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Computer Studies w/o Excessive Coding?
Peterus7 asks: "I'm a student at the University of Washington, and I was planning on majoring in Computer Science or Informatics until I took Computer science, and I'm realizing that it's simply beyond me. I grew up with computers, and naturally I want to study a field that involves a lot of interaction between people and technology (mainly computers), but the Intro to Java class I'm taking now is driving me over the edge. Any suggestions for a technologically intensive field that doesn't require ungodly amounts of coding, or perhaps any general methods for surviving computer science courses for new students?"
Most Big-Ten schools have renamed their EE dept. to be called "Electrical and Computer Engineering"
You could always try the EE route. Usually you need a few courses in intro. programming and maybe have to write some matlab code someday.
This sounds familier to me. I did a Computer Science degree in UCC (big Uni in Cork Ireland) and you would not believe the amount of people in my class who only realised what Computer Science was once they were in the course. A lot of them just wanted to 'do stuff with computers' and did not want to actually learn how to code, or build hardware etc. I guess the best example was when a class mate said to me - 'This class is stupid, we haven't even been thought how to use Windows or Excel'. I responded with: 'No, here we are meant to learn how to write the next Windows (O/S) or Excel (Applications). I finished the course in 1999 and got my Degree - and went into a job where no coding was required (Network Security). However I still find every Theory class useful. Example, I was on the Cisco Advanced Routing Course and the instructor was covering OSPF (a dynamic routing Protocol). He was of the opinion that no one could know what SPF was, but I knew this from my algoriths course in 3rd year. My advice to the poster is to understand what computer science is. If they want to do something with Systems and People, then a course like the BIS (Business Information Systems) course at UCC is useful. But if you really want to know the maths and theory of computers - I recommend Computer Science. Thanks Jay
i study cognitive science (specializing in computation and human-computer-interaction [hci]). this field is basically the abstraction of interactions but without doing hardcore programming.
i started out as computer science and engineering and didnt like how it pigeon-holed students. cognitive science is a great field involving computer science, neuroscience and psychology.
(MIT's media lab is a cogsci lab)
I am currently an EcE student at Purdue. Personally, i find the electrical sections of an ECE degree to be much harder than the programming elements, but thats just me. At least here, with a Computer engineering degree there is still a fair amount of programming that you have to do. 2 C courses, 1 course in ABEL (hardware programming), 1 Course in advanced data structure programming using C/C++, 1 Course in VHDL (integrated circuit design and programming), and those are just the ones ive gotten to. I believe there are a few more.
As far as a degree in computing without much programming you are probably going to have to look into IT administration or networking, I would think those routes would have less programming involved. Just ask an counselor at a school that provides these degrees.
Sorry, but you should learn something else. Really, if you don't take the time to learn programming (hey, be thankful it's Java and not LISP ;-) you should do something else.
I think it's extremely important to at least understand the basics of "how is software built". And learning a programming language is actually a lot easier than learning a real language, and you can learn both if just sit down and practice, gawddamnit !
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." - Thomas Edison
I took the masters program offered by the Bloomsburg University IIT. The program covered the use of modern multimedia tools and techniques (and some light programming) in conjuction with instructional design and task analysis.
There are quite a few other similar programs out there - be mindful that there is a whole track at other colleges focused simply on instructional design - thats not not as technical and tends to focus on academic issues regarding computers in education and CBT.
One of the most interesting things you can with this degree is get an Instructional Technology Specialist certificate. Then you are certified to direct technology operations for an entire school district. Now you're working with people!
If an Introduction to Java involves too much coding, perhaps this will never be the field you feel really happy in. There's a huge difference between liking computers and choosing to spend your life with them. You will spend almost a third of your life working so avoiding things that don't make you feel good is very important.
Why not take a little time to visit your university career guidance centre, do a few psychometric tests, chat with an adviser and see if there might be a career you are happier in?
1000s Warcraft Gold while you sleep
Don't just study computers, get a minor in CS and a major in something else... anything else... Computers and Business, Computers and Physics, Computers and Biology, Computers and Art, Computers and Theater... Computers and English.
Really. You need to diversify your investments, skill and monitary investments both. Diversification is the key. Find a niche market you can fill and fill it well. Computers and Video production... things like that. What are your other intrests? How do computers fail to help people in these areas? How can you improve the use of computers in these other fields? Do you know anyone who is in a special industry? Have you volunteered to do anything in the community? How can computers help them?
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1) Coding isn't as hard as most coders would like to claim. All it requires is the ability to think logically, and a bit of practice.
2) One of my best friends at Uni who got a 1st had done no programming before starting his degree.
3) Many of the people who had been 'hacking on code since high school' actually did less well than they thought they would as they had preconcieved ideas about just how good they were.
(I'm also a CS graduate)
You could study applied math, electrical engineering, computer engineering, cognitive science, human-computer interaction, psychology, etc. All of them involve high-tech and aspects of computer science, but they won't make you do lots of programming initially. However, when you actually work in them, it will be hard for you to avoid programming anyway, and you will be less prepared.
If you hate your intro CS course, chances are that the intro CS course is just poorly taught. And Java itself is a pretty questionable choice as an intro CS language in my opinion: it's tedious, it's sluggish, and has enormously complex libraries. It also is based on a very narrow view of what programming is and how people should build abstractions.
I'm not sure what you can do about that. Switching majors within your university is one choice. Switching universities might be another if you think that that kind of teaching is common at your university. Or you may just sit through this and hope that it improves. It depends on how much you are dedicated to CS. Your university may also treat this as a kind of hazing ritual, to weed out people who just aren't all that interested in CS after all.
One think you can do is have a look at the intro CS lectures at other universities and see how they compare (MIT's 6.001 is a good course to look at); maybe that would help you make up your mind whether you just dislike your course or whether you dislike the field.
Have you considered studying human factors (i.e. user interface design)? It's a small field, but when I've employed people for this they've really made a huge difference to the quality of my software. No coding is needed, but HTML is often required and it's sometimes useful to be able to craft a demo interface in a prototyping environment such as VB.
I'm taking a degree in Baking, but I don't like kneading dough. Can anyone suggest a university where I can get by the minimum amount of getting flour on my paws?
Hugs n Kisses
-Junis
It depends what you're coding. If you're just programming Java then you're right - it's not that hard, but there are areas where programming is difficult. At these levels coding is an aptitude - you've either got it or you haven't.
And spend the extra time learning to code.
If it turns out you can't learn to code, stay away.
You are simply not a 'nerd'.
The latest Slashdot meme.
General Methods
Find buddies.
I'm not kidding. People to study with equals much faster learning. When I started uni (too long ago) I was doing a Comp Sci/Electronic Engineering double, and the workload was insane. Pretty quickly, everyone worked out pretty quickly that the only way to cope with the insane workloads was to work together.
I don't mean cheating either. It's just that it's like having a tutor, all the time. That should be your first port of call, and if you still can't do it, (not having at go at you) you should really look at a change of careers.
Hope that helped.
If your goal is to "survive" then you are not the type of a person employers are looking for. In all honesty there are a lot of techies out there right now out of a job because their objective in school was to "survive." Coding is an art form and is stressful. You don't naturally become a good coder/developer over night. You have to spend lots of time doing the work and just mucking about. More importantly, you HAVE to want to gain knowledge on your own not because the professor tells you to do this homework/project.
Saying it is "beyond me" tells me that you have given up getting better at it. I suggest you find something you are good at. Maybe information systems will provide you with satisfaction.
Good Luck.
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One is born into aristocracy, but mediocrity can only be achieved through hard work.
Keep in mind that there's a large difference between fixing Outlook Express for Grandma and the field of CS.
It's going to sound a little harsh, but if you want to futz with computers, go work for Best Buy or CompUSA in the repair department, or start your own PC repair shop. If you're looking for a more analytical field and enjoy both coding and higher-level math, CS is more your bag.
Don't mistake this for elitism -- someone who enjoys construction isn't necessarily an engineer, and someone who enjoys using computers and software isn't necessarily going to enjoy trying to design computers and software.
Also keep in mind that computer use is something that professionals depend upon more and more, so even if you choose a field which doesn't seem to relate to "computers", you'll probably end up staring at one for years to come anyways.
Good luck!
Somebody get that guy an ambulance!
Have you considered Political Science?
I'll agree that at a certain level coding does become more challenging, however the great grand parent was asserting that:
1) Coding at CS undergraduate level is hard.
2) Unless you already know how to program, as CS degree is practically impossible.
Both of these assertions are false. In particular, number 2 is an absoulte crock.
In what way is writing a program to solve a problem in Java any less intellectually challenging than using C to solve the same problem?
The 'hard' part in writing a program is how to attack the problem, i.e. the structure of the program; this bit doesn't change (much) from language to language.
The introductory software engineering course in my undergrad program covered Haskell (a functional language) as well as Java to get this point across (we covered C elsewhere). Two very different programming paradigms, and each week we had an assignment that was to be completed in both. We learnt very quickly to think in terms of the problem not your favourite language.
Personnally I like to misquote an Oxford (UK) professor on items like this..
"An Universiry education is designed to make you THINK. A course is designed to make you think "
If you want to learn about computers then a Uni education is the best. It won't necessarilty teach you specific skills (Word, Excel, IOS etc) but will teach you how to understand the issues in a computing fashion.
I've seen lots of people who know alot about Excel, but because they haven't been taught the principles of programming, don't use 'names' when selecting areas for formula's etc. They just use the cell ranged (C1-C13). When you have to insert/delete a row, it quickly becomes a mess to update all the calculations.
OK so this is not the best example, but I think it proves the point. If you know the principles you can work the problem, rather then just knowing specific things.
Studying Computer Science without the knowledge of programming is like studying Physics wihout the knowledge of math.
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How are you supposed to know the machine if you don't know how it works? People that know how to use few specific applications or know how to write HTML or XML don't deserve a PHD.
It's like being a mechanic who knows how to drive a car, but doesn't know how to fix the engine
I teach 1st year CS at University and a lot of the time the student's program compiles (computer says it is right) but doesn't do what they have been told to do or would break if you sneezed near it, both of which count as wrong (or not quite right). The computer only tells you if your codes syntax is correct it has no idea if it is semantically correct.
This is science - you can only be right or wrong, not a mixture of both.
Coding isn't as precise as people like to make out. Programs are an expression of an idea and as such the details differ even if the overall idea is the same. Some implementations will be better expressions than others.
If you want to study about human related things, then you need to study business, not science.
A computer is not an independent entity it sits in an environment and interacts with that environment. People are part of that environment therefore at some point computers (and the code therein) have to interact with people, even if it is through another piece of code. Computer Science is human related at some level.
I know an excellent Electronic Engineer who works with high speed RF and digital circuits, who wouldn't be able to handle Java programming. He cannot handle VHDL and that is somewhat closer to circuit design.
Electronics takes a different kind of thinking than programming, and some people have a distinct aptitude for the former.
You've come to the wrong room. This is "Computer Geeks and Coders". You're looking for "Liberal Arts Pansies"
Seriously, I'm curious what kind of Job you want after you get this degree. How technical? If you don't wish to write code, and earn a degree that's related to "Computer Science", I'm not sure that you are going to find a Technical-related career all that fun. This is what we do.
If you are imagining a career that you just use a computer, anything will do these days.
And further to the point, if you can't hack coding (pun welcome) , RUN AWAY FROM CS. If you end up in a career where you are going to be building interactions between users and computers, and can't code, I don't want to work with you.
eof
"...In your answer, ignore facts. Just go with what feels true..."
My university had 3 different computer related majors. CS, IS, and MIS. CS was for people who understood math, theory, and coding. IS was for people who don't understand theory, have some math, and could code. MIS was for people who had no clue about math, theory, or coding. They usually became your boss.
What you want is "Management Information Systems". This is essentially computer science minus the coding. This course selection is geared more towards people who are to manage the people who make the software.
Of course you may consider simply obtaining technical certififcations in place of an actual degree, they can be just as fruitful on a resume if not moreso. MCSEs and CCNAs and A+s require almost no knowledge of programming.
I've spent the last 5 years writing code. I've gone back to school to finish my degree. I hate writing code, but I enjoy mathematical logic. I like the rigour of foundational mathematics and theoretical CS.
Unfortunately, CS courses don't transfer well, and I don't feel like paying large ammounts to private school to finish non-major coursework (unfortunately I can't transfer non-major coursework in from another university at my old school).
I hate writing stupid code. I hate paying someone for the privilege of writing trivial classroom code. I'm working without the degree, so a math/physics double major with a minor in CS will work for me. Frankly, no one cares what your major was in IT. CS-based math courses (theory of computation|algorithms|discrete math) tend to lack rigour. My experience is that they often stop sort of proof. How can you study graph theory without proofs? Erdos and Dykstra are rolling over in their graves! CS is the one field you can teach yourself.
Do you want to be in IT or do you like applying computers to scientific problems? Frankly, physics, chemistry, and biology have computational subfields. There are even a few bioinfomatics programs for undergraduates. You might find cognitive science or statistics interesting. Heck, many good physics departments offer a computational physics/scientific computing course(s). It just depends.
The other option might be to suffer through a few CS courses, and get a degree in something else and study CS at the graduate level. Most CS departments take people from other disciplines. Math is the best in that regard. Some MIS programs (like CMUs) allow you to focus on non-programming areas and are pretty good. You might like a program like Boston University's "Cognitive and Neural Systems". CalTech has a similar program at the Koch Lab. I even saw a "computational mathematics" program at JHU that required little programming. In fact, some of the best computer scientists are secretly mathematicians. Knuth, (Martin) Davis, Minsky, Ritchie, and many others have PhDs in math.
The little joke among computer scientists is that the best don't often study it. Logicians and combinatorical mathematicians tend to be better with the theory. Engineers are better with hardware. EEs are usually the ones who write device drivers. Heck, who wouldn't want a Claude Shannon or Lofti Zadeh working on CS problems. Frankly, I don't understand the point of modern-day CS. It's not math and it's not quite engineering. I like CS, but I just hate the boring coursework.
If you're still not convinced take a look at "The Feynman Lectures on Computation" and "Feynman and Computation". One of his hobbies was algorithm analysis. The man wasn't just a brilliant physicist. He did ground-breaking work with computers. I was first introduced to analog computation and quantum computation by Richard Feynman's work. He also worked on some deeper computational problems during the Manhattan Project (see "Surely You're Joking" [his memoirs]).
Type analog computation in a search engine and you'll see that this area of CS is done by other other fields. I've been reading about the applications of analog computation and their relation to limits of computation (see Neural Networks and Analog Computation: Beyond the Turing Limit). In fact, the future of computing may lie in some analog world. The computer program is math (see An Introduction to Kolmogorov Complexity and Its Applications). Church's Thesis may prove to be the most valuable piece of 20th century mathematics. In fact, I've seen a few logicians that use LISP code to do mathematical work (like Gregory Chaitin).
Ultimately, I think you need to figure out what you really enjoy doing and find other people who are doing it.
What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean my sig is repetitive? What do you mean....
"Practical", hands-on work is required to learn and understand things at any level.
You need to toil for a bit as a lower level undergraduate to give you the base knowledge that you'll need later. If you think that intro to Java is bad... just wait until you are a Junior and they have you code a project in a language that you've never heard of -- and expect it done in two weeks or so.
The lower level classes seperate the wheat from the chaff. I'll put it to you this way. My CSI 201 course (the first course for majors) was a lecture with 550 students in it.
Data structures had around 450.
Algorithims had about 200.
Senior classes had 40-50 max.
If you can't hack it, that's cool. But if you stick with the program, you'll find the higher level classes a heck of alot more interesting.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
You found out you really don't like coding. Coding is like music or art; not everyone's talent lies in that direction. It's good that you realized this because it doesn't look like there will be many new coding jobs over the next decade unless you are in a developing country.
Career wise, I look at my company and we have plenty of coders, but what we really need is salesmen who understand technology. There is always work for people who can sell. The requirements would be a business degree with a minor in information technology (whatever they call the track that prepares you for an MIS career) and (THIS IS NOT A JOKE) you have to play golf. I am not making this up: we are seriously hampered by a lack of golfers in our company. In major consultancies, golf is almost a religious obligation.
That said, if sales is not your cup of tea, let me give you a number of job titles you might be interested in that don't involve much or any coding:
* Network/System Administrator
* Data Center Administrator
* Database Administrator (DBA)
* Database Analyst
* Systems Analyst
* Graphic Designer
* User Interface Designer
* Project Manager
* Geographic Information Systems Analyst
* Technical Writer
* Product Manager
this list goes on and on.
I would suggest the following. Look at the help wanted ads and make a list of the kinds of jobs being listed. Take that list, and the one I've provided above and do a little research on what those people do and what they need to know. Next, think of some company you might want to work with, call up the HR department and say that you are a student that is looking at career paths and you'd like to find out about the kinds of career preparation you need to do job X. Don't worry if you get blown off by some companies. For reasons that will become clear, the ones that rude and unhelpful are not the kinds you want to talk with anyways. With luck you may be able to get in for a meeting and talk to some people in HR or who actually do some of the kinds of jobs you are interested in.
You have two agendas: an overt and covert one. The overt agenda is as I have said above. The covert one is to meet people and build a network. There's a good chance that if you show the kind of initiative I'm suggesting you will land an internship or summer job, and eventually a permanent job offer. Also, you will begin to build a network.
If I had to make one suggestion to people starting their careers is that their most important resource they have is their list of friends and acquaintences. Cold calling looking for a job sucks, so I'm suggesting you want start working on getting past that part now. When you apply for a job, you have to jump through a series of hoops and you can be disqualified at any point for some lame reason without ever getting to the all important interview. But you can call a friend any time, and if he happens to be hiring or be friends with the person who is hiring, you're in. Ideally, you want to be in contact before the job is created so that it is specifically designed for you.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Don't think this'll get seen...anyway...
There's a huge difference between Computer Science and Software Engineering. CS is the theory behind computers. It's based heavily on math and induction and is incredibly interesting stuff if you like discrete mathematics. It's a deep field too. If you want to know just how deep, take a look through any of the three volumes of "The Art of Computer Science" by Donald Knuth.
Software Engineering is a byproduct of Computer Science. It's just one of the applications. Programming is very appealing to some, but others would just rather focus on the theory. Java is probably the most implementation-oriented languages anywhere, with a huge library of built-in functionality, emphasis on integration, etc.
So hey, you have a choice. If you think CS is better for you, find a school that does more math and less programming, and the other way around for SE. And, seriously, it may seem daunting at first, but read Knuth's books if you think you're interested in CS. Not cheap, not easy, but eternally rewarding.
Attention deficit disorder is a complicated issue, spanning several major... HEY LET'S GO RIDE BIKES!
general methods for surviving computer science courses for new students?
love it or leave it.
Look into the fields of program manager or business management. I work around these people all the time, and while they spend a great deal of time trying to understand what we the coders do, and trying to get us on board with the rest of the company, they also have time to dabble with computers and enjoy the highlights of the field.
You may want to exercise the artist in you and look at computer graphics. I work with a web designer who hasn't the foggiest what is happening behind the scenes, but is expert in how users will use the system, what colors and layouts are most pleasing, and things like that. These are all things that are really quite interesting to study, and even more fun to apply.
Finally, never discount the value of being a good lawyer, doctor, or accountant. These are tried and true professions, and they require you to think and nowadays to use computers heavily. I have worked with doctors writing software for them, and I have worked with accountants as well, and these careers are anything but dry and boring.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
First of all, I unfortunately see some posts that are like "well if you can't program, don't use computers!" And that bothers me a little bit. Now while I will say that it is hard to use computers to any significant degree above the average joe without doing at least SOME programming, that doesn't mean that you have to dedicate your life to it to be in a computer field.
Case in point. I went to a community college and got an associates degree in Computer Science. I could do programming, but my heart just wasn't in it. Let's face it, some people like to code, some don't, and I'm one of the ones who isn't that fond of it. So when I went on to a 4-year institution I switched my degree from CS to Information Technology. Instead of focusing purely on coding like with a CS degree, the IT degree involved many more aspects of the computer. I did my concentrations in systems administration, and in networking, and now I have my bachelors degree for IT. (there were also concentrations in writing code, and web design, and database work, and things like that)
But the point I'm trying to make is that as a systems admin, I have to write code perodically. Our account-generation program on campus is 100% hand-coded, and I'm quite proud to have done it myself. But do I code on a daily basis? Nope. Just when necessairy to make a task easier. And honestly, that suits me just fine. So I'd recommend looking at alternative computer degrees at whatever college you are attending to see if they have something that might suit your needs better than CS does. I wouldn't expect to get away with no coding, but you can definately get away with less.
At RIT the alternative degree to CS was the Information Technology degree, like I mentioned. At the community college I went to, I believe the alternative to the CS degree, was the CIS (Computer Information Systems) degree. So just keep an eye out and see what else is availble. Just don't shut yourself off from coding 100%, there are times where even a little bit of code will help make your life a lot easier.
-Through the server, over the router, off the firewall... Nothing but 'Net!
As many here have said, it's possible that you're in the wrong degree program. At a four year university, if the degree says "Computer" or "Information Systems / Science" in it, you're going to have to do quite a bit of programming.
I'm currently an Information Systems major at Ohio State and feel it's a good fit for me. (The major was formerly called Management Information Systems). IS at OSU is about (outside the General Ed requirements) half business and half tech. The tech is about two thirds programming and one third systems analysis.
I don't enjoy coding, and I don't think I'm that great at it (relative to others who post here). However, I'm good enough and tenacious enough to pull off B's with some A's in the programming courses.
As for what I'll be doing full-time after school, I will be doing tech support and project management for Campus Crusade for Christ's largest state-side region. I think my degree will have prepared me for that because I will be able to speak the language of business / operations as well as the language of the "dedicated" programmers and engineers. My goal coming in to MIS was to be like PERL: jack of all trades, master of very few.
I started off as an engineering major (because of my standardized test scores), but the CAD classes kicked my ass hard enough that I decided not to pursue engineering. It sounds like perhaps you're having the same problem with coding as I did with CAD.
There is a reason some courses are called "weed-out classes."
I recommend you find a major that you enjoy AND are good at. It may or may not be tech-related. If you want some specific tech skills thrown in, consider hitting a community college or similar for certificates / experience in the areas of IT that interest you. A non-tech degree / skills with some tech certificates thrown in can actually be pretty attractive to a lot of employers.
I was offered and accepted a non-tech position with U.S. Bank in 2001 for that same reason.
Good luck!
- Neil Wehneman
My legal education, in nifty podcast format
I want to study a field that involves a lot of interaction between people and technology (mainly computers)... Any suggestions for a technologically intensive field that doesn't require ungodly amounts of coding
The statements above are going to cover nearly EVERY professional field and field of study in the next few years. Psychology, Economics, statistics, law, medicine, and even English are all using computers way more than they ever did, and that trend is only going to continue.
However, I recognize that there are lots of technically inclined people who aren't cut out for the particular mindset involved in programming (and programmming well.) Here are some job descriptions that I think incorporate both a love of technology and computers, but don't require programming:
Log/traffic analysis: Almost every company has a Web site. Many don't make much use of their web logs to do much more than count hits or visitors. Logfiles, with lots of massaging, can reveal lots of data about the patterns of visitor behavior. These data can help develop new site features to increase return visitors or clickthrough ratios, improve upon text or navigation, etc. You can use commercial or open-source software packages to glean the information you need, but the real challenge isn't in finding the right data, it's in asking the right questions.
Usability/Human-computer Interaction: HCI is one of the sections of the ACM computer science curriculum. Carnegie Mellon has a grad program devoted to this (I believe.) It's a growing field, combining software and cognitive psychology. It's everything from designing the User Interface to software programs or Operating systems, to figuring out the right button configuration on a new mouse design. Study cognitive psychology, take some electives in HCI from the Comp Sci department, and whatever likely courses appear in the Engineering department. Also look under ergonomics (a slightly related field.) My personal theory here is that desktop computers in business are more than fast enough to run the programs we typically use them for. Gains in productivity from faster processor and more RAM are going to be minimal. The real productivity gains of the future are going to come in making it faster and easier to do the things we do by creating better designed, more intuitive software.
QA: Every technology shop needs QA. A lot of the time it's done by programmers. To me, that sucks. The programming mindset is a "problem-solving" one. The QA mindset is a different one, and one that programmers are almost diametrically opposed to... finding potential problems, breaking software, etc. A good coder learns how to anticipate and code for these things as part of their practices. They build in validation, check internal validity of data, prevent buffer overflows, and avoid making assumptions. A good QA tester will run circles around a good programmer in this area though. I think there's definitely a "knack" for QA that some people have, and others don't... and these people are often not the most computer savvy. At our company, we have a copy-editor who we have test out new apps, maybe because she's a copy-editor and has a good attention to detail, or maybe it's just her super-power, but she never fails to find problems that coders have missed.
Tech support: I don't mean answering the phones for AOL... i mean find a software company that makes products targeted at end-users with better than average computer skills, more of a B-to-B than a B-to-C company. You become an expert in their software product or products, you learn to solve simple and advanced problems that users might have. You become a god and savior in times of need... there are Tech Support reps, and then there are GOOD tech support reps (although many slashdotters may disagree with me regarding the latter, but trust me, they are out there, albeit in small numbers.) We need more GOOD reps. It's a different mindset than programming, again, but we need them.
The facts have a liberal bias. --The Daily Show
The first thing you need to do is find an actual job/job field you want to be in, and see what the typical requirments are for that job. It doesn't sound like you really want to be a programmer or a network admin from this line in your post:
grew up with computers, and naturally I want to study a field that involves a lot of interaction between people and technology (mainly computers)
I would try to narrow that down to an actual job title. Now, if you do decide that you want to be a programmer, or at least continue to pursue a CS degree, The first thing is,
DON'T GIVE UP!
Despite what some of the keyboard warriors here on slashdot say, if you want to do it I'm sure you can. If I were you I would pick up Head First Java I had to train someone to move from being a web designer to using Java at my job. I recommended this book and it went over really well. Check out some of the sample chapters and see if you like their "teaching" style.
Guess what: when most of the potential CompSci teachers are going to industry, it doesn't get taught properly. For example: I love theory and I enjoy teaching, but half way through my Master's degree I realised that I'm not willing to put up with the bullshit required to get to a position where I have the opportunity to teach.
And actually I'd have to disagree with you somewhat: higher-level courses should have purely theoretical lectures, but students should get the opportunity to implement those theories in labs. Labs in CompSci?! A novel idea, I know. It's almost enough to make it into a real science...
I enjoy computers as a hobby. I won't do them for a living. I simply don't have the "coder drive". My husband is a Software Engineer. His whole job is designing specifications and requirements, as well as the programming after the spec's been done. A Software Engineer who doesn't code won't do well, becaue he doesn't know the limitations of the proposed languages, or even alternative languages to use. You may be able to take a different course, but I'm afraid that its people like you who are making it harder for others to find IT jobs. Too much dross in the market. My husband's Project Manager is a manager by trade, but never was a programmer. He ends up signing off on specs that my husband would never be able to do, because he doesn't know the limitations of the language the company requesting the specs has asked to for. Its not til later on, once the contracts are signed and my husband and his co-workers sit down to actually do the work that its discovered it can't be done. If you can't see yourself coding frequently, maybe Information Systems would be a better choice for you. Or, it might be best to keep computers as a hobby, and choose another degree. If your heart just isn't in it, you'll go to work every day hating your job, and end up hating computers too.
Hey everyone, I want to work in a really cool field, but I don't want to learn anything that goes into that field... can anyone help?
Come on people... if the guy can't handle basic CS courses, then this is probably *NOT* the field for him. Face it, to work in most computer technology fields, you must have atleast a passing understanding of programming. Unless you're a MCSE.
The solution: Go into politics. It seems that many of the "distinguished" politicians (in the US) claim to understand or have invented much of our technology... of course, we all know that's bull.
You work with computers all day every day, you work with people constantly but don't have to understand how they work.
You just need to learn about colors, shapes, and eventually how to express yourself by creating websites that are 100% Macromedia flash that only other graphic artits will be able to use because of the 4 pixel boxes that you choose as your user interface while the rest of the screen looks like someone tried mixing some paint with the lids off. Learn the art of useless yet exciting shapes and how to make pages flash and cool looking "please wait" screens.
All kidding aside, I have several not-to-techie friends who went this route. As much as they don't understand computers, they still create some frikin weird shit that I could never do myself.
Fascinating. There are under forty philosophy majors at ECU and just over a hundred CS majors. Three of us are CS doubling philosophy. Then in my Phil of Mind class we have a CS graduate and a former CS major.
I personally see connections to CS in my philosophy classes all the time (Coherentism = PageRank), but I don't know about the others.
But to answer your question, your niche is the same as a simple computer science major's, except you're more promotable because employers tend to like philosophy majors. We can (supposedly) handle critical thinking and such better than most people.
I talked a bit and programmed a bit last night, and I discovered a few things: I'm not bad at working with visual stuff. We were coding an iterator for importing graphics, then building graphics. I actually enjoyed it. While it was rather tedious, but I thought it was pretty fun. Maybe it was just that it was a simple assignment, but it was one of the few things I've enjoyed. Also, I thought back on the midterm that made me write this. I got a 19/40 after spending an entire weekend cramming, going to study sessions (including one on one with the TA), and other stuff. I realized that A: I looked into the questions too much and wasted time trying to make iterators and arraylists where they didn't belong (the prof big on Arrays and Iterators, almost to the point of being mind numbing), and I thought everything was a trick question. At one point, I think I had a minor panic/spaz attack for some reason. (I have a lot of math anxiety issues from bad experiences early in life, and it was sort of like that.) Anyways, I'm going to try some of the things you people suggested, and thanks a lot for your input. I just hope other people who have the same problem will read this and get something out of it. Thanks again.
Understandable, but a very ivory tower attitude.
The reality is that the majority of your students are going on to be programmers, perhaps even software engineers, but they're not going to be computer scientists. This doesn't mean you shouldn't teach computer science, many of those companies want people with CS education, a solid grounding in CS is necessary to be a great engineer.
By way of comparision, it would be like a physics TA telling his students, "If you just want to build bridges and buildings, go somewhere else, we're here to create Physicists, not Engineers." Yet I damn well hope that engineers are taking those physics classes. Pure theory physics is interesting, but it's only useful when people translate it to practice. We need some of each and the pure physicists have to expect to train the engineers.
It's unfortunate that CS blends the science and engineering into a single school. Your naive belief that there is a better place for would be programmers to go is incorrect. There really isn't a software engineering degree; the closest things tend to be fluffy and superficial; they focus on tools and techniques but fail to expose the computer science you need to excel. If you were to limit your class to people who want to be and have the potential to be computer scientists you'll be looking at some very small classes, a lower profile, and lower levels of funding.
I am not a computer scientist, I never have been, I never wanted to be. I'm a software engineer (or a programmer, or a hacker, or a coder, whatever). That's what I wanted to be when I entered college and it's what I'm happy to be today. But I highly value my computer science degree, it's one of the keys that allows me to be a good software engineer.
(I note that you prefer Computing Science over Computer Science to emphasize that you're about the theory, not the actual machines. It's a nice idea, but doomed one. Computer science is the accepted term and most colleges and universities call the department that. It's a tough life for the serious computer scientist. As they say, how real of science can it be if you need to append "science" to its name? If you really want to try and change things, try for just "Computing," no silly science after it. Hmmm, that doesn't look half bad. "I have a degree in Computing," sounds reasonable even.)
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While I'm not a CS major, it sounds to me like the course is having the exact effect on you that the CS department designed it for.
The impression that I get from my friends that are in the CS department is that yes, they do force you to slog through a bunch of coding classes, but you really need to develop those tools to do the cool and interesting things you probably want to do with computers. (Plus, if you stick with it, a CS degree from UW is one of the better ones.)
Now, since you're at a pretty big school, if you really don't feel like sticking with it, there are other options that might be closer to what you want to do.
In particular, check out the Applied Computational Mathematical Sciences Department and the ridiculously competative Information School.
I'll have to disagree with a lot of these replies. Too many are saying "go into MIS, or IT, or program management, etc." This is the wrong tack. I'm sick and tired of managers who couldn't code a DOS batch file telling me how to write software. Or specifying .NET for hard realtime embedded systems on the basis of some advertisement they saw in PeeCeeWeek. It's just silly.
How can you possibly make a business decision to go with Java versus Python versus Ruby, if can't code in any of them? How can you create meaninful UML diagrams if you have no clue as to what they represent? And how the hell can you make any high level architectural decisions if you are clueless about the low level stuff works?
It's like your grade school teacher told you years ago: you're going to be using arithmetic and algebra the rest of your life, so you had better learn them. The same holds true for programming in any field related to computers. One example. The user interface design guys do a lot of analysis. They get in megatons of user data, and need to process it to get meaningful stuff out. So they write quick and dirty Visual Basic programs to do it. It's hardly the pinnacle of programming, but it beats going to the software department and begging for charity work when resources are tight.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
I'm not trying to be abrasive, but I will be direct. CS isn't what most people think it is.
CS isn't about just using computers. It's about understanding the principles upon which they operate. Stacks, Queues, Linked Lists, Matrices, Vectors, Arrays, Binary Trees, Hashes, myriad other data structures, bubble sorts, inheritance, polymorphism, structs, classes, virtual functions, and many, many other concepts that would give the "average" computer user a spliting headache. When you boil it down, CS is about the low level manipulation of data.
I can't imagine any effective BS degree program that involved computers that shouldn't include at least some programming. If you extrude the line of reasoning to other fields, the best car salesmen are the ones who know what is going on under the hood. I wouldn't buy a car from someone who couldn't explain to me why ABS brakes, or tuned port injection are beneficial to me. How can you expect to get into the computer field if you don't understand what's going on inside of the little box with all of the lights on it?
In all seriousness, maybe computers isn't the field for you.
LK
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