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Young Programmer, Stop Advocating Free Software!

Lansdowne writes "Clemens Vasters, in an open letter to a young developer he met at a software conference, asks him to consider the consequences of writing software for free. "Software is the immediate result and the manifestation of what your learned and what you know. How much is that worth? Nothing? Think again."" While I don't particularly agree with all of the points made here, this is the type of question that needs to be answered to continue to get people involved in Free/Open/Libre/GNU/whatever source/software/code.

60 of 1,452 comments (clear)

  1. Site slashdot'ed befor it went live by mpost4 · · Score: 5, Informative

    So here is the text of the letter.

    ----

    Dear Aiden,

    I think you remember the conversation we had recently at this software conference in Dublin. You came up to me and told me how the stuff I was talking about was mostly useless, because it is closed-source, people need to pay for it and that companies charging for software are evil anyways - especially Microsoft. Unfortunately I don't have your email, but I am sure this will reach you.

    First, I would like to thank you for the interesting conversation that developed and to make sure that none of what was said just fades away, I'll tell you here once again what I am thinking about what you do, what you think and - most importantly about your future.

    When I was 21 - like you now - I was also at university and was pursing a computer science master degree. Back then, I was very enthusiastic about programming and creating stuff that mattered. And thought that I was the best programmer the field has ever seen and everyone else was mostly worthless. And I did indeed write some programs that mattered and made a difference. The program I spent some 3 years writing in Turbo Pascal from when I was 18 was for my father's business. Because the business he's in requires a lot of bureaucracy, he and my mother spent about 2-3 daily hours on average doing all of this stuff by hand. When I was done with my program and he started using it, that time went from 3 hours to about 15 minutes a day. That was software that absolutely improved the quality of life for the entire family! And his friends and colleagues loved it, too. I didn't sell many licenses at that time (I think I had 3 customers), but each one was worth 1500 German Marks and that was a huge heap of money for me. I mean - I was living at my parent's house, getting a monthly allowance of 120 German Marks and worked as a cable grip for a couple of TV stations every once in a while - maybe 2-3 times a month. And if I ever had 400 Marks per month I could really consider myself massively rich at the time and for my age, because I had very minimal additional expenses. So 4500 Marks on top of that? Fantastic. Where did the money go? I can't really remember where it all went, but I guess "lot of partying" or "Girls, Drugs and Rock'n'Roll" would be a reasonably good explanation. Hey, I was 21 and that's what one is supposed to do at that age, right?

    That was in 1990 - let's fast forward to 2004 and you. All software that you and your father could possibly be interested in has already been written. That's probably not true, but it's hard to think of something, right? Ok, the software may not run on your favorite operation system and may cost money, but what you can immediately think of is likely there. So where do you put all your energy? Into this absolutely amazing open-source project you co-coordinate. I mean, really, the stuff that you and your buddies are doing there is truly impressive. There are a couple of things I'd probably do differently in terms of design and architecture, but it works well and that's mostly what matters. And you do make an impact as well. I know that hundreds of people and dozens of companies use your stuff. That's great.

    However, I start to wonder where your benefit is. You are - out of principle - not making any money out of this, because it is open-source and you and your buddies insist that it must be absolutely free. So you are putting all of that time and energy into this project for what? Fame? To found a career? Come on.

    If someone installs your work from disc 3 of some Linux distro, they couldn't care less who you are. The whole fame thing you are telling me only works amongst geeks. The good looking, intelligent girl over there at the bar that you'd really like to talk to doesn't care much whether you are famous amongst a group of geeks and neither does she even remotely fathom why you'd be famous for that stuff in the first place. I mean - get real here.

    So once you get your degree from school, what's the plan?

    Right now,

    1. Re:Site slashdot'ed befor it went live by MotherInferior · · Score: 5, Funny

      So once you get your degree from school, what's the plan?

      To get outsourced.

    2. Re:Site slashdot'ed befor it went live by CynicTheHedgehog · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The money comes from the fact that no matter how long a free or commercial software program is developed and maintained it absolutely will not fit all of the needs of any organization. Currently I work for a company that uses three large closed-source systems for order entry, provisioning, and billing. As configurable as these systems are, I spend all of my time writing applications that apply our business logic on top of them. I am forced to reads/write from the DB, apply custom triggers, rewrite their stored procedures, and in some cases edit or replace ASPX files to attain the integration needed. Not only is this time-consuming, risky, and often inconvenient for users (trigger errors don't often bubble up to the UI in a friendly way), it also violates all kinds of support licenses, which is whole the point of buying these large closed-source systems in the first place.

      Now, back in the day we used Tomcat and wrote most of our stuff in-house. We had a need to write a custom security layer for authentication/authorization against both LDAP and a windows domain controller. Nothing like that existed, so we wrote one ourselves using the Tomcat SecurityPrincipal interface and simply pluging in our extensions. Took a day, at most, to write and test, whereas we would have had to jump through hoops for weeks on an IIS system.

      That's where your money comes from. Taking what's already written and what nobody wants to write again and adding business-specific logic, and integrating it with other systems. One of our vendors has changed their business model. They make virtually nothing on software sales and support, but they survive on their consultancy business. IBM is also doing this, and you can see by Microsoft's latest ISV push that they recognize this trend as well.

      The question now is do I pay for closed-source software and lock myself into consultancy from that one vendor, or do I use an open source package as my base and pick and choose the talent that I bring in to improve and maintain it? If it were my business, I would choose the latter.

    3. Re:Site slashdot'ed befor it went live by flacco · · Score: 5, Funny
      I'll keep it short: What a fucking retard.

      Why, you could practically hear the cobwebs gathering around his wizened face as he thought aaaallll the way back through the hoary ages to - gasp - 1990, when he was a carefree 21 year old like the addressee. someone get this incredibly wise 35-year-old a wheelchair before he keels over.

      The good looking, intelligent girl over there at the bar that you'd really like to talk to doesn't care much whether you are famous amongst a group of geeks and neither does she even remotely fathom why you'd be famous for that stuff in the first place. I mean - get real here.

      well, that was particularly insulting. nothing quite like the threat of "no pussy!" to drive intelligent young programmers away from open source / free software.

      unprincipled windbag.

      --
      pr0n - keeping monitor glass spotless since 1981.
    4. Re:Site slashdot'ed befor it went live by Psyx · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's so very Ayn Rand.

    5. Re:Site slashdot'ed befor it went live by alx512 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      If I may use myself as a counterpoint:

      First some background: I'm 28 years old, and dropped out of college my senior year because jobs were flying at me right and left.

      Any software I write on my own is for my own personal enjoyment and education, is GPL'd, and I would be tickled pink if other people found it useful enough to them to use it.

      As for the car, the house, the family? Because of my love for writing software, and willingness to keep honing my craft even during non-working hours, I am able to enjoy a 6 figure salary complete with loving wife, 2000 sq. foot home, and I own two brand new Lexus. Even in a down economy I am able to do this. Oh yeah, I also work for a non-profit org.

      What keeps me employed and employable? My knowledge and experience with open source software. There is only one piece of software I use at work that is not open source, and that is Oracle, which is not even in my core skillset. My knowledge of Linux, a large set of apache products, and several other open source packages, are more valuable to me careerwise than knowledge of Oracle.

      What do I consider the holy grail of my career? I asked James Duncan Davidson (Ant, Tomcat fame) at a local JUG meeting one time how authoring open source software has helped his career? He said that being able to put on his resume that he wrote Ant has given him the ability to just walk into any shop he wants and get a job. That is currently what I would like to accomplish. It may not ever happen, but that doesn't matter either. What does matter, is that I am enjoying life as it is, tinkering with free software even though it may never make me rich.

      I don't expect to become a millionaire from writing software. That kind of wealth will come from investing and smart business decisions. But, I hate business, and I love writing software, so I really don't care if I never become a millionaire, as long as I can still write software, I will be happy with my six figure income.

      As perhaps a stronger counterpoint, Bill Gates didn't become the richest man in the world from software. He became the richest man in the world by being a brilliant business man.

  2. not worth nothing by stonebeat.org · · Score: 5, Informative

    read this: Indirect Sale-Value Models and Give Away the Recipe, Open a Restaurant. Eirc Raymond tells you how to make money from OS/Free software.

  3. So in other words... by awol · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A guy who has already built his reputation and established his "above wage earning" credentials in the industry wants all those that have yet to acquire that valuable resource to stop trying, or at least to start earning wages and preserve the satus quo that has served him so well so far.

    Well unless the letter was a very elegant piece of irony (and I doubt it). He should STFU and help these young subversives bring down the pillars of the temple that has so elegantly enslaved us all. Ok that last bit is a little severe but it's pretty close.

    --
    "The first thing to do when you find yourself in a hole is stop digging."
  4. Question by mytec · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I'm on the fence with this issue. I see the side about earning a paycheck. I understand the rewards that go along with altruism. I understand the need for standards and most importantly open standards. But, we all need to make a paycheck. Plain and simple. Say for a moment free software does continue to be successful, even enormously successful over the next few years, what does the future look like to those thinking of entering the field at that time?

  5. If free=valueless, how about the letter itself? by noidentity · · Score: 5, Insightful

    ...Consider the consequences of writing software for free. "Software is the immediate result and the manifestation of what your learned and what you know. How much is that worth? Nothing? Think again."

    Applying this logic to the letter itself, offered for free (the horror!), an interesting conclusion is reached regarding its value.

  6. Re:worth? by dave-tx · · Score: 5, Insightful
    why is worth always measured in money?

    Mostly because it's money that puts food on the table and a roof over the head. And in the end, those are two very important things in life.

    --

    >> "What would the robut do? Frame someone!"

  7. Amen. by sosume · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I couldn't agree more wholehearted. Indeed, when I was 20, I thought that all software had to be free. Now that I'm (past) 30, I sometimes wonder where all the paychecks get paid from.

    1. Re:Amen. by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is when people start using words like "all." Does all software need to be free? Of course not. Does all software need to be proprietary? Again, of course not. Stallman on one end and Gates on the other are both fanatics. (It's a pity that we live in a society that categorizes the former as a fanatic but gives the latter a free pass, but that's a whole 'nother argument.) In between are those of us who recognize that a mix of distribution models is both possible and desirable.

      I work for a small company that makes money by selling proprietary software. I'm the DBA, and get my work done using primarily free tools (MySQL, PHP, Perl, Apache, Linux, BSD.) I also write open-source software on my own time. Everybody wins.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    2. Re:Amen. by jwthompson2 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Agreed.

      I work for a company that releases all our software as free software but makes money by supporting it, cutomizing it and consulting on it. Our market is small and developers are few, but we get the job done, and no one is going hungry as far as I know. I don't have any animosity towards Microsoft except as it relates to the fact that their software exposes me to a great deal of risk because of the bugs, but I think they have every right to do software the way they have chosen. Open Source and Free Software isn't the only way to do software, but it can many times be the better way to do software from a quality and agility standpoint...

      That's my $0.02...

      --
      Even if I knew that tomorrow the world would go to pieces, I would still plant my apple tree. -Martin Luther
    3. Re:Amen. by Frymaster · · Score: 5, Interesting
      exactly... it's important to realize that while software can be a commodity brokered for cash, it is far from being the only revenue stream and is, in most cases, not even the most valuable one. in the "information services" world you can make a tonne of money:

      1. providing support
      2. customization
      3. install and maintainance
      4. using the software to sell tangible goods
      5. using the software to attract eyeballs for ads

      you can run those revenue streams on open or closed wares... and if anything, the above revenue models will be more successful on opensource wares because they are more reliable (as in they won't disappear if the partent company goes out of business) and the talent pool for using them is greater.

      if it wasn't for oss wares, my company wouldn't even exist and i wouldn't have this job. period.

    4. Re:Amen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The paychecks come from all the "evil corporations" which are bashed so frequently here at /.

    5. Re:Amen. by kmonsen · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Two things:

      * You probability of getting a job is much better with a nice project on your resume. Before you start working, on open source project could open a lot of doors.

      * Some people do things to advance the society, medicine sans frontiers or red cross workers for example. Major contributions to open software is also helping since it opens the playing field for poor countries.

    6. Re:Amen. by mr_majestyk · · Score: 5, Insightful

      no one is going hungry as far as I know

      The point is that as a good programmer, you should be able to do much better than simply "not go hungry".

      What the Open Source movement often overlooks is that a vast continuum of software businesses exists that are not monopolies, but still do a very good - and respected - business licensing closed source software. These softwware products benefits customers and partners who have a choice of suppliers, while delivering extraordinary rewards for employees.

      It sometimes seems that Open Source rhetoric assumes that all Closed Source == Microsoft, and therefore must be eliminated.

    7. Re:Amen. by zbuffered · · Score: 5, Insightful

      if it wasn't for oss wares, my company wouldn't even exist and i wouldn't have this job. period.

      That's what this guy Clemens was saying, though... The OSS programmer does his work for free. If he is a part of a larger group, selling support, or using the free software to help sell hardware, then that's one thing, but in many circumstances people who develop free software do so independently of larger backing -- they do it out of the goodness of their heart, their desire to contribute. That doesn't pay the bills. Then, companies such as yours take his work, make it their own (as they have every right to do--he specifically grants them that right when he releases the software), and profit from it. He not only doesn't profit from his software, he enables others to profit from it.

      Clemens' argument is specific to this kid's circumstance, where the kid may want to spend most of his working life writing free software as opposed to the other kind, and in the specific case(the program being developed independently with a group contributing their time for free) I think the argument is accurate.

      --
      Synergy is your friend
    8. Re:Amen. by S.O.B. · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm confused, how does making someone pay me for the time it took to write software "restricting the freedom" or "violating the rights" of your "fellow human beings".

      If we extend your argument to lets say farming, a farmer that charges for the food he produces is violating the rights of anyone who doesn't want to pay him for his labour. It cost him time and money to produce that food and he likely has a family to support. Why shouldn't he be able to charge a resonable price for his product.

      Now if you want to grow food in your backyard and give it away that's your choice but don't suggest that because he made a different choice that it violates people's rights.

      --
      Some of what I say is fact, some is conjecture, the rest I'm just blowing out my ass...you guess.
    9. Re:Amen. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Gates is not fanatical about all software being 'non-free'. Proprietary yes.

      I think you are confused. "Non-free" is the very meaning of "proprietary".

      Furthermore, Gates isn't fanatical about software being proprietary; Microsoft has released stuff under the GPL. You may be confused if you believe what Microsoft say in press releases, but you have to understand that this is not the truth. They say whatever will make them money - Microsoft is a business like any other in this respect.

      Microsoft produces plenty of software that runs on Windows and OSX that's (surprise, surprise) actually free.

      Oh, I see. You are talking about free as in beer. You are talking at cross-purposes to the rest of Slashdot then.

      If all software was free, there would be no software industry

      Of course there would. I'll give you an example.

      I run a web development agency. A lot of our websites run on Apache/PHP. Sometimes PHP only does 99% of what we need it to. So we fix up PHP to do what we want, and send in a patch.

      If we didn't send in the patch, we'd end up having to maintain our own special branch of PHP, which would be a waste of resources.

      Did I mention that we don't work for free?

      How about another example? IBM makes money from providing tailor-made solutions to people who really don't want to worry about building their networks and maintaining their systems themselves.

      IBM needs to provide a combination of hardware, software, and expertise. To get the software, they can either pay another company a lot of money, develop an operating system themselves, or use an existing, Free operating system as a base.

      It makes sense to use the third option, right? But that doesn't mean they have to contribute back. They could base it off FreeBSD and keep it closed-source. The only trouble is that if they want to keep up with FreeBSD (or whatever), they need to maintain their own special branch, same as us and PHP. It ends up being more trouble than it's worth. After all, why would IBM care about people copying their software - they aren't in the business of selling software, they are in the business of selling complete solutions.

      Of course, IBM need a good pool of expertise in the market to hre their employees from. If they keep their operating system locked up, where is that expertise going to come from? All their employees will have to be trained in-house, and there won't be a thriving development community around it in the way that there is around FreeBSD/Linux/etc.

      What you are saying is that if all software was Free, there wouldn't be much money to be made in licensing software. But there is still plenty of money to be made in developing software.

      it's idiocy to be fanatical about open source as the only solution.

      It's idocy to be fanatical about anything. But who's being fanatical? I see a letter aimed at trying to dissuade somebody from working on Free Software at all. That sounds like the person writing the letter is the fanatic.

    10. Re:Amen. by FooBarWidget · · Score: 5, Funny

      So far no one has explained to me why books shouldn't be "free" and humans should.

    11. Re:Amen. by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Because the vast bulk of paid software development is done in-house to solve specific business problems, IMO free software creates more jobs than it destroys. My company can afford to pay me a decent salary in large part because they don't have to pay Oracle or Microsoft a fortune for proprietary tools that offer little if any advantage over the free tools I use.

      You're right, if you "wrote an open-source implementation of the core software in your company," I'd be SOL. But that's unlikely, because the software we sell is very specialized, requiring a great deal of technical knowledge to create, sell, and maintain. (And, for that matter, use.) It's a hell of a lot easier to find OSS developers for a DBMS, OS, general-purpose programming language, or Web server than for image processing and management software specific to microscopic images. This, IMO, is the future of proprietary software: niche-market apps which require specialized knowledge to produce will continue to command a premium, while general-purpose apps such as OS's and DBMS's will increasingly tend to be free.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    12. Re:Amen. by BinxBolling · · Score: 5, Insightful
      charge people $199 for a $0.10 piece of plastic

      Only the second and later pieces of plastic cost $0.10 to make. The first one can cost tens or even hundreds of millions. Who'd buy that?

      It's fantastically disingenous to consider only the marginal cost of media to a piece of software's price tag, and to ignore the economic reality that developing a piece of software the scale of what MS delivers requires a huge up-front R&D investement.

    13. Re:Amen. by dsasser · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > Why? Is programming talent scarce? It seems to me that it's not. Not even hardly; leaving code monkeys out of it, good programmers are 99 cents a pound.

      Please send some of them my way. We're hiring and it seems like we have to go through a lot of hamburger to find the good stuff.

      On the other, perhaps we're talking about different things. I'm not looking for people who can crank code. I'm looking for people who can figure out what code to crank what code not to.

      Value add is in solving someone's problem, not KLOCs

      --
      Dewey
  8. I don't consider it to be given away for nothing. by Realistic_Dragon · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My contribution is worth nothing compared to the vast resource open source gives me.

    Even for prolific contributers who have give millions of lines of code this probably holds true. Even for Linus Open Source code has returned the rest of an operating system, status, and one hell of a CV - arguably more than he has contributed.

    Even if my contribution of a few simple lines were enough to contribute to the downfall of the software market, then I consider the fact that I have to work in something other than programming (which I do) to be not a price but an indication that things are working well - the overall (knowlage) wealth of mankind is increasing so not so much heavy labour in software is required and energy can be focused elsewhere. That's what progress is all about.

    --
    Beep beep.
  9. Re:worth? by Em+Emalb · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Amen.

    People will get it as they get older.

    Doing stuff for free is great, as long as it doesn't interfere with putting food in my belly and doesn't stop me from living my life the way I want to.

    I think a lot of the people who are screaming free everything haven't yet had the pleasure of being on their own, or being responsible for their house, car, food, clothing, utils, wife, etc.

    Of course, I'm sure someone here will correct me, I couldn't possibly know what I'm talking about.

    --
    Sent from your iPad.
  10. Not programmers, but companies should release OSS by Erik+Hensema · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are plenty of companies paying programmers good money to write free software. They want the software, and they believe that the quality of the software will increase by releasing the source. Or they believe they will sell more hardware when the software running on it is free. Or they sell support on the software they release.

    Nobody asks a programmer to work for free. The author of the letter thinks that releasing code for free equals not getting paid for writing it. Think again.

    --

    This is your sig. There are thousands more, but this one is yours.

  11. Re:You can't have it both ways ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Your post shows a clear misunderstanding of the software industry and what coders do. The vast majority of coders in the world aren't working on off the shelf software, which by and large Open Source/FOSS software replaces. Most work on bespoke applications for business. I have worked on perhaps 10 different software projects, only one of which had the aim of producing an off the shelf package (which failed to sell by the way), all the others were bespoke projects.

    This is where most coders work, this is where most of the money is (unless you happen to write windows or office) and this is why Windows so dominates the desktop environment, because MS made it easy for people to create bespoke applications.

    People will write free operating systems and database engines and paint programs, but if I want a bespoke package written to my spec to run my company then I have to pay for it, and that's where coders make their money.

  12. Linus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Linus has a very nice car, and house 8)

  13. Re:Eeeep. by radja · · Score: 5, Insightful

    and if that girl suddenly starts liking me because of my "big-load-o-cash"(tm), I probably wont like her anymore.

    --

    No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
    --Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
  14. Day job by ultrabot · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What if a given person already has a job?

    Most OSS developers are very talented (they wouldn't love what they are doing otherwise). They shouldn't have much problems landing a good job.

    Or does the old fart indeed think that a guy should found a business on a project they create during their studying days? Does he think that the guy doesn't have what it takes to get a day job, so he should grasp the first straw he can get, i.e. his OSS project.

    Getting bundled on a Linux distro is a bigger honor than most of us in OSS will ever get.

    --
    Save your wrists today - switch to Dvorak
  15. Well, I suppose he has a point... by jmccarthy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    But, to me, it's like chiding someone for working in the Peace Corps. Sure, you're not going to get rich or much recognition for it, but that doesn't mean it's not a worthwhile thing to do.

  16. I'm a capitalist... by nsxdavid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm a capitalist, I believe in making money from what I do. No question about it. The programming I do does not go for free. In fact, over the years I've been rather well compensated, especially in the good times.

    But when I was just getting started... when I was just a "young programmer" I wrote software and gave it away for free. This was long before the idea of GPL and such (AFAIK). My first big give-away success was FRPBBS, a piece of C64 BBS software that was unique in that it focused around running online roleplaying sessions. Those were the days!

    That part of my life was absolutely essential to what I do today. I know employ a goodly number of people and contribute to our economy. And I owe a lot of that to the early experiences, encouragement and sheer fun of being able to put my code "out there".

    Shall we do away with the Olympics because all endevors should yield an immediate profit? Small minds fail to graps the big picture yet again.

    --
    David Whatley
  17. Re:PS to letter by AndroidCat · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Harsh. He doesn't say don't trust your fellow programmers, he says don't trust the companies making a lot of money using software they didn't have to pay to develop.

    His letter is basically "What's your plan for moving out of your parents' place?"

    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  18. Simple reason, everyone wins by KamuSan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Real life programming jobs stink. They're usually not that interesting, but just flat business apps without depth, but with time constraints, byzantine politics, incompetent project managers and bizarrely generic business requirements.

    So what do you do in your spare time? You work on your pet project, in which you can apply all the knowledge and nifty things you learned and/or you ever read about. And hey! It looks good on your resume too, because your real job doesn't give you the experience in those new technologies that your future employer/customer wants/needs.

    And besides, Open Source is good for everyone, because the guys who do use your stuff can concentrate on delivering value to their customers, ie. writing boring business apps that implement the functionality that their customer asks for in their bizarre and overly vague requirements. And they also save time, so they can meet the deadline that their horse ass project manager has set all on his own.

    Everyone wins with Open Source I think. It gives you the opportunity to start programming at a higher level of functionality.
    When it is called 'culture', everybody agrees that it's been a good thing for ages.

    PS. That's why software patents are bad. They block this culture, this incremental growth in knowledge.

  19. Re:worth? by BJZQ8 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Then again, confining yourself solely to "for-pay" endeavors is probably not the best thing in the world either...there is a balance to be struck somewhere...I can't believe that refusing to contribute to something just because it doesn't "pay in cash" is the best course of life. I mean, just think of where projects like Apache and Linux have gotten us...and just think where they could go if a few more people counted their "pay" in more than monetary terms. Sure, contributing to an open-source project is not likely to pay your bills, and for that reason I don't think a "free only" software world will work...but contributing to an open project now and then certainly cannot be as worthless of an effort as the letter-writer claims it to be.

  20. Worth by SpamJunkie · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is the same issue that many scientists face, and I would guess many other fields. If you measure worth in money than there is less that can be said for giving your work away for free. While there are companies releasing their source for free while posting profits there are many more open source projects making no money and closed source companies making lots of money. If the two are mutually exclusive which matters more to you?

    In science there is the opportunity to work in an interesting field while working for a corporation. The problem is the work will become patent encumbered and proprietary as soon as it has any value. To let other people share in the success, and even improve upon it, something like a University grant is required for which the pay is lower.

    You do your best every day of your life, make major discoveries and solve complex problems, and then you die. If you work for a corporation it's likely that your work will remain the private property of that corporation long after you're dead, with most people associating your work with the company and not you. However, if you gave up potential money to share your work then it is more likely to live on with little chance that your work will be associated with anyone besides you. So, ecide which you find more compelling.

  21. This guy must be right! by httpdotcom · · Score: 5, Funny

    No one in OSS has ever made a living making free software. Those guys at Apache, Samba, and the ISC must be "giving handjobs for cash"* to sustain their miserable little lives. And I am sure that Linus is just squeking by on foodstamps and cat food. * obligatory South Park quote, so don't do drugs mmm-kay

  22. Re:worth? by Mr.+Mikey · · Score: 5, Insightful

    People will get it as they get older.

    I'm 41 years old. I "got" that there is more to life than doing things for money a long, long time ago.

    Doing stuff for free is great, as long as it doesn't interfere with putting food in my belly and doesn't stop me from living my life the way I want to.

    Fortunately, no one is demanding that you not feed yourself, or that you not live your life as you choose. Why the "Straw Man"?
    --
    wants to be the first monkey to touch the monolith
  23. Re:worth? by JeanBaptiste · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "many great artworks and musical works were done for free."

    and many more were done for profit. Michaelangelo got paid for painting the sistine chapel. Bach, Beethoven, Mozard, Handel, etc pretty much got paid for anything they ever did.

    Yes, you can do stuff just for 'love'. But after RTFA I would tend to side more with the author... then again the 'Open Source' thing isnt a religion to me.

    meh. to each their own.

  24. Missing a point by Walkiry · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The people who contribute to those free OSS projects don't do that because they think it'd be neat if such and such software would exist for someone to use, in most cases (I can't say for sure "in all cases", blame me for being a scientist) they work in a project because that particular piece of software is something they want to use themselves.

    See, there's so much I can do on my own. But if I want something done, and by letting you use my code I'll get some of yours in exchange, I've actually gained something, I've gained the hours of work it'd have taken to add that code, correct my bugs, or whatever that other person who uses my code gives me. That's the heart of the GPL.

    If I have to put a value of n dollars per line of code, does that mean someone who sends me (or the public repository) y lines is actually giving me/us money? Is code worth a lot? Yes, that's why getting extra code on top of mine is a good value I get for releasing my software for free.

    --
    ---- Take the Space Quiz!
  25. Most software is not sold that way by 91degrees · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I know a lot of people who create software. Out of all of them, I think I am the only one who works on software that is sold on a cost-per copy basis.

    Most programmers write software used internally for highly specialised purposes, or a custom application targetted at a single customer. Most of these organisations make great use of free software, and many contribute their changes back to the community. Other people produce drivers - which are given away for free with hardware - and third party defence systems with a single customer willing to pay a lot of money.

    Added to this, most people are not willing to pay enough for software to make it worth marketing. His example of the software he wrote is an exception. Very rarely does software have a perceived value of several hundred dollars. Even if it does, it is often cheaper and easie to write it yourself. If people are going to do that, then you might as well give them a headstart.

  26. I am an asset. Not my code. by Rahga · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sorry, but in my case, it's true. I work for a small-ish "GIS company" that makes a name for itself by not being a traditional GIS company, but a knowledge company. We serve our customers by providing software that they need... but as I'm reminded all the time from the higher-ups, the value of the company is not really in the software, but in the employees. If all of the programmers suddenly disappeared, it would be practically impossible to replace them.

    That said, they also use a lot of free and open source software internally (esp. bugzilla and apache), and see no problems with employees giving back.

  27. Practicality by Boing · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I really think that no one should be arguing with this guy unless they have been making a sustainable living writing and supporting Free/Open Source software. This means supporting a family in a reasonably nice environment, folks.

    I saw a post from some seventeen year old bragging about how he'd been working on open source stuff for a while, and isn't that just fine. But sorry, at seventeen you know so little that you don't even realize how little you know.

    Sure, we can all point to Linus and ESR and say "Hey, they've made it big, therefore the business model to which we aspire must be valid!"... It may be valid, but it's hardly useful to refer to anecdotal evidence in support of that point.

    So I reiterate - the only people I will personally listen to in this thread are people who can personally attest to living in the REAL world, and living REAL lives, entirely on Open Source dollars.

  28. ...and Clemens' reaction by l0wland · · Score: 5, Informative

    I thought the site came in pretty quick. If not, read Clemens' reaction to all the opposition.

    ---

    Free stuff vs. free stuff

    Of course my letter to Aiden is prompting some opposition. It may be worth noting that a very large proportion of the code that I write ends up being public and there's more stuff brewing as we speak. There is little need to educate me about giving. I am an educator. Sharing insight and therefore sharing manifestations of that insight in form of source code is my mission and part of my business. But this is not the business my clients are in and neither is it the business of most of the thousands of developers I am honored to speak for at conferences each year. Their business is about being paid for writing software. If they weren't paid, I wouldn't be paid. My job description is to figure out fundamental stuff and use my natural "understand very complex things thoroughly and rapidly" skill that I was luckily blessed with, so that I can explain those things to them and they can focus on solving customer problems. My free stuff helps my customers and is also playing a marketing role for me an my company. Our free stuff is a calculated investment. We can and do attach a number to it. dasBlog is a freebie for others but represents a significant investment that's worth several tens of thousands of Euros. It's not free, at all.

    We support a project that brings us some indirect value. However, we do not in any way force any code republishing requirements upon the folks who'd like to reuse our code (we have a strict "no GPL" policy; our code is BSD licensed). We don't depend on a community of volunteers to turn dasBlog into a dominant blogging tool that we can benefit from by commerically supporting it. We believe that if we wanted to benefit from the software directly, we would have to rearchitect and rebuild it (or at least restrict ourselves to newtelligence contributions) and then sell it as a fully supported commercial product. My personal sense of respect and fairness tells me that I will not and should not exploit the others guys that have contributed to the free version of dasBlog. It's their hobby and their work is their work. I think a company like Red Hat, which is a public company (which did yield a significant "going public benefit" to their founders) and is profiting from the work of countless unpaid volunteers and enthusiasts, is a very clever, but deeply unethical entity.

    I do believe in giving and I do believe that there is value for the community at large in sharing insight through source code. But we don't share the view that software is free or should be free. Someone pays for it. We have an investment in software that is free for others to use, MySQL has, HP has, IBM has, Sun has and - believe it or not - even Microsoft has. We do that as part of a well thought out and well understood business strategy.

    I understand open source. I do open source. I do so because I am aware of what it can and can not do for a company. I think I have a pretty good understanding on what's going on in this business. If it becomes the norm that the people providing outsourcing, system administration, hardware, and consulting make orders of magnitudes more money than the creative force, the software engineers and architects who are envisioning and building the foundation for this industry, something is stinking. And it stinks a lot already.

    Also, if you say that I am confusing "free software" and "open source". I am not. "Open" is the political argumentation line, "free" is the economic argumentation line of the same thing. If this sort of confusion exists for mostly everyone and one of the most often repeated line in OSS arguments is "you don't understand the difference", then that's caused by the simple fact that these terms are simply two angles of looking at the same story. The OSS "eco-system" only functions because both is true.

    Matthew, selfish is not the one who wants to get a tangible reward for his work. Selfish is the one who denies that reward.

    --

    "Honey, I feel a certain distance between us..." "Really? A 31ms ping ain't that bad..."
  29. Re:The value of software by cybermace5 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you want to make money by selling software, then yes, Open Source is financial suicide.

    If you want to make money by giving away software and selling support, then Open Source is iffy but has a chance of working. You can often be replaced cheaper by an in-house programmer or local consultant.

    However, if you want to make your own software to USE that helps your company make money, then Open Source is invaluable. If others can put portions of your application to good use, then they will help develop it and everyone benefits.

    Still, though, any Open Source work cuts down on the available paid work for programmers, because it is efficient and may be supplemented by free coders. So Open Source makes a lot of sense for companies as a whole, perhaps less sense for individual programmers who want to make a living; pretty similar actually to the effect of outsourcing.

    Compare how long Linux and DOS/Windows have both existed. Bill Gates is a multi-billionaire, Linus Torvalds is a multi-thousandaire. It's up to the individual to decide if they value a contribution to the computing community more than personal gain.

    --
    ...
  30. Re:PS to letter by fingusernames · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The point was not that you must make money from everything you do. The point is that you *must* make some money to provide for yourself and your family. In the ideal world promoted by many, and apparently Aiden, no software would carry a monetary cost. In that world, how much are software developers worth? How will professional developers make ends meet? Yes, money is annoying, yes, excessive greed is bad. However, in the real world, one needs money to buy food, clothing, housing, computers, and the other stuff we need or want. Doing open source is fine. But, unless you are lucky in being able to make some money from it, treat it like your hobby, not your job.

    As for making money from your education, while I am the first to point out that one should not base one's education solely on one's vocational interest (e.g. take lots and lots of elective courses outside of your focus, feed your mind while you can), if, like me, you spent tens of thousands of your own (not your fellow citizen's via the confiscation of the government) dollars/euros/whatever on that education, it is reasonable that you find some way to actually provide for yourself with the fruits of your education. 'Would you like fries with that?' isn't something a bright and educated person should be saying in the course of their job.

    Larry

  31. Re:PS to letter by TigerNut · · Score: 5, Insightful
    That's pretty crass. I don't think that Clemens' comments were nearly as cynical as you're making them out to be there. All he's saying is that outside of a tight-knit community, there is NO value or recognition attached to the fact you're doing software as part of an open-source community, and unless you're planning to remain inside that community for the rest of your life, you should recognize that the rest of the world does not provide valuable services for free, and you will need to be able to compensate them in order to get stuff you need to live. Writing software for money is a good way to do that.

    Before everyone gets all uppity: I think that when it comes to basic underlying architecture, there is no better way to ensure quality and performance, than to get lots of eyes on the the source code. In that respect, open source environments, where there are a large number of volunteers willing to scrutinize implementation details, will guarantee that lurking issues get addressed in due course.

    But 'open' doesn't necessarily imply 'free'. As Clemens says, your skills are valuable, and while you're at a stage where coding is 'fun', being able to say 'all the Linux users are using my kernel mod' doesn't pay the rent.

    --

    Less is more.

  32. A good mix by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The problem is when people start using words like "all." Does all software need to be free? Of course not. Does all software need to be proprietary? Again, of course not.

    Not only that, not all software that *this guy* writes has to be free. I definitely disagree with the article writer's assumption that "fame" won't get you a job - in CS, employers want porfolios, and working on Open Source is a great way to get that experience before someone will pay you.

    Second, even if one *has* a job, working for a free project is (in effect, or in the case of FSF, actually) charity work. I guess computer scientists are the only ones to donate their skills to a good cause? Because Doctors Without Borders doesn't do anything like that. And lawyers never do pro bono work right?

    As you say, I'm having a hard time seeing who loses - I've never heard of someone who does good work for a free project and can't parlay that into a job, and the output is (with the exception of anything GUI) top-notch.

  33. Re:PS to letter by rvega · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And don't forget that women are only interested in your money! That good looking, intelligent girl over there at the bar could never fathom that you have heart and soul and integrity and have contributed something valuable to the world without demanding payment in kind. No, you'd better be making big bucks before thinking about talking to her.

    Maybe that's the kind of girl he married and is still bitter about it...

  34. net result by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As was pointed out in the letter, a lot of the really useful software ideas have already been realized. Of course, there will always be new hardware, and new drivers for it, etc...but how many new word processors or operating systems will there be?

    Even in a world where there was no open source software, there would be precious few closed source solutions, with a handful of programmers maintaining them. Closed source doesn't magically guarantee that every programmer will have a job. Nor does the existance of an open source alternative put all the programmers out of a job.

    Already, most programming jobs in America are something OTHER than creating an office suite or an operating system. Programmers do innovate new solutions, usually right on the payroll of the single company that needs that solution. Thats the world of programming in America, and those programmers will have jobs reguardless of the prominence of open source software.

    The author's fundmental premise is sound: you need money to earn a living. However, the next premise: if you work on open source, there will be no money, is seriously questionable.

    --AC

    1. Re:net result by Star+Stealing+Girl · · Score: 5, Insightful
      "Writing free software doesn't help people improve their lives. It helps big corporations turn a profit. How does having free software help any one live a happier life? There is very little that some one needs a computer for outside of working. So, in effect, what you are doing is working for free so that other people can use your software to make some money for themselves."

      So the only people using free software are big corporations? Ever heard of non-profit organizations? You know, the ones that exist to help people and communities? The less they have to spend on their IT and technology, the more money they have to spend on helping people. Helping people live a happier life.

      --
      All my money went to Nigeria and all I got was this lousy sig. . .
  35. Apply this logic to math: by Hoplite3 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Dear Newton,

    I think you remember the conversation we had recently at this university in Cambridge. You came up to me and told me how the math I was talking about was mostly useless, because it is a mystical secret where people need to be inducted into a secret soceity to use it and those who divulge it are killed. Unfortunately I don't have your letter, but I am sure this will reach you.

    First, I would like to thank you for the interesting conversation that developed and to make sure that none of what was said just fades away, I'll tell you here once again what I am thinking about what you do, what you think and - most importantly about your future.

    When I was young - like you now - I was also at university and was pursing a natural philosophy degree. Back then, I was very enthusiastic about mathematics as a humanitarian discipline. And thought that I was the best mathematician in the field has ever seen and everyone else was mostly worthless. And I did indeed derive some theorems that mattered and made a difference. The theory I spent some 3 years writing in algebra from when I was 18 was to solve a problem for my father's business. Because the business he's in requires a lot of interest calulations, he and my mother spent about 2-3 daily hours on average doing all of this stuff by hand. Using my theorem, that time went from 3 hours to about 15 minutes a day. That was math that absolutely improved the quality of life for the entire family! And his friends and colleagues loved it, too. I didn't sell many licenses at that time (I think I had 3 customers), but each one was worth 1500 Brittish Pounds and that was a huge heap of money for me. Where did the money go? I can't really remember where it all went, but I guess "lot of partying" or "Girls, Drugs and Minuettes" would be a reasonably good explanation. Hey, I was 21 and that's what one is supposed to do at that age, right?

    That was in 1640 - let's fast forward to 1669 and you. All math that you and your father could possibly be interested in has already been written. That's probably not true, but it's hard to think of something, right? Ok, the math may not be easy to understand with your notation and may cost money, but what you can immediately think of is likely there. So where do you put all your energy? Into this absolutely amazing free math project you co-coordinate. I mean, really, the stuff that you and your buddies are doing with derivatives is truly impressive. There are a couple of things I'd probably do differently in terms of notation, but it works well and that's mostly what matters.

    However, I start to wonder where your benefit is. You are - out of principle - not making any money out of this, because it is free and you and your buddies insist that it must be absolutely free. So you are putting all of that time and energy into this project for what? Fame? To found a career? Come on.

    In the end, Newton, it's your choice. Do you want to have a horse, a house and a family when you are 30? Do you love being a Natural Philosopher at the same time? If so, you literally need to get a life. Forget the dream about stuff being free and stop advocating it. It's idiocy. It's bigotry. If you want to put your skills to work and you need to support a family, your work and work results can't be free. Math is the immediate result and the manifestation of what your learned and what you know. How much is that worth? Nothing? Think again.

    With best wishes for your future

    Cardan

    --
    Use the Firehose to mod down Second Life stories!
  36. Here is the text of ... by mav[LAG] · · Score: 5, Informative

    ...another letter.

    Dear Aiden,
    I don't know you from a bar of soap but I'd like to encourage you in your efforts developing Free Software. I understand your antipathy towards Microsoft given its track record of mocking, attacking and undermining Free Software but don't waste your energy hating it. It is, as Professor Eben Moglen, counsel for the Free Software Foundation, said the other day, on the wrong side of the software movement. Rather continue to write, improve upon, distribute and enourage others to use Free Software. And don't think you aren't perfectly entitled to charge money for Free Software - I do it for a living and it earns me quite a lot of money.

    I'm not going to bore you with all the stupid Pascal stuff I did at your age, neither will I drivel on about making a few bucks from the odd software sale. What I will say is this: make sure you do something that you really enjoy for a living when you finally need to earn a living. Never take a job on the money alone. To spend most of your time doing something you hate just because the paycheck is good is soul-destroying. Using a job as a stepping stone is fine, but make sure you have a goal to do what you want. Don't worry if this process takes ten or fifteen years - you can still have lots of fun along the way while picking up experience. And there's at least one attractive woman out there who will love you for who you are, not how much you earn. You'll find her if you keep looking. Sometimes you'll find that she was there all the time - just that you didn't notice. Good luck.

    You sound like you have much enthusiasm for programming. That's great - and one day it might provide you with a steady income. Developing Free Software teaches you all sorts of good habits which will stand you in good stead in the real world: client expectations, deadlines, having to work with obnoxious idiots who are nonetheless brilliant coders, version control and a passion for elegance and cleanliness. Even if it doesn't and you do something else for a living, writing Free Software is a pleasant part-time addiction that can provide many happy hours - I hesitate to say relaxation - occupation for your mind.

    Free Software is not a myth or a lie: it is the largest single technical knowledge repository on the planet available to all who want at no charge. None of the code contained therein has been obtained by trickery or extortion. On the contrary, hundreds of thousands of intelligent coders want what you want: to program cool stuff and share it with others. And they have done so. There is no food chain in Free Software. It is perfectly possible for a young University student like yourself to change the world given enough talent, hard work and help from like-minded people (you may have noticed this somewhere before).

    Like some other correspondents of yours, I also happen to know a few choice quotes about political systems. But since none of them shed any light whatsoever on the process of or motivation for writing Free Software, I will not waste your time with them.

    You will encounter opposition from many quarters. Some of this opposition will be from genuinely concerned but misguided people who want to deny reality, ignorant as they are about the 21st century, the market share of Apache or sendmail, and the difference between bits and atoms. Some will even call you stupid or a bigot. Don't worry. You will be proud one day to tell your grandchildren that you created a program that thousands of people - maybe even millions - used to improve their lives. Right now your skills and enthusiasm are of enormous worth to yourself and many others. Many people will appreciate it when you share and share alike. And that by itself is worth much more than choosing life, a career, or a fscking big television.

    --
    --- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
  37. Re:PS to letter by kyz · · Score: 5, Informative
    I'm not surprised, he gets his pay-cheques thanks to Microsoft:

    Clemens Vasters is co-founder and executive team member of newtelligence AG, a developer services company headquartered in Germany. He is a Microsoft Regional Director for Germany. A well-known developer and architect trainer, he is a popular conference speaker, author/co-author of several books, and maintains a widely read and frequently referenced Weblog focused on architectural and development topics at http://staff.newtelligence.com/clemensv.

    In 2003 alone Clemens has spoken at over 40 events in 21 countries across Europe, Asia, and the United States, including numerous high profile conferences such as the Microsoft TechEd events in Dallas/USA, Barcelona/Spain and Kuala Lumpur/Malaysia.
    The focus of his work is to help customers understand and realize the potential of web services and service oriented architectures, using present and future Microsoft application services platforms, as well as to empower developers to create richer and more robust applications more efficiently.


    Given that the "software is mystical, please pay me lots of money for it, you definitely shouldn't be allowed to see the actual code you pay for because that's precious" model is what keeps him in a job, I can see why he's defending it. If companies are only willing to pay for open* solutions, Microsoft have nothing for them. He'll need to re-work all his skills to a new platform vendor, or watch his business fail.

    *: open source, not necessarily open licensing.
    --
    Does my bum look big in this?
  38. Not all software by bahwi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Not all software has to be free. But there are a few good things that will come from his open source project:

    1) Experience.
    Seriously. Who would hire a fresh-out-of-college person with no real world experience? At least when they contribute to open source they have some real world experience. If the software gets big, even better. If it is some small piddly OSS project, well, at least you tried. You have guy A who goes off, does what he has to do to pass college, and goes party. You have guy B, who now has a masters, plus 6, 8, or 10 years of real-world programming experience. Who will you hire? Seriously. Don't get a life, it won't get you work. =)

    2) Hey, geeks know geeks. You apply for a job, you are the new "project manager" and have to keep several programmers working for you. You introduce yourself to you new team, say that you do this, you know this, and you've worked on this. Right there, you can get a good scoop of respect right there and get your work off to a great start.

    3) You could get a job supporting or expanding on whatever project you've been working on. Not likely a full time job, but perhaps a few extra bucks every now and then, eh?

    I think this guy is just scared that he soon will be outsourced. I think that because he has chosen to be a programmer, only one of the many things you can do with a CS degree, that he is very afraid that OSS programmers and OSS is taking away his work. Really, programming needs to be in two degrees, "basic" which is a 2 year degree, and advanced, which can be from 4 to 6 years. Programming is a commodity, it is a service industry. The more advanced things are program design(yes, I know, everyone complains about flowcharting it, UML, etc.. when they are in school, but when you gotta write that up and send it off to India, it matters, since it may be the only thing keeping you employed).

    I think people get programming confused with an advanced profession because it is so flexible. It can be extremely advanced, from writing compilers, to JITs, etc... There is so much theory out there. But really, it is just doing the same stuff over and over again slightly differently. Yes, there are different languages. No, they are not difficult to learn new ones. Once you know the basics of programming it all falls in pretty quickly. How much you actually use of what new stuff you learned is pretty low on the scale too.

    Whether you are writing enterprise apps(which has several methods, procedures, and theories on its own) or a quick one-off web app, it is basically the same stuff. I will say that enterprise apps require more discipline and knowledge than a quick one-off web app, but most of that can be learned in a month or two easily. Yes, univ's stretch it out by you only going to class two or three times a week for several months, and learning many other things while you are there. But if you focus, you can learn it all pretty quick.

  39. Making good money with F/OSS by SgtChaireBourne · · Score: 5, Informative
    In response to the AC M$ apologist / troll, here are handful of OSS companies. Most offer dual licensing. All make money doing consulting, support and development. You can probably find more with a quick search. Note that all of the above did and still do top notch work before, during and after the dot-bomb hysteria.

    So if you want to know how to make money, look at the experts.

    --
    Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
    1. Re:Making good money with F/OSS by nicke999 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      [Apple, IBM, Novell, or RedHat] are bankrolling OSS/free software from their existing mountains of cash with the hopes that by offering it at a loss they can put some hurt on the Microsoft juggernaut

      Nope. Those companies have OSS for purely commercial reasons. This is a case of complementary economics. When two products are complements of eachother you want your complement product to be cheap so that a consumer can spend more money on your product (example: gas - cars). For IBM, a complementary product is the OS. If the OS is free their customers can spend more money buying servers. As easy as that.

      --
      Thanks for browsing at -1
      Please vistit my blog: www.framtiden.nu
    2. Re:Making good money with F/OSS by yotaku · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What about Microsoft. They release a whole slew of free software. For instance there is a version of Windows Media player for Windows, Mac OS, and even Solaris. ... I'd say that all these other companies release their free software for the same reasons that Microsoft releases its free software. To make money in some way.