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Palm Changing OS Strategy

Posted by CowboyNeal on from the shaking-things-up dept.

profet writes "CNET.com is reporting that PalmSource plans to change its OS plans and simultaneously develop/release OS 6 and continue development on OS 5. The names shall be changed to reflect that they are both current. The plan is to have OS 5 for low end devices ($100 price point is a goal), and OS 6 for high end devices. This is a drastic change from their current practice of having one current OS drastically customized (read: hacked) to suit the manufacturer's needs. It looks like PalmSource is aiming directly at Symbian's success with Nokia's series 60 platform."

56 of 213 comments (clear)

  1. What's not mentioned by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Is that under the plan, the company will simultaneously develop multiple versions of its OS and aim them at different parts of the cell phone market. With OS 5, PalmSource was focused primarily on making a hardware transition.

    1. Re:What's not mentioned by t0ny · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It looks like PalmSource is aiming directly at Symbian's success with Nokia's series 60 platform

      Looks more like PalmSource is aiming at finally doing something besides losing money and market share.

      With all the buzz surrounding their product, PalmOS could have been the one OS to rule them all (all the small devices, that is). Instead, they waited until tons of other people made the kinds of moves they should have been making (handspring especially).

      Speaking of Handspring, if I were them I would have flipped off Palm and purchased the PalmOS after they spun it off into its own company. Why they need Palm (and more importantly, its bumbling executives) weighing them down is something I cant figure out.

      --

      Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

    2. Re:What's not mentioned by panoplos · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And this is just the type of product segregation they don't need.

      In fact, Symbian already went this route with their, now defunct, DFRD roadmaps, targeting various form factors for handhelds. They determined that they themselves were not capable of resourcing the R&D necessary to meet the specific needs of their Licensees and soon ran out of funding: they concluded that it is even presumptuous to suppose one could even truly understand what these needs are!

      It is a disastrous business model to assume it your responsibility to innovate and steer a market segment that you really have a very limited scope of influence in.

      Some things are best left to the experts...

  2. Where have I heard all this before? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    PalmOS 3.1 is for desktops.
    PalmOS 3.11 for Workgroups is for small networks.
    PalmOS NT is the server platform.
    PalmOS 95 *is* *the* upgrade for PalmOS 3.1.

    This is gonna end in tears...

    1. Re:Where have I heard all this before? by I+Be+Hatin' · · Score: 5, Funny
      This is gonna end in tears...

      Hmmm...

      Palm 98 is just like Palm 95, except it doesn't crash as much.
      Palm 2000 is the first stable palm.
      Palm XP is the Palm Experience... something most Slashdotters are already familiar with.

      --
      I know god exists. I read it on the internet, so it must be true.
    2. Re:Where have I heard all this before? by mattjb0010 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah, let's not talk about Palm ME :)

    3. Re:Where have I heard all this before? by laird · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Strech the Palm OS concept to a tiny cell phone screen that doesn't even have a touch screen, all the benefits and reasons that design choices were made break down."

      I don't think that they're trying to cover quite that broad a range. The sense I get is that they're intending for PalmOS 5 to run on the class of machines it already runs on (ARM processor, 160x160 pixel or larger touchscreen, 8 MB or more of RAM, perhaps an SD slot), which they project will drop in price over time. PalmOS 6 will run on more muscular hardware (larger touchscreen, more RAM, faster CPU, SD slot) and provide richer multimedia and multitasking capabilities. So it's not so much for this year's cell phones as perhaps set top boxes, G3 cell phones, or high-end PDA's or tablet computers.

      It's not clear (to me, at least) how much of a fundamental difference there is between PalmOS 5 and 6. So it's hard to say if it's essentially the same OS with more frameworks (like NT vs. NT Server) or a real forking (like Win95 vs. NT). Perhaps someone with some inside info could comment?

      --
      Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
    4. Re:Where have I heard all this before? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The difference between PalmOS 5 vs. 6 is similar to Windows 95 vs. NT and MacOS 9 vs. X. Basically it's the transition to a real protected-memory OS, requiring a new underlying system architecture. So, similar to the Windows and MacOS transitions, PalmOS 6 is a completely new operating system, with a compatibility layer to provide the same APIs as on previous versions of the OS and maintain application compatibility.

    5. Re:Where have I heard all this before? by ajagci · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Basically it's the transition to a real protected-memory OS, requiring a new underlying system architecture.

      How "real" of an OS PalmOS 6 ends up being remains to be seen. From what I have heard so far, it still falls short in many areas. Unfortunately, it looks like Palm is going to try to prolong the pain by giving us multiple, wildly incompatible upgrades before reaching some reasonable, stable point.

  3. linux PDA? by axxackall · · Score: 4, Interesting
    If all I need is just a PIM (calendaring, contacts, notes, money, short messages), then what would be the reason to choose PalmOS vs Linux on PDA?

    Anyone with some experience with both? I used Palm Vx with Palm OS 3 and found it too buggy. I saw ads about Zaurus and found it interesting. I am really close to get Linux PDA. But before I cash out, is there anyone here who found a reason to migrate from Linux PDA to Palm OS?

    --

    Less is more !
    1. Re:linux PDA? by AnonymousCowheart · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Ive owned both the zaurus and a few palms, the newest model i have being the palm m500. While the zaurus is a great toy, palm "just works." the damn thing is fast, rarely (about 5times a year, due to bad software) crashes, and even then, it takes like a 30second reset.
      The zaurus however, does Much more, wireless, mp3 player, video player, etc. however as far as a PIM goes, you just can't beat palms ease of use, and speed. Especially graffitti, works great. Not to bash the zaurus, but i found myself 'setting it up' (see playing, trying to figure things out) more than being productive
      in the end, i use the b&w palm, why? besides the above notes, the batteries last MUCH longer in it then any color screen would. Nothing fancy, just a PIM, like you asked for;)

    2. Re:linux PDA? by bwy · · Score: 5, Informative

      I have owned a Zaurus and a Sony Clie (Palm OS 4). They are two different beasts. The Clie is a great address book, calendar, etc. and has good desktop software that I like since i refuse to use Outlook for calendaring. It is a small device and great at the traditional PDA functions. Synching is very refined and works well with XP and OS X 10.3 using iSync. I can sync right to Address Book and iCal.

      The Zaurus was excellent at web browsing, hacking, running Java, running a real pop3 mail client, etc. Plug in a cheap WiFi CF card and you are good to go. But here is the thing. It is horrible at calendaring, synching, etc. The desktop software is pathetic. You almost certainly have to consider the Zaurus a very small linux based PC that stands by itself and forget about the desktop integration part.

      All that being said, I sold the Zaurus on E-Bay recently and kept the Clie. The Zaurus is by far the best "toy". However, having a handheld Internet connected device wasn't that useful (for me, anway) especially since I own a 12 inch iBook. Having a list of important phone numbers and my calendar with me at all times and available instantly is important though and Palm devices do that very well.

      Depending on what you want and need, the Zaurus might be a great choice. I had no complaints. It was stable and overall really cool. There is just something cool about using a handheld as a web server. (but then you inevitably end up asking "WHY"!)

    3. Re:linux PDA? by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Palm "just works"? Man, you must have REALLY low expectations. My Tungsten T2 has given me more trouble in six months than my Newton MP2100 has in a decade. The Palm syncronisation system is complete and utter crap, the notion of a PalmOS application is an absolute fantasy, with most remotely cutting edge apps being pretty much machine specific and - worst of all - when it decides to freak and lock up, the only way to get it going again is a long charge followed by a hard reset, which kills all of your data and leaves you reliant on the utterly broken backup/sync system to get you going again.. PalmOS isn't really a playform at all, it's an embedded OS.

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    4. Re:linux PDA? by zulux · · Score: 4, Insightful



      If all you need is a PIM - Palm is definatly the way to go.

      I *love* my Zaurus 700 series- it's fun to SSH into a server with 80x24 characters and a real keyboard , but for PIM stuff, it's slow and clunky.

      --

      Moneyed corporations, non-working 'poor' and criminal prisoners are turning productive citizens into tax-slaves.

    5. Re:linux PDA? by Stalus · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've had a Tungsten T for about a year now, and I've been very happy with it. For day to day things, I mostly use the standard aps, but I also use it occasionally as an mp3 player, HP48GX emulator (faster than my real version), and with my bluetooth phone I can check e-mail and look up stuff on the web, chat on ICQ, etc. I have a couple other random aps on there that are useful too.

      I had a Treo 300 for a brief stint and it locked up like crazy, and I understand what you mean about that driving you nuts. But with the Tungsten T I think I had one hard lockup, and two sudden reboots, and I've never lost any data. Because of that, I only synch about once every two weeks, and the battery life has been good enough that I generally only remember to charge it about once a week.

      I think Palm's problem is that almost every Palm-powered device has a different version of their OS, so there's a little bit of hit and miss. For example, the Treo300 had a version tweaked by Handspring specifically for that device. There seem to be more problems with the devices not sold by Palm, since most of those can't upgrade the OS. You might check their website for updates - they did have some for the Tungsten T to fix an audio level problem for mp3 playback.

      And a mention for my problem with the other option - the pocket PC. I have yet to see one with a vibrating alarm, which just astounds me. I usually leave everything on vibrate to avoid having it be disruptive during meetings, movies, classes, etc.

    6. Re:linux PDA? by akac · · Score: 2, Informative

      QUite a few Pocket PCs have a vibrating alarm. My XDA II does.

  4. Linux on Palm by armando_wall · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Alternatives to PalmOS, anyone?

    Has anyone tried LinuxDA? It sounds like an interesting alternative, even being a commercial product.

  5. 100 bucks for Palm device? by cgenman · · Score: 2, Informative

    Nope. That's for the whole device, like the 79 dollar Zire.

    --
    The ______ Agenda
  6. Cool, erm... by Ravensign · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I thought this was a really cool article, then I realized its not 1998.

    Does Palm have any kind of momentum at all anymore?

    --
    "Sig free in '03!"
    1. Re:Cool, erm... by Ralph+Wiggam · · Score: 4, Funny

      Does downward momentum count? If it does, then yes.

      -B

    2. Re:Cool, erm... by Kenja · · Score: 3, Funny

      Are you kidding? Palm is kicking the Apple Newtons ass! I hear Microsoft is working on a product to try and compete, but I doubt anything will come of it.

      --

      "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
  7. Naming suggestions by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    how about "Palm OS Full-Speed" and "Palm OS Hi-Speed"?

  8. Re:100 bucks for Palm OS? by certsoft · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Seems to me there should be a moderation option of "Incorrect". About all you can do now is moderate it as "Overrated".

  9. Uh, I think you have it backward... by WIAKywbfatw · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If all I need is just a PIM (calendaring, contacts, notes, money, short messages), then what would be the reason to choose PalmOS vs Linux on PDA?

    If all you need is just a PIM (calendaring, contacts, notes, money, short messages), then why would you ever consider choosing a Linus over PalmOS on a PDA?

    PalmOS is built for the job, fast enough to do what you want (and more), power efficient, etc.

    Stop looking for a sledgehammer to crack a nut and give serious consideration to a Zire or Tungsten. Which one is best for you depends on how honest you are when you say you're looking for "just a PIM".

    --

    "Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
    1. Re:Uh, I think you have it backward... by lpret · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I was going to mod you down, but decided to debate this instead. What PalmOS are you running? I've been using Palm since the Palm IIIx, and I've never had it crash on me outside of poorly designed software. You said you needed a hard reset -- for what? A soft reset should be just fine for any crashes that occur -- the only hard reset I've ever had to do is when I screwed up upgrading the OS.

      There's a reason why most industrial PDAs are Palm based. It's very solid. It may not look like mini-windows (like Pocket PC) but it's fast, solid, and just works.

      --
      This is my digital signature. 10011011001
    2. Re:Uh, I think you have it backward... by axxackall · · Score: 3, Informative

      Hard reset has been usually required when soft rest did not work, and that usuall happened when I used too many categories while too many primary records. The OS was 3.3 or something like that.

      --

      Less is more !
  10. As a BeOS fan by That's+Unpossible! · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have high hopes for PalmOS 6. Combine guys that created a great OS with some of the minds that created a great handheld, and ... my fingers are crossed. Does anyone have any details on v6.0? Screenshots? Technical specs?

    I envision a white device with yellow borders... ummm.

    --
    Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
  11. Palm is losing their niche by mnmn · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Palm OS is the OS for low-end devices with simple functions which do not require the headache of viruses/spyware/BSOD etc, and which do simple monotasking applications on budget ram and flash and no MMU.

    Try to overdevelop Palm OS into a GUI layers, multitasking, and other higher end stuff, and youre directly competing with Linux, QNX, BSD and BeOS (maybe they plan to merge their BeOS with Palm on higher end). They should not want that. Linux with the community backing, applications, tools, hackibility etc will win hands down and we'll see people buying Dell machines, replacing Windows XP with Linux, getting the free PDA and replacing its PalmOS with Linux + XFree86 and its tools.

    I think Palm should try to remain as simple as PalmOS 3.5 or 4.0 and instead focus more on applications. The OS should be developed to deal with more hardware, make easy-to-use SDKs to gather applications from the community and to handle nice themes. Thats all. Pretty soon someone will shrink x86 to palm size and make it consume power as little as the ARM720T, and Microsoft will rush to modify Windows XP for it, and people will just replace that with Linux. Palm will then have to rely solely on their lower end OS on even smaller devices.

    --
    "Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
    1. Re:Palm is losing their niche by GarfBond · · Score: 5, Informative

      You have absolutely no idea what a palm device is used for. On a palm device, you *do not* load Windows XP on it. These are items with around 400MHz Intel XScale and around 32-64MB of memory.

      PalmOS is for palm-sized devices (e.g. ORGANIZERS) that have very little flexibility as far as data loss, convenience, and user-friendliness. No user wants to open up a console and mess with XF86 settings to try and get their organizer working right in the middle of a meeting.

      Part of the reason Palm is still popular is because of the fundamental design decisions made with the OS. Which is to be, above all, a damn good organizer. Part of what Palm realized (and what Apple hadn't yet with the Newton) is that user requirements for an organizer is significantly different from a computer. Users expect it to work just as well as their wristwatch. A great article to read on this is the "Zen of Palm" (http://www.palmos.com/dev/support/docs/zenofpalm/ ZenTOC.html)

      In the handheld market, Palm is competing with PocketPC (or as it's less affectionately known, Windows Mobile-based Pocket PC) and to a very much lesser extent, Linux on the Zaurus.

      In the phone market, Palm is competing yet again with Windows and then Symbian. And this division of markets is why they're concurrently developing OS 5 and 6.

      And, for your information, PalmSource owns Be. Part of the whole point of OS6 is that Be engineers are putting significant efforts into it.

  12. Yellow Tab has a version of BeOS. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Yellow Tab has a version of BeOS called "Zeta".

    I think the story is that they could licence everything but the name. There's an awesome preview up on Zeta Journal.

    And there are also the two open clones in the works: Blue-Eyed OS (by building BeOS-workalike bits on top of Linux) and OpenBeOS (a from-the-ground-up reimplementation of BeOS)..

  13. Where have I heard this before? by teamhasnoi · · Score: 2, Funny
    I really think that Palm should drop support for their embedded OS and focus on a Desktop OS, that they can give away for free and compete with Microsoft for bootmanager rights on OEM desktops.

    What could go wrong?

  14. With the competition from PowerPC devices . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
    . . . I'm wonder what the next chapter in Palm's history will be. Chapter 7? Or 11?

    ~~~

  15. Gadget lust and price points by Grrr · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I want to root for Palm. Really.

    Even broke down and bought a used IIIXE... which died a month later. I know there is much newer tech out there now, and geeky individual buyers are not the preferred target market. I could probably get this doorstop fixed - but my cell phone and Blackberry are covering the basic PIM and game bases.

    And I've never had to reboot the piece of paper in my wallet with all the phone numbers on it. Even a phone with an OS of any complexity makes me nervous. Again, I know they don't care about incidental sales...

    This is a toy I would like to be able to con myself into "needing" -but at $300-$400 and formidable network access charges, it isn't that inconvenient to check e-mail with the cell phone or haul the laptop around.

    While there many not be many people with the same mindset, I wonder if a $100 price point (for a device with some expansion capabilities) wouldn't get people like me off the fence.

    <grrr>

  16. Re:BeOS by mabhatter654 · · Score: 2, Informative
    Well that's part of the issue. much of the BeOS tech would work very nice on higher end palms, but that requires a major overhaul to the software that would leave lower spec units in the dust. Palm bought the IP and hired many of the engineers. The BeOS tech would reduce the need for companies like Sony to hack the PalmOS like they have been by creating a more full featured base...also if they followed the modular model of Be it had a much more "graceful" model of providing clean seperation of OS components...It was Very Un-Microsoft. If a company wanted to extend just one aspect, it's much easier with the BeOS structure.

    Remember, they bought the tech...I doubt any actual BeOS code would be in Palm6...but I'd bet it "looks" like BeOS under the hood!

  17. What I've Gathered by Eideteker · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Palm OS 6, according to palminfocenter.com, is basically redesigned from the ground up to embrace wireless networking. Palm OS 5 is staying because, quite honestly, it works. I never owned an earlier generation PDA, but I swear by my T3. I haven't experienced any of the bugs I hear about from OS 3 users.

    Plus, it doubles as my mp3 player to take to work in the morning (with the addition of a handy SD Cruzer drive) and it impresses the heck out of people.

    --
    sic
  18. Developers, developers, developers, developers by Imperator · · Score: 4, Insightful

    PalmSource has made a mess of the platform from a developer's perspective. It used to be that all Palm OS systems were more or less the same--slow 68k processor, very small address space, small 160x160 monochrome touch screen. As the technology moved down in price, Palm OS systems started to get improvements like faster ARM processors (endian change!), more memory, and high resolution color screens. The problems are several:

    • The hardware became too varied. Palm OS form resources use absolute positioning, so it's not easy designing a form for different screen resolutions. Having multiple copies of each form is a pain in the ass, both when creating the forms and when writing the code.
    • The APIs became fragmented. Until recently, every device manufacturer with a resolution above 160x160 (or a collapsable input area) had its own API. Some developers of 3rd party apps go out of their way to support all of these--but most just support none.
    • The development tools became too complicated. POSE was great, but now every device seems to requires its own emulator or simulator. Not every simulator makes it to every development platform. It becomes a pain in the ass to test for all the devices out there.
    • Backwards compatibility was either overpursued or underpersued. For the former, consider sysAppLaunchCmdFind. Find is enormously painful to support--no globals, no exceptions, etc. But with the amount of memory in today's machines, there's no reason this launch code can't be accompanied by globals. Then in apps I can't be bothered supporting Find in, I'd be more likely to write the code--though it would only run if I had a launch flag to tell me my globals are present (sysAppLaunchFlagNewGlobals | sysAppLaunchFlagSubCall). For a lack of backwards compatibility, look at VFS.

    So in summary, life has been frustrating for Palm OS developers. But the real losers here are the users. What used to be a vibrant community of 3rd party developers has somewhat dried up. People simply aren't writing as many good, device-neutral Palm OS apps as they used to.

    --

    Gates' Law: Every 18 months, the speed of software halves.
  19. Go ahead, mod me -1: Microsoft fan by zapp · · Score: 3, Informative

    Boy are you guys gonna hate me for even suggesting Microsoft....

    A lot of people are asking for alternatives to PalmOS... well, how about it's #1 competator: PocketPC?

    I have been playing with the HP iPAQs recently, and am trying to find one at a reasonable price, and lemme tell you I am in love.

    I owned a Visor Delux back when they came out, and it just sucked after a while. Handwriting was a pain in the ass; the software worked, but was limited; there was no good solution for document editing/viewing; audio, video and networking functions were nonexistant at the time. Even then, the top of the line HP Journadas could play mp3s and had a color screen.

    If you want something to replace your pocket pad of paper, go with a palm I guess. If you want a *computer* in your pocket, go with a PocketPC... I personally am drooling over the HP h1945, h2215, and h4155's.

    --
    no comment
    1. Re:Go ahead, mod me -1: Microsoft fan by evilviper · · Score: 3, Informative
      If you want something to replace your pocket pad of paper, go with a palm I guess.

      So far, so good...

      If you want a *computer* in your pocket, go with a PocketPC...

      No, if you want an incredibly unstable, and feature-stripped WINDOWS PC in your pocket, then get a WinCE device. If you want to hit the reset button twice a day, get a WinCE device. If you want to waste a good part of your day staring at the pretty colors the screen displays, while getting nothing at all accomplished, get a WinCE device. Yes, 'wince' is quite a good name for it...

      I personally am drooling over the HP h1945, h2215, and h4155's.

      It's a typical ploy these days. Load a device with tons and tons of features (none of which are complete, or even usable in real terms) and people will be suckered into buying them... That's the same strategy Microsoft uses with Windows... It includes an "image editor" (MS Paint, it's not Photoshop or Gimp, but it gets the same moniker), MP3 playback (forget the fact that WMP sucks at music playback compared to Winamp, XMMS, Zinf, etc.), video editing (that's sure a joke), and many many more like this.

      I found out the same thing about a month after I bought my Casio E-100... It seemed so great, fast, and could do anything (at least on paper). After I threw it away, I got a Psion with a CPU about 1/3rd the speed, that outperformed that E-100 by leaps and bounds. Yes, Windows is slow as hell on the desktop, and WindowsCE is keeping that tradition alive on low-end processors. My Psion also had infinitely more USEFUL features than my WindowsCE device.

      Instead of a crappy text editor that can do nothing (WinCE), I got a whole office suite that could do 99% what the desktop equivalent could. Even embedding images, graphs, charts, or spreadsheets in word documents. My WindowsCE machine couldn't even print on it's own, meanwhile my Psion could print directly to an Infrared or Serial-port printer, without any other computer attached.

      Windows CE, you see, is meant to be nothing more than a "desktop companion", which depends very very heavily on your Windows machine. Psions (aka Symbian, aka EPOC), are full-fledged computers on their own, and have every feature you would want if you intend to do REAL WORK on them.

      Palm devices are glorified notepads with alarm clocks, and they do that particular job quite well. WinCE machines are just expensive toys, that claim to do everything, but aren't proficent enough to do anything even reasonably well. Psion/Symbian/EPOC devices are incredibly powerful, stable, intuitive, high performance, and are quite nearly desktop replacements.

      As a matter of fact, my last year of college, I didn't do anything on my desktop or notebook... I typed up all papers in the word processor, wrote and tested all C programs, typed up and sent out all e-mails (to instructors and other students), browsed the web, uploaded/downloaded files, and printed out everything directly from my Psion. And on the handful of occasions I needed to connect to a computer, I used telnet, a seral-port terminal emulator, and a Java SSH program to connect to them.

      Windows CE sucks, hard, and I'm more than qualified to say so.
      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  20. Re:100 bucks for Palm OS? by zapp · · Score: 2, Informative

    You think $30 is bad for an OS? Gimme a break.

    Most apps for either Palm OR PocketPC run $10-50.

    PocketQuicken (which requires a desktop copy of quicken) costs $40.

    AOL Instant Messenger for PPC costs $20!

    Now... I don't concider $30 bad for an OS, but $20 for AIM?

    --
    no comment
  21. I like my Palm(s)... by MsGeek · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I paid $50 for a refurbed Palm m100 about two years ago. The thing is still running, fat, sassy and happy. I now basically run my life on an m125. Again, bought refurbed, this time for $60 after you factor in the rebate.

    I had to move to the m125 because there's a glitch in PalmOS before version 3.5.2 that conflicts with certain apps running on MacOS 9.x, and the m100 can't have its OS upgraded because it's burned to ROM. The m125 has PalmOS 4.0.1 burned to ROM and it coexists beautifully with my Mac G3 Blue-and-white, my Windows desktop and my dual-booting Thinkpad 600e.

    The thing that really kicks ass about Palm is Palm Desktop. You can still download it from palmone.com for FREE as in beer (not free as in freedom but what do you expect from a closed-source for-profit software/hardware company like Palm) and it is a great little PIM program regardless of whether you use it for syncing your Palm or just keeping your appointments straight.

    Sure, a Zaurus would be able to do more. Yes, PalmOS is crashy and cranky...what do you expect from something that basically is like MacOS before the MultiFinder was born? Still and all, it does what I need it to do, no more, no less.

    Most importantly, carrying around my little Palm is easier on the shoulders and back than carrying around a 3 pound paper-and-pencil planner. That you cannot deny.

    --
    Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
    1. Re:I like my Palm(s)... by Big+Nemo+'60 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is probably redundant but... I much share the same experience. After thinking about a handheld for a long time, I had a chance to grab a refurbished m125. The biggest issue is, I've become addicted to the little thing since then :-)

      The software supplied with the Palm covers most of my needs. My biggest - and most expensive - addition is a MS Money companion - which actually turned the Money desktop software into something USEFUL, as now i do almost all the data entry on the Palm and work on the desktop PC only for balancing, planning and printing reports.

      A few nice small applications and utilities - mostly freeware: HandyShopper and MetrO for example - made it even more useful and/or user frendly. Lots of stuff like that for the Palm.

      Also, since I keep some confidential data on the thing, I added an encryption software and a hack that allows me to lock and unlock safely the Palm in a snap.

      I found it pretty stable. Got crashes trying a few mis-behaving applications - hit the reset button and delete the offender, I never needed more than that.

      And I actually like the AAA batteries. I get 20 to 24 hours of operation with two fresh batteries (I make very little use of backlighting), that's more than two weeks of operation for me, and even in the middle of nowhere all I need is two replacement batteries in my pocket. I am going to miss that when I will upgrade to something else...

      What I miss? A little more memory (but I could add a SD card), a speaker able to reproduce dialtones (you can do that with OS5 devices, and with Clies as well IIRC). Also, if my next cellphone will have Bluetooth in it, I'll probably want Bluetooth connectivity for the Palm. There are rumors of an upcoming model (Tungsten E2?) like a Tungsten E with larger display and built-in Bluetooth, should be much cheaper of the T3 hopefully! If only they made one with a grayscale display...

      Yes, I'm hooked - and what matters, I REALLY use it and it makes my day.

      --
      In the long run we are all dead. - John Maynard Keynes (1883 - 1946)
  22. Don't play OS wargames - be compatible by vik · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm a developer of PalmOS and WinCE/PocketPC applications and I realised that fighting any kind of multiple-platform market required a cross-platform tool that works under top-notch IDEs like Eclipse. And there is one. And it's Free.

    By writing programs in SuperWaba - a cut down Java VM - I avoid most of the crap associated with who has what version of what device. Palm V2.0 to WindowsXP/CE, I have just one application to develop and it runs on all platforms - even in a web browser.

    Don't leave home without it :)

    Vik :v)

  23. Their strategy should be to _GET_ an OS. by MMHere · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't intend this to be a troll.

    They don't currently have a RealOS(tm), so why is acquiring/building a real OS considered a change in OS strategy?

    When I say they don't have an OS right now, I mean:

    - It doesn't do preemptive multitasking, so multiple tasks don't run simultaneously very well. It requires tasks to voluntarily yield, much like MacOS's before OS X. (Palm software people are old Apple software people anyway...) The Palms I've used also did very little in the way of letting multiple tasks run simultaneously. Usually the "top" app is all that's happening (possibly ignoring some interrupt driven background I/O).

    - It doesn't have process memory space protection, AFAIK. Without multiple tasks actually running at the same time, this is less of an issue. Palms do, however, "crash" and need to be rebooted sometimes. Certainly this happens more often than on ucLinux PDAs...

    If they're making those things possible (and PalmOS 6 is claimed to be "better at multitasking," so it sounds like they are), then it may be worthy of actually calling it an Operating System.

  24. Well, to be pickey... by Ghengis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    having preemptive multitasking, or multitasking period is NOT a requirement for being an OS. Neither is having memory protection. All an OS has to do control (allow) execution of programs and *may* provide various services such as accessing hardware. Now, this doens't mean that an OS without multitasking or memory space protection is any "good", but it is still an OS.

    --

    "The best laid plans of mice and men gang oft agley..." - ROBERT BURNS

  25. Palm crashes? by jackDuhRipper · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Others'MMV, but I've owned / used / beaten to near-death 4 different Palms since the III (c.1998) and I can count on my fingers & toes the number of crashes I recall. The preponderance of those are recent*.

    When I say "owned / used ..." I'm talking every day, shutting the thing on and off probably 20 times each day, taking meeting notes (~40 WPM with Graffitti), and reading AvantGo news and PDFs as well as playing games. This in addition to the calandar and To Dos tracking I originally intended.

    Never have any of them (III, IIIx, IIIxe, Tungsten T) locked up in the middle of doing these things - they've locked up when syncing, when Finding (searching) against "bad apps," when attempting to switch from a live "Arkanoid" game, but never in the middle of real usage.

    *- Also, at least in recent Tungsten memory, when I have reset it, it hasn't lost a damn thing - Not a Note, not a To Do, nor a Calendar entry.

    OS 6 - architected and built by the BeOS engineers - looks interesting. I use it much more for "traditional PDA" stuff, but the BeOS was always smart and ass-kicking.

    S

  26. Same strategy. by Trillan · · Score: 3, Informative

    This isn't news at all. This has been Palm's strategy for the past few years -- one OS for low-end devices, one for high end.

    The only difference is the previously high-end OS is becoming the low-end. Which will happen again one day with Palm OS 6.

  27. Lust or Love? by SuperKendall · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Of all the people I have ever seen buy organizers, I recall only one that has bought and used a PocketPC for longer than a few months (as in - carried with him/her frequently).

    I have had my Palm V for years and years now, and it has been with me every day.

    The PocketPC appear to have some nice features, but after you settle down and just want a no hassle device that works without fuss (or a lot of charging) people often head for a Palm, even now.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  28. PalmOS =5.x limits what you can get from the hw by schmaltz · · Score: 4, Informative

    Look, Palm devices have gone from being about as fast as your wristwatch, up to today's being as powerful as laptops of a few years ago (400mhz, 32MB+ RAM, hundreds of megs in SD/MMC.) For a handheld computer that runs for days on battery power, that's quite a bit of power, and possibility.

    They're powerful enough to play mp3s and movies, they do wifi, the pen interface has gotten simpler and more accurate. But it's all limited by the operating system. The problem with PalmOS is, it's built around a Windows 3.x-style event loop with no threading. "Cooperative multiprocessing," if you can call it that.

    Word today from a developer at a biggish PalmOS app development company, is that Palm has gotten some of the BeOS blokes to develop a microkernel, threading, and device driver architecture; that'll be OS 6.0. It won't be open source, sadly, but it'll have Palm's usual level of documentation and support.

    Look at the Zaurus for the example of a pocket computer that's reaching in the right direction: Linux with multitasking, device drivers... mad extensibility. Palm don't got that today.. although I think running KDE is a bit of overdevelopment. Who needs a terminal window, these things have enough power to process speech recognition? That's why the O/S needs to grow.

    --
    Big Daddy, Johnny, Burp, Aunt Zelda, Scott, Slurp, Big Momma ... where's Siggy?
  29. Compare apples to apples please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It cracks me up to see all these PocketPC fans compare their latest big, heavy PocketPC beast to the ancient Visor Deluxe or Palm IIIXE. Those machines are at least two generations old!

    I had just about given up on Palm -- until I got hold of the new Tungsten T3.

    The Tungsten T3 has a gorgeous aluminum case with the same form factor as the classic Palm V-- meaning it will actually fit in your shirt pocket, and it runs at 400mhz with 64mb of RAM. It plays movies, it plays mp3's, has a built-in voice recorder, bluetooth, and plenty of other *actually useful* features, plus a huge library of software.

    So please, if you're going to compare, be fair.

  30. Palm *market* does have momentum by Alan_Peery · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes, the Palm market does have momentum. The lower prices of the Zire and similar models is making them more attractive to non-technical consumers. One instance of this is Rymans (a UK office supply chain commonly found in the center of towns), who have recently begun stocking them.

    The biggest threat to the overall Palm market is Dell's recent low cost bundle of the Axim. I haven't seen any manufacturer bundling Palms with system purchase...

  31. PalmOS... by ajagci · · Score: 2, Interesting

    PalmOS is for palm-sized devices (e.g. ORGANIZERS) that have very little flexibility as far as data loss, convenience, and user-friendliness. No user wants to open up a console and mess with XF86 settings to try and get their organizer working right in the middle of a meeting.

    I have a Palm (a T3 if you must know). It crashes with regularity, it hangs with regularity, it has weird "breathing spaces", where it doesn't respond for a few seconds. When migrating between different versions, I have lost data (all the birthdays went away going from one Palm to another) because Palm's database design sucks. Don't give us this b.s. that the Palm "just works". It doesn't. PalmOS can be a royal pain and require hours of fiddling.

    And stop trying to assassinate Linux by raising the dreaded "messing with XF86 settings" issue. If you buy an organizer running X11, it graphics system just runs, there is nothing to "mess" with. People "mess" with Linux and XF86 settings when they are trying to install it on hardware that the manufacturer doesn't support it on; that's not a design flaw with XF86, it's a testament to its flexibility and openness that you can do that with it.

    So, if it is such a pain, why am I using a Palm? Because its PIM applications are fairly usable, because the file and communications formats are open and documented, because the devices are pretty small, and because they are comparatively cheap. In part, that's because the platform is so old, and in part it's because the platform is so dominant. If someone gave me an X11-based PDA with Palm-like applications, I'd take it in a minute and I'd know already that it would require less "messing with" and crash far less than Palm.

    But the notion that PalmOS is a well-designed or stable OS, or that the Palm developers have some special touch ("The Zen of Palm") is ludicrous.

    is that user requirements for an organizer is significantly different from a computer. Users expect it to work just as well as their wristwatch

    Yes, and I'm still waiting for a PDA for which that is true. Palm, at least, is moving further and further away from that goal. Maybe a Linux PDA will be able to deliver this.

    1. Re:PalmOS... by GarfBond · · Score: 2, Informative

      OS5 does seem to be a little different, and yes, it does seem that it's very easy to drift away from design principles.

      Nevertheless, I stand by my original comments. Visit the palminfocenter.com forums, and while there are some people experiencing problems like yours, most seem to be getting by fine. And Palm is commendable for even having design principles to begin with (keep in mind these were probably published with some of the very early palms)

      I only brought up XF86 because the original poster did, who obviously had no idea of what we're talking about here. He seemed to think these were mini laptops or something.

      Look around on the comments around here, and you'll notice most people are saying things like "it's cool I can do linux-y things on my Zaurus, but my palm still handles PIM functions better"

      BTW, OS6 is supposed to fix some of those database problems, but I guess we'll see on Monday :)

  32. Playing words by varjag · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Since when an operating system have to have preemptive multitasking?

    Primary function of an OS is to provide operating environment for applications, that is: handle I/O, interface to hardware, do some common low-level operations. Other features (e.g. any form of multitasking, memory management, GUI) can be included or not, based on specific needs.

    And you know what? For an organizer, preemptive multitasking isn't anywhere near top priority: typically one uses a limited set of applications for very short periods of time, one at a time. Convenience and responsiveness are far more important.

    Palm was designed to be a handheld organizer, and it is very good at that (even the early models). However, with time people pushed it much further, way beyond its original goals, hence it is worth updating.

    Am not a typical Palm user, and often whished for Palm to have multitasking (e.g. I sit in IRC and suddenly need to look up someone's address), but for most Palm users it is not an essential feature.

    --
    Lisp is the Tengwar of programming languages.
  33. BeOS by octal666 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've heard PalmOS bought a while ago the old good BeOS, might it be they are planning to use it as the new PalmOS 6?

    By the way, just yesterday I bought a Tungsten T2 and it's my first PDA, and the first thing I see this morning is Palm is changing something, I've broke in cold sweat while reading the story. Slashdot is going to kill me one day.

    --
    DON'T PANIC
  34. Simple reasoning behind the scenes by Jouni · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's very easy to see why Palm would be doing this - there is a fairly big stock of devices out there.

    Touting the new OS 6 as the best thing since sliced bread would make it extremely hard to ship pre-6 devices, both for themselves and all the licensors. So understandably they have to downplay its meaning to avoid sitting on warehouses full of Tungsten devices nobody wants to buy.

    It's somewhat amusing that the only named benefits they can find for the old OS is smaller footprint and cost. :) If there are two real market segments for the two operating system versions, they would be "people frustrated with crippled non-multithreading 16-bit legacy OS" and "people who just don't care". Unfortuntely, you can't sell Tungsten @ 400 USD for the second group.

    I will hold my judgement on whether Palm OS 6 really is the savior of Palm, but as with any projects this magnitude, expect this too will take a while to mature.

    Jouni

    --
    Jouni Mannonen | Game Designer, Consultant
  35. Honestly, why? by Roguelazer · · Score: 2, Informative

    I've used Palms and PocketPC's since Palm OS 3.0 and Windows CE 3.0 (PocketPC 2000, that is). The WinCE is a real OS, yes, as many people have pointed out. However, I ask WHO NEEDS MULTITASKING? You can only fit one program at a time on that screen anyhow... Load times for Palm are next to nothing, so what's the point of multitasking when it's just as fast to open the app anew... You can't compare PocketPC to Palm. PosketPC is like Windows, with separate storage and execution memory, and with a footprint bigger than most Palms' RAM + ROM amounts. Palm is a handheld OS that does its job well.

    Now if only ParaGraph would release Calligrapher for PalmOS, we'd be good...

    --
    My Systems