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Mind Over Machine
broKenfoLd writes "Monkeys moving robotic arms by manipulating a cursor on a computer screen, simply by thinking about it? Mice who cause their water tube to dispense some refreshing H2O just by wishing it? Signal processing and decoding has long been a dream of Matrix fans and lazy system administrators for years, and science is amazingly keeping up! Popular Science's Carl Zimmer has written a fascinating piece documenting recent progress in decoding brain signals and interpreting commands issued from thoughts alone. If you heard a single violin playing Beethoven's 5th, you would be able to tell what piece of music was being played even though the rest of the orchestra was not heard. In the same way, by monitoring a relatively few neurons, computers can recognize patterns and allow programming based on these patterns to say, know if a mouse is thinking about pushing his water lever.
You can pass the time waiting for Matrix-style video games and motionless system adminstration/utilization by reading the full article."
It would be interesting to have a cell-phone implant. You can call your friends and relatives, and always get them and know what they are thinking. And MAN, it would get annoying!
How about living in a way that our bodies were actually meant to. Exercising, working with our bodies, and communicating in person. Eventually we will just be sitting at home, in a lazy-boy with our brains plugged in to a network and all work from home. But, that would suck!
http://github.com/gbook/nidb
Even in a fast paced video game, how accurate are you with a mouse? Especially after all the sugar/caffeine? 95% is astounding.
If my answers frighten you, stop asking scary questions.
Popular Science has always been crazy as hell science. I am still wating for my flying car and hotel room on Mars that was predicted in the magazine when I read in in junior high in the 70's.
Popular Science, ya gotta luv'em. I just wish the track record was a bit better, after reading about the nextgen dirigibles off and on for years I'm just a bit disapointed, that sounded like so much fun. Probe in my head? Less so.
;-) but still...
Mod me down, off topic troll
So, the average person thinks of sex like every 4 seconds. The traffic on one of these brain networks would have more porn than the internet.
Evolution or ID?
Ever seen clockwork orange? Very deep stuff.
I'd like to see a simple switch based on brain activity that would toggle on during sexual thought/arousal and toggle off in the absence of that.
Jesus sweet fucking christ I sure as hell don't want to see that! What the hell are you thinking?
Children could then be taught that if somebody's "face button" is glowing when that person is asking them to [get in the car|go play with a cute pet|have some candy|etc.], to run and get help.
Why don't we just teach children that when a "person is asking them to [get in the car|go play with a cute pet|have some candy|etc.], to run and get help" without the face-button shit?
GMD
watch this
Of course. And when this project becomes successful, we can implement it on convicted murders, robbers, terrorists, communists, tax-evaders, cheaters, liars, ...
But we shouldn't stop there, the ultimate goal is to prevent crime. So we should implement it on everybody, just in case even a law-abiding citizen starts having impure thoughts about the validity of the president-for-life's reign on the country.
ill be more impressed when they have hooked it up so that when you grab the glass you will feel the pressure building rather then going by a visual clue...
basicly we need this device to talk back to the brain, not just listen to it.
comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
They talk about using this for people with disabilities. This would be great for sure but ... interpret though.
;-)
they say in the article that they need to "train" the computer beforehand (no pun intended)
before it can
My question, which was not answered in the article, is: Are every brain emmitting the same signals for the same action
or do they need to "train" the program for every new user (monkey)? I would think that every individual have a somewhat
unique "brain signature" and if it is the case, how can a totally impaired person train a computer to use an artificial arm or
leg or whatever if anyway he isn't able to move a "joystick"?
Can the computer associated anything as an input to compare with the brain activity?
Could (let's say ) S. Hawking program the system by blowing in a tube harder or smoother for example?
Am I clear?
I'd rather be sailing...
The fact is, you can probably hook up whatever device to whatever portion of the brain (e.g. an artificial arm to you toenail brain area) and after some practice the subject will learn now to move it. So when they say "we don't see the brain as a mysterious organ anymore" they are telling you a bold-face lie.
Does the mouse get water by thinking about water, or by thinking something completely different that happens to trigger the machine? Once he figures it out, he'll do it again when he's thirsty.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
I'd like to see a simple switch based on brain activity that would toggle on during sexual thought/arousal and toggle off in the absence of that. The application I have in mind would be taking convicted sexual predators (rapists, child molesters, etc.) who are being released back into society, and permanently affixing something to their face that would glow when they're thinking that way. Children could then be taught that if somebody's "face button" is glowing when that person is asking them to [get in the car|go play with a cute pet|have some candy|etc.], to run and get help.
Sounds double-plus-good to me.
Also sounds like those studies they did recently for "latent racism". Studies that were fatally flawed because they didn't take into account that people who are painfully aware of racism and who try to avoid it at all costs - including the appearance of being racist - are the same people who were labelled as being racist in the study.
Please, don't go down the thought-crime avenue. Actions are what count - not thoughts. And as noble as your goals might appear to be to you, consider this:
If you have a predisposition towards doing something (whether child molestation, smoking, drinking or breathing), it takes conscious thought to not do that act. And that thought will trigger the same "flashing button" that deciding to do that act will.
Try thinking about not breathing without thinking about breathing. It ain't going to happen.
Coming soon - pyrogyra
Just because you're controlling something with your mind doesn't mean it will be "think something, and a machine makes it come true." Think of it more as a mental mouse and keyboard - instead of using your hands to control a computer, it would be your thoughts.
However, typing in to a computer "make me a sandwich" won't make my computer contact a sandwich-making robot over the intarweb and order a sandwich. You'll still have to issue the commands like you would now.
I've got more mod points and GMail invi
Nice try, but women don't enjoy porn.
They've got this thing with emotional bonding and sensible family life.
Nice try, but I know several women who do enjoy porn. You're just not getting to know the right women.
Porn isn't about objectification. It's about visual stimulation. It does not exclude or preclude emotional bonding or sensible family life - unless you have an unhealthy preoccupation with it.
Just remember: everyone's different. Not everyone shares your particular problems with sex.
Coming soon - pyrogyra
The real exciting part isn't about the machine learning what the brain is doing, but rather the brain learning how the machine works. Near the end of the article, he talks about a cluster of neurons that grew in the monkey brains after the implants, and would fire only when the implants were active. The monkey's brain, in effect, sensed a new presence and adapted to it within minutes of its arrival.
If you've ever tried learning an activity that instinctive reflexes like skateboarding or ice skating or even playing the piano, you realize that no matter how much instruction someone gives you, at some point you feel like once you've done it enough, you just "get it". It's the whole muscle memory thing, how your brain encounters something new and just adapts, learning exactly which neurons to fire at the right moments to get the desired affect. Seeing neuron's grow and cluster especially for the robot arm is indicative that the monkey's brain can assimilate the arm and treat it as a natural extension as opposed to a external tool with an awkward interface. In geekspeak, it's like a kernel that, on detecting a new device, can probe it, learn the API, and build its own device driver automatically, without ever knowing anything other than that it's something on the other end of a bus.
Extending that line of thought, who's to say that if the signal processing and classification algorithms advanced far enough to classify even our thoughts, our brains wouldn't be able to instinctively learn how the mind-readers worked and retaliate in return?
My experience with women is just that they don't like (or won't admit liking) porn. I've never met a woman who would not scoff at my browsing usenet for porn, for instance.
In most cases, it just requires communication about the subject. If you explain why you like porn, it's not longer a problem.
No, it doesn't mean you love them any less.
No, you don't necessarily want them to do those things.
No, they're not being screwed*; they get paid thousands of dollars for this.
Explain that it's visual stimulation, and it means that you're not pawing at them for sex all the time - that it gives you options. Explain how men basically want sex all of the time (believe it or not, most women do too... it just surfaces in different ways - it's more emotional than physical).
And if you're going to watch porn with a woman, don't go for usenet stuff or bargain bin video store pornos. Get yourself some of the classy Adam & Eve stuff designed for couples, which actually have a real plot (or at least, more of a plot than most), and pick the video based on what you know turns her on.
You'll be surprised. Sure, not all women will react that way - a lot will react exactly as you've described. But the only way to truly find out is through in-depth, honest communication. And that takes effort.
* erm... well, you know what I mean.
Coming soon - pyrogyra
This was the main theme of A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess.
In it, a violent young man is subjected to a psychological process that renders him unable to commit violent acts. Undergoing it is one of the conditions for his release from prison.
One of the main questions posed by the book (or film) is whether someone who is forced to be good can be considered to be good or if they're the same person as before, just in an enternal prison. It's a disturbing idea when dwelled upon - what happened to progress, development and redemption?
Equally disturbing is the the side-effects of this operation on the character. Aside from accidentally conditioning him to despise the music of Beethoven which he'd formerly adored, there is a horrible scene where he is picked up by two of his former friends and almost killed now that he is incapable of defending himself.
I am sure that there are people who think such control over others would be wonderful. In fact, it would render people little more than robots living according to their masters' (the police/judge's) ideals of correct behaviour. At that point you might as well just kill the people.
I also can't help thinking of the main characters last words in the film of 'Clockwork Orange.'
"I was cured alright."
At that point, the audience's sympathies are with him.We've lived through the mind-altering experience ourselves and we want to be free.
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
Consider the mouse and the bottle. If the mouse really wanted to get a drink, he would go over and get one. It's not like some force is holding him back and he keeps thinking about it but he just (slow superhero struggling voice) can't moooooooove.
/. I've got things to do. ... rrrrhhhhhhaaaaaa... ok, well maybe just a little more.
Hahaha. You're absolutely right.
Now, enough
I'd like to see a simple switch based on brain activity that would toggle on during sexual thought/arousal and toggle off in the absence of that.
The device already exists, only it works on your dick instead. Google for "penile plethysmograph" for more. It's a very good 1:1 mapping of sexual arousal. The real problem is that arousal and desire to commit the acts isn't - how many men get turned on by a hot lesbian scene, without wanting to be a lesbian?
The other fallacy is that the mind isn't one-dimensional. People can be in some way happy, yet in some way sad over exactly the same thing. In the same way, they can be both aroused and disgusted at the same time. There's a saying that "Most people wouldn't dream about doing what they dream about doing."
The mind is simply associative. Show it something sexual and it will connect, be it performed by an adult or a child. The only thing you measure is if you're able to drown it out by sending conflicting signals - much like your average male does when he wants to lose an embarrasing boner - think of a complete turn-off.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
well, yeah, but what's the difference between the signal that makes you want to move your arm and the signal that actually does it? the monkeys learn that they get the desired response by just sending the "intent to move arm" signal instead of the whole "activate arm muscles" signal.
Does the water come when mice are thinking they want water...OR
have they learned that every time they think about death/sex/food the water comes?
Will code a sig generator for food
The same people who brought you "Nuclear, sorry, Nucular Cars," "Flying Cars," and what ever else doesn't require much imagination and even less knowledge of math and physics.
Entreprenurial posers.
Still it sells magazines.
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
What about the thoughts you "really" don't need everyone else to know hear though. Somehow it needs to determine what to transmit and what not to. Even if it is controlled by you thinking, 'say this or that', what if you're thinking of saying it but don't really want to. This is getting confusing. You could imagine thinking about talking and having it projected into a room 2,000 miles away," says Craig Henriquez. "I don't see that that will be a problem. It's very, very possible."
Why design an arm that has to figure out which brain signals mean "lift up?" Why not design an arm that will respond to brain signals in a number of ways, and one of them is by lifting up? We've each got the best learning device known to our species in our heads, why not use that skill? We all learned to use our original arms through trial and error (albeit when there was a lot less clutter in our heads), I've got the sneaking suspicion that we'd figure out how to make a mechanical one do whatever we want.
It would be no different than learning to swim, or ride a bike, or swing a golf club.
Then all you need is a way to get signals from the brain to the device, and you're set.
Reality has a conservative bias: it conserves mass, energy, momentum...
You're thinking about it in the wrong way. The robot that you control will just be like another limb to you, like your hand. If you think about suicide, your hand doesn't just automatically get a knife and jab yourself (hopefully). There's a certain amount of filtering done between what you're actually thinking, and how your body moves. Basically, it's not a one-to-one mapping
The robot/machine that you are controlling will be no different than your usual body: there won't be anything out of your physical control.
First, when you think about an action, like suicide, it's a bit vague. What limb are you actually wanting to move? I'm willing to bet you would be thinking more on a high level: why is my life miserable? What did I get myself into? I want to die.. etc. This article isn't talking about machines actually interpreting these high level thoughts, it's talking about interpreting low level thoughts like "I want to grab that glass of water. Move my hand to the right, and squeeze, etc." These thoughts will generate a specific action.
If our bodies actually interpreted high level behaviours and thoughts on its own, there would be havoc. It's really the brain that does that, and tells the peripherals the specific movements.