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DVD-RW Incompatibilities?
rekkanoryo writes "It seems that there is some trouble brewing in the DVD-RW camps. According to CNET, new, faster 4x DVD-RW media may not be compatible with older DVD-RW drives. The DVD+RW camp is confident this won't be a problem for them, but the -RW backers think it will sometime in the future when even faster media starts to appear. Also mentioned is a dual-layer DVD+R capable of holding up to 8.5 GB of data per disc and the problem with really old DVD+RW drives not being upgradable to support write-once DVD+R media."
Why isn't there a standard format that can be adhered to so that a DVD RW here is a DVD RW there?
If standards existed, a company that built an incompatible extension into their technology wouldn't be able to legitimately call their device a DVD RW.
I have been pwned because my
It seems like consumer DVD writing technology is coming out a bit too fast now. The format is fracturing more than it's uniting...
Whatever happened to the standard bodies who are supposed to prevent this?
My valuable pr0n collection! Now I have to start all over again!
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Who gets to set the standards? There are several groups, each of which think that their system is the best. Why should all but one group be excluded? Why not just let the market decide what the 'standard' is?
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
This is the exact reason why I still haven't bought a dvd writer. +RW, +R, RAM, -RW, -R... a gazillion formats and now we have speed incompatibilities AND ofcourse a bunch of manufacturers who lied about their drives being firmware upgradeable. Why can't these clowns all sit down and actually define AND FOLLOW a standard ? Thanks to them, the whole dvd writer market is substantially less than it could have been. I've been waiting for more than two years now for things to clear up but still there's all these silly incompatibilities. How the heck do they expect to convince Joe Sixpack to buy one when MY head feels like exploding from all the confusion around this ?
It's not really too surprising. I've seen ~40x CD-R's that were labelled as being for use at a minimum burning speed of 16x.
It seems reasonable that chemicals that work well at low burning speeds wouldn't work well at high speeds, and vice versa.
1x DVD speed is a lot higher than 1x CD speed, so I would expect these issues to start popping up sooner in DVDs than they did in CDs.
Because if there are standards everyone follows we don't have a VHS vs. BETA fight again where half the people get screwed big time.
Because the market will decide to hold off on buying any DVD RW drives until one side has significant marketshare.
So it is actually up to the PC vendors to decide, and they will go with the cheaper, less useful system than the expensive feature filled one.
Because having four or five standards for effectively the same thing floating in the marketplace makes a mess. Consumers start to think the technology is just plain broken when they try to insert a type A disc into a type B reader and it doesn't work.
When we start having to say "D-V-D-dash-R-W" and "D-V-D-plus-R-W" and now start to get word that new larger-capacity discs of the same physical size are going to come out, the market starts to get really confused.
I have noticed that Some DVD players will like to play DVD-R media fine, and not DVD+R, and vice versa for other players. I took me a while to figure out which media works best in my DVD player. I have a 3+ year old Sony player and it likes DVD-R. My friends JVC likes DVD+R.
I also noticed that burning at 2x instead of 4x seems to play more reliably too. There is a noticably darker burn pattern on the disc if you closely inspect the 2x and the 4x burns.
I have only experimented with 2 or 3 different players, so the study is not very broad.
It depends on the drive. Most drives should be able to read the media. However, if the new DVD's require a diffrent timing to write them at the fast 4x speed, then older DVD drives might not be able to replicate that sort of setting, thus being unable to read them.
Its like the 90 minuite CDs that you can get (and using Overburn on a 80 min cd, you can make them as well), only drives which allow you to move the laser to the edge of the disk can use them, and there are quite a few drives out there with firmware that prevents the laser from going that far out, thus making it impossible to use those disks.
Hopefully someone will make a damn standerd out of it and have done, its quite annoying having to think about DVD+R, DVD-R, DVD+RW, DVD-RW, DVD-RAM, and what drives can take them.
NeoThermic
Use my link above, or to view my server, NeoThermic.com
For all those who haven't upgraded to a DVD burner because of all the possible formats get a Multi-drive. I have a nice LG that burns DVD-/+R/RW and DVD-RAM as well as normal CD-R/RW's. They aren't too much more expensive and tend to make life much easier.
Calling all enthusiasts!!! Hello!!!!
If you look at it carefully, I'm fairly certain that this mess exists not because of technical disagreements, but because of POLITICAL disagreements. I have yet to hear of a real technical disagreement that doesn't get solved SOMEHOW, even if only as a compromise in the end.
Personally, I'd be willing to bet you this has EVERYTHING to do with power and control. Basically, we have two camps: the DVD Forum, and the DVD+RW Alliance (The Forum and The Alliance as I like to call them), and they are both vying for control of the "standard," because they both want to be able to get a cut of the royalties on every DVD+/-RW player made. If one got a MONOPOLY, it could be a real cash cow!!! Boy, I'd sure love to have a piece of that golden harvest, wouldn't you?!?!?
The last story about the non-upgradable HP 100i drive is over two years old! The article mentions a guy who bought his drive just a few months ago - but the HP 300i has been available since I bought mine in March 2003. The 300i is compatible with both +R and +RW - no upgrade needed.
How about some recent info:
href=http://www.theregister.com/content/63/3635
Religion and science are both 90% crap..but that doesn't negate the other 10%.
The difference is:
A DVD+ and DVD- disc will read in virtually any drive, period. Unlike a Beta tape, which will never read in a VHS VCR.
More importantly, at the time of the format wars, a VCR cost $400, which, translated to today's dollars, probably feels like buying an $800 item right now. Also, the VCR was expected to last a decade back then (as a matter of fact, I still have a 1984 Zenith VCR - working). DVD burner for your computer is expected to last 2, maybe 3 years prior to replacement and costs $150.
The absolute worst you can be screwed is:
- Lack of media being produced in your format (You lose $150 on the drive)
- Having media left over when your drive dies that will not work in burners now being sold (You lose... hmmm... in my case $50)
The worst you could be screwed during VHS vs. Beta format wars was:
- Entire tape collection obsoleted (if you bought pre-recorded tapes at the time, minimum $100, likely many thousands of dollars if you were an enthusiast)
- Tape collection cannot be recovered into other format (assuming all Beta/VHS VCRs dropped off the face of the planet) (priceless, if you managed to tape something that will never be broadcast again, or if you had a Beta/VHS handycam)
- Lack of media being produced in your format ($400 then, $800 now for a new drive)
- Having media left over when your drive dies that will not work in burners now being sold ($50, maybe...)
We're talking a lot of difference in losses here. $200 is manageable. Thousands of dollars, and a loss of priceless work isn't.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
Why isn't there a standard format that can be adhered to so that a DVD RW here is a DVD RW there?
You can't get five people to agree on where to go for lunch; what makes you think it's easy for them to agree on technical issues, particularly when their companies have developed technology, products, patents, or markets at stake?
Windows is de facto "standard" for PC software. Why don't you just run that instead of Linux? How come those Linux guys don't get together and just define one standard distro instead of having a zillion of them?
Technology is developed before it is standardized. You don't just create paper documents of wishful thinking and then wait for someone to implement it. You start with proposals based on what is possible and usually what exists. After that, it's politics, not engineering.
The best thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from! :)
Fellowship 9/11
So answer the question. Why gets to decide what the standard is and why should one group get total control over the market?
Some reasons, historically abound;
1. They're a monopoly already
2. They're the ones allowing porn on the format
3. They're the ones with the patents
4. They're everybody, and everybody can join in
1) is the ITU way
2) is the VHS way
3) is the CD way (philips/sony)
4) is the ISO way
But you're missing the real point; obviously if everybody involved in making higer-capacity-than-CD optical media could just come up with a single, future-proof standard, there would be no confusion among consumers, and everybody would be competing on a level playing field. Standards aren't about excluding competitors - at least, not by definition. That only happens when smart asses throw in a lot of patents to rake in the money.
So that would be
5. People get fed up with factions, the peace pipe is smoked, and a single standard is decided upon to make sure the technology works and SELLS.
that would be
5) the way of the screw.
The way things are going with DVD, the Chinese stand a good chance to come up with a better, less encumbered, and more standardized format. And not because they're communists, but because they're cheap asses who don't want to spring for the MPEG4/ACC/CSS/Dolby/etc. patents.
SCO employee? Check out the bounty
priceless, if you managed to tape something that will never be broadcast again, or if you had a Beta/VHS handycam)
R-Kelley w/ a handycam and an underage hooker? Priceless.
Look around. See anybody in the "market" deciding? The market is too scared to buy any DVD writer, precisely because there's no standard.
Having competing manufacturers in the marketplace is a good thing. Having competing "standards" in the marketplace is a bad thing. This isn't about excluding any group. It's about excluding all the superfluous technologies.
since when? any walmart, compusa, office depot, staples, etc now cares drives that record in BOTH formats. That's right, you heard me, + and -. And those drives are usually the same price as the + only or the - only drives if not cheaper. Why? Because that's what the public is buying! We got fed up with the - only and the + only and refused to buy, so now that their are drives that do both they're actually selling well.
Case in point: I bought a drive that does +R and -R at 8x for $100 shipped recently. No, not with rebates or coupons or other crap, that's regular price.
Imagine what would have happened if they would have made machines that played Beta and VHS AND it was cheaper than the beta only or VHS only machines? I'd imagine we'd still have Beta around.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
Seriously, man-- you're the exception, not the rule. + and - both read in the vast majority of players. The parent poster didn't claim "all," he claimed "virtually any." Which you are unlucky enough to not be part of.
To add one more datapoint to this overwhelmingly thorough survey-- I have 3 old DVD players that both read both formats, and one old hitachi DVD-ROM that won't read any of them. And one IBM laptop that didn't used to, but now does after a firmware upgrade.
So you are one of the unlucky 15% thhat can not read DVD+R/W. Fortunately, you are not one of the unlucky 7% that can not read DVD-R/W.
Depending on your sources the numbers will be slightly different and the older a DVD drive the more likely it will not read a given media. Still, the grandparent is not contradictory with the the parent post.
I would also advise Sandman to try different media. Different brands use differnt dyes and reflective layers. This results in different compatibility matrices. I have seen where one brand would not play on a JVC deck but a diferent brand would mostly play. Sometimes the menu would lock but once the movie started, it would play fine.
Just a Tuna in the Sea of Life
nr.1. DVD-R
DVD-R is 100% compatible with the DVD-ROM standard. The DVD-ROM standard is actually closely analoge to the CD-ROM standard upon which the very popular CD-R recordable is based.
burningtools :
no.2. DVD+R
DVD+R is not 100% compatible with the DVD-ROM standard. Basicly DVD+R is a packet writing standard, instead of tracks, where the last track normally ain't closed. Only to be used in this way for multitrack multi-volume backup and archive tasks. growisofs however has been extended to write -dvd-compat dvd-video iso-images to DVD+R recordable, and closing the disc.
burningtools :
no.3. DVD-RW
DVD-RW is mostly an analog standard to CD-RW. I use it when designing/creating and debugging new iso's.
burningtools :
no.4. DVD+RW
DVD+RW is where i touch in the dark. Basicly i would assume that DVD+RW is just a DVD+R which can be 100% erased, and thus be used again as Multi-track/Multi-volume archive disc.
burning tools:
Urls : e s/joerg.schilling/private/cdrecord.html
dvd+rw-tools: http://fy.chalmers.se/~appro/linux/DVD+RW/
cdrecord-prodvd: ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/cdrecord/ProDVD/
cdrtools: http://www.fokus.fhg.de/research/cc/glone/employe
oss dvd: http://crashrecovery.org/oss-dvd.html
Robert
Just take a look at bitsetting. It addresses exactly that problem.
Simple explanation here
Basically, DVD-RW format did not exist when your player was built. Your player is probably able to read the disk but won't because it doesn't recognize the format. You need to trick it into thihking the disk is a plain DVD-Rom, and it should read it. (and that's what bitsetting does)
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