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Girls in the Gaming World
dkleinsc writes "The BBC is running an article about life as a female gaming squad. There's some discussion about the welcome or lack thereof women get in the gaming community, and arguments over whether it's a good idea to have separate women's matches."
and arguments over whether it's a good idea to have separate women's matches."
Why? This isn't real life, where men have more muscle than women do (I'm not being sexist, just take an intro biology course), and are therefore superior to women in terms of pure strength, speed, etc. Online, everybody's equal, the characters can be tuned to roughly equivalent stats, the only thing that matters is reflexes to move the mouse and hit the keyboard.
Does anyone else see this as an attempt to make an issue out of a non-issue? Games are marketed towards guys because guys make up the vast majority of the gaming market. Why don't they target the elderly with hiphop music? Becuase its more cost effective to target the younger crowd. Girls gaming? Great... But no one should complain about the fact that way more guys game then girls. Thats the girl's own preogatives.
The imbalance between men and women was clear to see, with almost 50 male teams taking part, compared with just seven female squads. And as in the world of sport, there were separate competitions for each gender.
Separate competitions? That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
Boys' and girls' real-world sports are separated early on because of physical attributes. Physically, girls have different abilities from boys. And there are other physical attributes that cause both genders to become... distracted.
But online? Who knows -- who cares -- about your real-world attributes? For crying out loud, that's what makes gaming great for us geeks -- we don't have to be muscular, or fit, or even easily mobile! I'd probably lose 10-to-1 against Stephen Hawking at BZFlag.
So in a world where physical ability and differences are irrelevant, what justification could there possibly be for a gender-segregated gaming tournament?
Perhaps the organizers have a cynical ulterior motive? If I were a top-level girl geek, I'd turn down an invitation to such a demeaning event -- so all they'd get would be the second-rate girl teams. And then they can say "but look, they're clearly not in the same league."
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
Where have I heard that one before?
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
What is so terrible about pointing out the apparent, natural and omnipresent differences about males and females?
(ok, here I go throwing my karma into the fire)
Men excel at physical pursuits. It is not only because our hormones allow greater muscle mass -- there are other forces at work here and science has not yet pinned them down. But a quick look at fighter pilots today, for example, shows that even in a field where physical strength is not essential, men are far more suited to the task than women.
Sure, there are lady fighter pilots, women who can exert the concentration and coordination necessary for Uncle Sam to trust them with $100M toys. Just as there are women who can beat men at Quake III. All I'm saying is that statistics confirm that there are not many of them.
Is that so bad?
Some sports separate out men and women because physical differences make it hard for them to compete. Obvious examples that come to mind are contact sports like football and basketball, or even non-contacts like tennis (mentioned in one of the article comments) where physicality still plays a strong role. It's the same reasoning that makes sports like boxing have weight classes (a gender-neutral issue): to produce interesting matchups that let the competitors focus on how well they compare with others with a similar physical starting point.
Having said that, it doesn't strike me that there are significant differences in physiology that would prevent co-ed competitions from being fair, any more than you would expect one gender or another to have an advantage in competitions of bridge or snooker. The fact that they still compete in separate brackets more likely has more to do with advertising dollars (sponsors probably figure that the female market for Counterstrike is pretty small) or inertia (hey, let's do our tournaments like every other sports competition!) than any argument based on merit.
One would hope not, But unfortunaty Pennis Envy is all too common in the gaming world. When some guy is playing in a tournament and they get schooled by a girl it gives them that feeling of insecuirty.
i love the way, when the media reports on males in gaming, they find the geekiest ones they can. but when they report on females, they have close ups of the two best looking ones.
...and they want to bring it back in? I play some of these games and not once in my mind has the gender of my teammate or opponents has ever entered my mind. In fact it would be a distraction. Thinking that someone has an advantage in a game because they are male or female is like trying to figure out if someone has an advantage if they are right or left handed. If someone wins or loses they do so because they are an accomplished or failed player. Gender has very little to do with it.
The one place where competition can be leveled down to fundemental non-physical attributes, a place where women can actually compete on equal footing as guys, they want to bring back gender divisions? I just don't get it.
That is 1,000% true. Women (or percieved women) always get special treatment in gaming situations, be it on a MUD, FPS, MMORPG, doesn't matter. People used to send my girlfriend RL Purchaseable items for her MUD, especially if they asked to see her picture. It's the same tendency that causes most men to do "chivalrous" things for women: somewhere deep down they think this is getting them one step closer to getting laid.
...
To quote the great Chris Rock, "Can I help you with that? Can I help you with some dick?"
And as to getting schooled, I'm sure most gamers wouldn't mind Stevie Case (AKA KillCreek) walking all over them in a game of Quake III. Hell, if she can take John Romero to the cleaners
Xbox reviews.. We think they're funny.
I'll probably get modded down, because no one of either gender every listens to me, but.....
Since many major online games (UT, Quake, etc) offer granularity of servers, I imagine there's probably alredy "girls only" servers and other private interest group servers just the same (password protected, et al).
It seems natural. We already have television networks (several) specifically for genders. Chat rooms for certain interests.
Now, with all that said, I can't say I mind competing with/losing to a girl. I don't understand the need for specific major competitions specifically for females. In fact, I'd imagine that 'being a male' as a requirement for a competition would probably result in legal action.
-m.
Since there is no way to mod this "Duh", I had to respond.
OF COURSE! Have you ever played an online game? There are always those who are (or pretend to be) loud-mouthed, homophobic, racist, misogynist, immature dick-heads. They usually are the ones who cheat and play like tools. They either really are that ignorant, or they do it just to cause a stir and piss people off. Being female would only garner a different type of insult from these morons. They are what make online gaming so annoying. But it is so much fun and gratifying to own them. :-)
Now I know that not everyone is like this, but the ones who aren't don't care who they are playing against. Most of the time you don't know anyway, you just know people by their screen names and your past experiences with them. For all I know, some of them are women.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I hate to bring this up, but there is some reason that it is advantageous for the "girl gamers" to have their own, seperate competitions.
I remember attending the "all female tournament" for quake 1, and other than the top two or three players, I wouldn't say any of the other girls had any business being in any tournaments. In theory, there is nothing seperating men from women in skill in these games. In practice, it doesn't work that way. The girls, at least so far, are never the top players. Having seperate events for the women gives them a huge advantage in terms of exposure and, well, being in news articles or potentially winning money.
The reasons for the disparity in skill seem pretty simple. While there is nothing specific keeping any individual girl from being at the top of the heap (that I can think of), the fact that there are umpteen (we'll say 99) times more men playing than women means statistically likely one per 100 of the top players will be a girl, and one per 100 of the top teams will be all girls. Here, we have 7 out of 57 teams. Even if the ratio is not 99:1, I doubt it is anywhere near 7:1. The women are just pulling talent from a smaller pool.
What exacally is wrong with girls gaming? I'm a female. I love video games... and I play well. Why should I have to play against all girls because some little 15 y/o boy is afraid I will beat him? Any male who thinks we should be seperated needs to grow up. It won't hurt your ego that bad to loose to a girl.
-ABG
Oh yes... but this article is about Counter-Strike competitions where females don't get the participate in the same brackets as male, and don't get to try and win the big cash prizes. Now please enlighten us as to how this is justifyable by saying girls prefer other games genres. I guess because the game is not targetted at them, they can't play it at the same level as men ?
It's a load of crock if you ask me. It's men afraid that their testosteron levels will be going down if they get beat by a girl. Get over yourselves. Even if only 1% of Counter-strike gamers are girls, it doesn't mean that they are the worst 1% of players. And it also doesn't mean that they can't play in a "no-girls allowed" tournement (you know the kind, where 8 year old boys don't want to catch cooties and stuff). And that they can't win the same prize money. This is not a sport where physical differences would tip the scale. Girls and boys handle mices and keyboards with the same skill.
I personnally don't see why women can't participate at the same level and even against men in this type of event.
"Not to mention all the idiots who use words like boxen."
Anonymous Coward on Monday August 04, @06:49PM
Sure, there are lady fighter pilots, women who can exert the concentration and coordination necessary for Uncle Sam to trust them with $100M toys...All I'm saying is that statistics confirm that there are not many of them.
Actually, women (on average; we all know women AND men who are exceptions) tend to excel at just the kind of skills fighter pilots (and kick-ass gamers) need. Good reflexes, eye/hand coordination, etc. But fighter plane cockpits are crammed with equipment and most of it is designed with a MALE pilot in mind, i.e. 5'9" or taller. The best reflexes in the world aren't going to help you if you can't reach the controls.
Let them compete on an equal footing initially. If it really turns out that there is such a clear deliniation in ability, then you have a great case for a separate league. If not, then we've just eliminated a lot of unnecessary organizational overhead.
.
Seems fairly straigtforward.
A goal is a dream with a deadline
Hear hear. I could be beaten by blind,pre-pubescent paraplegics with bad hearing all the live-long day and I'd still enjoy the experience. But it's ruined when some whiny brat from Jerkwater, USA calls me a "cheting haker" because I got a head-shot.Once.
To think that only women are subject to abuse is either naievity or ego.
I just want to say that the comments from the male crowd here alone is a very good indication of why there aren't as many girl gamers.
We simply do not get any respect.
A common misconception about girls that play games is that they play "boring online games", such as Yahoo games, solitare, chess or whatever. Yes, many girls play those kinds of games. However, so do many guys. The thing is, most of those guys would never post here, and most of those girls are the only ones the average slashdotter would see (Yeah, I'm using a stereotype here, so sue me).
Another common misconception is that games are marketed towards guys because there aren't as many girls that do play "the cool" games. This is a matter of market forces. While I agree that there are fewer girls that play games than guys, the number of girls that play games isn't really that low. In fact, most of my female friends play games. Females make up 51% of the world population, after all, so there's a HUGE market out there.
A third misconception is that girls aren't interested in games. Totally wrong, see above. Girls ARE interested in games. Obviously.
These are misconceptions that are repeated constantly. We girls are simply seen as people who aren't techy. If one of us IS, then we're seen as not as competent as a guy. If we prove to be competent, then we suddenly turn into a threat. All of those are reasons to talk down to girls, not just in gaming, but in other areas as well.
I can tell you one thing that girls are though. We're not interested in being called names, just because we try to show an interest in the very same field as guys.
Maybe, just maybe, more girls would confess to being gamers if they weren't insulted whenever they tried it.
(Okay, maybe this post wasn't so thought through, but I'm currently busy starving myself to keep my figure.... or maybe I'm just delirious from coding all day and forgetting to eat. Bah, whatever.)
That says to me that the girls can be just as good as the guys. Why should they be limited from playing in any particular bracket in a tournament? I can't think of a good reason...unless I didn't think I could beat them.
The problem I see is with the article rather than with the tournaments. This is the first time I've heard of a tournament that had seperate brackets for males and females. In most cases, men and women competed on the same ladders with mixed or unmixed teams, their choice. As far as I'm aware of, the push for female-only ladders came from female-only clans, not from male-only clans (and to my knowledge, few clans are male-only by choice of the members). Each clan I've participated in has welcomed any female member that was up to the normal membership requirements of the clan, which has resulted in a handful of female members over the years between the 3 clans. The only reason there weren't more female members is because there weren't more female players looking to join (one exception in my memory being a point at which membership closed while a female was being actively recruited, because the clan decided to stop playing the game rather than bringing in 6-10 new players).
-PainKilleR-[CE]
The thing that seems off about your post is how you're confusing videogames with sports. The physical differences (such as lower center of gravity, muscle-length / breadth, and etc.) that tend to delineate the female and male classes in sports don't really apply to videogames. PS: Chess grandmaster Anjelina Belakovskaia 1995, in case you were wondering. More recently, Alexandra Kosteniuk was ranked #29 over all in U.S. Chess on December 2003 (http://www.uschess.org/ratings/top/dec03/OverallL ist.php) which is ranked regardless of gender or age. She's only 20.
PPS: I regularly manage to kick people's asses in videogames, regardless of their gender. It's probably my lower center of gravity helping me.
I don't want the world, I just want your half.
The interesting thing about gaming is the fact that the friends you make can be so diverse. To say one (minority) group should be segregated because they don't play as good as majority group Y is just silly. Why would we want to put up more artificial walls?
Quack, quack.
Really, someone who has so far only played with idiotic guys that only keep saying "u fag!" when you frag them, will feel very much relieved when playing against the usually quieter girls. I love playing against other people online, but I hate how the communication is abused with the permanent trash talk. The game is supposedly to be fun and people are there to show their playing skills, not their ignorance and horrible verbal/typing 5k1LL5. Gender mixed teams really help the S/N ratio, even if most of the conversations are "A/S/L?". Hey, both guys and girls go online to increase their chances to get laid, we can't do jack about it.
But I digress, I've had many girls as opponents in several kinds of games. In fact, I would recommend playing the awesome Pac-Man Vs. against women, it's ungodly funny. Women-friendly games are not always stupid things like Barbie. There are great games you can play with your SO, if not together, then taking turns is fun too. Examples? Animal Crossing, Mario Party, Mario Kart (online, yes!), Mario Tennis, Bomberman, Tetris Attack, Parappa and Umjammer Lammy, and Wario Ware, even some FPS I have played against women and had a great time.
I think an all-boy team is just as bad as an all-girl team. But, I also see an advantage with sexual-segregation. There are people very insecure about themselves, those are the ones that will never accept a defeat from the other gender. Let these idiots play with themselves in their closed circles, and let the mixed gender teams get rid of them and enjoy the insane fun.
So please, continue to make your gender-specific teams and keep yourselves out of this horrible, unfair mixed gender world where I play =P
- Otaku no naka no otaku, otaking da!!!
The sad thing is that homophobic (gay, fag, queer), racist (jew, nigger, coon), and/or other inoffensive language (rape, cocksucker) seem to be a standard part of the lexicon for a large percentage gamers.
Frankly, I find this unacceptable. I'm not homosexual but I do find homophobic language offensive, and the same goes for the other, less acceptable language that crop up on almost every public gaming service.
I find it both funny and sad that these kids (and most of the people who resort to such language are kids) think nothing of using language that they wouldn't dare use at the dinner table or to a someone they bumped into at the mall to sound "cool" and "macho" online.
And it's amazing how far they'll take it: I've had people threaten to track me down in real life and kill me and my family, rape our corpses and then rip our heads off and shit down our necks. If it wasn't so laughable at the time then I would have been well within my rights to report the matter to the relevant authorities. I'd love to see some 13 year-old sat down on the couch with his parents and a pair of law enforcement officers explaining that he regularly sent death threats to people just because they outclassed him in a game.
The fact is that as long as this sort of behaviour is accepted or even tolerated by the majority of online gaming communities then those communities will remain the domain of teenagers who have bigger mouths and egos than brains.
There's no doubt in my mind that, whilst most men would shrug their shoulders, dismiss the idiots as part of life and just carry on gaming, most women will not tolerate such stuff.
As my girlfriend put it when she saw some of the stuff that gets spewed out by some of these people, "What idiot would say that kind of stuff and why would you want to spend your free time listening to it?"
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Yes, signing up for a privately run tournament that happens to have a male and female ladder is such discrimination. I mean the we should merge the NBA and WNBA or the PGA and WPGA. Granted, there is a big difference between a keyboard and mouse and playing basket ball, but still the point stands. There is segregation all over the place. In fact, most of the time there if a female tourny, they can also play in the "open" tournament. It's okay to have the Black Enterntainment Network, but if I started the White Entertainment Network I would be a racist. It's okay to have a female tourny and a open tourny, but if you have a female and a male, people bust a fucking gasket. I'm not against female gamers either. I like them. Gamer chicks are cool. I have several as friends. However, not every thing is a horrible injustice requiring a lawsuit.
As a female gamer, I can say the following:
I played The Sims when it first came out, and enjoyed it thoroughly at first. It was fun, and kept me entertained for the better part of a week. After the house- and family-building aspect got old, though, I discovered that there are only a certain number of times you can remove someone's pool ladder or stick a guy in a small, doorless room with a lit fireplace and loads of wicker furniture before it ceases being amusing.
I also enjoy games such as Quake III and Unreal Tournament. I like them because I'm good at them, and can whip just about any of my male friends. They're the perfect games for a LAN party, when you've got ten people in a room, working as teams, shouting orders, laughing, and having a good time. For me, though, first-person shooters sorta lose their appeal without the group dynamic.
Even more entertaining are games like Warcraft and Starcraft, mainly because they involve thought and planning, and aren't just a wild frag-fest (although those are fun as well). Unlike FPSs, I'm equally entertained playing a RTS with someone in the same room as I am with someone online, or even against the computer. When my internet connection is out and I have the urge to play a game, chances are I'll be loading up Brood Wars for a three-hour game against the Protoss and Zerg.
These days, though, my main vise is EverQuest. Yes, I'm an Evercrack junkie. But, unlike what seems to be the majority of the players, I'm not terribly concerned about level advancement. I don't have the uberest gear, I'm not in a raiding guild, and I'm not flagged for the Plane of Time. I do, however, have a wide circle of close friends I enjoy hanging out with, and am part of a close-knit guild that's more like a family. Most of the female players I associate with feel the same way as I do, so I suppose it's the social interaction that we find most important.
Anyways, those are just my thoughts on the subject... *shrug*
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