Slashdot Mirror
Ask Indian Techies About 'Onshore Insourcing'
This Slashdot interview has a little twist to it. Instead of using email, I'm going to relay your questions 'live' to people I meet while I'm here in New Delhi, speaking at LinuxAsia2004. Offshore outsourcing has gotten a lot of attention on Slashdot (and NewsForge) lately, but I figure that from this end we ought to call it 'onshore insourcing' instead. Feel free to ask other questions about 'geek life' in India, too; I'll ask as many questions as I can of as many people as I can, and post their answers when I'm back in the U.S.
Long before outsourcing to India became an issue, large IT companies like American Airlines were virtual H1-B "hardship" visa factories, importing large numbers of technical experts from India and other countries during the dot-com boom.
But when the boom went bust, and the layoffs came, H1-B visa holders were left out in the cold, unable to even look for a new job due to the terms of their visas.
Do the IT professionals you've met feel that US companies and the US government used bait-and-switch tactics to take advantage of cheaper non-US workers? Or did those applying for H1-B visas know what they were in for?
And a follow-up question: does anyone think that US companies will hesitate to leave their outsourcing partners high and dry as soon as they (again) find a cheaper alternative?
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Out of the $25 it costs my company to hire an India-based developer, how much does that developer see, and how much goes to the contracting agency (Wipro, etc...)?
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson
How much experience do most Indian programmers have? It seems to me that in ramping up from a few hundred to thosands of programmers over the past few years, most of these people must be fresh out of school... how much training do people need before they start producing reliable results?
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
American workers have certain legal protections that drive up the cost of our wages. Do Indians have similar protections in the workplace? Are you allowed to organize into unions? How long is your work week? What are your working conditions like? What kind of benifits do you have? Vacation? Medical? Dental? Profit sharing? Stock options? I find myself wondering, if the playing field were truly level, would your labor still be so inexpensive?
But this is slashdot. A slashdoter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber!
The most important question I would like to ask is "Is the picture there as rosy as painted by the media?"
From what I keep hearing, the scenario there right now is being compared to the tech boom here (in US) in the 90s. Is it true that "If you have a degree, immaterial of what degree, you can get a tech job."
Free XBox, PS2
How do you feel about competing on what I see as a non-competitive playing field? $11,000 per year is a good salary in India, but wouldn't allow me to live above poverty in any U.S city.
With one billion people in India, what is being done to increase the number of employable people? Granted, while we in the US may not like our jobs leaving, it must be helpful to Indians. What is being done to increase the employability of the average Indian?
libertarianswag.com
To what effect is the Indian education making changes to keep up with the demand for trained IT people?
With the influx of cash and availability of higher incomes (according to local standards), how'd Indian real estate market doing? What does it cost to rent a two-bedroom for the family? To buy a house?
Do you think that Indian IT boom will repeat Californian and Eastern European patterns, where availability of US dollars drove the living costs through the roof, thus making developers not a whole lot cheaper than hiring local American engineers?
Do you see the costs rising in Indian real estate market? What would be the monthly salary, according to your estimate, to have a comfortable living in India in 2004, and let's say, 2009?
What is the bigget contrast between work and daily life in terms of:
-Internet Connection
-Electrictiy
-Water
-Living Space size when compared to office size
Don't Tread on OpenSource
What does a decent 2 bedroom apartment cost per month?
How about food for 1 month?
Utilities, etc?
"The last thing I want to do is deal with a bunch of people who want something."
Major Major
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
How do you feel about the American programmers that are angry they lost their jobs to outsourcing? Do you think they have a right to be angry?
Is the attitude positive because of the increase in trade between us, negative because of cultural invasion, or a combination?
And I'm serious, don't just say "Oh, we love the West" if all you like is the outsourced job. I personally feel that trade is the best form of foreign aid, but I'd rather have an honest enemy than a ally who lies to me.
Call centre staff can earn more than teachers, police, nurses, etc - are those professions suffering as a result of the call centres picking out the English speakers?
Is this storing up problems for India's public sector in the future?
oh brave new world, that has such people in it!
This point has already been mentioned a bit by previous articles, but I'd like to hear an insider's take on it. The Indian tech economy is booming now, but like in the US, it's an unstable boom. Sooner or later, the US will look to other countries for their tech work, leaving India high and dry. What measures are being taken in India to maintain a strong internal tech economy, in the event that the US is no longer a serious customer?
---
"Every jumbled pile of person has a thinking part that wonders what the part that isn't thinking isn't thinking of"-TMBG
Totally off topic, but I've always wondered: is the character Apu Nahasapeemapetilon on The Simpsons insulting to Indian's? Do they even air The Simpsons there?
Some of my cousins in India tell me that those tech center jobs, such as Dell Tech Support, are actually prestigious in India. Is a tech center job really considered a job to brag about, even though in the US tech support people aren't really admired, to say the least?
There exists I think an assumption that the tech industry in India is a legion of coders being handed work from foreign companies, grunting it out for lower wages. Do Indian techs feel that they have the opportunity now to become the producers, the designers, the ones who create businesses? Frankafrank
"Other bands play, but Manowar KILLS"
Do you have a comparable quality of life to those in the US and UK? Does it bother you at all that you may be taking a job from a person in another country because you are working for what that other country considers a 'lesser' wage, but you consider a very good wage? Do you have any worries that this boom in outsourcing from the rest of the world may abruptly end, much like the dot.com boom ended, and if it does, what will you do then? how do you see India's econmy being effected by this? How much training and knowledge of programming do you have, what qualifications and such do you hold?
My school's CS department was/is full of Indians. Do most of these students come here hoping to get jobs in America when they graduate or are they interested in going back to India and taking advantage of the outsourcing boom there? Are we as American technical workers shooting ourselves in the foot by helping to train our replacements in American academic institutions?
I know many Americans resent programming jobs going to India. A decade ago, did Indian engineers/programmers resent America for forcing them to leave to find jobs in a land far from home?
There are many here who read slashdot who do computer stuff for the love of computers. They work on OpenSource projects for no money. In their spare time, they use a computer. Lots here, I would say, would be happy with half decent pay and just program all day long.
Do the majority do compter related employees do it for the money or for the love or working with computers?
If they were offered more money, would they switch in an instant?
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
We hear conflicting reports from "$11,000 means you could live like a king" to "Material goods are so expensive there that you'd be much worse off there than here." What are conditions like for the average Indian programmer?
every country has it's own free software projects (that they are either started or maintain or fund). the usa can point to the gnu project, finland to linux, ireland to spamassassin, germany to gpg, wales to kernel hacking and gnome bug hunting and translations, etc.
i think there's a lack of visability in english-speaking countries as to the contributions from non-english speaking countries. what free software projects are "indian" that those of us in the english speaking world might not be aware of?
US Citizen living abroad? Register to vote!
One of the arguments for free trade and the internationalization of companies and the work force is the raising of living standards around the world--the rising tide lifts all ships.
The argument against is that companies in the USA out-source and move off-shore to save money--increasing profits by paying less in wages and widening the gap between rich and poor.
From the USA it's pretty clear that whatever the intent, the result is the later. Ford doesn't build in China so Chinese workers can earn enough to buy Fords; Ford builds in China to make more profit on cars it sells in North America and Europe. (To be fair, the American worker complains about jobs moving over seas, then goes to WalMart and insists on $10 shirts and fresh tomatoes year round.)
So how do things look on the other side? Is the Indian standard of living raised by this influx of foreign work, or do companies pay just enough to be competitive to the existing standard and keep the benefits of free trade at the top?
I'd like to know how long it will be before Indian tech professionals start forming startup companies to compete directly with their American corporate masters using what they have learned from them.
The Indians are not stupid. They know that it's just a matter of time before the tech jobs go to the next lowest bidder. And just as British imperial domination was thrown off, so will American corporate domination. The American companies that have rushed to offshore outsourcing would be wise not to underestimate the power of nationalism.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
From friends and colleagues I know a little bit about the caste system in India - both in terms of it's positive and negative discrimination so I wondered what sort of effect if any does this have on your work? For instance, a lot of software is developed in teams - are there sensitive issues to resolve if different members of the team are from different castes ?
1) Do you (developer) find any communication problems with your customers? How much is the variance between your understanding and what the customer wants? What is the amount of face time/interaction do you have during the project?
:-) )
2) What is the typical lifecycle of a project? Do you have some feedback system to improve quality and processes?
3) What are the hoops you have to jump through (SEI certifications and the lot) to prove your competence? Is it any use at the end of the day?
(more than one question posted since this isn't a traditional interview. And outsourcers should work 3 times harder, dammit!!
Do you feel that your IT career depends too much on US companies and the US economy? Do you feel that your country's economic policies should instead focus on local business, local infrastructure, etc? Or, do you feel US dependence is part of the "growing process" that will lead later to more self-sufficiency?
Table-ized A.I.
How much does an Indian college education cost the typical student? Is it government subsidized, or are students expected to pick up the entire cost? And how does that cost compare to the average yearly salary of a college-educated technology worker (ie, how long does it take you to pay of college debt?)
It seems as if I always hear of American management being exported to handle outsourced projects. What kind of opportunity for vertical mobility does that leave for Indian employees? Is there a "glass ceiling" that prevents you from reaching senior programmer, project manager or other leadership positions? Are all your supervisors and bosses Westerners or do some of you work for other native employees? Does this situation cause any resentment, and if so, have you considered or do you know of any that are planning becoming entrepreneurs? Lastly, what kind of resources are provided by Indian government to promote the growth of entrepreneurial business such as grants, loans or tax breaks?
So far it would seem that the majority of IT work US companies have outsourced to India has focused on business support functions. The real innovation (product development, R&D) is still done in the US. Do you think Indian technology companies will try to be competitive in this area as well?
Its a cultural thing. Indian culture glorifies engineering and math study. American popular culture actively discourages it. It makes perfect sense, thus, that there would be a higher percentage of Indians in engineering and CS.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The international reaction to H1-B was the first question on my mind as well. How many people came back from the US with a great deal of resentment?
On the other hand, I suspect that a good number of people came back from the US with a black book full of contacts, a project or two and perhaps a little seed money.
Can you give some info and pointers about the CS/IT/telecom education in India, especially at unversity level? I'm interested in how qualified the tech sector workers are in India.
Related to the experience question: Many US business pundits claim that the US is only outsourcing the low end code monkey and support jobs, and is keeping the higher end, more prestigeous "project management" and architect jobs in the US?
First, is this the case? or is India also excelling in architectural and design work?
If it is the case, is there a resentment for the imperialistic attitude in only giving India the low end projects?
Finally, in a land where there are real monkeys am I making a big cultural blunder by calling people "code monkeys"?
Have you, or do you know of people who have been approached to gain unauthorized access to a company or provide corporate information for a fee?
If you where offered 3 times your normal annual salary to provide a copy of a database or other information from a US company would you do it?
Situations such as this are just now starting to come to light as illistrated in this article.
- Nicholas
In the U.S., there is something of a geek subculture which Slashdot in particular caters to. Obviously, not all programmers are true geeks at heart, but among the people in America who are really fascinated by computers, you have a greatly disproportionate number who are into science fiction, RPGs/LARPs, Lord of the Rings, Legos, Anime, etc.
Does this apply in India as well? Would, say, a Unix systems programmer there typically have such things as interests? If not, are there analogous hobbies that distinguish the Indian geek from everyone else?
I, for one, don't entertain illusions that the US companies would fall in love with our work and ignore cheaper alternatives if they present themselves. I don't think anyone else here does either!
/. thread about this topic).
/. India outsourcing thread, one poster from India praised his firm's CMM level 4 or 5 achievement and talked about how they were getting the business because of their quality efforts. It's a nice goal and it'll retain a couple of accounts, but to pretend for a moment that you're being used because of your quality is like a prostitute thinking she's appreciated for her intellectual qualities.
supersam's got a good point. An associate of mine recently offshored his entire call center operations to the Phillipines. "Why not India?" I asked (after reading a recent
His answer was that India was too expensive. The Phillipines apparently works at half of what he was being quoted for India contracts. Granted, the English is a bit better in India, but when price is king, India's better quality product didn't matter. (India... hope you've enjoyed your 15 minutes!)
Where does it go from here? Many are drooling over China's expansion into these markets. Indonesia would be tempting if it was a bit more stable politically. Whever it can be done cheaper, the business will go.
I did find it amusing in a previous
Hopefully the Corporate "Johns" out there doing the outsourcing (my associate included) will be able to recognize that their own customers assume quality is inherent in their products/services and when their call services, software, manufacturing, etc. is lacking these qualities, consumers will shop with their feet. Still, a visit to WalMart leads me to question whether consumers really care at all about quality. They won't pay for it, but may assume it's there regardless of price.
A lot of people have already mentioned these facts but I thought I'd put it in a different light.
In your work as a "contracted employee" do you feel that you are providing the best customer service given the fact that English may be a second language for you, and that there might be a language gap?
Also, since the U.S. has such a strict laws regarding the export of its software, that you might not have the same version of the software as the folks whose work you are doing, or the people that you are helping, do you feel that it might hamper your ability to provide the best customer service?
-Goran
Carpe Scrotum - The only way to deal with your competition.
I was in India in 1999. Back when all this insantity started. I was invited through a friend I met on the internet who wanted to setup a web site farm in Mumbai. Of course I had NO idea it would come to this, But he set me up in a hotel in Goa, gave me SOME money, but not enough.
I hustled and got web site development jobs for the Goa Tourist industry, which was booming at the time.
Back then, the internet infrastructure was very primitive at best. Only ISP was the Indian Government's VSNL, and in Goa it was a joke. Even IF you could obtain a free dialup line (then, there were only 64 lines, and 300 internet cafe's competing for them).
The average Indian programmer was getting about $6,000 a year (1999), now I think it
s more like $15,000 and up.
Once word got out I was in Goa, many people flocked to me, but my Indian friend who initialy brought me over to india got all pissed off, because I took on more work without his approval. What could I do? I had to make money, and he wasn't supporting me anymore.
Anyway, India left a sort of "bad taste" in my mouth, not to mention that my body couldn't handle the food and I got sick all the time. Even though I lived in the tropics all my life, I thought I could deal with the Indian climate... BOY! I was wrong... Oppressivly hot in Feb and March, and constant rains in the monsoon season, I urge anyone considering moving to India to consider this.
One of the things my Indian friend pressed me on, was to train all his up-start programmers. At that time, I was a bit Naive, and eventually got fed up with the monsoons and left in July.
Anyway, this is MY experience in India.... I learned a lot (even picked up some Hindi).
Just to give you some idea of how high our boat is, the US with about 5% of the world population consumes about 1/4 of the world's oil production. If you spread the wealth around without taking into account all boats rising, we'd all be living in third world squalor. If somehow everybody caught up to us overnight economically, it would be an environmental disaster, at least until the oil runs out which might be in 10 years instead of 100.
But show me where Christians or any other religious followers are blowing themselves up in the name of their faith for the purpose of killing people who presumably aren't of their faith.
Well, certain Christian groups will certainly kill people who they disagree with: see abortion clinic assassinations. From one viewpoint, this is even less respectable than suicide bombers, since you aren't willing to die for your beliefs.
I also don't think the suicide bombers are interested in converting anyone. Their objective is different, and so it doesn't make as much sense to compare it to the evanglistic efforts of Christians.
As well, historically Christians have done some horrible things that were sanctioned, encouraged, or even run by the Church. Of course, that's in the past, but I still have a severe lack of respect for the Catholic Church when they do not seem to regret or apologize for those things, and I would not trust the Church to put my interests ahead of their own.
Back to the evangelistic efforts, I don't think any religious organization has pushed themselves on others are hard as Christians. I don't remember anyone except Christians pretending to be my friend until it was clear I wasn't interested in converting. Or any Buddhist or Muslim religious flyers on my doorstep. Christians also seem to be the only ones telling me I'm going to burn in hell forever. Doesn't seem very nice of them.
How are immigrants from America / Europe treated? (With specific regard to race and religion)
Are they met with the same unfair prejudices we treat our immigrants with?
Apart from the language barrier, what are the biggest changes an American would need to make to his/her lifestyle if he were to move to India?
Finally, are there even many immigrants?
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose