Slashdot Mirror


Fuelless Flight with Air Submarine?

An anonymous reader writes "Using the same physics principles as submarines, a new company is planning a fuelless air ship. Recent advances in ultra light and strong materials are making this concept a practical reality." There's no question that changes in buoyancy can be used to propel a vehicle, but "fuelless" is going to be tricky.

64 of 428 comments (clear)

  1. 1940s vision of the future coming to life? by JustinXB · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Isn't that what the sci-fi writers of the 1940s/1950s thought the future would be like? After all, the Empire State Building has a blimp port at the top. I'll stick with good old ozone layer killing cars, thank you.

    1. Re:1940s vision of the future coming to life? by AndroidCat · · Score: 5, Funny
      After all, the Empire State Building has a blimp port at the top.

      The B-25 bomber valet parking didn't work too well either.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    2. Re:1940s vision of the future coming to life? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      Isn't that what the sci-fi writers of the 1940s/1950s thought the future would be like? After all, the Empire State Building has a blimp port at the top.

      You're off by at least a few decades. The Empire State Building was built in 1930-31. The Hindenburg disaster in 1937 gave lighter-than-air travel a very bad reputation for the next few decades. Watch "Bright Eyes" (with Shirley Temple) and you'll see that heavier-than-air aviation was already glamorous. And by the 1950s, commercial transatlantic flight had become very routine (though expensive).

      Incidently, the airport in the Empire State Building was not really well planned. One of the main selling points of zepplins was the ability to travel in comfort. To enter the Empire State Building from the top, airship passengers would have had to go down a gangplank in very high winds. It was an interesting idea, but the actual implementation was basically a scam.

  2. Uh, Submarine? by nacturation · · Score: 5, Funny

    Wouldn't something in the air be a Supermarine?

    --
    Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
    1. Re:Uh, Submarine? by kfg · · Score: 4, Funny

      Now don't you go being a Spitfire 'round here boy.

      KFG

    2. Re:Uh, Submarine? by Wellspring · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I totally agree. I'm not an aerospace engineer, but this seems like a complicated perpetual motion machine to me.

      Note one line from the presentation: "gliders have glide ratios of up to 60 to one, and aerostatic balloons have been known to reach altitudes of up to ten miles" (don't know if I got the figures right). That's like saying, "Sports cars have been known to reach speeds of 200+ mph, and bicycles don't require power. Therefore, my hybrid has both qualities."

      I'll ask around, but for now I'd call this an interesting way to part an investor from his money. Con artistry is the only truly perpetual motion I've ever heard of.

    3. Re:Uh, Submarine? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative
      Snap quiz: besides submarines, what do you know of that relies on buoyancy? Not much, eh?

      Fish, hot air balloons, blimps, even the float in my toilet relies on buoyancy. Do you even know what buoyancy is? While you're at it, look up submarine. Here's a hint: sub-marine.

      It's a stupid name. Period.

    4. Re:Uh, Submarine? by PktLoss · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The basis of a perpetual motion machine is that it moves on forever, without any input. The machine will start with either batteries or ground based power to create the vacuum that will allow it to lift off. The initial input.

      During flight it will probably regain a percentage of that power from decents, and use that energy to try and create the vacuum again to rise again. This won't be a perfect process, energy will be lost/wasted, so without external input it would eventually need to land. However, It will be receiving external input, mainly solar power. Not directly mind you, but the air currents created by the sun that will work to raise the plane (same way birds can glide for an extended period without flapping their wings). This external input disqualifies it from being a perpetual motion machine, but could allow it to fly for unseemly amounts of time.

    5. Re:Uh, Submarine? by jovlinger · · Score: 3, Informative

      I didn't see any references to the efficiency of the turbine, but I doubt he's claiming they are 100% efficient. In fact, in one paragraph, he points out that if the turbines didn't manage to regain enough energy to compress the gas, the plane could be landed and pointed into the wind, and thus recharge itself.

      The wind is thus input, and it isn't perpetual motion.

    6. Re:Uh, Submarine? by Jayfar · · Score: 5, Funny

      I totally agree. I'm not an aerospace engineer, but this seems like a complicated perpetual motion machine to me.

      The answer's obvious. Why of course it'll have oars - manned by passengers flying coach. They're just omitted from the initial artist's conception.

  3. Coming Soon! by lukewarmfusion · · Score: 4, Funny

    Fuelless falling.

    1. Re:Coming Soon! by segfaultcoredump · · Score: 4, Informative

      already happened: see the gimli glider story

  4. Prior art? by Rosco+P.+Coltrane · · Score: 4, Funny

    Using the same physics principles as submarines, a new company is planning a fuelless air ship.

    Isn't a fuelless air submarine usually called a "balloon"?

    --
    "A door is what a dog is perpetually on the wrong side of" - Ogden Nash
  5. site design by morcheeba · · Score: 4, Funny

    It's a little creepy that this website looks like this other famous site and that they both advocate leaving the earth for a long trip in a high-tech airship. Coincidence?

  6. No fuel? You still need power. by Yorrike · · Score: 5, Insightful
    It's a marketing ploy. You're still going to require some energy to do the recompression of the helium, or creation of a vaccume.

    All the same, it's still a cool idea. I want a small one to fly to work in (maybe add pedals for all the compression-> decompression stuff and you'll have a human powered plane ;)

    --

    Looks can be deceiving. Or CAN they?

    1. Re:No fuel? You still need power. by pdp11e · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The article mentions a wind turbine as a mean for "harvesting' the energy from the air-currents. In principle it might even work. Sail-ships are fuelless vehicles capable of circumnavigating the globe (although conversion from wind-power to the vehicle's propulsion is much more straightforward).
      Practically? I am really skeptic. Gut-feeling tells me that the turbine-battery-compressor cycle is not efficient enough for self-sustained propulsion.
      Disclaimer: IAAEP (I am an experimental physicist)

  7. Lightning by microbox · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The pontoons will be multiple layers of Kevlar and epoxy, which weigh as little as 1 lb/ft2, around a rigid carbon-fiber airframe

    I've heard that there's a really bad problem from lightning strikes if you plane isn't made from an excellent conductor like metal. Various attempts have been made to make non-metal composites that don't get badly damaged by a strike. If this plan goes really high then this will be a problem.

    Can some engineer tell me, have they solved this problem or is this idea just hot air?

    --

    Like all pain, suffering is a signal that something isn't right
  8. tanstaafl - you got to start somewhere... by NotQuiteReal · · Score: 4, Insightful
    It sure looks cool, and I would fly in one [if it is reasonably priced, goes where I want, etc.]

    However, just because it may not use fuel to continue on it's journey doesn't mean it didn't need some power to get it started...

    Physics 101. Law of thermodymanics. Etcetera.

    --
    This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.
  9. Another improvement by Sideshow+Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    To save on the compressed air, just fill me full of mexican food, and I could provide a cheap source of propulsion. Or we can outsource that to Mumbai.

  10. Re:MOD PARENT +1 INTERESTING by SoTuA · · Score: 3, Funny
    Where's the backup if the "engine" mechanism stops working?

    Oh, the backup engine is there alright. We just neglected to carry fuel for it onboard :D

  11. Yep... by Arcanix · · Score: 5, Funny

    Because you never know when you might run out of air up there!

  12. Another name... by Supp0rtLinux · · Score: 4, Funny

    You know... there's another name for flying without fuel. Its called skydiving!

    The only thing necessary for Micro$oft to triumph is for a few good programmers to do nothing". North County Computers

  13. Re:MOD PARENT +1 INTERESTING by Kenja · · Score: 4, Funny
    "And what magical backup does a 747 have when it's engines quit?"

    In the even of a water landing your seat cushions may be used as a floatation device.

    --

    "Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
  14. Hmm... by smoondog · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Well this PhD smells a quack (from the link on the page http://www.fuellessflight.com/techno/tech.htm):

    "We humans can rarely invent any process that nature does not already use. Most of the science we know today merely copies nature. Our thermodynamic laws were formed by observation of nature. They are not proven, merely not disproved. Within this section of our website you will be taught a new science that mimics the earth's weather, by harnessing the dual forces of gravity -- buoyancy and gravity acceleration. Harnessing gravity may be more technically described as the science of harnessing mass differentials. High density mass falls within a low density lifting fluid, like rain falls from the sky, and low density mass rises in a high density lifting fluid, like a bubble rises in water or helium rises in air."

    I think I understand the technology he is proposing (I'm confident it still requires input energy, beyond the environment), but he really should tone down the quack-o-meter. I think we can rest easily that the thermodynamic laws are intact.

    -Sean

    1. Re:Hmm... by Camel+Pilot · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "We humans can rarely invent any process that nature does not already use."

      Lets start with the wheel.

    2. Re:Hmm... by dcmeserve · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Well this PhD smells a quack

      Seriously!

      No PhD here, but when someone's rambling on for paragraph after long repetitive paragraph about how buoyancy is related to gravity, and never really gets around to a precise description of what the heck this technology is, and keeps referring to "my invention", and alternately refers to himself in the first and third person, this registers pretty high on my BS-o-meter.

      I couldn't stand to read too much of it, so maybe I missed something, but this really comes off (to me) as someone who's living in his own little "I know better than all those scientists!" kind of world.

      He also talks about building a "cheap" $200k model that works in water in order to prove the airship technology, because it's somehow impossible to build a small-scale model that works in air. I don't think he's thinking too clearly abou this; you can certainly build a cheap model -- just don't expect it to carry people!

      Fundamentally, it's still a good idea -- along the lines of the Mars Balloon, and the underwater gliders. But unless he's drawing energy from temperature differences at different altitude, solar heating, or some such, I don't see it working. Trying to get all the energy you need from turbines on the wings is definitely perpetual-motion-machine thinking.

      --
      "Orthodoxy is unconsciousness" - Orwell
  15. Aaaaarghhhhhhh! by CyberHippyRedux · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Oh man, why did I RTFA? I'm wrapping my brain around a couple of problems here:
    The new hybrid _gravity-powered aircraft_ is formed by merging the capabilities of the following devices into a single new aircraft apparatus: (1) an aircraft capable of aerostatic (lighter-than-air) lift to gain altitude; and, (2) a glider aircraft capable of aerodynamic lift, having a high glide ratio to accomplish long range gliding; and, (3) a wind turbine that is capable of harnessing the force of wind to generate power and to store power as the aircraft glides downward.

    This thing is supposed to fly because of a combination of reduced bouyancy (by way of creating multiple vacuum's inside it) and stored energy (by way of a turbine invented by the apparent author).

    The turbine is for compressing air, to be used as power storage. I think.

    If your craft is dependant on creating a vacuum inside for easy lift, but your power supply is compressed air, don't the two kinda cancel eachother out?

    Even if you made it and got it up, what would it be like to try to control a zero-weight plane with mass? I picture it flipping around in the wind like a feather...

    1. Re:Aaaaarghhhhhhh! by nacturation · · Score: 3, Informative

      Zero weight isn't quite the same as zero inertia. You don't see the Goodyear blimp flipping around at football games.

      --
      Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
  16. WTF!? by rsw · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The aircraft, still in development, will be similar to a submarine that changes its buoyancy, a form of gravity, to float on the surface of the sea or cruise 300 ft below it.

    Stephen J. Mraz, "Senior Editor," is in need of a severe beating. Since when is buoyancy "a form of gravity?"

    I stopped reading there. Nothing bothers me more than shitty pseudoscience.

  17. Practicality of the design? by pollux03 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    According the the white paper on the "Technology" link:

    The gravityplane must be very large in order to be lifted by a lighter-than-air lifting gas such as helium that provides a very low amount of lift, thus a small gravityplane can never be built and models of the craft will always be very large. However, a scale model of the gravityplane can be built as a sea glider that is less than 30 foot long that will be capable of holding four passengers. The sea glider can work in water at this small size, because water has a lifting capacity 821 times greater than the lifting capacity of air (62 pounds per cubic foot lifting capacity for water and .0755 pounds per cubic foot lifting capacity for air).

    If at 30 feet a gravityplane can hold 4 passengers, could this design ever provide a viable means of transport for larger groups of people?

    30 feet/4 people = 7.5 feet/person

    Thats approx 75 feet per group of 10. Makes for quite a large plane for even medium sized groups.

    For cargo I suppose this could be cost effective depending on the maintenance costs and its lifetime. Lets assume that an average person weighs 200lbs (I know it may be too large, but to allow for an optimistic view of the plane's carying capacity).

    7.5feet/200lbs ~= 1foot/26lbs
    May be good for cargo because shape, size and conditions don't really matter.

  18. Re:1940s vision -- Try 1912 vision by Burroughs! by TheWanderingHermit · · Score: 4, Informative

    Nope.

    Much older.

    Carl Sagan, Robert Heinlein, Ray Bradbury, and a number of other scientists and writers were inspired by "The Martian Tales of Edgar Rice Burroughs". The first one, "A Princess of Mars" was published in 1912. (And it's on Project Gutenberg!).

    In these books, John Carter was mysteriously transported to Mars, which was called Barsoom by the inhabitants. He became the Prince of Helium (a city/city-state -- not the element). The Barsoomian navies had huge airships that were held in the air by use of the 9th (or 8th?) light ray, so they needed no power to stay aloft. (According to Burroughs, we only know of 7 rays of sunlight, as seen in a rainbow, from red to violet, but Barsoomian scientists had isolated 2 other colors, never seen on Earth, and one of these colors is what gave light a repulsive power so it was repulsed from objects and reflected to our eyes, and it was used to keep the Barsoom airships in the air.)

    The Martian Tales are far-fetched, but a ripping good time to read (at least the 1st 10 are -- skip the last one).

    When I first read the story, all I could think about were E.R.B.'s descriptions of the huge naval vessels floating through the air of a dead planet (there were no sea going navies, since there were no seas, except one at the south pole).

    Too bad these stories seem all but forgotten now.

  19. Old Navy joke? by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 5, Funny
    Flight with Air Submarine

    That reminds me of the old joke back in the Navy... I think it went: There are more airplanes in the oceans than submarines in the sky.

    I guess that's no longer true. :-)

  20. Uhhh, hmmm... by La+Camiseta · · Score: 5, Funny

    The aircraft, still in development, will be similar to a submarine that changes its buoyancy, a form of gravity, to float on the surface of the sea or cruise 300 ft below it.

    What's scarrier, flying without an engine, or that the general public won't think twice about this sentence?

  21. ObSimpsons by bgeer · · Score: 3, Funny

    In this house, we OBEY the laws of thermodynamics!

  22. Actually by geekoid · · Score: 3, Insightful

    you need energy.
    That would be the helium in this case. You could argues that it takes energy to build the thing, during which contained energy would be loaded via fuel powered vihicals, but thats a little overly semantical.

    I mean, I can fill a ballon with helium, and it will rise without power.

    --
    The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    1. Re:Actually by RayBender · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I mean, I can fill a ballon with helium, and it will rise without power.

      But you can't come back down again unless you compress the helium (which takes work). You could jettison it, but then you'd have to do work to get more helium.

      This scheme sounds a bit too much like a perpetual-motion machine. He talks about using energy generated by a wind turbine driven during the glide to alter the buoyancy... IF he'd talked about using, say, solar power to do so, I might believe this was something that at least didn't violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics. But he appears to be claiming he needs no external energy input. That's total crap, and I'm surprised more /. people haven't jumped all over that point.

      I mean seriously, didn't anybody take intro phyics in school? If you learned nothing else, you should have learned that you can't get something for nothing. Anybody who says otherwise is selling something worth nothing.

      --
      Human genome = 3 billion base pairs = 6 GBit. Windows + Office = 20 Gbit. Which is more impressive?
    2. Re:Actually by rjelks · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm thinking this "air submarine" is probably bunk, but I don't think we're breaking the 2nd law of thermal dynamics. Most air in our atmosphere is being moved anyway. Think about a windmill and how we convert it to energy. Even if the ship was hovering still, the wind could still be blowing and giving the turbine energy. I'm not sure I'd trust something like this, but it could account for the extra needed energy.-

  23. Re:In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamic by Lordofohio · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Even if you ignore the fuel needed to pump the helium in and out of the storage, they will need the power to propel the "gravy"-plane forward

    They don't plan on pumping the helium in and out. It looks like they plan on leaving the helium static in the tanks, and pumping air in and out of other tanks, making the plane weigh more and less. However, it's not really the weight of the plane that matters, it's the density. The goal is to get the average density of all the materials onboard i.e. the people, instruments, seats, structure, tanks, etc to be less than the density of the air around it. This is where I think they will have problems.

    Anyone familar with aviation or the atmosphere knows that the atmosphere gets much less dense as you go up. Here in Columbus, altitude 1,000 feet, the density of air is 1.2 kg/m^3 At 10,000 feet the density is 0.88 kg/m^3 and at 30,000 feet it is 0.41 kg/m^3. This plane would have to have an average density less than those values to reach those altitudes, and keep in mind that simply having the cabin pressurized for humans will make the entire cabin a bubble of "heavy" air.

    The energy to pressurize air will come from a wind powered turbine which will be deployed when the plane is descending, but I don't know how much power they expect to get from this. Any power produced by this turbine would affect the plane in the form of drag, which decreases speed and range. This would have to be a very flexible air storage system, since the requirements would change every day depending on high and low pressure systems, temperature, and the weight of whoever is on board.

    They may also have stability and control issues. I assume that this would have to be a large plane, even with today's light weight materials. Just look at how big blimps have to be to carry their minimal cargo. A plane like this with huge wingspan and extreme buoyancy would be affected by every gust of wind and bit of turbulence that affected it, and although it could be very stable, control inputs would have to combat huge wind loads, and control effectiveness would be marginal, to say the least.

    From my armchair view of this project, it seems possible on a small scale, but not to the point of carrying "massive loads" of people and cargo as the website claims.

    My $0.02

  24. Tumbleweed. by klocwerk · · Score: 4, Funny

    Tumbleweed.

    next!

    --

    "You worthless post!"
    -Shakespeare, 2 Gentlemen of Verona, 1. 1. 147
  25. Re:1940s vision -- Try 1912 vision by Burroughs! by Angry+Toad · · Score: 3, Informative

    When I first read the story, all I could think about were E.R.B.'s descriptions of the huge naval vessels floating through the air of a dead planet

    I really don't want to sound like an Anime Fanboy here, but you might like to check out Last Exile if you haven't already seen it. It's a decent little series with some really impressive graphics, built around exactly that kind of concept...

  26. Re:MOD PARENT +1 INTERESTING by glk572 · · Score: 3, Interesting


    3 more engines.

    This plane (if possable) would have a very high glide ratio, so even if it crashes, unless it's a catastrophic failure, it could be a very soft crash landing.

    To me this sounds like some intresting scifi, from a wild imagination, but not very well thought out. I'm shure that there will be something like this eventually, but most likeley not too soon.

    The vehicle is really just a durigable with wings, I think that lighter than air flight has a potential to be come a really big thing in the next century, and that that is the angle to push, not the fuel-less flight aspect. Imagine taking an air cruise.

    --
    Well art is art isn't it, but then again water is water; and east is east; and west is west; and if you take cranberries
  27. Perpetual motion machine alert! by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The idea that an airplane can fly endlessly carrying heavy loads of passengers and cargo without burning any fuel

    So far so good.

    The new hybrid "gravity-powered aircraft"

    Starting to get bogus.

    is formed by merging the capabilities of the following devices into a single new aircraft apparatus:

    (1) an aircraft capable of aerostatic (lighter-than-air) lift to gain altitude; and,


    Still OK.

    (2) a glider aircraft capable of aerodynamic lift, having a high glide ratio to accomplish long range gliding; and,

    Starting to get bogus.

    ("Glider"? Using diving planes to add a significant forward component to upward/downward motion is well understood. But a "glider" is something else - a high-speed device with significant aerodynamic lift - initially powered by atmospheric thermal energy in the form of updrafts storing energy by raising a NON-bouyant craft against gravity, then trading this stored energy for momentum as necessary by gliding downward. Raising a neutrally-bouyant object stores no energy.)

    (3) a (patented, new design of Robert D Hunt) wind turbine that is capable of harnessing the force of wind to generate power as the aircraft glides downward. This cycle can be repeated indefinitely to allow the craft to stay aloft virtually forever.

    Bingo! Perpetual motion.

    You CAN get a lot of forward motion out of lift-driven vertical motion. But it takes ENERGY to adjust the lift. The submarines described in the original Slashdot posting are one example. Zepplins with diving planes that achieved speeds in excess of 200 MPH by this mechanism also existed in the mid 20th century.

    But the Zepplins BURNED FUEL to change their bouyancy (by heating some of their bouyancy gas), just as the submarines use energy to compress or expand gas in their bouyancy tanks. This makes them a heat engine (though a slowly cycling one) and subject to the carnot cycle limit.

    This craft proposes to use a turbine to collect energy from the wind of its passage and use that to adjust its bouyancy, use the bouyancy to produce forward motion, creating the wind to drive the turbine. Like a generator with its shaft connected to a motor which is also wired to its output, the energy goes around and around, with some being lost in every pass.

    This is not to say it won't fly at all. But to the extent that it DOES fly it's getting its basic power from vertical air currents, just like any other glider. By being nearly neutrally bouyant it sacrificed the ability to store energy in the gravitational potential of its own weight at altitude, and it's replacing that by being able to convert the wind of its passage to stored electricity, then feed that back into forward motion via bouyancy adjustments rather than propulsive fans.

    But I expect this to be more expensive and less efficient than other alternatives - such as an equivalent modification to the original 200-MPH zepplins WITHOUT the fixed wings.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
    1. Re:Perpetual motion machine alert! by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 3, Informative

      The bouyancy pumps on a sub are one of the smallest power loads. Most WWII subs had hand pumps connected to the ballast pumps.

      True.

      But they also used their diving planes mostly to convert forward motion (from those BIG engines) to vertical motion, rather than the other way around. They did most of their diving that way, and used the bouyancy adjustment mostly to hold themselves at a particular depth or the surface.

      Except for coming up suddenly, of course. In that case they discharged an ENORMOUS blast of energy in the form of compressed air into the bouyancy adjustment. (It takes a LOT of power to compress air.) They could make that up slowly over a significant period of time, so the load on the diesel was small compared to cruising friction.

      But if they had propelled the boat by running it up and down repeatedly and converting that to forward motion via diving planes, like the "submarines" described in the original post, and intended to make significant progress that way, they'd have needed an amount of energy similar to that needed for the electric motor driving the prop when submerged to achieve the same speed.

      Bouyancy adjustment drive has the advantage that it doesn't require external rotating parts, to leak, become fouled or corroded, etc. (You can even do away with diving plane adjustments by flipping the craft, accomplishing this by redistributing internal weight.) This is very handy for long-term, great-depth devices which aren't in a hurry to be somewhere else.

      --
      Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  28. Segway-style hype.... by trims · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Honestly, after reading this site, it smacks of all the hype around the Segway (and many similar, less-successful "revolutionary breakthrough" schemes).

    Yes, it is possible to create a fuel-less aeroplane that can still maintain forward motion. Advanced glider technology certainly fits this description. However, there are a couple of things that are missing from the adware:

    • How do you fly into the wind? Without some serious motive force, traveling against even moderate air-currents is impossible, or can be done at such a slow rate as to render travel unusable.
    • Gliding requires a very high lift-to-weight ratio. That is, you generally need a very large wing area to lift even a small amount of weight. And, of course, the wing weight contributes to the overall weight of the craft. The result is a very, very, very small cargo capability.
    • The efficiency of any wind-generator (even a revolutionary one) would never outstrip detrimental effects of drag it produces nor the loss of cargo space that the weight of the generator occupies.
    • Winged aircraft cannot hover without some form of downward thrust. Basic aerodynamic physics here. Winged aircraft depend on forward motion to provide lift, and thus the ability to fly. The ability to hover requires one of three things: (1) the entire craft has positive bouyancy (i.e. blimp/balloons), (2) a moving wing providing its own lift (i.e. helicoper rotors), or (3) downward air thrust (i.e. Harrier and similar). The craft described has none of these.
    • The ability to climb in an aerostatic craft requires favorable air currents, and a minimum forward velocity. The first condition is highly unpredictable, and generally not present for hours or days, depending on location. The second condition has to be provided by either motive force (e.g. engines) or gravity (which is why gliders are often launched from cliffs).

    The physics of underwater motion are similar those of flight - basic fluid dynamics here. The problem is he's ignoring fundamental environmental differences between water and air. The density differences between the two make it possible to move large masses underwater, but only tiny masses in the air using the same principles. Not to mention that the fluid consistency and motion between air and water are radically different, which invalidates using the ocean as a model for the sky.

    He's a fraud. Pure and simple.

    -Erik

    --
    There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
  29. you're forgetting by klocwerk · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You're forgetting that lift capacity goes by the cubic footage of the lifting body, not the length.

    I'm too lazy to do the math, but a longer body would have a far larger volume in the lifting body than liner.
    7.5 ft per person on a 30ft version != 75ft for 10 ppl.

    --

    "You worthless post!"
    -Shakespeare, 2 Gentlemen of Verona, 1. 1. 147
  30. Actually it is safer by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 5, Interesting
    A modern aircraft like say your typical airliner needs constant power from the engines to keep up enough speed to say up. Loose that engine power and you are in a very heavy glider. unless there is a run way within a few miles or something similar and there is a bloody good pilot at the controls then you are dead.

    Loosing power on only one side is not a picnic even. The remaining engines will have to push harder to maintain speed but this makes the entire aircraft want to turn constantly. Very few runways come in corners.

    Gliders on the other hand are designed to ehm well glide. This thing would never suffer an engine failure. Power system (it does have one) fail? Simply glide gently down giving you a far wider range in wich to find a suitable landing splot.

    There are many reasons this can fail but worries about safety because of a lack of engines ain't one of them . Note that it isn't a balloon. With wings that size it could exchange hight for speed and with that control over its direction.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Actually it is safer by Romeozulu · · Score: 5, Informative

      The remaining engines will have to push harder to maintain speed but this makes the entire aircraft want to turn constantly. Very few runways come in corners.

      IMAP (I am a pilot), losing an engine on a commercial plane is no big deal. Any asymmetric thrust is easily countered by the auto-pilot or the pilot by use of the rudders. Landing on one engine is also no big deal. The only issue is holding altitude while flying high, the plane might need to descend to 20,000 or so, then it can hold altitude (required to by the regs). Even loosing an engine on take-off is not a big deal. The plane must have enough speed before rotating (Vr) to maintain flight if one engine goes out.

    2. Re:Actually it is safer by martin-boundary · · Score: 4, Funny
      I say NONSENSE!

      If Kurt Russel and Harrison Ford can land a 747 with one engine dead and one burning, then so can I. How hard can it be?

    3. Re:Actually it is safer by LWATCDR · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually modern jets are pretty good gliders. If I rember correctly they tend to have a glide ratio of somewhere around 20:1 The problem is that there best glide speed tends to be pretty fast so while if you are at say 20,000 feet you could glide 80 miles you might cover that in only 15 minutes. Not a lot of time to find a place to land. Once you drop the gear and flaps you are going to be landing in a hurry.
      I rember a story about a Canadian 767 that ran out of gas and was lucky enough and had a very talented crew that managed to glide to an old airfield and made a dead stick landing.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  31. Re:Perpetual Motion by thogard · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Not quite. The idea is to use a large area of vacuum to provide normal lift. Then a second ballast tank can be adjusted will cause the thing to decend. When it decending, it uses the forward energy to spin the turbines which then powers the compressors. The steady state of this thing will be floating at 100,000 ft or so.

    I think it can work if they can solve the "magical box that can hold a total vacuum that weighs less than the air its going to displace" part of the problem but thats been know about since the days of Boyl and Dalton.

    This system uses the energy of the wather system to move around a device that wants to float at a n altitude above ground level. In that way its much like a sail boat. The reality is if anyone can build a large vacuum chamber, they can stick engines on it and get from LA to London much quicker than current jets if they can get up high enough. I figure this will happen about the time someone finds the right stuff to make a space elevator out of.

  32. Someone wasn't paying attention in Physics by tyler_larson · · Score: 3, Informative
    Stephen J. Mraz, "Senior Editor," is in need of a severe beating. Since when is buoyancy "a form of gravity?"

    Since buoyancy is caused by gravity pulling the fluid (air/water) around you toward the earth and you moving away from the earth to take its place. "Form of gravity" is probably a less accurate term than "effect of gravity." Still, Stephen J. Mraz was right, you're wrong. How about that severe beating?

    Nothing bothers me more than shitty pseudoscience.

    Be careful when you deride things you don't understand. This isn't new technology. It's been in use in autonomous submarines for years. Employing the same principles in the air hasn't been done yet because it's a bit more complicated: The speeds are a lot higher, the weather becomes a factor, and the margin for error is a lot smaller.

    --
    "With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine. However, this is not necessarily a good idea...."
    RFC 1925
  33. No Fuel means no go by Dr.+Null · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The work required to pump all the air out of the ship to make it buoyant and rise to some height is more than the work required to just lift the ship that distance. Drag and any forward kinetic energy given to the plane implies that the energy recovered by the turbines during fall is not sufficient to pump all the air out of the ship again to once again make it rise, thus you will have to carry along fuel to run an engine to drive the pump that changes your buoyancy. If you use external power to evacuate the buoyancy chambers on the ground, then it can be said that the pressure differential represent stored energy. As the ship rises, gas pressure potential energy is traded for gravitational potential energy (altitude) and kinetic energy (forward motion).... So both the compressed helium and the evacuated chamber represent stored energy which must be loaded onto the ship while on the ground, thus this ship requires fuel like any other ship. Not only this but the inefficiencies in recovering kinetic and gravitational potential energy demand that the ship carry much more stored energy that that required to lift the ship through one up and down cycle.... So you may not hear the phrase "filler up" that the air park, but "emptier out" if effectively the same thing DN

  34. Best. Typo. Ever. by DevNull+Ogre · · Score: 4, Funny
    I'm not sure if this was deliberate (emphasis added)...
    ...suitable landing splot.
    but I think you've just discovered/created the perfect word for the site of an emergency landing. A delightful combination of splat and spot. I love it!
  35. This idea has problems by whittrash · · Score: 4, Informative

    The structural requirements of a vacuum are much greater than helium. The entire structure goes into compression and bending when in a vacuum, meaning it will need to be extremely strong in order to resist bending. This is a bit like sucking the air out of a 2 liter pop bottle, it will collapse easily, and the pop bottle will need to be substituted with a steel canteen in order to keep its form. Unfortunately, this kind of structure is heavy, and in terms of air ships are extremely inneficient.

    A regular blimp inflates, so the forces on the skin are entirely in tension, the only bending forces are caused by loads the ship is carrying and more importantly, sudden wind gusts which could tear a weak ship apart. Structurally speaking, this is vastly more efficient and completely eliminates bending due to a vacuum, and the tensile force alone in the skin is often enough to provide a stiff but flexible frame, just like a ballon once inflated keeps its shape even under tremendous strain. It is a very resiliant structure.

    There are two huge problems that have always existed with airships, and fuel is not one of them. The first problem is landing the craft. They have a tendency to blow around with even slight gusts of wind, and if anything happens like a downdraft, they can get smashed into the ground. The second problem is weather related. In violent weather, the thin skin on these ships can get torn easily. The larger the craft, generally speaking, the bigger the problems. This is not to say these problems are inherently unsolvable, but why bother using zero fuel when fuel already will cost next to nothing if it uses solar power or fuel cells.

  36. Devices that are wind powered. by whittrash · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Is a sailboat a perpetual motion machine? Is a windmill a perpetual motion machine? This ship could sail in 3 dimensions and draw power from a turbine. Theoretically, that is possible. Althoug it does need some additional power, hard tack and beans possibly.

    But what I don't understand is why he doesn't just create a giant inflatable airplane hybrid, that would probably work better. It could get 90% lift from helium and 10% from forward movement from a turbo fans powered by solar power. The helium ballon aspect of it could be the structural system as well, it would be an active system (inflatable), rather than a very heavy and expensive rigid frame.

  37. Re:Holy *hit BatMan by Xyrus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My goodness, that video is so verbally twisted virtually anyone not having a clue would buy into it.

    Of course that is the intent. Their perpetual motion is a complete farce. If you listen to the explanation (I know, it's ludicrous) they're basically saying you can get more air going down then you can going up.

    Some other fallacies is the "lighter than air" effect. If you've ever seen a blimp, then you realize the size this craft would have to be in order to carry even the lightest loads. Helium is only "lighter than air" when it's density is lower. This is the whole "which weighs more, a pound of lead or a pound of feathers" argument.

    Along those lines, you'd also need to take into account the expansion effect. Let's use weather balloons as an example. The higher they go, the bigger they get. Air pressure drops as you go up, therefore the greater air pressure in the balloon expands it outward. If it didn't, then the balloon would reach an equilibrium and go no higher. This craft would need to also take this into consideration. This could be quite a technical hurdle, gliding an aircraft that is constantly changing dimensions.

    Regardless, the craft would at least need to carry some onboard power source.

    I take this "article" with a big salt lick.

    ~X
    Random Quote:"If it's too good to be true, then somebody is getting rich and it isn't you."

    --
    ~X~
  38. OT: Read it. Full of lessons. by Beryllium+Sphere(tm) · · Score: 5, Insightful

    >To be safe they re-ran the numbers three times to be absolutely, positively sure the refuelers hadn't made any mistakes; each time using 1.77 pounds/liter as the specific gravity factor. This was the factor written on the refueler's slip and used on all of the other planes in Air Canada's fleet. The factor the refuelers and the crew should have used on the brand new, all-metric 767 was .8 kg/liter of kerosene.

    Lessons: a triple-check doesn't help you if there's a systematic error. Standardized measurements are a Good Thing.

    >the EICAS issued a sharp bong--indicating the complete and total loss of both engines. Says Quintal "It's a sound that Bob and I had never heard before. It's not in the simulator."

    Lesson: in a safety-critical system, train the users for "impossible" situations.

    >Hydraulic pressure was falling fast and the plane's controls were quickly becoming inoperative. But the engineers at Boeing had foreseen even this most unlikely of scenarios and provided one last failsafethe RAT.

    Lesson: when your engineers go paranoid, if there are lives at stake then for God's sake listen to them. "Belt and suspenders" engineering saved lives in this incident.

    >Quintal "got busy" in the manuals looking for procedures for dealing with the loss of both engines. There were none..

    Lesson: learn from experience. There have been incidents, like volcanic ash injection, that have forced shutdowns of all engines on a jetliner. If your statistics say the engines can't fail at the same time, and the graybeards say they can, then you left something out of the statistics.

    >The avoidance of disaster was credited to Capt. Pearson's "Knowledge of gliding which he applied in an emergency situation to the landing of one of the most sophisticated aircraft ever built."

    Lesson: there is no substitute for a wealth of experience. Downsize your 20-year veterans to save money, watch things go wrong.

    Sorry for the diversion, but these are things I'm passionate about.

  39. RTFA by Killio · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Mr. Hunt describes it convincingly. Buoyancy is caused by the differing force with which gravity pulls on heavy and light things. Gravity pulls with more force on heavier things, (F=MA; mass is higher), and less on lighter things. Hence, the heavier thing sinks relative to the lighter thing. Buoyancy.

  40. Seaglider by Special+Ed · · Score: 4, Informative

    Not that anyone ever actually follows a link and reads what is there, but I recommend that all the "non-believers" here take a look at Seaglider.
    Or follow this google search for even more.

    Seaglider applies much the same principles as this vehicle but to an underwater environment. It has a small onboard power supply, but it alternately uses gravity and bouyancy to propel itself.

    I may not be an Aerospace Engineer but I am an Ocean Engineer and Fluid Dynamics in air is the same as Fluid Dynamics in water. Just change your value for rho.

  41. ... Air submarine? by Azureflare · · Score: 3, Funny
    Sorry, that appears to be a paradoxical name; marine stands for the ocean, sub means under; An air submarine would be really quite impossible (under the ocean, yet in the air?)

    Just call it an airship and be done with it.

  42. Re:Holy *hit BatMan by tehdaemon · · Score: 5, Informative
    The term 'lighter than air' is not wrong, it is simply incomplete It should be 'lighter than the air it displaces' Not sure if you were missing that point or not, but you were not clear on that.

    The blimp thing. Blimps are basically oval balloons. They hold their shape because they are pressurized. (blown up!) as such the gas inside is under pressure, I imagine quite a bit ~5 lbs/square inch at least. This is in direct conflict with the goal of being bouyant, as pressurized gas is more dense.

    On the other hand, this plane would be a rigid airship. It would hold it's shape regardless of pressure inside (within limits, too much or too little, pop or squish.) My point here is that comparing rigid airships to blimps in lifting volume is not that simple. Also, rigid airships can have much better areodynamics than blimps. Oh, and they do not constantly change shape. If you want to go higher, either have the gas bags inside only partly full at the fround (limits lift, does not waste gas) or add valves and vent it (limits range, cause you will not have enough lift when you decend again, unless you use ballast . . .)

    I take this article with a large bucket of salt too, but not for any of the reasons you listed.

    --
    Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
  43. Re:Counterargument by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 3, Insightful

    just as the submarines use energy to compress or expand gas in their bouyancy tanks. This makes them a heat engine (though a slowly cycling one) and subject to the carnot cycle limit.

    The followup poster has exposed an error in the above, (though not the one he thought.)

    Actually, as long as you compress and expand gas adiabatically, then the Carnot cycle is irrelevant.

    Actually, adiabatic expansion and compression are two of the four cycles of a carnot engine. (The others are adding heat to the compressed gas at constant volume and removing it at constant volume.)

    My carnot cycle argument applies to the case of the mid-20th-century airships where the bouyancy was adjusted by heating the gas. It IS irrelivant when you're adjusting the bouyancy by, say, using an electric motor to compress it into a tank. (Though other heat engine arguments do apply. See below.)

    The conservation of energy argument also applies. I'll show you where the detailed physics of the process make it show up when we get a little further along.

    Obviously you cannot make an engine that works in this way [losslessly], because the point of an engine is (1) to do net work or (2) to cause a heat transfer. So the efficiency of any engine cycle has a Carnot limit.

    Right.

    But the process you have described need not be an engine. In fact, this should be completely obvious. Since there is no net work being done, and no heat transfer, how on earth can you even define an thermodynamic efficiency for the cycle?

    Even the process of compressing and expanding the gas makes this into a heat engine. Compressing the gas heats it. The heat must be dumped. Expanding the gas cools it, and heat must be applied from an external source to bring it back to temperature.

    This doesn't make carnot apply, though. But it DOES lead to additional losses if you don't do your compression and expansion adiabatically.

    You must compress slowly, and dump the resulting heat without forcing it across a significant temparature difference. Similarly you must scavange the energy when it expands by running it through an airmotor to extract the energy and recharge your energy storage. (Otherwise the energy gets dumped.)

    But the temperature change takes place in the compressor/airmotor. This makes it very hard to add or dump the heat across negligible temperature gradient in order to perform the operation adibatically.

    (You also get losses in the generator/motor/battery system, or whatever you're using to store the energy for reuse. The total of these losses is so high you're probably ahead to do the bouyancy adjustments with heat in the first place. But then you ARE a carnot cycle heat engine.)

    All of the above are efficiency issues, however. They represent precentage losses of useful energy as it it transferred from one form to another (gas pressure, temperature, height of mass in gravity field, momentum, etc.)

    You ARE an engine, by the way, because you're doing work: Lifting and lowering the mass of the vehicle, driving the vehicle against air resistance.

    And you don't even need to get this complicated. (Slow) compression and expansion of an isolated volume of a gas is reversible and adiabatic. Hence it is isentropic.

    Right.

    But that doesn't mean the total cycle is reversible.

    In the airship case, the compression occurs when the ambient pressure is low, and the expansion when the ambient pressure is high. Even if your compressor/airmotor was perfect, the difference represents a loss of energy - specifically, the energy necessary to raise and lower the vehicle, which is lost to air friction from the vehicle's motion. (Thus conservation of energy is not violated.)

    So why not just use a propeller?

    If you're heating the gas to adjust the bouyancy, on the other hand, you ARE a heat engine. So you don't beat carnot, (and have to input maybe three or more times as

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  44. Helium isn't renewable by jamiethehutt · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It my be the second most common element in the universe but we have a hard time getting it. Helium is mined from limited reserves and like fossil fuels takes millions of years to be produced. For this to actually be reusable (for years to come) it has to use vacuum, or dare I say it, hydrogen. Hydrogen is easy to get hold off and only dangerous when mixed with oxygen. It also has much better lift. But I suppose I shouldn't complain when someone puts forward an idea for clean flight AND gets some attention.

  45. Drag, Weight , Size by captk00l · · Score: 3, Insightful

    One thing that everyone keeps forgetting is drag / weight / size. The type of equipment that this guy is talking about is going to take up a lot of space. Usually things that take up space weight something. Things that also take up space require energy to move them through the air. His only form of propulsion is gliding / compressed air, but gliders are usually extremely aerodynamic vehicles with a high glide ratio. Drag and the weight of the aircraft are directly related to such a ratio. So in theory, the super marine would go up, glide a foot, and then have to repeat. Not to mention maneuverability. Highly impractical.