those pursuing science get a lot of respect. Consider this fact. When a radio channel in Britain conducted a poll to determine who the greatest Briton was, the British voted for Diana. Indians voted for Newton. I also see a lot of hostility everywhere in USA towards Indians. I feel sad for a lot of Americans but it is wrong to distinguish people by their race and brand them as people stealing jobs. For me, there is only one human race and I hope no individual has to suffer. I am dismayed to see that those who were extolling the virtues of free-market have suddenly decided that Stalinist ideas are the best! Such double standards are unacceptable.

Cheating in Indian Colleges? by DAldredge · 2004-02-09 06:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

Is cheating still widespread in Colleges in India? I ask this because in 2002 the GRE was canceled in that region due to very high levels of cheating.

Differentiating on price by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-09 06:31 · Score: 5, Interesting

I, for one, don't entertain illusions that the US companies would fall in love with our work and ignore cheaper alternatives if they present themselves. I don't think anyone else here does either!

supersam's got a good point. An associate of mine recently offshored his entire call center operations to the Phillipines. "Why not India?" I asked (after reading a recent /. thread about this topic).

His answer was that India was too expensive. The Phillipines apparently works at half of what he was being quoted for India contracts. Granted, the English is a bit better in India, but when price is king, India's better quality product didn't matter. (India... hope you've enjoyed your 15 minutes!)

Where does it go from here? Many are drooling over China's expansion into these markets. Indonesia would be tempting if it was a bit more stable politically. Whever it can be done cheaper, the business will go.

I did find it amusing in a previous /. India outsourcing thread, one poster from India praised his firm's CMM level 4 or 5 achievement and talked about how they were getting the business because of their quality efforts. It's a nice goal and it'll retain a couple of accounts, but to pretend for a moment that you're being used because of your quality is like a prostitute thinking she's appreciated for her intellectual qualities.

Hopefully the Corporate "Johns" out there doing the outsourcing (my associate included) will be able to recognize that their own customers assume quality is inherent in their products/services and when their call services, software, manufacturing, etc. is lacking these qualities, consumers will shop with their feet. Still, a visit to WalMart leads me to question whether consumers really care at all about quality. They won't pay for it, but may assume it's there regardless of price.

Re:Differentiating on price by cDarwin · 2004-02-09 07:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

Where does it go from here? Many are drooling over China's expansion into these markets. Indonesia would be tempting if it was a bit more stable politically. Whever it can be done cheaper, the business will go.

http://www.softghana.com/

--

--
Socrates was asked where he was from. He replied not "Athens," but "The world."
Re:Differentiating on price by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-10 01:38 · Score: 1, Interesting

I have to agree about Russia. My company hired some Russian outsourcers to do Perl programming. Not only were they far better Perl programmers than us, their development methodology was also lightyears ahead: they used a highly structured Extreme Programming style to develop things fast and well. Basically, they should have been employing us... as juniors!

Re:Numbers and figures. by cayenne8 · 2004-02-09 06:32 · Score: 2, Interesting

Wow...that annual salary wouldn't even pay my rent for 8 months....

:-(

--
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........

Customer Service by sirgoran · 2004-02-09 06:42 · Score: 4, Interesting

A lot of people have already mentioned these facts but I thought I'd put it in a different light.

In your work as a "contracted employee" do you feel that you are providing the best customer service given the fact that English may be a second language for you, and that there might be a language gap?

Also, since the U.S. has such a strict laws regarding the export of its software, that you might not have the same version of the software as the folks whose work you are doing, or the people that you are helping, do you feel that it might hamper your ability to provide the best customer service?

-Goran

--
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.

Price is King by yintercept · 2004-02-09 06:44 · Score: 2, Interesting

but when price is king

IMHO, it is not just price but the extent to which companies and governments will go to keep the price of their labor low. If it was just the free market at work, wages would raise, and all boats would rise together. Tieing large anchors to the labor force, will cause everyone dependent on wages to sink.

Re:Price is King by homer_ca · 2004-02-09 08:13 · Score: 3, Interesting

Just to give you some idea of how high our boat is, the US with about 5% of the world population consumes about 1/4 of the world's oil production. If you spread the wealth around without taking into account all boats rising, we'd all be living in third world squalor. If somehow everybody caught up to us overnight economically, it would be an environmental disaster, at least until the oil runs out which might be in 10 years instead of 100.

offshore interview fraud by lecca · 2004-02-09 06:51 · Score: 2, Interesting

Many of those left working for high-tech firms in the USA have had added to their job duties, doing phone interviews of new-hires in India. I have heard rumors that at companies such as Intel it is not uncommon for the indian interviewees to use fraudulent techneques, such as having their more advanced friends do the entire enterview for them. Most americans can't tell the difference, and end up hiring someone other than who they interviewed for the job. Is this a common practice? Have you heard of anyone doing this?

--
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" - George Orwell

Re:USA software worker makes 60,000 USA dollars by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-09 06:58 · Score: 5, Interesting

I was in India in 1999. Back when all this insantity started. I was invited through a friend I met on the internet who wanted to setup a web site farm in Mumbai. Of course I had NO idea it would come to this, But he set me up in a hotel in Goa, gave me SOME money, but not enough.

I hustled and got web site development jobs for the Goa Tourist industry, which was booming at the time.

Back then, the internet infrastructure was very primitive at best. Only ISP was the Indian Government's VSNL, and in Goa it was a joke. Even IF you could obtain a free dialup line (then, there were only 64 lines, and 300 internet cafe's competing for them).

The average Indian programmer was getting about $6,000 a year (1999), now I think it
s more like $15,000 and up.

Once word got out I was in Goa, many people flocked to me, but my Indian friend who initialy brought me over to india got all pissed off, because I took on more work without his approval. What could I do? I had to make money, and he wasn't supporting me anymore.

Anyway, India left a sort of "bad taste" in my mouth, not to mention that my body couldn't handle the food and I got sick all the time. Even though I lived in the tropics all my life, I thought I could deal with the Indian climate... BOY! I was wrong... Oppressivly hot in Feb and March, and constant rains in the monsoon season, I urge anyone considering moving to India to consider this.

One of the things my Indian friend pressed me on, was to train all his up-start programmers. At that time, I was a bit Naive, and eventually got fed up with the monsoons and left in July.

Anyway, this is MY experience in India.... I learned a lot (even picked up some Hindi).

VA's push for Outsourcing by NovaX · 2004-02-09 07:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

Do you find VA software a strategic partner in your outsourcing ("offshoring") efforts? Did you know that they were a "relatively early adopter" of providing services to aid in this task?

Do you find it amusing that they try to stir up emotions by posting offshoring stories on slashdot to increase ad revenue from those hit hardest from outsourcing? Many readers voice their hatred of the act and are infact boosting the revenue of a company whose survival rests on the increased move of jobs to foriegn countries.

Do you consider VA Software to be a respectable organization?

VA Software Provides Better Governance For Offshore Outsourcing
VA Software Uses Own 'Offshoring' Experience to Tune Flagship Product for Hot Growth Market

--

"Open Source?" - Press any key to continue

Yeah, except for the fact that... by IshanCaspian · 2004-02-09 07:05 · Score: 2, Interesting

..the US produced the computer industry as it exists today, and were it not for the dot-com boom, the web as we know it today would not exist. The only reason so many untrained people over here were able to make so much money was because there was an amazing revolution going on. Poor investing aside, no one can argue that the US has not created the modern computing industry as it exists today, and we have years of experience going back to the days of the mainframes. India, on the other hand, appears to have contributed precisely jack shit to all of this, and it's very understandable that they're going to want to want a piece of the pie now that they can just go buy a book and pirate a copy of windows XP and take advantage of the American computer revolution. The US should implement protectionist policies immediately, much like those India is implementing to keep US programmers from competing with Indian workers for their own jobs. Considering it was the US' commitment to education and entrepreneurship that created this world of technology, we have every right to introduce legislation to stop corporate greed from giving the benefit to others.

--

But there is another kind of evil that we must fear most... and that is the indifference of good men.

Re:Yeah, except for the fact that... by Saeed+al-Sahaf · 2004-02-09 08:02 · Score: 2, Interesting

"..the US produced the computer industry as it exists today, and were it not for the dot-com boom, the web as we know it today would not exist."
First, this statement has nothing to do with the subject, and is almost certainly a troll. Second, it represents a completely flawed US-centric view that that we "own" the Internet, and we "own" the right to a particular skill, and no one else should have it. For the most part, you are full of shit and have precisely the attitude that forces jobs to outsourcers.

--
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck

Re:Accents etc by rsidd · 2004-02-09 07:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

There are quite a few accents in America that are terribly hard to understand.

Actually there's only one accent in America (or so it seems to a foreigner), though indeed it's often hard to understand. It's amazing to me that there's less variation in accent coast-to-coast in the US than between two adjacent villages in England, let alone between a London Cockney and a Yorkshireman. (And England is where the language originated after all, so I don't see how anyone can claim that there's such a thing as a One True Accent.)

Re:Numbers and figures. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-09 08:29 · Score: 1, Interesting

how does his standard of living compare to that of the guy in the States. Is he living more or less the same lifestyle on that $8,000, or what?

While the comparison cannot be one on one, it is still a useful starting point to understand the key differences. Earning about $8000/year, the techie lives in a modest one/two-bedroom apartment (housing is the biggest concern in the IT business-dependent cities), drives a new compact-midsized car (Toyota, Hyundai, Ford...), eats out fairly regularly (cost of a good meal: 5-10 bucks, in swanky places), pays about 7 dollars/month on premium cable (including HBO but no porn, sorry), watches Return of the King in a good theater for about 5 dollars, he enjoys good health care at highly affordable rates...all these are directly comparable to our lifestyle here in the States.

So where does the dreaded "third-world" aspect come into the picture? It's in the infrastructure, the traffic congestion, the increasing lawlessness in many cities, the bureaucracy, the corruption at each and every level of the government and the worsening pollution situation in the big cities. These are things that cannot be compared or measured.

And oh yes, the $8000/year techie in India is lonely, horny and probably a big consumer of online porn :) That's really the only direct comparison with his counterpart in the US.

I agree and disagree with you by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-09 08:37 · Score: 1, Interesting

Thanks for your opinion. I certainly can't blame Indians for being upset with the US for backing Pakistan (this is coming from an American). It obviously is an arrangement of convenience for both sides.

I don't view religion conversion as evil though, so long as it is voluntary (unlike what some settlers did to Native Americans in the US 100-200 years ago). It certainly isn't evil like the suicide bombers' version of conversion (which is "You aren't a Muslim. You die."). I'd take people trying to convert me because they honestly care about me over people trying to blow me up any day.

Note: I know that all Muslims aren't like that, only a few fanatics. But show me where Christians or any other religious followers are blowing themselves up in the name of their faith for the purpose of killing people who presumably aren't of their faith. At worst with the Evangelical Christians is they'll nag you to death trying to get you to convert. Boy that sure is evil of them.

If you were an evangelical, then you would believe that nonbelievers are going to go to hell. Some other religions have similar views. However, evangelicals have the strong belief that it is their duty to try to convince others to have similar beliefs as themselves so that they won't go to hell. So you tell me which is more evil: Believing that others are going to hell and doing nothing to stop them; or believing that others are going to hell unless you do something to help them and actively doing something about it. I'm not an evangelical, but I can certainly understand their motives and recognize that it isn't evil. If a Muslim or Hindu were trying to convert me to their religion, I wouldn't view that as evil either.

PPS: Posting as A/C since this is off topic and would likely be moderated as flame bait, even though I'm simply expressing my opinions in nearly the most Politically Correct way that I can.

Re:I agree and disagree with you by Josuah · 2004-02-09 09:43 · Score: 3, Interesting

But show me where Christians or any other religious followers are blowing themselves up in the name of their faith for the purpose of killing people who presumably aren't of their faith.

Well, certain Christian groups will certainly kill people who they disagree with: see abortion clinic assassinations. From one viewpoint, this is even less respectable than suicide bombers, since you aren't willing to die for your beliefs.

I also don't think the suicide bombers are interested in converting anyone. Their objective is different, and so it doesn't make as much sense to compare it to the evanglistic efforts of Christians.

As well, historically Christians have done some horrible things that were sanctioned, encouraged, or even run by the Church. Of course, that's in the past, but I still have a severe lack of respect for the Catholic Church when they do not seem to regret or apologize for those things, and I would not trust the Church to put my interests ahead of their own.

Back to the evangelistic efforts, I don't think any religious organization has pushed themselves on others are hard as Christians. I don't remember anyone except Christians pretending to be my friend until it was clear I wasn't interested in converting. Or any Buddhist or Muslim religious flyers on my doorstep. Christians also seem to be the only ones telling me I'm going to burn in hell forever. Doesn't seem very nice of them.

Re:Hmm by yora · 2004-02-09 09:02 · Score: 2, Interesting

Well..

Reading /. at 2:30am from New Delhi!

It is quite popular nowadays. Esp among the usual /. target audience!

Are you making plans for a new customer base? by ciggieposeur · 2004-02-09 09:02 · Score: 2, Interesting

Everyone seems to assume that US-based corporations will always have the upper hand in deciding how to control the job market, i.e. the jobs may move but the owners remain American. I don't agree.

I believe that eventually the large American firms will run out of US dollars to pay for jobs after we reach double-digit unemployment and the US-dollar-paying customer base is unable to continue purchasing what are essentially "luxury" goods.

Do the Indian companies share my belief? If not, why not? If so, are they making any plans to survive the permanent collapse of the American firms?

Re:These new jobs of yours.. by aacool · 2004-02-09 09:06 · Score: 2, Interesting

moron - that's call centers only - tech jobs - coders, designers, etc can be called anything for all you care - Incidentally take a look at the developers of Adobe or any other project and try to spot the Indian-sounding names - not hard - there are so many.

Further, the call center workers use pseudonyms only because of the insular, cretinous American customers they service who think everyone should be named Bill, Harry or Jack

Re:Why are so many Indians in American CS programs by Josuah · 2004-02-09 09:46 · Score: 2, Interesting

Are we as American technical workers shooting ourselves in the foot by helping to train our replacements in American academic institutions?

Are we, as human beings, so selfish that we would rather ensure personal superiority over another through regulation and control rather than hard work?

Treatment to Americans? by moosesocks · 2004-02-09 10:32 · Score: 3, Interesting

How are immigrants from America / Europe treated? (With specific regard to race and religion)

Are they met with the same unfair prejudices we treat our immigrants with?

Apart from the language barrier, what are the biggest changes an American would need to make to his/her lifestyle if he were to move to India?

Finally, are there even many immigrants?

--
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose

Re:Hypocracy by Anonymous Coward · 2004-02-09 10:36 · Score: 1, Interesting

Hypocracy means hypocrisy?
ok i will bite

Its always painful to see people affected adversely by the big corporations and governments. For example , farmers in India were committing suicides so that their family gets compensation from the goverment instead of dying of hunger. Whereas some of the farmers in the US undercut the farmers in developing countries with the help of subsidies from the US govt. And they buy their next SUV or a new shiny Hummer. Why don't slashdotters discuss this? Because you are in no way personally affected by it or its benefitting you. Coke and Pepsi ran over the local soft drinks industry in India. Walmart is opening, McDee is already there. So is Subway. Hollywood films collect millions of US dollars in India thereby undermining the local film industry(to some extent). Most of the programmers are in it for the money whether in the US or in India. So it doesn't make a difference. For a change, the global companies are enriching a poor country.

Would you buy a made in US iBook for $15,000 or will you buy the one from Taiwan for $1000?
What abt $2000 for your shiny iPod? Why should the companies pay $70k for a US programmer if they can get roughly the same work for $20k ? Should they be forced to employ ppl in the US? How would you feel if you are forced to shell out $10,000 for your next PC?
You can't have the cake and eat it too. Even in the US.

Re:Why India? by h1b_indian · 2004-02-09 11:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

The difference is what constitutes education. In India, education is high on priority list. Indian civilization always stressed education as the noblest pursuit. In Islamic Pakistan and Bangladesh, they attend Madrasas and refuse to change. Note that Pakistan is a country set up solely because Muslims hated Hindus and refused to live peacefully in a pluralistic society. How can you expect fanatics to progress?

OTOH, in India, you have a tolerant and accomodative society with stress on education. Despite the backstabbing and violence, we indians are tolerant of other religious groups and our President is a Muslim.

In this culture, you will find poor Hindu children knocking on doors and begging for money in order to pay for their textbooks. They'll return next year with the previous year's report card.

You will find mothers starving to make sure that the kid gets a decent education. Movies which portray hard work in poor families usually show the protagonist studying late at night with a table lamp. That should tell you how indians view education.

When I went to school, there was only one thing on our minds. Compete with each other, do well and get admission into a brand name institute.

It was sheer bad luck that Jawaharlal Nehru became the first Prime Minister and chose the Stalinist model of economy and pushed us into poverty and desperation. The Nehru family (Nehru, his daughter Indira Gandhi and Indira's son, Rajiv gandhi were also Prime Ministers) is known as India's sorrow. The slow rate of growth due to the Nehruvian-Stalinist model is called Nehruvian Penalty.

Things are changing now with the Communists ejected out of academia and losing in the political arena. They have been reduced to whining from the sidelines abusing those of us who are for peace and free economy as "Hindu fascists" and "Hindu fundamentalists." They will be intellectually defeated.

Of course, this importance for learning has created an environment where Muslims and Christians too feel the peer pressure to succeed in education. So Indian Muslims and Christians are better than their Pakistani counterparts (Pakistan doesn't have Christians as it has killed them off.) Finally, I shouldn't take away credit from Muslim and Christian families. The tradition of giving importance to learning must have been handed down through the generations in their families too as their ancestors too were Hindus at some point of time.

Econ 101 by Minkey+Brines · 2004-02-09 16:42 · Score: 2, Interesting

You know, I'm one of those many IT people in the U.S. affected by the economic downturn and also probably by outsourcing. However, I just recently thought about it and have come to the conclusion that it's not a bad thing. Change is good. I like buying cheap products. If getting cheap IT workers means cheaper products, I'm all for it. I know that in the short term it means that my skills are worthless in this market, but that's just because I chose to paint myself into a corner and didn't diversify my skill set so I'd be ready when this eventually happened. This has happened with hardware in the past which is why I can get so much more bang for my PC-buying buck. America has been good at leading the technological way. If that's our niche, it's going to be tough but I and all those in the same boat as me will have to position ourselves in such a way as to be flexible enough to handle it. It's either that, or go communist. :-)

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