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IBM Offers to Help Sun Open Up Java
dave writes "ESR has opened the issue of
pressuring Sun to open source Java, and today IBM throws in their own
commitment toward this end. IBM has published an open letter to
Sun, proposing that the two companies collaborate on an independent project
to open source Java, saying that IBM is ready to provide technical resources
and code for the open source Java implementation while Sun provides the open
source community with Sun materials, including Java specifications, tests and
code."
Just playing Devil's Advocate here: IBM sounds touchy-feely about open source but how would they react if Sun were to offer to help IBM open up AIX?
Trolling is a art,
This is a win-win situation for IBM. If Sun goes for it, IBM gets it's hand in the development of an open implementation of Java. If Sun doesn't, IBM can say that they tried. Either way, IBM appeals to the open source community.
As for Sun, it's almost lose, lose. If Sun goes for it, they lose complete control over Java, which is a cash crop for them. If they don't, they look stingy to the open source community, and alienate a lot of us.
Poor sun, nice IBM. .
This statement is false.
and IBM may likely do it, to put their AIX stuffs behind Linux, given what they have already done.
It makes a lot of business sense for IBM to get open source Java, especially for their application server space.
Hey, that's my password you are typing
What changed, specifically?
IBM are being very intelligent. They are moving with the market.
It used to be that everyone in the IT world was closed and proprietary. OSS is changing that, and IBM know it. IBM are going with the flow, not fighting it.
So does this mean the Slashdotters who claimed that ESR damaged the open source community via his letter to Sun will now retract their views? It seems we're closer to an open source Java as a result of his opening salvo (little gun-toting humor there) than we were before he wrote his letter.
Perhaps they acknowledge that if a standard is desired, they should contribute to a popular JVM rather than keep working on one themselves. I think that's a good way of thinking for OS.
I think most people, and obviously IBM, are missing some key points to why Sun treats Java how it does.
Things are tight fisted because Sun wants a solid, CONSISTANT platform. This was a MAJOR REASON for the lawsuit that they fought and WON against Microsoft and their VM implementation.
Opening it up not only kills that idea (anyone can alter the platform specifications for whatever selfish reasons), but it would undermine all of the fight they have put up at this point.
"When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
With the eclipse project, Sun felt left out. Now, it is time for them to put up or shut up, and if they refuse and IBM decides to open source their own stuff regardless, Sun has no one to blame but themselves.
Now a days, they are for open standards? The same guys that opened up the PC architecture, right? in early 80's or wait, say 20 years ago? As far as I know, that is the biggest open standard look how it changed the world, look at the companies it built. Whenever people talk about how IBM acts as they see fit, it is usually history lessons that they read about the 60's and 70's...
------ Curiosity killed the cat. {satisfaction brought it back | it didn't die ignorant | lack of it is killing mankind
Well, they already give you Java for free. If they make it open source, they might cut development costs, and also get much better attitude from community. I don't see any reason why not to go OS. They still could control it - no one will prevent them to add any new feature.
No sig today.
Also IBM has not too much to lose. Sure, they produce and sell a lot of software. But they are still one of the leading hardware companies and are moving more and more towards a consulting and service oriented business model. So what do they have to lose ? Some unsold AIX lincenses ? DB2, Domino and WebSphere can or will soon be able to run as well on a RS6K machine (or what they are called this week) running Linux than on a RS6K machine running AIX. Sure, AIX still has a lot to offer Linux does not, but for that they still will move a machine with AIX.
*Cough* OpenOffice *Cough*
Does anyone actually think this is actually gonna happen? Sun has always impressed me as a Microsoft wannabe. The only reason they are currently allying themselves with Linux is because "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
Oh, bullshit.
When Microsoft wants to include a new technology (such as their web browser), they integrate it in such a way that you are forced to use it, can't replace it with something else, and end up using it for unrelated functions whether you want to or not. And half the interface is undocumented and inaccessible to people outside of Microsoft.
Sure, you can download and install your own web browser, but IE is always there, sucking up resources, no matter what you do.
When Sun wants to integrate something new into Java, the JCP develops a standard API for accessing it. Sun develops or licenses their own implementation of it, but allows you to use any implementation you choose so long as it implements the standard. Other VM distributors are free to replace Sun's implementation with their own. In fact, it's remarkably easy to be completely unaware of which implementation you are using.
If Microsoft had developed a standard web browsing API which allowed you to swap out IE in favor of Mozilla, and allowed computer manufacturers the right to do so on preinstalled machines if they chose, nobody would be complaining about the IE integration.
Well, that's exactly how Sun would have chosen to do it, based on their track record. They make it remarkably easy to swap out portions of the runtime library with alternate implementations.
ZFS: because love is never having to say fsck
What about Star/OpenOffice? I think one of the big things you need to make sure you take into account is the fact that Sun is a a large business which is supported by some of their products like Java. It seems as though Sun is very open to the idea of open-source, but at the same time from a business perspective, they probably question the changes to their ability to function as the type of business they are if one of their flagship products is basically taken away from them. Most companies which actively pursue open-source are significantly smaller than Sun with, therefore, less overhead. And I can't think of any of the large corporations that support Linux (like IBM or Corel) that have actually opened up a technology which is a major source of income for them.
I don't try to be right, I just try to make people think
IBM doesn't NEED Sun's help with providing the software, but without a commitment from Sun IBM would be in the same situation with them as with Microsoft: They can change the specs whenever they feel like it to keep their competitive advantage over other tools.
Frankly I see IBM's comments as an ingenious PR move. Either Sun opens Java, and it will be a great PR win for IBM and great for business, or Sun doesn't in which case it's a big PR win for IBM towards customers (look guys, we're promoting open standards, but Sun just doesn't want to play ball - do you REALLY want to get tied in to a company like that?)
This is playing to an audience (us) when the writer knows that the addressee won't go along. Otherwise a private letter would suffice. It's just a statement of position, don't expect anything to come of it.
Do open letters ever achive their overt goals?
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
C is pretty darn portable (if you do non-portable things like call system routines, that's not the case, of course).
When has it happened that an open-source language has become fragmented and incompatible? Perl? Tcl? Python?
Maybe the *BSD split some years back is an example of this. But in this case it seems clear that the egos of some of the participants took precedence over the common good. This also happened at a time when there was not as much at stake (BSD was small potatoes compared to Solaris, etc).
Has the Linux core fragmented? MySQL? GCC?
Well, okay, we do we xemacs vs GNU emacs. But these are rare exceptions.
This idea that open source = fragmentation and chaos is just Microsoft FUD.
The OpenSource crowd has never been happy with the lack of total freedom presented by either Java or .Net, and thus campaign for the opening of both systems. There are opensource versions of both Java and .Net in heavy development, but why are we bothering? Why dont we just come up with our own Java/.Net like language, which we control, which is under the BSDL and thus an Open Standard? Why are we constantly clamouring for the owners of the systems to give us a break, when we could probably go off on our own, create our own language which is jsut as good, allows ups to stipulate our own restrictions on the usage, and best of all, we are not beholden to ANYONE because its ours 100%. While big business sometimes claims to innovate while masking the fact it bought the advancements in, there has been little innovation in the Open Source arena (dont flame, im stating it as i see it), and a lot of rushing to get where someone else has been previously.
What changed, specifically?
IBM lost the OS wars, so selling OS's became a minor part of IBM's business. Sure, there is still a niche market for AIX, but it is pennies for an outfit like IBM.
So, IBM had nothing to lose if it jumped on the Linux bandwagon. In fact, it has been a boon because they've been able to market one OS for their entire server range from the i386s, to the PPCs to the mainframes. And they've been able to pitch a single unified vision around Linux, in particular, IBM hardware running Linux, Apache, and WebSphere.
Also, IBM has understood that the commodity OS market is not the place to be, rather they have a very profitable consulting division (IBM Global Services) that loses nothing and gains everything by promoting Linux.
All in all, hitching its fortunes to Linux has been a very, very smart move on IBM's part. The alternative might have been to end up like Sun!
JAVA was/is
If it gets open sourced someone will co-op it, embrace-extend it, borg it, whatever and its multiplatform, WORA nature will be forever gone.
I use linux and I have never had a problem with downloading and installing Java.
This is about some overgrown children in the OS community crying to get their own way.
Steve
Exactly. I spent some time contracting at IBM, and that's the main thing I learned about their business model: all the software stuff they do has the goal of selling IBM hardware. That's a plan that plays quite well with open source / free software.
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
IBM ceased to be a computer company.
No, really. IBM was a company that sold big iron, and they did it for years. But then the market shifted to minicomputers, and IBM suffered. And the market moved to microcomputers, and IBM found itself unable to compete with Compaq and later Dell, while the high-margin parts of the system were monopolized by Microsoft and Intel.
So IBM regrouped, and became a serivces company. Oh, sure, they kept a number of legacy buisnesses together; there's still bits of a computer company still in IBM. But, in the main, they're a services company. And the thing about being a services company is that the more your customers spend on the hardware and software, the less of their IT budget they have left to spend on your services.
IBM wants cheap, standardized software and hardware the same way your local restaurant wants cheap, high-quality meat and produce. The restaurant isn't selling you eight ounces of cow muscle and a potato for $20; it's selling you the services of the cooks, the waiters, the dishwashers, and the rest.
Let me get this straight: is this an attempt to get Sun to cooperate on creating an open source Java implementation? I don't see any mention of opening up specifications, or even the to-be-developed implementation becoming the reference implementation.
If so, what's all the fuss about? We already have several efforts underway that implement Java as OSS. Why does'n IBM join them?
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
What changed? In the mid nineties they lost half of their value on the stock market in mere days. Many, many people were prophesizing the death of IBM.
Now, 10 years later, such a prediction seems laughable. How could the mighty IBM ever go under?
What changed? IBM got out of the "computer product" industry and moved into the "computer services" industry. To be sure, they'll still hapily sell you IBM hardware and software. But they will just as happily sell you someone else's hardware and software.
Of all the big name computer companies, I think IBM is currently closest to the ideal of a free software company. Think about it. If you make all your money doing system engineering, installation, support, custom development, etc, it makes *no sense whatsoever* to rely on proprietary software.
Of course, IBM is a big company and they have several profitable divisions that still rely on proprietary products. However, those of us who have been around the block a time or two can see a huge difference in the way they play the game.
I reckon that 100 years from now IBM will still be huge and that people will be wondering what all the fuss was about that Micro-whatever company.
With regard to ESR: I've seen him speak and I'm not nearly as impressed with ESR as ESR is impressed with ESR.
With regard to Open Source Java: IBM doesn't want to own Java. IBM DOES want to be able to compete with Microsoft, which it can't very well do while Sun effectively stifles things (via JCP and other ways). The answer to this is Open Source Java.
Currently, in order to evolve at a mariginally reasonable rate (in the J2EE space), competitors such as IBM and BEA have to get together outside of the JCP and come up with a standard they agree on. Once this is done they can introduce it through the JCP and try and get the others to support it. If Sun doesn't like it, they can use their controlling power to stop it or mire it indefinitely. Not effective. If this happens, the fact that the two largest J2EE vendors support the initiative makes it a pseudo-standard, which isn't as good as being a part of J2EE, but is better than not having feature X, Y, or Z that Microsoft has.
I've been waiting for Sun to open up Java for a long time. If you're giving it away for free, their is little purpose in keeping it closed source, especially when other people have JVMs out there, too. The only point of freeware v. open source is that people must use your software or visit your website to get it, but that's not the case with Java. I hope Sun goes for it.
Better question: Does anyone actually think this is real?
Let me see if I understand this... IBM, a company that does virtually nothing, other than advertise, through the news media, issues an "Open Letter" to a fierce rival via what appears to be a small-time Linux news site.
Oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Buy the President
Without a doubt. I can't help but smile at the whole thing. I am sure Sun would rather die than allow IBM to 'help' them.
Maybe IBM is doing this as underhanded payback for Sun's "offer of assistance" moving IBM to the so-called Java Desktop a month or two back.
As for OSS Java from what I understand, creating the VM is a well understood engineering problem. OSS VMs and compilers already exist. The problem is that a complete implementation of Java includes an immense number of classes that would have to be implemented for real application compatibility.
The fact is that ESR knew darn well, like IBM and alot of other people in the industry (even at Sun), that market pressures were going to force Sun to consider open sourcing Java no matter what. Rather than work with Sun, or even make humble suggestions, he demands that Sun open their Java knowing darn well that no matter what happens - he will get the credit.
If Sun caves in, he gets credit ... if Sun doesn't - they loose in the marketplace and he can say "I told you so" and get credit. I gotta give it to him, it was a shrewd move on his part, but I think he's a jerk because he exploited their situation for his own personal gain and ego at everyone elses expense.
I am not supprised though, this is not the first time ESR has dome somthing like this, for example, it is little known but he happens to be a studied expert on the foundations of property law. So when people talk about intellectual property - like it's real property he knows darn well it is a bogus lie, and a fraud. But, rather than jsut say that, instead he does just the opposite and impliticly puts down his peers (like RMS) and talks about how he believs in intellectual property because hs is a "libertarian". Well bullshit, IMHO he believs in nothing other than what servs him at others expense. I think ESR is untrue to his nature and we have all suffered because of it.
otherwise it would not have been an open letter to the public. By writing in personable, reasonable, friendly, and customer-oriented language, he's made himself into the "good guy" and portrayed himself as a part of the open-source movement. Now he's put Sun in a PR tight spot: "Do you support open source or not?" This isn't a proposal, I think it's pressure from the biggest of all blues and a clever political framing of the situation.
:)
Can anyone see why IBM would want Sun to open-source Java though? Then again, if you know, you probably work for IBM so can't say.
It's because they are not really attacking the shrink wrap software market. How many IBM products do you see in local stores?
IBM are in the solutions market, where you deliver value to companies. The software is only part of the equation.
A lot of companies don't want to RTFM or go off to newsgroups to keep their solutions up and running. They want experts who know their way around.
Also, if IBM can avoid the M$ tax and keep control of the software to their clients (so OS upgrades don't break their solutions), that's all the better.
but is there an "Open Source" C? or C++?
I mean, these are Open Standards right? So the Language spec is not really OSS, but I can down load it from ANSI and implement it if I like, right?
So, why doesn't somebody just get the freely available Java spec and implemented? Isn't that what the GCJ is doing? Isn't that Open Source? Why doesn't everyone whine to IBM to Opensource THEIR implementation of the spec, or BEA JRockit or Apple?
Sun acts as the keeper of the flame for the various Java specs, in concert with the JCP (which is an open organization BTW). Those specs are free to read and implement. FWIW, I think Sun has done a great job of keeping Java open and compatible, especially when MS tried to "embrace and extend" in '97 - '99.
I say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Never by hatred has hatred been appeased, only by kindness - the Buddha
I personally think that Java VM is a pretty nice architecture (maybe not counting the string immutability and problems with expressing dynamically typed languages and multiple inheritance). I believe that it would have been a truly brilliant idea to release Java VM under a copyleft license, before the Parrot development had started. As much as I would love to believe otherwise, it could be too late right now. But I am really looking forward, as it might turn out to be a great hobby project and a powerful new tool in the GNU system arsenal. I am sure that IBM is exactly the company who might help Java the most. Let us not forget that it is crucially important to Sun as well as IBM to undermine .Net and C# soon to be ambiguously
provided by Microsoft.
I am sure that as soon as
IBM joins Sun with that common goal,
Mac will follow not long after that.
This is great news for every one of us.
We will remember this day
for years.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
First, Sun doesn't sell Java. IBM isn't asking them to give up a revenue product.
IBM contributes to Linux (kernel and otherwise), they contribute to (and ship) Apache. IBM contributes to open source all over the place!
IBM has ~tons~ of open software http://alphaworks.ibm.com/ (not everything here is free, but check the place out!)
IBM is a real friend to the open source community. Having Java in the public domain would (in their opinion) help everyone.
If you want to put your anti-Redmond hat on, why should IBM and Sun and Blackdown and Gnu all have competing JVMs? Let open source pull in the best of breed and continue to improve the platform.
Open sourcing Java would let people beyond Sun fix bugs. It would let projects (potentially) merge. I see tons of benefit.
Sun gets more help with a product that they get no money for anyway... and they get tons of community relations points (which they need).
Agile Artisans
The Java spec is completely open, there are no undocumented details. IBM should make their own open source implementation if that's what they want.
Or... if they really don't want do do all that, they should just buy out Sun and open it up that way.
If there's anything I can't stand, it's people who complain about how other people won't do things the way that _they_ would want rather than spending their time trying to actually *DO* the things that they want.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Yes, Sun could offer Java under a dual license. However, once IBM takes the GPL version and adds all the performance tricks from their JVM, the GPL version will jump ahead of the proprietary, and no one will want to use the latter.
Even if IBM would agree to let Sun take their contributions dual (which is possible), most of the open source community wouldn't be very happy about it. Part of the point of going open is to gather the support of the larger community.
Another possibility is to BSD it, in which case everyone probably will contribute under BSD and let Sun take the code in, but that would mean MS could use everything, and Sun would never accept that.
Sig:Why copyright isn't a fundamental human right