Slashdot Mirror
Building a Large Linux Knowledgebase
linuxfan writes "It looks like LinuxQuestions.org is aiming to build the largest independent Linux-related knowledgebase using a Wiki. They are using the same software as Wikipedia (MediaWiki), are using a Creative Commons license and look to be off to a good start."
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A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
It's called Google.
What about The Linux Documentation Project? Provides plenty of knowledge to me about pretty much anything Linux related...
Hate me!
This is a great idea for those of us who find certain aspects of Linux a bit daunting. Between outdated HOWTOs and sometimes cryptic MAN pages, newbies such as myself can get a bit frustrated.
My hope is that this database doesn't grow out of control with redundant and/or meaningless data.
"You're getting brutal, Sark. Brutal and needlessly sadistic."
"Thank you, Master Control"
-Sark and the MCP
What if google dosent deliver?
If there is no answer on Google (groups that is), then there is no question.
The one thing keeping me from switching to Linux has a topic, but no one has posted any information there.
Does linux gaming work, or do you just have to play Neverwinter Nights over and over? (reply some good stuff here, and stick it in the wiki, too).
"If you think you have things under control, you're not going fast enough." --Mario Andretti
...since README.org was already taken.
---- Just another spud server.
This sounds like a good idea. However, there are two issues that would hinder something like this:
1. Variability between Linuxes. There are many distros out there and they all have their own ways of doing the same things.
2. Variability within Linuxes. Different distros also change their commands between versions. Any knowledge-base specific enough to be of help would have to be extremely thorough. A person working with a 2.4.22-gentoo-r3 kernel, for example, might have a different kernel than someone with the vanilla 2.4.22.
However, if enough knowledgeable people use the system, then it will hopefully conquer these problems and be useful. But for now, see the gentoo forums for what open source documentation done by a community is capable of. (However, this is only within one distro that is relatively new so it has an easier time of things.)
2.
A NYC lawyer blogs. http://www.chuangblog.com/
Without wishing to sound too sarcastic, you are going to need a tad more than 19 articles to convince me you have a valid knowledge repository. I'll stick with the Linux Documentation Project for the moment thanks
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Wikipedia is a projekt driven by an community, LinuxQuestions.org is somewhat unclear to characterise: not clearly a community only or a business company selling ads within their content.
As on always you should read the Rules before posting. registration is required, but email is optional.
Wiki's seem to bring together the reasons why the web is seen as useful (disregarding the free pr0n). Easy content creation, accessibility and ease of use. With wiki's you get the added benefit of a central repository to look for the information you need.
As wiki's grow and become known the need for search engines might lessen. The first resort for information will change from google to the relevan wiki. Google will be seen as second in importance. After all, wiki has the structure of yahoo with the benefits of quality content.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Crap I meant http://www.google.com/linux.
Keep your eyes to the sky.
Yes, but that's what they* want you to know and when they* want you to know it.
*'They' being those who buy words on Google.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
ls /usr/share/man/*
I wish your comment was on a Wiki, because then I could edit it to remove all those apostrophes.
This sort of theme is becoming increasingly prevalent these days. Take a look at ESR's recent article on trying to get CUPS to work. The bottom line is, rather than wasting energy writing more HOWTO's to get some impossibly-difficult-to-install software working, how about spending the time making the software easier to install?? Hmmmm? Or is Linux doomed to be used only by elitists?
This seems like a great idea, untill some smartass decides to mask harmful commands as solutions to obscure problems. /bin so that when you list all the files it does an asciiart of the goatse guy, or just throws in a "sudo rm -rf /" or something.
Since it looks like anyone can update this thing, what happens when someone sneaks into a solution a command to write morse-code on the hard drive, or some command to rename all the files in
Not that I don't think this is a good idea, but without some sort of review process I would personally feel nervous about sending some of my more inexperienced friends to the site and having them execute commands all willy nilly.
I know that 99% of the users who would post something would do it out of an honest desire to help, in fact I will probably post a few things that I have had to do as obscure solutions to weird problems myself, but it only takes a single post to a problem that is just commen enough but not too comment to get a lot of people to fsck up their machines.
Famous Last Words: "hmm...wikipedia says it's edible"
If you want some tips on making some good documentation, look at the freebsd handbook, that is simply excellent. you can usually find what you are looking for in there. i know i can.
whilst in linux what i find is documentation is all around the place, man pages, howto's etc, which are helpful, but sometimes not very convenient
Marge, get me your address book, 4 beers, and my conversation hat.
I tend to avoid it, it's got lots of reference stuff but is pretty short on examples, which probably explains all the good user supported sites/knowledgebases around the web.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I'm a contributing member of the linuxquestions site, and I personally thing Jeremy (the owner/admin) is doing a wonderful job of keeping the site up to date and adding new things. Most recently they showed their support at linuxworld with other companies and .orgs. THe addition of the wiki will further increase what they're trying to get across. I've found threads on there that I havn't found anywhere else on google or mailing lists, and most everyhting I've needed has a solution. Responses are fast, and the people are very nice, I'd reccomend it to anyone with questions.
Now keep in mind they don't just do linux, theres Solaris forums, Programming forums, AIX, distro forums, and many many more such as hardware forums, networking and a very nice HCL. I guess this is turning into an ad but I'm just trying to help out cause a little bit I guess. You'll find me there as the user Astro
Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day.
I dunno if the "wiki" part is anything newer than what I saw a month ago, but after jumping through several account creation / e-mail verification / etc hoops to try to post a detailed, working answer to someone else's problem (the problem and distro which happened to be the same as mine -- and for which no "good" answer had yet been provided), I kept getting denied any ability to actually post a reply to the thread. Tried for several days and gave up. I'm hoping it was a fluke... I know I need answers all the time for things, but the one time I CAN HELP and try to do so, DENIED. Blah.
Damn the trailing slash ruined it - the url is http://google.com/linux...
Any technology distinguishable from magic, is insufficiently advanced.
But wait, hold on! Did someone write trollish nonsense all over a beatiful how-to? Just roll back the changes.
If this scares you (and it should, it's very powerful, very new), check out wikipedia.com. It's totally self-policing and very well-kempt. You will quickly move from scared to excited.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
I went there once, took me 2 days to get out!!
amazing site...
I would like to see documentation that's prolem oriented. It would start with "How do I ...?". It would list the most basic, high level steps. Then, each of those steps is a link to its own "how do I...?". You could then drill down each step that's a problem to you, and find out how to do the step. That way you don't get stuck. Sure, it would take a long time to build, but then you have pretty complete, robust documentation.
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
I have been using Wikipedia for a while and one of the biggest selling point IMO is the great browsing experience. I often find myself actually surfing again by going from hyperlink to hyperlink, trying to soak up all the information, something I have stopped doing a while ago with most other webpages. There is lot of very good, indepth content on there.
TLDP is a bunch of mostly technical articles (HOWTO's, guides, FAQs and man pages) that are very usefull, but don't really form a coherent whole. It would be wonderfull to have a somewhat more encyclopedia oriented linux documentation to consult, that is updated consistently to boot. A encyclopedia aproach also alows you to cover a wide spectrum of topic, from, say, obscure technical details to general *nix design philosophies.
However, wiki's for this type of large projects (like wikipedia) need a certain critical mass of contributors for it to, I would think. While I don't know if this project will be "it", I think a wiki aproach would be a great idea.
Do you know all the little tricks there is to know about Windows then? Like where you can override a DNS name with an IP for instance? That ones is quite easy but I bet that there are a load of untapped features in Windows. I mean it took me a while before I learned of the windows-e shortcut for explorer.
It's not only for when you want to solve a problem but for when you want to know what you can do. And that's usually a lot harder to find out by Googling.
Seriously. I visited the local LUG and was appalled at the attitude some of the older members had whenever a relative newbie or younger kid asked them a question. The boilerplate answer from the "gurus"?
"Just read the man pages".
I tried to hit them up for a simple answer to the nodev, user and suid options in fstab and all I got was "Read the man pages".
I wasn't looking to the answers to everything, only the differences between "user" and "nodev" options and when it is best to use them.
It is easier to build strong children than to repair broken men. -Frederick Douglass
Elite Google
"The world only exists in your eyes. You can make it as big or as small as you want." - F Scott Fitzgerald
For things like that, I can certainly understand having to turn to some sort of knowledge base.
I'm referring more to common things like getting basic peripherals working, or a graphics card, or setting up XFree86 to use your monitor correctly, or getting a mousewheel to work. All things that automatically work in certain other operating systems.
"Sufferin' succotash."
Does it strike anyone as a bit of a negative attribute that you have to have a massive knowledgebase to use your operating system?
The answer is that you don't, the wiki is more aimed at people who just want to find something out about Linux (ie 'How do they read e-mail without Outlook?'), are looking for a good distribution to try, or are curious and want to learn more about it (hence the technical parts)
However, I've always had to rely on poorly-written HOWTOs and other documents to spend three hours just getting a sound card or USB mouse to work under X.
Sounds like your distro isn't that recent (or that you're useing Slack or Debian, in which case the Howtos are to be expected). Modern Distros generally take care of your mouse and sound card in a few seconds while you watch the progress bar
Not to diss you, but Linux just isn't that hard anymore.
Ask 8 slackers a question, get 10 awnsers (a citation, but I can't remember from who)
Here is a link on MediaWiki and one on a list of sites using MediaWiki.
MediaWiki is GPL-ed, and more programmers are always welcomed.
Mind explaining why my post is "Flamebait?"
I simply made a point; an opinion of my own. If you disagree with it, reply or disregard, but don't mod it down. What makes Linux so great that it's above criticism?
"Sufferin' succotash."
How can you make sure some numbnut doesn't get rid of useful stuff?
One of the most frustrating things about Linux distributions is conflicting documentation and obselete and current documentation mixed into the same directories. I'll look at some documentation for packet filtering, for example, and be left totally bewildered as to which methods and software are actually current and intended for use and which ones are considered outmoded (and, afterwards, I run off and just use OpenBSD).
It would be a great help if some of the distribution maintainers contributed to the wiki. They can say things like, "Debian 3.0 uses software X for doing Y, while Debian 4.0 uses Z, a replacement for X." Some one else can say, "Well, Fedora chose to use W for doing Y, so you have to do this this and this differently."
Eliminating ambiguity can be, perhaps, the benefit of a "real-time" wiki.
Vote in November. You won't regret it.
Quoth my freshman year C Programming professor who said "void main() makes baby Jesus cry." I almost fell out of my chair with glee.
Who did what now?
You don't need a massive knowledge base to use Linux. The main difference is that documentation for Linux usually covers a lot more than just the kernel. It usually covers a ton of popular programs in addition to the kernel, including two entirely different desktops. Not to mention the fact that you can change so many more parameters in Linux than you can in Windows or MacOSX. For example, it is fairly simple to install another kernel if you want to on most Linux distributions but you also have the ability to compile your own kernel. This will take more documentation than either Windows or OSX but it hasn't made anything more difficult.
Time makes more converts than reason
Since "everyone" is using Windows, it's easy to get help in real life. Also, Swedish highschools force their students to learn the basics of Windows in an obligatory course. It's really supposed to be a general course about computers, but in reality it's all about Windows. Once a not-so-advanced Windows user wants to do something "odd", the lack of a well-known Windows tutorial is apparent. For example, very many (newbie mudders) do not know how to turn on the echo function in Windows telnet. There's lots of tutorials online on how to do this, but few seem to know where to look.
As far as getting hardware to work, I can't comment since I'm still stuck in the slackware way of doing things (i.e. recompile your kernel, install necessary software to support device, etc.).
However, quite a few of the HOWTO's cover things such as setting up an X-Terminal network, remote booting, setting up your own DNS server, and things of that nature. For those things, a HOWTO is great - I learned bind by reading the HOWTO enough to get it up and running, then reading through the bind docs and RFC's to expand my knowledge. If not for the HOWTO, I probably would have had to buy a book for it.
Sure, there's some HOWTO's out there for what people might think of as "simple" things - the equivalent of that little book you used to get with windows (do they still send that?) - reading your email and whatnot - but a linux user really only needs evolution/kmail/whatever. The HOWTO is for people who set up multiuser servers and want their users on elm, pine, mh, etc., or want to set up majordomo or a custom sendmail setup, etc.
Those who can't do, teach. Those who can't teach either, do tech support.
Hmm. The Germany government has been supporting OpenFacts for some time. I guess I've tried to get people interested in that site, but it hasn't gotten very far (in the English version, at least -- the Germans seem to be doing well in the Deutsch version)
The good news for the new project is that all OpenFacts material is public domain, so it's fair to cut-n-paste off that site (well, if there's anything very useful).
Um, and how is this site run by LinuxQuestions independent, exactly? I guess I don't quite understand how that can be the case. Whatever, I guess.
I don't know how LQ's wiki will end up, but if the answers from questions posted to the forums make their way into Wiki entries and are regularly maintained, then it has potential.
Almost two years ago, a resourceful hacker at our Waikato Linux Users Group set up a Wiki, and it has been a phenomenal success. We'll be surprised how often we google looking for something, and find the Wiki as the first hit!
What did we do differently? For starters, Perry imported the man pages and howtos, meaning people could link to a man page in the Wiki just by naming it (ie fstab(5)). This encourages both reading man pages and editing them, marking them up to be more useful to everyone. Another point is that now you can see which pages (and other man pages) refer to a given page, an invaluable tool that man itself can't provide!
We're thinking of dropping the HOWTOS because it's amost impossible to get changes sent up stream, and our own locally developed content tends to be better and more up to date.
Good luck to the LQ people, but there exist a number of Wikis that have the knowledge growing nicely outside of this. If you're looking for something, come check us out.
IMHO (as a Wikipedia admin) what keeps that place running smoothly is a group of roughly 200 dedicated contributors, most of whom are admins.
To make laws that man cannot, and will not obey, serves to bring all law into contempt.
--E.C. Stanton
One of the better resources for linux and open-source information is the WLUG wiki at http://wlug.org.nz
455fe10422ca29c4933f95052b792ab2
I've often thought about installing/hacking together something like slash and posting each of the howtos as "articles" or maybe each section of each howto as a sub-article. Then the howto could be discussed and kept live and up to date. After some period of time take the highest moderated posts and rewrite the howto and start over.
Slashdot's moderation system seems to mostly work and that would be the key to success for something like this. I could never think of a good name for it and wasn't good enough to pull it off so I never got around to it. Now I could probably pull it off but don't have the time and still don't have a good name.
G
Ignorance is bliss, maybe? Because you can find out just about anything Microsoft related via Technet. This includes troubleshooting, white papers, documents on best practices, general network design, security, etc.
If you actaully work with MS products, and dont use technet, you are definitely not working smart.
It would be NICE to say you dont need a large database, but it would be pretty ignorant to think that anything could be that way. Auto mechanics, lawyers, doctors, EVERYONE who works on complex matters is going to need a well organized resource to help them out. There is far too many details for someone to think they will know it all.
The only people who seem like they never encounter problems are those who are just good at troubleshooting and using their reference sources.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
I have a better idea about wiki: use it instead of CVS or on a top of CVS making possible for everyone to submit changes or to roll back the bad code. Mo more waiting when the maintainer has time to check it in - just do it yourself. If it works for open-sourced documents, why can't it work for open-sourced software?
Less is more !
You did miss your's too. Only C++ compilers would requier you to prototype (or c compilers using the right -w compiler switch). Were you thinking about, heavens, Visual C++? ;-)
"...normal evolution would have gone Word to Frame to troff, but instead, the computer industry has gone the other way!"