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Building Social Skills in Gifted Youths?
UNOStudent asks: "I'm currently a Biotech undergrad at the University of Nebraska-Omaha and have spent the past several semesters mentoring gifted youngsters and have been presented with a challenge this semester. My student is unbelievably smart, however has very limited social skills, is unable to cooperate with peers, doesn't understand why they make fun of his uncombed hair, etc. Since many of us may have grown up in a similar circumstance, I'm looking for suggestions from my fellow geeks on ideas for how to challenge him mentally, while building essential social skills." How would you build social skills in someone more concerned with math, science and computers?
Divide up the project so that he only has a piece of the puzzle and will fail unless he is able to interact with the other team members to get it to work. Also play lots of games where social interaction is involved to solve the problem, human knots, simple ball games, you know those group building games we all hate.
Visit BobtheKing.com it's perhaps the best thing I've ever made to waste your time with.
I mean it. Tell him he might have to wind up running human emotions under emulation if necessary.
Not knowing what the hell is wrong with him will stress him a lot more than having something, anything, he can deal with.
Good luck with this.
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
Martial Arts build self-confidence, discipline and involve teaching as well as learning (since the more advanced students will help the less advanced). This is probably a pretty good list of the things these kids need, especially if physical activity and the like aren't really their forte -- challenges are good.
I'm taking Tae Kwon Do as a 26 year-old, and I just wish I'd gotten into it sooner. I've only been at it a short time, and I already sound like one of the cheesy recruiting flyers.
As to your other point, you really shouldn't minimize the importance of a good set of social skills. Especially in our more complex world, interaction with others is a huge part of getting anything done. Being able to ask for (and accept) things, network, build relationships and function in social situations are damn nifty skills to have.
Anyhow, I think martial arts would be a good way to teach smart kids to be *smart*, rather than just bastions of niche knowledge.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
Being a genius is one thing and it can get you ahead in life, but it's nothing if you can't deal with people (look at Jobs and the Woz, for example).
Even in modern programming, no one man can tackle enormous projects - we break things into functions and into parts and put them together.
Being ethnically different, "smart" (so said my K-12 schools, but college makes me doubt it), and by nature and culture alternately shy and arrogant, I've had to work to A) get to know people and B) work with them instead of going off on my own.
I say you give him group assignments where he has to work with other people (programming seperate functions in a larger program). Also, for kids, the great equalizer is video games - I've been playing Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles for a while and that game really emphasizes team work and people talking together.
"There is no time, sir, at which ties do not matter," Jeeves, (Jeeves and the Impending Doom)
...because ultimately it's up to him to do the learning. Unless he's asking you for help (which I doubt; this isn't an episode of "Saved by the bell") he's going to have to figure it out for himself, which includes him figuring out that there's something to figure out in the first place.
:)
Ultimately, the motivator for him to learn social skills will be other kids interacting with him in a positive way, and you can't force that. What you CAN do, however, is get him in social situations where his brains will be considered an asset.
For instance, set up class lab activities that require teams of four, and make sure these activities require serious brains to complete. Sometimes, he should be in charge of picking people for his team; sometimes he shouldn't. Does this mean he might get chosen last? Sure, until a lazy and popular kid decides it's better to have this smart kid doing his work for him. Once your smart kid is selected by the popular kid, and they get an 'A' AND get done early because of it, he'll be considered an asset.
The flipside to that, of course, is that the other kids will initially be using him. The thing is, learing that you're being used and learning how to deal with it is as important a social skill as any other, so while it's painful in the short term it's beneficial in the long term.
Also, you'll be giving popular and lazy kids a reason to view him in a more positive light, which is a good lesson for them.
The best way to build social skills is to get them involved in a group of people who actually -care- for them as a friend. The rest is easy.
(sad story, warning)
When I was a kid, I was the fat, alkward kid who nobody liked. I was never able to get over my alkwardness until I found a friend, Melissa (Mel) who accepted me as I was.
Most of the time, these "socially enept" people are only socially enept because society has turned them away.
If you want these people to be socially acceptable, try accepting them first.
Not that I'm cool or anything now, but I do have friends, people who I care about and care about me. Popularity isn't everything. Friendship is. Thank God for friends.
Jay | http://oldos.org
The parent post should be modded up Insightful and not funny. One of the major reasons, IMHO, geeks and nerds do not develop social skills is because they see no need. Most kids are concerned with their classmates opinions, and being liked. Those that do not care about being liked and just want to do what they want to do -- i.e. learn math -- develop in other ways their peers do not.
Another reason I believe that gifted children do not develop social skills is they lack peers. Think about talking to a child when you're an adult. You don't talk to them on the same level because they are immature and inexperienced. It's the same sort of thing for gifted children, they see themselves as the equivalent of a 20 year old trapped in a group of 10 year olds (or whatever). Solution? Put them with people of their intelligence level in their age group and watch them grow socially. (Not an easy task if they are in the top 1% or less of the population)
Recalling from personal experience, I am by most definitions a dork and have been one since I picked up my first book in life.
As a general rule I was more inclined to read books than socialize granted that was all I knew. Everyone would want to talk about the latest fad or trend and I just simply was never interested. Whenever company was over, I'd just simply ignore all that and go to my room and read. I had few friends in my life, mostly those I could relate to. Aside from the occasional bully, I was happy socially.
However my stepmom couldn't stand that being a social giant. I was to relate to everyone and anyone. She would constantly drag me out of my room and try and get me to talk to people. I never did out of spite, mostly just clamming up or worse being nasty to anybody she tried, until I could get back to my book (and later computer games). I was not a pleasant conversationalist when forced like that. Therefore I question the value of corrective action against a socially dis-inclined person.
For what it's worth tho, I'd like to think I turned out normal. I'm the first of my brothers to get married (well in 2 weeks anyways). Generally people say I relate well to others. However you generally find me talking to people I can relate with intellectually rather than people who are more inclined to talk about the latest "survivor" episode or some other gunk (I didn't even watch the Super Bowl!). However I can BS my way through anything if needed, for exapmle a job interview or performance review, etc.
Your turn to rant!
...in bed
What I saw missing from my geeky friend's social skill set was empathy. They knew they were different and smarter than the rest, and they liked being smarter. Made them cocky, and they looked down upon the rest. The more they were teased, the more they withdrew, and the more they looked down on their tormentors. So how does empathy help? Look, these are smart kids and they can be reasoned with that they are going to have to spend a lifetime among people not as smart as they are. There is no getting around that unless you become a near hermit. So wouldn't it be smart to try to see themselves as others see them?
Yeah, who cares if you comb your hair anyway? Aren't there more important things in life, and besides people shouldn't judge me by my outer appearance! True, all true. But you know what? They do and they will. So does it make a difference whether or not your hair is combed? If no one cares, no. If people do care, yeah, it causes hassles for you that can so easily be avoided by a 30-second brush with a comb. Not hard, appeases the ignorant. Comes in handy if you ever have a job interview (and you will want one someday, won't you?).
Empathy allows you to think through the other person's eyes. Yeah, they aren't as smart as you, but they can't fully help that (biology and all that) and yet they are still humans with as much right toward dignity and respect as you would want for yourself. Apperances and actions shouldn't matter in a perfect world where intellect was all that counted, but we don't live in that world. We do have to interact with people who judge us for all the wrong reasons. Isn't it smart to spend just a minimal amount of effort to smooth our way in life? If you are perceived as a jerk by others, no matter how invalid the reason may be, it will cause friction in your life.
The smart person sees that friction coming and heads it off with a few simple social tricks that fool the ignorant. It's great as a party trick too!
Isolating children from peers and reality is not a good way to impart social skills. Communicating to them from a young age that they're special and better than other people is a negative towards producing functional adults.
Social skills are built through experience, now from memorizing a set of strategies for coping with the stupidity of other people. If part of that is learning to deal with people who don't like you (for any reason), well, that's life.
I see this sort of idiotic reasoning as crappy self-justification, sort of an "I'm better than everyone and that's why they hate me". People who adopt this sort of view are walking down a dangerous road towards more isolation (and probably the things that go with it, like depression or other psychological problems). It's the wrong way to go.
And I know of whence I speak -- I got my ass kicked on occassion in grade school. I had to deal with all the names and other bullshit. But hey, that's life. Learning to deal with advesity is what makes a person who they are.
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
When i was 6 my parents enrolled me in martial arts. It really helped me socially. I didn't have that many friends at school, but i had plenty of martial arts friends. You get a great workout and develop some discipline. If you treat it as an art and discipline and not a way to kick ass, it really has a profound effect on your life. And helps you gain confidence.
Ausbergers syndrome - learn it, know it, ask yourself if it applies here. It is similar in nature to Autism (think of RainMan but really watered down, almost to the point of it being questionable as to whether or not he is / is not affected.)
... while being totally socially inept?
Do the youthes you are talking about have amazing technical skills, wonderful (photographic) memories, the ability to empathize with the computer
Anyways, it is worth understanding.
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
Sure you can get away with being a nerd/geek for a long time, but in the end a balanced life is the most sustainable. The hard part is, it's hard to actually have a balanced life. If you don't have a significant other, then that part is missing. If you don't have friends who like to do what you like to do, then that part is missing. If you don't have a job, same thing. Of course there are other areas you probably like to have.
So if you don't have a certain one of these things, then ask yourself why. Is there something you can do about it. Do you care. If not, why. If not, make sure it's not because you think you can't have one of those things. Once you decide you want to make a change, decide how. Is there something you can stop doing or start doing that will help make it happen. Or maybe you have to go somewhere like a (gulp) night club or gym or supermarket or just for a walk. Maybe you need to hang out with a new crowd. Maybe you need a good friend to take you out on the town or out to a new group of friends.
Anyhow, it's all out there. You just need to find your reason for doing something about it.
Find a school for gifted and talented kids (some states have 'em) and get him to apply. Find a summer camp for him to go to (e.g., math camp, science camp, computer camp, chess camp) that will be populated w/kids like him. Get him in some kind of peer group.
I hope this isn't too obvious.
John.
Quite frankly, the teacher should be more concerned about the bullies; the smart kid isn't the problem, the bullies are. Why?
They usually turn out to be complete rejects as far as society goes; violent neanderthals, basically. Everyone looks the other way until BAM, they hit the real world and suddenly end up in jail for bashing their girlfriend's head against the wall(unless they happen to make it big in sports). Meanwhile, the geek suffers and may be secluded, but ultimately contributes to society in ways the ape never could have.
The solution here is to be strict with punishing the kids that pick on him. Johnny makes fun of him for not combing his hair? Johnny gets a time-out and a talk about how we're all different people, and we need to accept those who are different from us. Children start out as pretty accepting- but in the early years they can either learn it's really NOT ok to pick on other people, or they can get away with it, feel slightly good about themselves, and keep doing it. Learning to accept others makes them far more likely to succeed in school and particularly in the workplace(ie, "team players").
Please help metamoderate.
This is step 1. Honestly, I know that it's shallow to judge someone on their looks, but hey, it is something that we have *evolved* over millions of years. People who look better succeed, it is a *fact*.
If the kid is upset that people laugh at his hairstyle, then, duh, maybe he should *change* it?
I honestly don't understand why geeks will get upset when people mock their style.. you have thousands of examples of (halfway) decent style to draw on daily, and you don't have to spend a bundle to be dressed normally for your age group. Unless you are going out of your way to look different on purpose (goth, etc ) there is no need for *looking" like a loser before anyone even speaks to you.
That's actually not a bad idea (not for the reasons you've mentioned).
... and I also had friends, and a girlfriend, and invitations to parties, and, you know, a life. It wasn't something I had to work at, directly. It just kind of happened, because I had the self-confidence to live my life in a way that made me happy --
All of your reasons are valid, but being able to kick the bullies' asses is a valid one as well. The martial arts are the martial arts; they may have developed a layer of philosophy over the years, but at the root they're about fighting. And that's not a bad thing, at all.
I was a punching bag all the way through elementary school and junior high. I started studying Tae Kwon Do -- from an instructor who had been a Marine stationed in Korea, and taught the art as a survival skill rather than a sport -- the summer before my freshman year of high school. I spent my freshman and sophomore years getting in a lot of fights. By my junior year, I had a reputation as a "psycho" (apparently when the jocks were pounding the hell out of me, that was perfectly normal, but fighting back was crazy). It wasn't quite the reputation I was looking for, but it was a hell of a lot better than going to school every day in literal terror.
And by my senior year, once people realized that I wasn't a psycho, it paid off. I could still be a geek, still be really really good at math and science, still spend most of my time with my nose buried in a book
-- and I trace that confidence back, quite directly, to the day I first felt a football player's nose crunch under my heel. Because sometimes, standing and fighting and winning is the best thing you can do.
The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
Having never taken a martial art, I don't know how effective they are. However, an alternative is to start running. Running has to be one of the best physical activities, and can be done throughout your entire life.
If the school has a cross country team, (especially if it is no-cut, like mine was), then that may be the perfect way to get involved with peers in an activity. It certainly opened me up more to other people and was one of the best decisions I ever made.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it dissolve.
I have a cousin whose parents always labeled him as "too good" for sports (so of course he ended up believing that, too). So, now not only has he never played a sport, but he looks down on people who do.
Just recently, he applied to one of the better acting schools in California. When he didn't get in, he threw a hissy fit worthy of a six year old -- stomped around the house, yelled at his folks, cried, made quasi-abusive calls to the college demanding to talk with the people in admissions, etc. This wasn't one night, either; this went on for months.
Simply put, he doesn't know how to lose. Or, maybe more specifically, he doesn't know how to react in a positive way when things don't fall the way he wants them to. All his life he's been sheltered from competition and told that he's gifted and better than everyone else and all the other crapola that parents in the 80's pushed on their kids, so when something happens to challenge this point of view he falls to pieces.
So, instead of getting a spot at another school and working on a transfer, he's convinced himself that the people in admissions are threatened by his talent and that they don't deserve him. When the school year starts, he'll be working part time at a coffee shop in San Francisco instead of going after his dreams.
Anyhow, when/if I have kids, you can bet they'll play something. Soccer, baseball, football, whatever -- aside from the other benefits of physical activity, I think it's a valuable place to learn how to deal with adversity (aka, lose).
Every year during my review, I just pray the words "slashdot.org" aren't mentioned.
I would add that the martial arts are particularly valuable for teaching the lesson that no matter how good you think you are, there is inevitably someone better. The same applies to intelligence. Learning some humilty now will help make him a better student and teacher in the future.
.00001% of the Slashdot population who actually are the top martial artist and genius on the planet.
My apologies to the
Hear hear. I remember just wondering why other kids in class never joined my world domination plans and always laughed. I drew many sophisticated diagrams of vehicles, rockets etc that worked, and took great interest in Chemistry, Trignometry etc which related directly to my plans. I drew a helicopters gear system in great detail including materials used, and later saw a real heli used the exact same structures, gears and materials. Thats a whole lot of motivation to go on.
What did kids talk about in class? Laughing at teachers, cynicism, I like this car, that girls great in bed, I had cheerios this morning, I havent done my homework etc. I did come across other geeks and had great conversations with them. With some, I argued over some philosophical things for years (specifically that God doesnt exist), and others gave some good advice, and lent books they never got back.
Put gifted kids together. I understand they can be seriously egoistic, considering the time they spent with uninteresting kids. But that will only challenge them further. If you want your kid to be 'normal', your post on slashdot will earn you many, many, many enemies.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
At his age, I was seeing the same things (and in all places, Omaha, NE). Kids making fun of me, but I didn't understand why. It's not his hair, it's him. Oddly, I thought it was my hair when I was a kid, but that was only the specific element, not the abstract element which I couldn't see. The crux of the problem isn't something you can do anything about right now -- connecting to people on the most basic emotional levels. He'll have to work it out on his own later in life.
You can get him involved in activities such as chess club, etc. that are geared towards gifted children. If he doesn't have coordination, I wouldn't do Karate as it will only frustrate him. Help him build confidence in his strengths, which appears right now to be his intelligence. Chess, computer organizations, summer school programs for the gifted, etc.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Or if that's not his thing, and he isn't scared off by the new-agey fringers, yoga can work, too. Not for ass-kicking, but for getting in tune with his body, which, if he's a typical geek, is way out of whack.
One of the best insights I remember from Coupland's Microserfs was the talk about a geek's disconnection from his/her body. How it's just this thing we pay little attention to, and consequently, it does not serve us well. I'm a runner, too, but while that works on a stress-reduction level, I don't think it puts you in tune as well as a more precise discipline such as martial arts or yoga.
Beyond some frank discussion (everyone needs someone to tell them the truth about stuff), however, what more can you do? You can only do so much. In truth, a woman will change him -- for the better, if she's a good one. Let's face it, guys are extreme, and admirable for being extreme. We can live off very little and get by, and that lends itself to all kinds of single-minded dedication, and thus achievement, but women tend to bring temperance to what they touch. (again, the good ones). Just my $.02
On my 20th birthday I happened to meet my grade 3-5 teacher in a restaurant over lunch and he remarked how I had survived the social experiment that was my 'gifted class'. It wasn't until I managed to find and keep a girlfriend that I found out I was an arrogant ass-hole (why she's with me I'll never know). Since learning about social skills from my gf, I've discovered that the praise culture that develops in gifted classrooms leads to egomania among the students. Gifted students learn faster/better, but that doesn't make them special. They have other failings that average students may not have. I still have ego problems (I'll do just about anything for praise, and I have real problems internalizing criticism) but I'm better than I was. I don't know how any of what I've said answers your original question, but I guess I'm trying to say that teaching and raising 'gifted' kids is definitely not a solved problem.
I think humbleness is sorely lacking amongst people with talent. When you match humbleness with talent, you get people like Linus Torvalds. Check out this article at Wired. It was linked from the front page of Slashdot a while back but I'm too lazy to look for the link. The first sentence of the article is "Linus Torvalds wants me to believe he's too boring for this story." I kinda doubt someone like ESR would ever be the subject of an article that started out that way. Arrogance is a real problem amongst the geek culture, and I think it's arrogance that stands between many geeks and a thriving social life. I work as a co-op student at a local software company, and I'm fortunate to work with a few bright people--all graduates of computer programmes at a fairly prestigious university. The social lives of my co-workers are just about inversly proportional to their level of arrogance.
Perhaps it is the socially-skilled people who curtail their arrogance, and not the humble people who garner lots of friends--I can't determine causation from correlation--but it's obvious to me that the two attributes go hand in hand, and I think it's telling that my circle of friends has a rather narrow radius whereas my ego sometimes gets stuck on the doorframe.
Ian
What is the great need to 'change' him, so that he 'fits in better' with 'normal people'.
Let the fucking kid be himself, and allow him to be proud of who is is. Allow him to grow into whatever personality he is most comfortable with.
"Tell him he might have to wind up running human emotions under emulation if necessary.
Not knowing what the hell is wrong with him will stress him a lot more than having something, anything, he can deal with."
Maybe this is an improper or even crass question, but when exactly did it become popular for everyone to have a pet disorder? It's really quite pathetic. No one is a bit shy anymore, they have Asperger's syndrome, no one feels under the weather for a time, they have chronic fatigue syndrome, no one dreads going to work in a drab boring office tower, they suffer from sick building syndrome etc. If you want to teach him about Asperger's syndrome, do him a bigger favor and also teach him about how certain psychoanalytical trends have all the earmarks of fad diagnoses.
I submit that what you have proposed here is possibly the worst solution to a kids problem of shyness (even if it's to the point of 'painful' shyness). Telling him: you have X syndrome, you better learn to deal with it now so you can start spending the rest of your life "running human emotions under emulation" is downright depressing and gives him an excuse to throw his hands up and essentially absolve himself of any personal responsibility to remedy his situation.
Would it not be better to provide guidance on how to have REAL relationships with people, find friends of his own interest and maybe gradually introduce him to participation in fun activities with his own peer group??
- "Hear that?! The percolations are imminent! Cease your ingress!"
It doesn't work that way for some kids (or adults). They are not missing out on the particular social items you mention in the slightest - because they have no interest in them. Such people have to be taught social skills - and it's not that they need social skills to be happy from their own perspective - it's that other people will tolerate them better if they can exhibit what most of us consider normal politeness.
Asperger Syndrome kids have great difficulty recognizing the visual cues in a face for example - they don't know that they are missing out on anything at all - and they don't understand but can experience as much frustration as any other human at people that shamelessly make fun of them (well .... if they notice). Such people are very sensitive to being crowded, or loud or sudden noises, or in the case of my son, the high-pitched whine of an ultrasonic cleaner (such kids tend to have excellent hearing it seems). Think of all the little things that kind of irritate you a little - people interrupting you when concentrating, strong smells, sirens, etc. You're likely able to just tolerate them without thinking about it - people with Asp. Syn. don't have that trivial self control - they have to make a concious effort to not be overwhelmed by such "little things".
To their advantage most of them also tend to be really smart and/or have superb memory.
Anyway, these kids can't just ask themselves why they don't have certain social lives - they are unable to recognize that they don't.
If he doesn't have coordination, I wouldn't do Karate as it will only frustrate him.
Yes, if his Karate teacher sucks. Unfortunately there are many of these. As with all things one must be an intelligent and discerning shopper.
In any case, a child such as this is quite likely to do better with one of the "soft" martial arts, such as Tai Chi and Aikido, where developing coordination is the principle focus of the art. They also require a good deal of intelligent thoughtfulness to do well. A good teacher will take him from wherever he is and train him from there, not from some hypothetical starting point where he's "supposed to be." Then when he develops skill, coordination and selfconfidence he can adopt a "hard" school if he wishes.
KFG
such as the suggestion that those of us with AS are indulging in some kind of fad.
... etc. If you're one of these people, then even if AS is a correct diagnosis, it's critically important that you not label yourself as AS, because it'll just become one more label you hang on yourself as a way of giving yourself permission to fail.
When I was evaluated for AS, my psych told me that I had clear enough symptoms that an AS diagnosis was appropriate... but that ultimately it was up to me whether I had AS. If having the knowledge that my brain was wired differently helped me cope with life, helped me accomodate my shortcomings, let me live a happier and better life, then by all means: let's get the AS diagnosis taken care of.
But the flip side is that a lot of people take diagnoses and turn them into excuses why they can't do $foo, why other people need to accomodate them, why they're
AS is often a fad diagnosis. (The worst I ever saw was a father telling me about his four-year-old with AS. Come on.) But the existence of fad diagnoses does not in any way negate the existence of accurate AS diagnoses, nor the help that self-knowledge can bring.
I have AS. I'm a graduate student; I almost got married once, but it didn't take. I've worked in the industry and received my fair share of glowing recommendations and don't-let-the-door-hit-you-in-the-ass goodbyes. I have the respect of my peers and more friends than I deserve.
None of this happened either because or in spite of Asperger's Syndrome. I'm wholly responsible for all of them--the particular way my head is wired has zero responsibility for any of them.
The way my head is wired is just a fact of existence. What I choose to do with my life... that's up to me.
He bought the drinks, and dinner. It wasn't inexpensive. I offered to, but he'd not hear of it. I guess one could consider that getting kicked. I don't. I considered it making peace. After nearly 21 years, it was worth it; considering the circumstances, kicking his ass would have been redundant. I could have. What would have been the point?
There are times in one's life when you just have to let shit go. I did.
SB
It's old. The more humans I meet, the more I like my cats. At least they are honest.
Dude, nothing- and I mean NOTHING- fucked me up MORE in high school and grade school than the goddamned jocks. If you're not a jock, it doesn't matter if you're "on a team" or not- you're shafted into the shittiest position and made a target of opportunity by the opposing team, slammed into "By accident" and blamed for the failures of your own team, and generally shat on until you're ground into dust.
You want to fuck the kid up, stick him with a bunch of primates that play sports all day. See how he likes his life in a few years.
I agree with what you did. What would assaulting the man have done? There are plenty of people who did fucked up (similar) things to me in my past and I seek no revenge. The events have passed. My hurting them won't help any others; and it won't help me.
Photos.