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50 First Deaths - On Designing MMO Respawning
Thanks to the New York Times for its article (free reg. req.) discussing the nature of death and regeneration in massively multiplayer gaming. The author points out: "Designing death is not a simple matter", explaining: "If the 'death penalty' in the game is too severe... you may stop playing the game and, even worse, stop paying the monthly subscription fee for it. But if the penalty is too light... what's to stop you from engaging in reckless behavior... and then growing bored and dropping out anyway?" It also reveals, courtesy Turbine Entertainment's CEO, that "The online role-playing game Middle-Earth Online, expected later this year, will exclude death entirely" - instead, characters "will collapse into unconsciousness and wake up in a safe place."
I don't like the idea of not dying. I think it would be a lot more interesting for all involved if death were permanent in these games.
In that case, the new guy wouldn't be at such a disadvantage to everyone who's been playing for years. The advantage to playing for a long time would be to build skill at the game, instead of acquiring items.
If moderation could change anything, it would be illegal.
Am I the only one who is having hard time seeing what's the difference between this and just losing your head and spawning up at a safer place?
It's just a matter of few words on the status line(you die/you collapse), seriously, whats the difference? hyping up you to get into it?
playing a troll would really suck though, especially after getting stoned...
though maybe those wussies should just play more nethack instead. that would teach them that a mere @ sign gets much more meaningful if you can't get it back when you die.
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
The fact that everyone is essentially immortal has always bugged me about online games too. Yes it would be a bummer to lose all of your hard earned skills and baubles, but the absence of perma-death sure ruins the already tired stories these games have. If everyone in Dereth/Velious/Rubi-Ka/etceteraland can come back from the dead, the concern about being overrun by the bad guys seems, well, less than concerning.
And by the way, Middle Earth Online developers:
What is the difference (in MMOG terms) between "death" and "collaps(ing) into unconsciousness and wak(ing) up in a safe place"?
Look ma, no tpyos^H^H^H^H^H^H . . . oh crap.
Sorry for the pun. When I played Ultima Online back in 97-00 when you died some of your stats and skills you worked hard to improved were reduced. Get killed too often in a short period of times and you pretty much went back to a 'newbie' in terms of skills and stats.
Of more concern was that fact that the items you carried did not 'respawn' with you. They were frequently looted and you had to buy/acquire new equipment.
This was several years ago however, so the rules may have changed.
And instead of using swords in this game, why will use "Long sharp pieces of steel"
.. i "wake up" in a cloning facility nightly in SWG...
Also, they don't like the idea of guns. So they're going to use "lead that flies at opponent extremely quickly"
In Star Wars Galaxies when you die, you get cloned back into a cloning center somewhere in a city. If you store your clone data you can choose which city to clone to. If you do not store your clone data you end up in the nearest cloning center but you wake up with massive wounds, which you heal by sitting in a medical center and hanging out in a cantina (must do both). That can easily be a 15-30 minute penalty.
When SWG originally launched, you had to do the classic "naked run" out to your body to retrieve your items. Or you could give consent to someone to get them for you. There were bugs with bodies disappearing, so SWG was changed to eliminate the need to run out. When you were cloned, you had all your items.
The latest incarnation of SWG has you keeping your items when you clone, but they decay. Die enough and your items become useless. You can avoid the decay by buying insurance on your items beforehand.
During the period of no penalty to death, player-player combat was rampant. It really changed the experience. Kind of fun to do some dueling, but the cities became all dueling, all the time. The day item decay was introduced dueling virtually disappeared. The gaming experience is much more in line with the Star Wars experience now.
Designers need to get out of their heads that death in a MMORPG or MUD is merely an inconvenience. Like anything else in the game world, it should have a function. In ME online, that function is merely to take the 'dead' character away from the action for a while.
In EQ, death is a pain in the butt not only because it takes you out of the action and sucks your XP, it creates a whole new aspect to the game-- the corpse retrieval. In hardcore MUDs that have this (with NO rezzes), this creates panic as ALL the loot you have could be down in lvl 50 of the mines or wherever. Yeah it can suck but its a great way to have drama.
Same with perma-death. I like the idea of 10 lives, and once you lose the last one you have to 're-roll' to a less powerful char of say 1/2 your xp. The game changes from death 1 to 10 as you go from relatively brave to a coward.
I could also say the same about pvp looting. Nothing like getting ambushed and looted in a dungeon and then grabbing your buds and hunting down the poor SOB mercilessly as they try to exit the place.
Most new games that you pay $15 bucks a month for feel that such a penalty outweighs the 'investment' us suckers make. But I do think that the games are much, much less interesting as a result.
Ironically, the game without combat has permanent death. The only way to get yourself killed right now is through addiction to drug called "Speed of the Serpent."
:)
Here's how it works: When you're not playing the game, you accumulate "offline travel time" which allows you to instantly warp places. It's as if your character had been running the whole time you were offline. This offline time is very precious, and short of logging off, the only way to get more is to ingest Speed of the Serpent.
A single dose is the equivalent of being offline for 24 hours. The only catch is that you must then drink a shot of cabbage juice at least once every 30 RL days. If you ever fail to do this (including forgetting to log in), you die. Game over, we won't bill your credit card any more
You can drink a 2nd shot of Speed of the Serpent a day later for an additional 24 hours of travel time, but then you'll have to drink cabbage juice every 29 days.
So far there have been 8 deaths.
There were bugs with bodies disappearing
Is that like the Brendelfly guy from "The Fly" remake with a transporter device?
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
I think MMORPG's should adopt the standard MUD design where you die with minimal stat impact (maybe some XP loss) but come back naked. Having to run back into a nasty area to retreive stuff from your corpse was the single biggest reason why everyone played carefully and tried not to die. Contrast this with the PS2 Everquest game. No one cares the least little bit about dying. The XP debt is too small to be significant and after you can coach everywhere the walking time back to the area isn't significant either. You could solve the PvP situation using the standard MUD method as well. You have to be in a guild that is marked as PvP before you can kill other players or be killed by them. This way the people who want PvP can have it and the other people who want to play in peace can do so. Why don't MMORPG's do this?
The consensus (of the higher modded posts so far) seems that death penalties in games should be considerably higher. Maybe some games will exist for these 'hardcore' people.
I am not one of them. I want to have fun in a game. I don't want it to be more then an inconvenience.
In Dark Age of Camelot, it was best IMHO. You died in PvE, you lost some experience (but could never de-level), and had to pay to have some constitution points restored. This cost went up as you went up in level. Also, if you went back to your death site you could 'pray' at your grave to get back half of your lost experience.
I don't want to lose items I worked hard for. I don't want to de-level. I don't want to go on a run for my corpse. I CERTAINLY do not want to die and have the servers to an rm on my character.
These games should be about fun, plain and simple. An inconvenience is needed, perhaps, but nothing more. There is a very small percentage of gamers that want perma death. For those that do, spend some time playing on a full on PvP server like Darktide in AC, or Mordred in DAoC. Most of those then would change their minds.
Regarding griefers, I never experienced that problem on the permadeath mud. Players that caused problems didn't last very long and often moved on to other muds. Additionally, since there weren't levels (Armageddon is a skill based MUD), griefers couldn't recognize and target lesser skilled players without a bit of work.
I want a MMORPG with exciting gameplay - something a permadeath system would definitely provide. Simply being 'high level' doesn't make the gameplay any more exciting - on most MMORPGs level is simply a measure of time.
I don't think this issue will ever be fully resolved. Many mmorpgers can be split into two categories: puzzle-solvers and competitors. Obviously, some have aspects of both and others are more interested in other areas, but the two categories are reasonable as a rule.
Now, your problem is that the puzzle-solvers can't tolerate being forced to redo something they've already solved. They want to hold-onto their accomplishments.
The competitors, otoh, aren't worried about that and can deal with resets, lost items, etc. It's all part of the game.
-Jeff
P.S. One last thought: can you imagine baseball where the score of your games with a team added up all season? So Chicago beats Cleveland 5-4 and wins. Next game Cleveland has to overcome a one-run deficit to win. It doesn't make sense, and that's how some players (competitors) view these games.
Please learn the difference between a dissenting opinion and a troll before you moderate.
You will blink for about 10-15 times during which you will be immortal...
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men... --Willy Wonka
I play on a MUD called arctic and the system is really pretty simple yet effective. First off, the maximum amount of any sort of equipment is limited so there are not endless drops as in something such as everquest. Second, the guards are quite powerful in cities and there is a wanted board system. Should you continually attack someone who is a great deal lower than yourself you will get on the wanted board and be hunted by NPC Guards. Finally, when you die your corpse is left where you died and you lose a % of experience of your total level (It ranges from 25-50%, it's random). Essentially death sucks, losing your gear sucks but there is a vague sense of realism and "griefing" isn't an issue.
How about auto-creating "unknown" zones, where one is dropped should one die, or for that matter, when one is punished for whatever reason. It doesn't stop the game... But whoever is affected loses the opportunities of wherever they were... And might face some kind of risk/danger on landing? Or perhaps a sphinx with some questions to answer or else you die?
Instead of waking up in a Safe Place why not have you wake up inprisoned by things you were fighting. Then you have to fight your way out of there.
This could even force people to group in order to get out of the prison.
Equipment you ask? Make it so you have to find some weapons to get out of the prison but once you exit it you get all your old stuff back.
Of course MMORPG's are going to suck until someone comes up with a true dynamic world, creatures, weather, cities, all of it. No more "lets go to orc camp 5 to hunt" now you have to find the orc camp. Wouldn't it be nice to stay away from one area for a long time and then come back and the city that was there is no longer there, just some ruins.
...are two separate (though related) problems.
If you take away PD, you still have the griefer problem. If you solve the griefer-harrassing-newbie problem, difficulties still remain with PD. Doing one to "solve" the other is Just Plain Bad Game Design.
The best discussion of this issue is still "Designing Virtual Worlds" in which Richard Bartle discusses all the issue quite thoroughly. He does not come up with a definitive answer, although he does suggest the MMORPG industry's consensus against PD is premature. I was surprised at how well the NYT article presented both sides for the casual reader.
Eternal vigilance only works if you look in every direction.
Eons ago when I had a compuserve account and the world was text over a 300baud modem I would dial in to play a networked hack-like game that I wanna say was called Island of Kesmai. There were actually a bunch of similar games over the years and I'm not sure if that is the one I'm thinking of.
Anyway, you start out in this village and wander around looking at the different text characters roam about with you. This dog, represented by a . or something like that, starts bugging me. I'm bored, unable to figure out what the point of the game is, so I shoot the dog. Suddenly the sheriff kills me dead with a single arrow.
But wait...the game doesn't stop. I stare in fascination as a symbol comes over to my body. "Holy cow," I think, "They're going to rob my corpse." Then my symbol starts moving across the screen with this other one.
The two symbols walk across town into what I'm told is a church, and presto, I'm alive again, the other player having paid to get me resurrected.
"Yeah," he says, "Don't shoot the dog. The sheriff hates that."
www.HearMySoulSpeak.com
If the 'death penalty' in the game is too severe... you may stop playing the game and, even worse, stop paying the monthly subscription fee for it.
Well, I certainly hope you stop paying the fee for it when you stop playing it.
Rob
Anyone should be able to PvP anytime, anywhere. The penalty for dying should be perma-death + loss of whatever items you have but you come back as your characters son/daughter who has rights to anything they had in the bank/storage.
A person should not be able to look at someones profile and see what level they are. This will actually make PvP a risk. Why? Say you have 2 level 15 griefers. Lets also say that New players spawn with a basic outfit and backpack. Sure they could just go around attacking people with the basic outfit, but if there are no safe zones they wouldn't have a good place to camp. On top of that, what is to stop a level 50 wizard from throwing on some newb garb and ganking the griefers?
If a gaming company wants to take advantage of an untapped market, they should make a PvP with no rules. I'm looking foward to darkfall which will allow a bit more freedom.
MMO's strike me now as games that have little risk for dying, and it takes forever to get any rewards (ie they are timesinks) not to much fun to me, seems more like a chat room than a game. Obviously, there is a market for these games, but there is also a market for people who want freedom, and all the risk that comes with it.
dont play the MMORPG's..go back to MUD's. problem solved.
I've thought about this as well, but I think there's a good solution that nobody has really considered.
You can have your new character inherit the recently deceased character's worldly possessions upon death. Like a son inheriting the family fortune or somesuch. You can also have the new character inherit some skills or stats for free depening on the age of the character that died. Sort of like he was raising his replacement like a child.
You could also have life insurance so killing yourself isn't such a bad thing. Insurance rates go up for high risk players and maximum payout is dependent on net worth, character advancement, and premiums.
Maybe you 'lose' the junk you had on you, but heck they allow you to be looted in UO and Lineage (to an extent) so that's not taboo. You could, like in Star Wars Galaxies, also insure your gear when you died.
That way when you die, although you lose your character you don't lose your fortunes. You may in fact gain fortunes.
I would advocate such a system even further. Include character AGING with stat effects and ultimately a natural death (maybe you can do things in game to prolong life like 'eat' healthy or do certain activities). That way even the most powerful characters will die eventually and have to mix with the newbies to rise again.
Just a note of personal preference, level based systems are an atrocity. They only detract the player's attention from actually doing something meaningful so they can do monotonous things over and over again to raise meaningless numbers with a false concept of 'progress.' It is a copout for actually providing content by keeping the player busy wet-dreaming about the next higher and higher level.
Also, there were a bunch of preparatory spells to bind the spirit to the corpse, to heal spiritual damage, etc, that lower level clerics could attend to before they could raise. Empaths were also needed to heal the body otherwise it would die right away again when it was raised.
People tended to help out corpses they found in the wilderness and drag them to the clerics guild. Also, people took death a lot more seriously because it was way more involved then "highlight target, hit rez spell". Not to mention the clerics could often times be picky about who they rezzed. Oh, the alternative to beingn raised was to walk the starry pathway......or in other words, roll up a new character.
PKing was almost NEVER a problem. In fact of all my years playing that game, I have never been PKed.
I realize that things need to change sometimes for a graphical MMO game, but the concept of making it a little bit time consuming, and making it a little risky for the person doing the raising, and making it a little more complex to enable more people to get involved for better results could do a lot if translated into your MMORPG of choice.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
I think a better idea for death in a MMPORPG should be quite different:
Instead of creating, for example, a single character.. you create a Family, with a surname. The point would be to increase your Family's fame. Each character you create has the same surname, and owns a holding. Perhaps you begin with a hovel, and can make your way up to a wizard's tower or a keep. People will say, "Oh, that's owned by the Higraf family," not "Oh, that's owned by rEdK1ller."
Certain things, like wealth would be transferrable to other characters on the account, through the holding. This is all to prevent people from leaving the game entirely when their character dies, because death should be permanent. A character should take no more than a week of -casual- playing to become 'awesome' in the sense of 'average.' There should be a bell-curve in terms of character power and the number of characters, whereas now there is an ever rising curve, with the most players being at a very high level. Because of permanent death, it is possible to have less characters at a high power level than at an average power level.
One option, if a player does not want their character to die, is to 'immortalize' said character: they turn into an npc, and either inhabit the player's home, or wander off. If they're at a high enough power level when they retire, they could put a unique power item into the queue to be used with a quest: "Senchal's Wand of Might," where Senchal was an actual player that people interacted with.
In this way you accomplish the following things:
-A bell curve of player power levels, which leads to a more interesting game environment.
-It means something when someone dies.
-People are less apt to quit when their character dies, because although they have lost the time gaining skills and abilities with said character, they have gained capital and worth for their family.
Another interesting thing would be, when your character dies, you have the option of bringing them to life as part of an Undead horde, waging war on the realm of the living. Your character is enhanced, and cannot gain abilities, and when they die again they die for good, but you can go out with a bang.