NEC Develops Linux Tablet/PDA Hybrid

zmcnulty writes "I've translated today's PC Watch article (Japanese) about a new tablet/PDA device from NEC - it has an 8.4" (640x480) touchscreen LCD, and a CD-ROM drive. It's also suprisingly affordable; about $645 USD. However, don't expect to be able to buy one soon, as production is limited to only 4,000 units for the first year. Still, this is an interesting prospect, and it's good to see major Japanese corporations interested in Linux."

Comments

Handheld Linux

[brolewis]

Being an avid handheld user (T3) I think that Linux on the handheld is a largely untapped medium. I think that the power and flexibility of Linux on something as small and effecient as a handheld is an excellent combinaiton. I also think that the open nature of Linux would work to the handheld's advantage. There are numerous times I wish I could tweak settings or applicaions on my handheld but I am not able to do so. I hope this is the beginning of a long-term shift in the handheld market.

Re:Handheld Linux

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Being an avid (insert random technology here), I think Linux on the (insert random hardware plaform here) is a largely untapped medium. I think that the power and flexibility of Linux on something as small and effecient as a (insert random hardware plaform here) is an excellent combinaiton. I also think that the open nature of Linux would work to the (insert random hardware plaform here) advantage. There are numerous times I wish I could tweak settings or applicaions on my (insert random hardware plaform here) but I am not able to do so. I hope this is the beginning of a long-term shift in the (insert random hardware plaform here) market.

Re:Handheld Linux

[gl4ss]

heheh. yeah especially when 'it runs linux' is not really the answer to everything on handheld systems with environment as limited as the manufacturer has chosen.. the question is: "will the programs of my choosing be able to run on it?" not "does it run linux underneath somewhere where I can't see?"

I dont really care that much about if it runs linux/windowsCe/symbian/palmos as much I care about the ability to compile stuff that will run on it. just because 'it runs linux' doesn't mean it. a machine running linux can be quite effectively(as effectively as it matters) locked up from (unsigned or just from anything at all) 3rd party applications. Something people who are raving about 'it runs linux' phones & etc seem to be often forgetting.

Tablets

[The_Mystic_For_Real]

It's good to see the idea that failed for Windows adopted by the Linux community.

Re:Tablets

[ToadMan8]

I wouldn't say failed... I am a Gentoo desktop user but I am writing this to you during class from my Compaq tablet running XP Tablet. Ony M$ft bothered getting the buttons, screen rotation and extras working and it does quite well. Just because they didn't replace laptops doesn't make them a failure.

Re:Tablets

[hak1du]

At $2000 with a 3h battery life and 6 pounds of weight, TabletPC is a loser. At $650 with a 6h battery life and 3 pounds of weight, it could be a winner (this device has a 2h battery life and weighs 2 pounds; they should increase the battery capacity--they have the spare weight to do it).

Re:Tablets

[ibbey]

I'm not quire sure I'd want to carry something around if it was bigger than a normal PDA.

But you're not the target market. You're problem is that you are only seeing the way you would use it.

There are numerous people/industries who'd love something a bit more potent then a PDA, but don't need a full laptop. There are many similar products on the market already, and they do very well. They just aren't sold at retail. They are sold to vertical markets, often with custom software, and are usually sold at a substantial profit margin. If the price point is correct, and the features are reasonable, this will do well.

Personally, I'd buy one of these right now if they were available. This would make the ideal car-pc. While that might not be a big enough market to sustain the production for a long period, I'm willing to bet that they could easily sell 4000 units a year.

Another potential market: Replacing portable DVD players (judging from the number on the market, this seems like a reasonable market segment to aim for). This is no bigger, not much more expensive, and can be used for something other then playing DVDs. The article only mentions a cd player, but if they offer a DVD, that could be it's killer app.

Re:Tablets

[mtnharo]

MS tried something similar, but ended up with a poor execution. It was pretty much a remote display for a desktop that used the XP Pro Remote Desktop function. Due to their insistance that you need a license for each person using a machine, you could only use the tablet display or a regular monitor, but not both at the same time. Also, you couldn't do anything involving video or animation over it because the remote desktop protocol couldn't keep up.

The only way to make something like this work is to use the "server" machine for storage and extra cpu power, but most everything would still have to run locally on the tablet display in order to make it usable for real computing. It wouldn't need a P4, but something strong enough for basic use, geared for power efficiency (Transmeta or VIA chip maybe). It would save power/weight by not having a built-in HD or other drives. Some usb ports and SD/CF slots would cover storage, and the base system could load off of internal flash.

Well, whose going to build it first? It's basically a Network Computer like Sun always envisioned, but portable. Why hasn't it happened yet?

only 640x480?

[ejaw5]

Sure 8.4" diag isn't large, but at least 800x600 would have been nicer. What they have is fine for your command prompt, but I'm sure it's gonna get pretty cramped once you start running Gnome/KDE and GUI apps..even with virtual desktops. Hopefully the included GUI software will have slimed-down/iconified buttons and such.

Re:only 640x480?

[davejenkins]

I would have to agree with this assessment, and add that JPY 68,000 is a lot to pay for something like this, especially when compared to the Sharp Zaurus C-760 PDA, which also "runs Linux", has 640x480, is Flash upgradable to a full open OS, and retails for JPY 45,000 (~$420).

The only thing this has going for it is the 8-inch screen, which is not so much of an advantage if it cannot fit in your pocket, and therefore must be treated like a full notebook PC.

Re:Stupid M$ "Innovation"

[boarder8925]

Face it, a huge tablet isn't a PDA.

That depends. If you mean "PDA" as in "Personal Digital Assistant," then it is a PDA. If you mean "PDA" as in "Public Display of Affection," it's not.

Truth

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for your karma whore. You like this idea very much. You like PDAs very much. You wish you could tweak your PDA. You think the open nature of Linux would work to the PDA's advantage. Thank you for offering nothing of actual value that will be modded up. Speak in repeated short sentences that ends with a "I hope this is the beginning of..." statement that yet again doesn't actually say anything.

Re:Truth

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you for offering nothing of actual value that will be modded up. Speak in repeated short sentences that ends with a "I hope this is the beginning of..." statement that yet again doesn't actually say anything.

Where the hell have you been?

You just described 90% of the posts here.

LookPal???

[ferrellcat]

Where do they get these names?

Seems kind of intimidating!

$645 Affordable?

[puto]

Pardon me Antoine but you need to lay the crack pipe down and get a grip.

I have had top of the line Palms and PPCs with all the fixings and nowhere near paid that much. And these devices have *Loads* of software free and purchased on the market.

I use a Dell Axim supplied by work and am pretty happy with it.

I am daily linux user, have been for years. But 645? There goes the TCO argument.

I can get a laptop for 645. A 4 day trip to mexico.

Puto

Re:$645 Affordable?

[egomaniac]

I have had top of the line Palms and PPCs with all the fixings and nowhere near paid that much. And these devices have *Loads* of software free and purchased on the market.

My top-of-the-line Sony Clie UX50 + 1GB memory stick cost nearly $1,000.

Not sure what definition you are using for "top-of-the-line", since a top-of-the-line Palm is definitely in this price range. $645 for a cool electronic gadget may not be "affordable" to everybody, but there is obviously no shortage of people who are willing to fork it out.

Re:$645 Affordable?

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Those prices are also for the Japanese market. It might be less if produced for the US. Or not. It really depends. I also wouldn't suggest comparing the price of one type of device in one country with a high cost of living with that of a different kind of device sold in a different country with a much lower cost of living.

Comparing it to Palms and Pocket PCs doesn't jive well as the screen has over four times the visible screen area.

I was just thinking

[HappyCitizen]

Whats the point of linux on a pda? I mean, Windows Mobile does it just fine. Its 100% designed for mobile, and even coming from microsoft, I never find it crashing. I was gonna install linux, but I didn't want to risk everything, and it was pointless I realized. Windows Mobile does everything just fine, I know your not used to hearing something good about Microsoft on /., but its true. Now, with a hybrid, it still sounds a little huge for a pda. I think once it gets that big, its really a tablet, in which case linux is a great idea. I think this is a whole new angle from which linux could attack the Mobile market, and in this case be worth it, and its advantages will be shown.

Re:I was just thinking

[UnknowingFool]

I mean, Windows Mobile does it just fine. Its 100% designed for mobile, and even coming from microsoft, I never find it crashing. I was gonna install linux, but I didn't want to risk everything, and it was pointless I realized.

I would think the main reason would be would be cost. Companies either build their own OS (like Palm) or license from another company (Palm, MS, etc) or customize an open source OS like Linux. Cost wise adapting Linux may be cheaper in some cases than licensing. With PDA prices slipping, cutting every cost is important.

For hobbyists,teh reason to install Linux is probably boredom, curiosity, etc. It's the same reason why people overclock or mod their cases.

Linux Tablet/PDA Hybrid

[Sla$hd0tSux0r]

Well, some colleagues and I investigated a Linux Tablet/PDA Hybrid a few months ago. The upshot was that we are somewhat unimpressed... there are more powerful solutions hitting the market soon, and less expensive to boot.

Basically, we thought the Linux Tablet/PDA Hybrid was totally overrated and would recommend against it at this time.

translations

[geeber]

Apparantly some phrases, such as "surprisingly affordable," translate better than others...

$650 as surprisingly afforadble? Sheesh.

Re:*ring-ring*...

[Trelane]

...1998 is calling--it wants its "M$" back.

Actually, 1998 wants its Blue Screen of Death back. "M$" is a perennial favorite, esp. given MSFT's penchant for a) charging exorbitant prices for its stuff and b) making unheard-of fortunes (to the tune of $4 billion per quarter).

Taskbars existed before Microsoft. They were in the form of icon collection boxes under various WMs (Window Managers).

Minimize, maximize, and close button locations have varied widely, and are extremely configurable under Linux and are very arbitrary. The only "intuitiveness" about the location is where people have been programmed to look for 'em.

Print dialogs are standardized to various things. Again, "intuitiveness" is (almost) entirely pre-programming.

Browser file integration has existed before MSFT got involved (via the file:/// URL). MSFT upped the ante, though. Whether this is due to trying to crush the competition and dominate an important software sector or enhancing the end user desktop experience depends on whose kool-aid you drink.

"Start" menus again are of dubious intuitiveness. Personally, I found the click-on-root-window-to-bring-up-menus method of various WMs to be much more useful. .Net is Java (and indeed the concept of "virtual machine") rehashed and refined and (in the case of most of what people consider ".Net") Microsoft-only. Not a terrible lot of actual innovation there.

I'm not saying MSFT doesn't come up with interesting stuff, just that you need to come up with better examples. ;)

One example I'm curious about is tear-away/docking toolbars. I know toolbars/palettes existed before MSFT, but I don't know if the tear-away/docking kind did. Anyone have more info?

Actually, Go, Apple, GRiD, HP &c. innovated

[WillAdams]

_not_ MS.

Microsoft was actually rather late to the pen computing game --- and only got there by twisting Go Corp.'s invitation to develop apps to an excuse to create pen extensions for Windows since Go didn't follow their suggestion to do so (extrapolation of Jerry Kaplan's version in his book _StartUp_ and the spin placed on the same event in the book _Building Tablet PC Applications_)

Heck, even Atari had a prototype, the STylus.

There was also a Linus machine (no relation to a certain Thorvalds) which a few people have prototypes of.

And of course there was the ill-fated Momenta.

I've been a pen computing afficionado for a long while, and the machines have really gotten practical of late (power, battery life, are decent, storage is phenomenal).

Using a pen system means I've got all of my data with me, and can use it / manipulate it, _without_ needing to sit down and set up / make room for a clamshell laptop (I've been buying laptops since 1985 (GRiDCase III Plus), they're nice enough, but more awkward to use than a pen slate, less acceptable in some situations (meetings, interviews), and require that I schelp around a graphics tablet in addition (okay, graphic designers are pretty much unique in needing that).

But it's a _lot_ easier to mark up a .pdf w/ annotations using a pen than a mouse, esp. with the new Adobe Acrobat 6 (killer app for Linux, extend xpdf to allow it to annotate and fill in .pdf formas), and I don't have to spend time scanning my (paper) sketchbook, or transcribing notes from it.

This device is really interesting 'cause of the size (much smaller than most Tablet PCs --- guess they didn't want to compete with their own LitePad) and for its internal CD-ROM drive --- can you say portable e-book reader? (I'm thinking like the kid CD-ROMs, Living Books, Tivoli, et. al.)

William

Re:Actually, Go, Apple, GRiD, HP &c. innovated

[WillAdams]

My first thought on seeing the iMac G4 was, ``detachable screen, integrated processor, battery, storage, pen slate''.

Apple really could do a pen slate very nicely, it plays to a lot of their strengths, and unlike Microsoft, which charges extra for Tablet PC Edition of Windows XP Pro, InkWell (nee Rosetta, the Newton OS 2.x print recognizer) is bundled w/ all copies of the OS (at no extra expense to Apple either).

Battery life too.

Used to be one could install NeXTstep on a 105MB HD --- surely Apple could manage something in say half a gig (or just increase their volume on the 4GIG HDs being used for the iPod Mini and use that).

Oh yeah, one kind of bummer about this device --- there were considering using the spiffy TRON embedded OS, but apparently it was easier to make use of the CD-ROM using Linux. Rather a shame that, I'd love to have a consumer device running TRON (or a desktop either, anyone know of straightforward English instructions on how to install it and set it up?)

William

Re:Timothy, you fucking retard.

[zmcnulty]

Believe it or not, I'm the one that wrote that.

I chose "suprisingly affordable" because the main product I was comparing the NEC to is Sony's Airboard, which retails for 136,500 yen (around $1,300 USD) just by form factor. Obviously, the Airboard has more functionality, but details on the NEC device are still scarce.

Re:*ring-ring*...

[zulux]

Ahem...

* Taskbars
TRS-80 CoCo with Microware OS-9 had a Taskbar - in 1986
* Maximize, minimize, and close buttons in the upper-right corner.
My TRS-80 with Microware OS-9 has these. You could could configure them where you liked them. In 1986.
* The standard print dialog.
I'm impressed - Microsoft made a dialog.
* Internet browser/file browser integration.
Make your OS just as bugy as your browser. Great Idea!!!
* "Start" menus
Copied off of NeXT.
* .NET technology -
Copied off of Java and Pcode
* ...and much, much more

Like....

Clippy!
Product Activation!
Serial Codes!
No support for Alpha, Risc, PowerPC.

The only thing Microsoft did was to get 386 computesr to behave like computers costing much more (UNIX Workstations, Apples..) . Now that hardware performance is a lot cheaper - there's no need to run crappy software like Windows. You can get the real deal.

sleep/wake fails under Windows

[Anonymous Coward]

And about using Windows, "Apart from the cost being high, we wanted the ability to save the state of the device to memory immediately before powering off - and be able to resume work in that same position when the device is power on again. But since operating the device in this fashion made freezes very likely, we let Windows go."

This is the truth. All I need to do to lock up my Thinkpad is to close the lid, wait just long enough for Windows to *begin* going to sleep, and then open the lid again. At that point, the laptop is hung. Reliably. Works every time. It's probably one of the most reliable aspects of Windows...

RTFA

[rokzy]

The operating system used is Linux. NEC has explained that "We were originally looking at TRON, but due to some problems with using the CD-ROM, we went with Linux." And about using Windows, "Apart from the cost being high, we wanted the ability to save the state of the device to memory immediately before powering off - and be able to resume work in that same position when the device is power on again. But since operating the device in this fashion made freezes very likely, we let Windows go."

Wow, haven't we come far in 5 years?

[Tarantismic Yak]

No, no we haven't :0) The Toshiba Portege 3010/3020 series, released in 1998, is smaller volumetrically, has 64MB from factory, probably a faster processor ( especially the 3020CT ) and is more than FIVE years old! Toshiba's brochures are still available:

3010CT
3020CT

A bit more here:

http://www.ids.org.au/~shaynest/articles/portege/

The NEC is larger, volume wise. Yes, it has a CD drive built in, but who uses those things on the road anyway? Sheesh. How did this make NEWS?

Just buy a laptop

[Gothmolly]

For this price, get a used laptop or iBook off ebay and throw Linux on it. Then you'll get a real display, HD, expandibility, etc. No cramped screen, no expensive wifi cards, just a real system, but one that you can take with you. Like here
650 USD, done.

Re:Just buy a laptop

[zmcnulty]

But would this be simple?
Maybe for you, but for the market of this device, no.
The article explains that there are only 4 icons that appear when the device is powered on, stuff does not need to be double clicked, etc...
It uses England's Picsel Technologies browser, which opens 20 different file formats, right from said application.
Sure, there may have been other devices in the past with the same functionality, and certainly cheaper options are available, but NEC's focus for this device is ease of operation. This is one of the reasons they are marketing it towards municipalities for tourism, it's intended to be usable by anyone.

Re:*ring-ring*...

[The Bungi]

I'm impressed - Microsoft made a dialog.

Well, you should be impressed - after all, it took GNOME and/or KDE sever years and releases to make halfway useable dialogs. And they're still not standardized and therefore confusing.

The rest of your post is of course the same tired bullshit everyone tends to spit out every time this comes up, except that interestingly you didn't use the XEROX PARC as the end of the string. "Clippy"? HAHAHAH!!! You forgot "M$ BOB"!!

This all non-innovative crap "M$" keeps churning out... I just don't understand why KDE and GNOME and everyone else keep copying it (badly) year after year. It's distressing, I know. I mean, they copy the Windows shell, Outlook, Visual Studio, .NET, Office, etc. It's maddening, I tell you!

my linux handheld costs even more at $699

[Anonymous Coward]

I just got a linux handheld with a 640x480 4" screen, the Sharp Zaurus SL-6000L, from PC Connection for $699.

It was quite inexpensive compared to a Dell Axim, in the sense that the Dell Axim costs ALMOST NOTHING TO PRODUCE, so more of your money can go to wiping out Linux when you purchase the Axim.

Yes, you who purchase the Axim and put Linux on it could, if you would follow your few dollars, find them wending their way to Redmond, and thence to SCO, or wherever the people who are threatened by Linux wish to apply it.

Your total cost of ownership is quite a bit higher than your initial outlay because of this. Also, MY total cost of ownership is higher because you do this, so I am asking you to stop! Buy something with Linux pre-installed for a change!

p.s. The display on the SL-6000L is magnificent! I think a lot of my extra cash went into that.

Lose the CD..

[-tji]

I think there is, or at least will be, a market for tablet devices. But the options thus far have been crap. A desktop OS, like XP, on a tablet form factor, just doesn't work.

First, portability is important. No, it doesn't need to fit in a shirt pocket. But, a two inch thick brick is not ganna work either. Lose the CD drive, it's not useful enough to waste the space for. Get the thickness down to that of a Palm V, while being lightweight and durable, and you've got something.

Even the hard drive is questionable.. Put enought flash memory in it to hold the OS and Apps. Include a could SD slots for expansion/removable media. Of course, Wifi and bluetooth are needed, along with a USB 2.0 port or two.

good!

[Sarin]

- step 1: make 4000 tablet pc's
- step 2: NEC30CD-ROM LOOKCLUB68,250()
- step 3: profit!

'interesting' that japanese are interested...

[BlueboyX]

Um, they are more 'interested' in Linux than we are! Well, kind of... When I visited Kyoto, all the university nerds wanted to learn was Windows because all the universities tought was Linux. In my university in the US we wanted to learn Linux while all that the university (Columbus State University) tought was windows. :P

Well, my point is to not be too suprised when you see a Japanese product runing Linux because a LOT of Japanese students are being tought how to use it and program for it.

Finally the Star Trek PADD I've been waiting for

[aardwolf204]

I've always said I wanted a wireless enabled device thats bigger than a PDA and smaller than a tablet like the pads they use on Star Trek. One of these babies running an ARM processor with WiFi and thinner (no CDROM) would kick major butt. And since it runs linux I asume there is some way I could whip it up to look like LCARS. (LCARS Linux distribution anyone? Please? Linky?!)

Ok, maybe this is just another one of my geek fantasies (like having 24" touch-lcd screens mounted on my walls for quick home automation and internet access) but I'm sure other slashgeeks out there share the dream. Glad to know we're one step closer.

More Linux Tablet PCs

[wehe]

There are more Tablet PCs, which come pre-installed with Linux. But almost none of them has made it into the market yet.

I've seen this before...

[fux]

Isn't it an Etch A Sketch?