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PalmSource Drops Mac Synchronization in Cobalt
Gear_Media writes "Originally posted at PalmInfocenter: 'In a surprise announcement at the developer conference, PalmSource revealed that Palm OS Cobalt will no longer offer synchronization with the Mac. This marks a departure as previous versions of the Palm OS had long shipped with Mac compatible hotsync software.' Smart move? I think not."
This could be a good idea for them, because I bet Apple step in! (or someoene else) Outsourcing anyone!?!
Maybe its time for apple to ressurect the Newton?
With Mac OS X getting stronger support from both nerds and end users and palm losing in its own niche, not supporting a platform with an existing userbase is pretty moronic.
maybe palmsource knows something we dont re: isync?
Who cares about 3% less profit, when the CEO's are ranking in millions for running their company into the ground.
I wonder if this stems from any concern at Palm that Apple might come out with an Apple-branded PDA.
On one hand, I think that is unlikely because, unlike the MP3 player, the PDA market is swamped and Apple can't make that much of a splash.
On the other hand, Apple has relentlessly marginalized 3rd-party developers in the past few years. That's not necessarily a bad thing (many of the iApps are great products), but I can see other 3rd-party developers getting scared.
However, all in all, I think Palm is just being stupid.
I can understand their approach though. If they release their own sync software they end up with a bunch of extra tech support calls.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
iSync requires Palm's 'Palm Desktop' software to be installed before it can sync with PalmOS devices
MacBook Pro. Worst name since the Bicycle
My Apple iBook G4 12" w/802.11b/g + Bluetooth is small enough anyway. It's the size of s sheet of paper and it weighs four and a half pounds. Meanwhile, it can burn CDs, play DVDs, and sync with my cell phone.
If I really cared about sync'ing with a lousy palm I've got Virtual PC on my iBook already.
Somebody got himself a woman...
I've got a Newton MP2100 I can sell you...
Best. PDA. Evar.
Well if Palm doesn't care about how I sync my device with my mac, I surely know that a P800 from Sony Ericsson p.e. does. Smart move indeed, same as in: I'll never look back.
Given the relative market shares, maybe Apple is going to devote those resources to integrating with Linux instead. Didn't the Linux (desktop) user base slip past the Apple (desktop) user base last year?
Well, there's the iPod. Not a "real" PDA, but you can load it with your calendar, addresses, and other such data for reference on the road.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Add to that that they need to dedicate developers to supporting a platform that less than 5% of customers use.
I'm sure that was their logic, but it's short sighted. Palm competes directly against Win CE--Mac users are a natural customer base. Case in point: I've been shopping for a cellphone/pda. Guess which ones I'm not looking at any more?
One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
Missing Sync will make your Clie, Palm or Pocket PC sync with your mac... Works and is cheap...
www.markspace.com
Don't be mislead by just because it's a Microsoft product - PocketPCs work well with Macs.
I'm using an HP iPAQ 2210 with my PowerBook right now, and it syncs very well through iSync thanks to the addition of some software from mark/space. It even allows you to mount the PocketPC's storage devices as volumes on your Desktop in OS X, which I don't think you can do in Windows.
MacBook Pro. Worst name since the Bicycle
My Sony Ericsson P900 syncs beautifully...and wirelessly via bluetooth...with my Mac via iSync. Palm is so 90's.
There is no gravity...the earth just sucks.
Without Hotsync Manager, iSync does not work. So unless you want to spend more money, you will not be able to sync the newest palms with your Mac.
That's a shame because at my school district we were looking at rolling out a Palm program to help teachers stay organized. Now that Palm made this decision, I don't know what we're going to do.
I've already sent them feedback, but I'm not holding my breath waiting on a reply.
What, me worry?
If nobody writes a free conduit to iSync, then I will. This isn't that big a deal.
..don't panic
Mark/Space, the makers of the Missing Sync for Mac OS, will fill the void. Check out their website to read all about it: http://www.markspace.com/cobalt.html
Stuart Eichert
"Fortunately, a third party company, Mark/Space, has pledged to make a version of their Missing Sync client for Cobalt. It will be released later this year in anticipation of the first Palm OS Cobalt devices. Missing Sync for Cobalt will enable users to connect and synchronize information between Palm OS Cobalt devices and Macs running Mac OS X via USB, network, WiFi or Bluetooth."
Je-zus, it's good someone said this. I don't know how many posts were at OSnews.com saying "pfft- I already have iSync! Palm Desktop blows!" Blatantly ignoring the fact that if you don't install Palm Desktop, you're SOL as far as syncing your Palm with your Mac.
A reply mentions that you "probably" won't need the palm desktop any longer- but have we heard anything about this? Is Apple going to buy out Mark/Space's Missing Sync? Not likely. What is more likely is that Palm users on the Mac will have to *buy* a copy of Missing Sync just to sync their Palm OS devices with their Macs... Bleh.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
They have ignored the OpenSource community, and now they are snubbing Apple.
Palm has ALWAYS BEEN SUPPORTIVE OF OPEN SOURCE DEVELOPMENT. I take it you have never actually DONE any palm development. There is a completely (f)ree toolchain available for the Palm devices, and it's why I use it. Palm does not have the resources to support the smaller market of linux (and mac, I guess) users. They have always been willing to work with developers and release information - at least so far as I've seen.
Please cite examples if you are going to make statements like the above.
If they choose not to write a conduit, then the information will be available to do so. My guess is that Apple will include palm syncing in their next iSync update as a internal thing, and this miffed PalmSource for some reason. (the iTools already do much of what Palm desktop does, better).
..don't panic
Syncing requires two components, HotSync itself and conduit(s).
HotSync handles the communication between the host machine and the Palm handheld. This includes handshaking, scheduling conduit activation, data transfer between the device and conduits, error checking, and logging.
The Conduits are what handles the data once it's on the host machine, chosing which records need to be updated on the host and client, backing up data, etc.
iSync's interaction with the Palm is as a conduit only. It still requires HotSync to communicate with a device. HotSync is developed by PalmSource and is provided as part of the Palm Desktop distribution.
There is an open source version of HotSync out there, I wouldn't think it would take too much effort to port it over to OS-X and adapt it to whatever changes Palm is making to the new syncronization process.
Aside from the fact that Apple and other third party entities do a MUCH better job a syncing that Palm does on it's own hardware, I think this is a strange decision. In fact, this might be one of the few "no longer supporting Mac" statements I've heard in almost two years.
If anything, most companies are jumping into the ring on Mac support because of OS X being so versatile. Seems strange, but like I said-- you'll still be able to sync your Palm pilot, just not with their software.
If anything, it's bad PR and just another reason to ask yourself why you really need a PDA anymore. I believe a good cell phone with iSync would take care of it.
"Politicians find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the people."
One thing to think about is that it's not like PalmSource has been all that good at keeping Mac sync up to speed with Windows in the past.
The first version of Palm Desktop for Mac was terrible. Then they bought Claris Organizer when Apple no longer needed it after killing the Newton and de-emphasizing Claris products other than FMPro. At that point things were OK, but really Palm just picked up Claris Organizer for cheap. It wasn't a real commitment on their part.
From then until OS X they really did nothing for the Mac desktop. Then they came out with an OS X version, but no new features (no network sync, no WiFi sync, etc...). Now they've given up altogether.
Mark/Space makes pretty good stuff so far, and their support has been very good. There's some question of whether or not they can handle the scale, but I'm sure they'll make a greater effort at pushing the Mac 'Palm' desktop forward than PalmSource has. In fact their first release will have more improvements than PalmSource has given us in years (WiFi sync, Ethernet sync).
The longer term issue is whether or not third party conduit makers stop supporting the Mac because of this move, even though Mark/Space has said they will make a conduit manager that works with everyone's conduits.
But in terms of development focus on the desktop and conduit manager itself, I'd expect Mark/Space to make more progress than PalmSource ever has.
Well it's better than dropping it in carbon freeze, I guess. Oh, wait. Different thread.
What probably happened was that Mac users are probably moving to the free Apple stuff like iCal and iChat and iWhatsis instead of Palm Desktop, and then by extension they'd be required by the userbase demand to make the Palms sync with the iApps. So they said, "Feh... whateva..."
I would almost wager on Apple putting a Palm sync feature into the next releases of their iApps. At this rate Apple might wind up making all the hardware AND the software for Macs.
Not that I'd turn my nose up at iBryce. C'mon, Apple. Everyone's grandma wants to do 3D rendering with deep texture editing.
--- Ban humanity.
I see several possibilites here.
Palm might be counting on third-party software to cover their Mac users, or counting on iSync. In this case, they blew it big-time by not making that clear.
Or, Palm could have decided that they just don't need any Mac customers, and didn't give much thought to how their existing Mac customers would feel about it. This would be amazingly stupid.
I don't see any evidence that the second one is true; I'm sure it's the first one. Palm has been pretty good in the past about supporting their Mac customers; why would they suddenly abandon them, just when they are trying to win mindshare for their new Cobalt platform?
Hmmm, I just checked. Missing Sync costs $40. I'm starting to think "amazingly stupid" again.
Thinking about this some more, Apple customers are unlikely to embrace PocketPC. Maybe Palm figures those guys will buy Palm PDAs even if Palm doesn't do anything to support them. That's playing with fire, if true. If you drive customers away, it's hard to get them back.
What Palm ought to do is make sure that Apple has all the data they need to make iSync just work out of the box with all new Palm PDAs. This ought to just mean keeping Apple up to date with some information. Easy, inexpensive. And they ought to brag to all their Mac-using customers that they are doing it!
And if Palm wants to walk away from their Mac desktop application, they should either gift it to Apple, or open-source it, not just throw it in the bin.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
Mac users suprisingly announce they will drop support for Palm
I know that a lot of Mac users out there see this as some kind of conspiracy, but the truth of the matter is: if Mac Users were a viable market for Palm OS products, Palm OS would enjoy continued support on that platform. PalmOne, and PalmSource, are not run by fools. They're the only company in recent memory to beat Microsoft in direct competition. This decision can not have come as arbitrarily as a lot of the people on this forum speculate. Either there are some serious architecture issues with OS X that drive the cost of developing a software package that is comparable to the one available on Windows to an unprofitable level, or the market for OS X users is just so small, that it doesn't make it worth their while to pursue that segment. Considering that software for the Mac has been released for previous versions of Palm OS, I'd tend to believe that the prior is the actual reason.
I suppose there is a third option, and that is that Palm is aware of some new product that Apple is preparing and doesn't wish to commit resources to the development of a software package that may be trumped by some new Apple product. This doesn't make that much sense, in that Palm was able to wipe the floors with Wince, developed in house by MS. In that situation Palm couldn't give up on such a huge market segment and remain in business. With Apple, they could certainly give up on such a small segment without much concern. Apple has done so much with its branding that there is a risk that even if Palm could create a better product for the Apple market, it might not matter in the minds of Apple users.
by Mike Buddha -- Someday the mountain might get him, but the law never will.
How hard is it really, to put together a little app that sits between the USB port and some generic calendaring application, that passes info back and forth, applying simple rules as whether to delete, duplicate, or change a database record?
.05 (mac user) = 4Mil/yr old mac revenue
.5 (loss in customers) = 2 Mil/yr new mac revenue
The fact that some small third-party developer has been able to do this in the past (and probably will do so in the future) points to the fact that this is a trivial thing to do. The only cost to Palm is in tech support (which may be the real reason they dropped support, not the development costs.)
Assuming that Palm really can save maybe a million dollars a year by not developing for the Mac, and in doing so, they alienate about 50% of their future Mac business, AND that Mac users are represented in their customer base at about 5%:
$80Mil sales/yr *
4Mil *
Assumed cost savings by laying off Mac engineers: 1 Mil/yr
Projected loss by laying off Mac engineers: 1Mil/yr - 2Mil/yr = (1 Mil/yr) decrease in gross sales revenue.
Like I said, the real cost probably isn't in the engineering, even if you're real conservative about the cost of the engineering talent. It's probably in the tech support (Palm has outsourced their tech help line to India, so this probably has something to do with it...)
I try new versions of iSync every time Apple releases them. And yet iSync still takes 5-10 times longer to sync then the Palm HotSync software. This sucks because I *want* to use iCal, but I can't if I have to spend 5 minutes syncing (instead of 30 seconds).
I hold it, that a little rebellion, now and then, is a good thing. -- Thomas Jefferson
Number of Macintosh users: 25 million
Percentage of Mac users who own a PalmOS PDA: 12%
(source: Apple)
Lost market for Palm: 3 million customers
dude.
the usb market probably would have grown and done it's thing without the imac, but you know what? the instant the imac came out, the usb market exploded. yes, it's because all of the sudden there was a captive market of imac owners who needed printers and slow-ass usb hard drives, but the point was the imac was a major product whose sheer popularity created an entire market for usb devices.
the same could be argued for digital video editing--until apple created a market for 1394 minidv cameras by shipping millions of copies of imovie, no one was doing it at home except for uh, you, with your 1989 amiga. cut-ting edge, my man.
and i clearly had a centris 660av with a 25mhz 68040 and DSP chip that could capture s-video out of the box in 1993. it was just a pain, because the computer couldn't talk to the camera very well--there was s-link, but it never worked right. apple made it all just work(TM) and that's kind of what people give them cred for, y'know?
(interesting note about multitasking: when apple went to OS X, preemptive multitasking meant that the age-old behavior of all processes screeching to a halt when the mouse button was held down was finally done away with. there was actually a massive outcry because people in realtime production environments had used this little limitiation to their advantage, essentially starting and stopping the computer as they needed. i just thought that was interesting.)
london is drowning and i live by river
I have extensive experience working with the low-level serial communications facilities on the Palm platform. I've bypassed hotsync on a number of ocassions because it is overkill for a lot of things - but I can't see anything that difficult about it, just tedious. The information, at least on the Palm side, is all available.
..don't panic
You guys are putting way too much thought into this - it just ain't that hard. Palm screwed up. Didn't want to deal with Apple on their terms, and Steve Jobs and Bill Gates decided to hurt Palm, to their mutual best interests.
1. Apple is working on a PDA product of their own based on OSX, Palm got wind of it and decided to jump before they were pushed. Newton II? Odds are against it, but how much more work to add a bigger, 65K color screen to an iPod and brush off Inkwell, which is already in the OSX product? Sync with OSX, sync with Outlook, which explains the lack of an Appleworks 'Office' killer and the integration of Entourage to be used in the Enterprise. Now that Pocket Windows is in cars and smartphones, Gates is willing to cede some marketshare to Apple, whom he thinks he can control better than Palm.
2. The number of takers for Palm's Cobalt is so low that they can't afford the engineers to do the Mac sync. Remember, if you make PDAs like a Clie or other product, you probably purchased a license for Version 5 of Palm OS. If nobody is buying Cobalt (Version 6) you have to make cuts somewhere, and they are making it here. They can easily add it back in if enough Cobalt licensees ask for it.
Now - do a Google check. You will find that none of the usual suspects has agreed to build a new PDA using Cobalt - everything being announced is based on the current Version 5. Palm is in deep doodoo - they haven't sold any Cobalt licenses and have to trim back. Time to sell the Palm stock?
Jpilot is the answer. Not only is it a near-perfect replacement for the Palm Desktop, thanks to the pilot-link backend it can do things the latter can't, including synching over Wi-Fi.
Ok some of you don't use the palm..great..however understand they in some segments of the business world they are MANDATORY... As a 3rd year medical student I can tell you that every serious doctor is getting one, pt charting systems are supporting them etc .. they are awsome reference sources.
The problems with palms action is not the lack of hot sync as I fully expect isync to fill this gap and if not mark space will fill the gap.
The problem lies in the many applications on the palm that "sync" with a central DB to update a reference. Apple needs to ensure that palm and pocket PC apps that use this fuctionality have the hooks in OS X that they need to function , without a seperate version of the palm or pocket PC app.
This kind of thing KILLS Apples market share. Apple can do what they like on their own turf but they MUST interoperate with 3rd parties SEAMLESSLY, better then windows if they expect to grow.
This is a crushing blow which means Apple will have to work hard to overcome. Futhermore dog plus world will cover the fact that palm will not support the mac but no one will cover the fact that isync can fill a significant portion of this void.
I love my mac but more Apple needs to realize that they must beat windows when it comes to 3rd party interactivity.
Apple could come out with a PDA device
BUT
1.)It must be perfectly compatible with palm or pocket PC...no exceptions
2.) when connected to my mac those palm apps must sync and be able to conenct without a single change in the developers code.
if either of the above is NOT true then the problems will ALWAYS be blamed on Apple so long as the product functions under windows XP..even if the real problem is with the palm app.
Which brings me back to my original point...this is a huge burden for Apple but its the ONLY way to make the device work.
The iPod is an excellent example. The ipod has been succesful BECAUSE it works better on BOTH mac and windows esp with itunes....any PDA will have to follow the same path which is significantly harder due to multifunctionality of a PDA
i suspect that Steve Jobs problem with PDAs have something to do with these tough issue.
I would love to hear from some people who develop for palm about the problems with syncing thru a mac for a Db driven app..(like Epocrates or PEPID)
IMHO
anyway
Andrew
PalmSource Cheif Competitve Officer, Michael Mace, has issued a statement direcct from PalmSource regarding the issue in the article comments, "PalmSource is fortunate to have a great Palm OS developer community who provide solutions for Macintosh compatibility today. Palm OS provides an open and flexible architecture and allows its licensees to decide whether to ship a Mac compatibility solution with their Palm Powered device. (One such solution is provided by Mark/Space.) We are continuing our efforts with Apple to provide compatibility between Palm OS and Macintosh."
This last statement is the most promising. Assuming it isn't empty spin, further support for Palm devices via iSync seems probable (provided the HotSync manager issue is addressed). I can't imagine Apple will let a core part of their iSync hub disappear. But we have only the above to speculate about. Perhaps Apple will make some sort of announcement. Once again, speculation.
Still, I feel Palm's decision is a foolish one. I am a Mac user mostly, and when I hear somebody isn't going to support my platform of choice I get angry - feel betrayed - dread the smug comments from my Windoze using associates.. All in all, I am left uninclined to further support that company. For instance, my Clie 710C is getting long in the tooth. I've been eyeing Tungsten PDA's for a few months and was initially excited about the Cobalt announcement. A part of me wants to look elsewhere now just to spite them. Maybe an iSync compatible cellphone might be my next purchase?
But since I do own a Clie, and already own Missing Sync, I have already gotten used to zero Mac support from the parent company. I trust Mark/Space to fix this problem for future versions of the Palm OS. But other people won't feel the same way. Mac zealots especially. Is it good business to anger even a small percent of your customer base? Shouldn't the "working with Apple" comment have come along with the bad news? Seriously stupid business move, IMO.
~Doug!as
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