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Sun and Microsoft Settle Litigation
spurious cowherd writes "According to The Register Sun Microsystems & Microsoft have reached a settlement in their several lawsuits aainst each other. Sun gets $2B and both parties agree to share intellectual property." There's a press release to read as well.
Seriously, not to be a troll. I really think that MS did damage Sun. I wonder if this $2B will give them a profit this quarter. They sure could use one...
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
Doubling your available cash assests (Yahoo Finance) will help, but the company is still bleeding money. (Dropping 3,000+ jobs will also help.) Really what this appears to mean is that Microsoft has put Sun on life support so they don't become the only vendor in the virtual machine driven software development market. Imagine the potential antitrust suit if Java wasn't there to compete against dot Net. Frankly, I think this shows that Microsoft thinks it is winning this battle, otherwise they wouldn't have thrown the bone to them.
Sig under construction since 1998.
So does this mean that Windows will start shipping with Java again? Or will Sun kick their own nut sack again and counter sue to stop Microsoft from shipping any version of Java (again)?
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Not good for software-patent sanity, open source, etc.
Any general knows that fighting a two front war is a bad thing, and Sun has effectively limited one of the fronts they are fighting on. But, the other front could kill them. IBM has a special mission to kill Sun dead, and they are a formidable foe. With their sweet computers (all of which run Linux) and their low prices, Sun can barely compete.
Sun needed this cash and the break with the fight with Microsoft. But I doubt that in the long run it will be enough. Their Opteron strategy just has to pay off for them if they want to last another 10 years.
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
$2 Billion is the most that Microsoft has EVER payed out to any company. To reach a settlement like this, they may have future plans to do a lot more with Java. Technology sharing...
-- Len
Microsoft has continuously tried to defeat Linux by forcing features on users that are incompatible with Linux, while Linux produces a workaround or a compatability layer. Well, this would be one less thing to try and workaround.
I don't think this is an advantage for Microsoft as now .NET developers can choose to use hybrid Java/.NET solutions that both do authentication depending on which language is the better choice for that task.
Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
So, what's the catch?
I notice a number of people commenting on the balance of Microsoft's cash on hand. I believe that we will witness erosion of the giant rather than the instant destruction. A billion here five hundred million there, a few lost customers, a few governmental restrictions, pressure to give deep discounts they all add up and over time the surplus will erode away. How are they going to fight when they can't throw money at their problems, when they can't afford to take a loss in furtherance of their strangle hold?
i believe the most interesting line is:
Sun is also satisfied that the agreements announced today satisfy the objectives it was pursuing in the EU actions pending against Microsoft.
As Sun was the major complaining competitor in the EU case, this gives M$ a lot of fire support when trying to challenge the record fine. Another indication is the timing: shortly after the EU announced the fine.
Regards, Martin
STOP WRITING APPLETS
You're just ticking everyone off. Most web users hate it when they come to a page and have to wait for the applet to load so they can use their browser again. If you want to deploy an application easily, use Java Webstart.
Try this.
1. Go here.
2. After you come back, click on this link: Launch Now!.
More great Webstart apps can be found at Up2Go.
Javascript + Nintendo DSi = DSiCade
Shit. Sun sold their soul. See the press-release: "Microsoft Support for Java: The companies have agreed that Microsoft may continue to provide product support for the Microsoft Java Virtual Machine that customers have deployed in Microsoft's products".
Dear Scott, now that you've sold your soul, have dealt with the devil: what's next? DOT-NET compatibility layers for Java? Cooperation with Unisys to provider 32-CPU servers for Windows Datacenter edition? IMHO you've just destroyed your lifework, no wonder all your buddies left your company in the last years...
This is just sad.
Even then, they wouldn't be able to force web sites to use it - now without financial incentive. Further, most web designers actually care about cross-platform capability (even if their customers don't).
Just food for thought.
Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
From the article:
Legal Settlements: The two companies are settling and terminating their lawsuit in the United States. Sun is also satisfied that the agreements announced today satisfy the objectives it was pursuing in the EU actions pending against Microsoft.
[ emphasis was added by me ]
I thought Sun was the primary driver behind the whole thing in the first place. What's going to happen now?
AirSpeak - http://itunes.com/apps/AirSpeak
1) $2B to one company vs 600M to all of Europe.
.Net and Java - Here it is people, the reason why there will be no open source Java. MS already got their hands in it.
2) Collaboration on
3) Incedentally, MS will use this to kill off Java.
McNealy is a moron. He screwes up time and time again and still maintains a company. This man is truly a ledgend. I think McBride idolizes him, but McBride won't survive. He's just not that good.
And what is it with Irish dumbasses (Mc*) running tech-biz?
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
I read the press release and this is what I get out of it:
.NET and user authentication problems in Windows
MS gives Sun some cash
Sun helps MS fix
Sun sells Windows on Sun Xeon and Opteron boxes
Sun hands over any good ideas they have left
Sun never sues MS ever again for their illegal business practices.
I can only hope that this news will run SUNW up high enough so I can finally get out.
burnin
This deal reminds me of the Apple/Microsoft deal. If you can't beat 'em, give them a whole lot of money to become "technical partners."
I wonder how StarOffice for Windows fits into this? I doubt that it's going to be around to much longer.
This would also explain why Sun doesn't want to open source Java.
I would hope not; but this seems like an interesting fear. Seems Sun is the last Unix vendor left whose strategy is based on a very large R&D investment in a proprietary Unix; and it is in both their interest and Microsoft's for Sun to protect this investment.
Neither of these are off topic. The issue is how does the $2,000,000,000 ($2 billion) effect MS Stock. If Sun took a 15% jump as listed above, the issue is a fair point. Sun has been listing in March a bit and this could be a nice shot in the arm. In the same period, MS has dropped as well. No big change yet today. Should see response by 12:00 on the east coast.
Potential this could be a win-win for both sides form a stock perspective!
Sun gets $2B and both parties agree to share intellectual property
Compare this $2B with the $600M fine levied by the European Union. The difference between the two values is revealing, and can be intepreted in two ways. Either the EU judgement was yet another fudge, and Microsoft have once more got off lightly after being convicted of monopoly abuse.
Or, a large part of the intellectual property sharing is a Java payoff. In particular, Sun may have agreed to waive any complaints regarding the fact that C# is lifted from Java, in return for the large pile of cash.
Personally, I think both explainations are equally probable, and the reality is an admixture of the two.
Tubal-Cain smokes the white owl.
- Applets are one of the worst technologies ever wrought on the Web. ActiveX is about as bad, and Push was bad but at least we didn't have to ever use it. If Applets will now be outdated too, maybe there will be less of them. This is good for Microsoft (less Java) and for Sun (less embarassing Java).
- JVMs change constantly. The JVM I write my app for is probably not the one you wrote yours for. Rarely do people deploy Java assuming it ought to run - they specify a JVM it's intended for, and often demand you install that JVM and point to it for their software. JVMs coexist very peacefully. The point is, there's no sense in Windows shipping with a JVM - you're just going to go around it with each Java product you install anyway.
Now, is this deal is actually good for both companies? Microsoft tends to make a very poor bed partner - they give you sweaty sheets for a few months and then throw everything you own out the window. Just look at how they've turned their backs on nVidia after the Xbox partnership - and Microsoft bashers can provide many more historical examples. Sun will need a very strong strategy that leverages the benefits of the combined technology beyond Microsoft's reach if they intend to gain from this - like the way nVidia used Microsoft's money to launch into the motherboard market.This is good for Sun and good for the open source community in general....
1. Sun can finally stop fighting a losing battle, and they actually get $2B - which is not an insignificant sum, no matter who is paying it. MS would not just fork over 2 BILLION dollars if they thought they could avoid it. I think Sun should get some credit for squeezing significant cash from that stone.
2. The details, which are still not clear, regarding the agreement to allow for better interop between Active Directory and the Identity server that Sun sells (which runs on Linux and Solaris) are pretty interesting. If MS is agreeing to make some of their proprietary interfaces and protocols available to Unix/Linux vendors then this gives Unix & Linux vendors a
way to use non-MS software and to Interoperate better with MS. Believe it or not, Slashdot karma whores, interoperating with MS and active directory is actually an important feature that large enterprises consider very carefully when evaluating servers and desktop solutions. Don't say "but, we have SAMBA!". SAMBA is a collossal hairball of ugly, unsupportable, indecipherable hacks on top of hacks and doesn't even come close to addressing many of the more useful features that AD offers.
Basically, if you need the client to do some processing then you are relegatedt to Java (WebStart or otherwise) or JavaScript, .NET, or (gasp) an ActiveX (flash qualifies as an ActiveX product).
None of these methods are exactly clean, but from many user's perspective the ancient - built in to most I.E. Java 1.1 - is the most convenient.
Kinetic stupidity has a new brand leader: Allen Zadr.
I'm no conspiracy theorist but it's just a little odd that Sun decided not to go open source with Java and now Microsoft seems to be settling so easily ($2,000,000,000 seems like a payoff)... What really bothers me is the part that says "both parties agree to share intellectual property."
;)
All I'm waiting for now is to see how difficult open source implementation of scripting for Java will become.
Moderators: When in doubt, mod Interesting
Business \Busi"ness\, n.;
A scam in which all people involved perceive as beneficial...
To me, that means that Microsoft must have a strategy for if/when Open Source becomes the norm. Though it might be 5-10 years down the line, and Microsoft battling every step of the way, if/when Open Source Software becomes the norm, they must have plans to adjust their business. It'll be interesting to see how things play out...
In times like these, it is helpful to remember that there have always been times like these. - Paul Harvey
Two points, catered to delivering Java-powered client applications to John Q. Public effortlessly (let's face it; that's what applets did):
Up until now, you could release a Java 1.1.x compatible *application* (no security sandbox) without worrying about Granny Smith even having been able to spell jre when she was downloading. That's a good thing. 1.1.x is plenty to check and see if there's a Java 2 JRE laying around, and helping Granny get it if you absolutely need it.
Which brings me to point 2... Do you really *need* Java 2, or do you just want it? Admittedly Swing is a little buggy on 1.1.4 [if you include swingall.jar], which is as far as MS's VM got before the mess started, but Oracle still ships a version of 1.1.8 to power its management tools. There's very little you can't do with 1.1.x, especially once you've got the Collections API in the mix.
I've seen emails go across the Apple Java Development mailing list saying things like, "Our boss says we *have* to have generics, so Macs and their 1.4.x JVM are right out for development." Look, these are things you've been happily *not* using for all of Java's existence, that older code still works in 1.5, yet you're moving the whole of your development over b/c you think a new, just out of beta feature is cool? "As if source code rusted."
This settlement is great news for Java on the desktop. The longer you can keep more of your code 1.1 friendly, the longer you can deploy effortlessly on Windows. That window had almost closed, and now it's back, wide open.
And from the press release, though I'm not so optimistic to believe it'll necessarily be the case, there's nothing ruling out MS's installation of a newer version of Sun's jre by default in the future. Heck, it ain't jre's or clr's that boost an OS, it's, "Developers, developers, developers, developers." Maybe MS sees the more the merrier, and would prefer things like Sun's Mad Hatter not gain any special traction. Reminds me a little of AOL dropping Mozilla (which it based the OS X AOL client on as proof of concept in the Great Game of 0110 Chicken 2003) the second after MS relicensed them the IE engine.
It's all 0s and 1s. Or it's not.
As usual, this comment is almost correct, but not quite. Please try not to oversimplify if you don't know what you are talking about. The reason Sun had MS stop distributing the JRE was because the only JRE MS could legally distribute when they had to include it in the OS was JRE 1.1.8. If you at all know about the Java industry, JRE 1.1.8 came out pre-1998 and Java is about to release 1.5 after 1.2.x, 1.3.x, and 1.4.x. So, if you were a company that wants developers to use the latest and greatest in what Java has to offer in their applets, then you definitely don't want JRE 1.1.8 being distributed. This is crippling the devolpment of at most applet development in the whole scheme of things that Java is used for. As a developer, you would have to consider this if you want to include as many people as possible into your web audience, which in effect forces development to pre-1999 levels of Java for applet development. That sucks.
/.er's, don't be so gullible to reward stupid rhetoric. For all we know, this person is an MS fanboy and purposefully not mentioning details that would otherwise make things a little clearer to form an opinion on. Either it's that, or this person is lazy and stupid and doesn't do his homework before opening his big mouth. So, do your due dilligence before repeating corporate bullshit, you mimic.
Not sure who considers your comment insightful as it is very vaque. Come on
Looks like Sun might have gone from "Teetering on irrelevancy" to "Embraced, Extended and Extinguished." At least they got some cash to cushion the golden parachutes.
> 1. Applets are one of the worst technologies ever wrought on the Web.
Sorry, but you definitely don't know what you are talking about.
Applets, when run using newer VMs, do things the flash/javascript gurus are still dreaming of.
Ever seen a decent full-featured e-mail editor inside a thin client solution which is NOT using Java?
I bet not. At least not the beast we are developing. Full HTML support, spell-checking-while-typing etc. in a small applet.
The applet is cached on the client side, so the initial download hit (around 5 secs) goes down to below 1 second after the first usage.
I can tell what the worst thing was ever brought to the web:
Misusing HTML as an exact layout language and trying to create decent applications with it.
arguing about issues in court that have pretty much been steamrolled by technology
Yes, this accord is very much reminscent of the earlier settlement where for US$750 million AOL agreed to abandon its Netscape action against Microsoft.
AOL needed the cash bad and Netscape had been already practically steamrolled over by Internet Explorer (with the interesting sidenote of giving Apple $150M to pick IE).
If this trend continues, whoever buys up the failing corpse of RealNetworks will be in for some cash from MS in a year or so...
"Provided by the management for your protection."
An interesting thing is that McNealy and Ballmer were just on CNBC, sitting next to each other discussing the whole deal. It turns out McNealy made the first overture to start the whole thing.
What do you know about coffins and nails aside from the ones you put in the ground? Do you think a company with billions of dollars is going to drop dead? Are you some kind of authority that has devoted his time to understanding the complexities of MS and Sun?
For one, Java is a dominant player in Enterprise software and the independent Java vendors realized the need for single sign on in this marker space. MS wants to be a major player in Enterprise software too and also realizes the importance of single sign on. Vendors in the Java space are not likely to pay or implement a MS spec they have no say so on. In effect, this orphans MS enterprise apps that should be offering single sign on just like all the other software in the space. So, you cave in and do what you can do to interoperate with other vendors. This prevents single sign on compatibility and interoperability issues from being a sticking point with IT professionals that are being hounded to implement single sign on in their corporate environments. If you were MS, are you going to tell CTOs that they can't implement single sign on if they want to mix non-MS enterprise technologies and MS technologies?
If you were an IT professional that had to make purchasing decisions, do you go with vendor lock in that won't work with other apps like SAP and Siebel, or do you stay neutral with an independent standard realizing that your corporate environment is going to most likely be a heterogenous mix of vendor applications?
As far as I know, Sun is the only implementation fo the Libraty Alliance standard and maybe that is why they got the 2 billion. I wonder why we don't see MS making deals with BEA and IBM.
Good catch. Let's expand on this a little.
Microsoft has recently hired the guy who built up IBM's formidable patent portfolio.
Microsoft recently floated a trial balloon by asking for miniscule royalties on FAT16, the filesystem that goes into the little flash memory cards in cameras, PDAs, etc.
Microsoft may pay the $900MM now, but will get back much more later (note the "Sun and Microsoft will pay each other royalties"). In other words, McNealy has opted for short-term gain instead of long-term viability; expect Microsoft to use the patents to crush Sun in a couple of years.
The patents will also be Microsoft's key weapon againt the OSS community. Here's a snippet from an article :
Asked by CollabNet CTO Brian Behlendorf whether Microsoft will enforce its patents against open source projects, Mundie replied, "Yes, absolutely." An audience member pointed out that many open source projects aren't funded and so can't afford legal representation to rival Microsoft's. "Oh well," said Mundie. "Get your money, and let's go to court."
This is bad for SUNW and the shareholders, no doubt. Yes, McNeally and friends do get a lifeline of cash, but I'm sure MSFT is aware that they're merely postponing the inevitable.
What this means IMO is that SUNW is a more viable takeover target than they were 24 hours ago.
Granted, they could buy back shares with the new cash (and may want to, for many reasons), but the underlying business plan is very vulnerable. Linux is eating Solaris' lunch, and a custom hardware solution isn't cutting it today in the marketplace. (I know, Sun servers are fun to work with, quite reliable, blah blah blah. But I know a few organizations that are abandoning Solaris for Linux, if only for the price advantage.)
I'd be looking for suitors right about now, if I were part of SUNW's mgmt. team. (Or I'd flip off everyone in Mountain View and unfurl the golden parachute, depending on what kind of bastard I felt like that day.)
So here's an idea to debate: another Unix vendor is desperately trying to break into the server and enterprise computing market. Assuming that said vendor has the cash and the will to use it (big assumptions there, I know), would this be a worthwhile strategy to pursue?
--- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
How did their last, legal, "agreement" go? How about almost every company Microsoft signs "agreements" with and isn't a full fledged MSFT follower?
.Nyet
.....
Sun should have taken the money and walked away. Now, Sun is supposed to get the EU to back off, raise it's hand when the DOJ asks how signed up for MSFT's IP licensing and to a few other dances....All the while, Sun is supposed to be pushing Linux( Java Desktop ) and Solaris?????
This looks like more bad business on Sun's part. They'll be back in court or out of business and either way, Microsoft will wins because:
1) They'll have had Sun to help reduce pressure from the EU and US/DOJ
2) Distracted Sun by thinking it will get it's software to interoperate with Microsofts and Sun will lose more customers while gaining few->none.
3) Microsoft might get access to some of Sun's Java code too and that might help with some migrations from J2EE to
4)
IMHO.
LoB
"Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
Hey, Xfree did it. Why shouldn't Sun?
Corel killed their Linux distro within a few months of taking the M$ bailout.
Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
and see if SMI's internal Linux camp weren't among the 3000 shown the door. Note that the settlement included Imperial certification for SMI's x86 machinery. See if we ever hear anything more from Sun about Linux. This deal was all about sharing _proprietary_ technologies, all will be under NDA and NONE will ever filter out into FOSS.
Exceeding the recommended torque is not recommended.
"The applet DataDino is requesting unrestricted access to your hard drive and machine."
No thanks.
"Anyone that has ever gotten an idea based on any of my work and done something better with it-good for you."--J.Carmack
The interesting bit here is whether or not Microsoft just fell on their own sword. They've just set a precedent with a $2bn settlement over anti-trust and intellectual property!
If indeed this was a tactic to evade censure by the EU, they may have just openened themselves up to much bigger problems by providing a rock-solid precedent to other competitors.
I still doubt it. It's probably just something Microsoft threw into the settlement because they got more benefit from it. If you want more proof, look at Microsoft's pricing for the Microsoft Communications Protocols Program. If you want to use any of their "General Server" protocols, the minimum payment per unit is $40. If you're competing with Microsoft Windows, that's probably expensive enough to put you out of the running.
I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
I noticed the EU fine timing also.
My supposition is this. Sun had just proved that it could hound/"assist" the global legal system into fining Microsoft 600 million.
The $2 billion valuation figure for leaving Microsoft alone wasn't arrived at until it was clear what financial penalties Sun could (indirectly) cause to Microsoft if they persisted in pursuing them legally.
By agreeing to shell out $2 billion, Microsoft is pragmatically admitting that it would be subject to at least that many fines going forward if Sun kept pursuing the matter over the next decade.
(Microsoft *did* eviscerate the Java platform by tying IE to windows and trying to change the behavior of Java base clases rather than just adding easily recognized com.ms.* classes as its original contract clearly encouraged. All in all, a $2 billion settlement to kill off the biggest platform competitor to threaten them in a decade isn't *that* bad for someone of MS's size.)
--LP
negative.
MS is worth 56 billion. EU takes 600 million, SUN 2 billion. Total: 2.6 billion....4.6%
And what does this mean? Nothing but good things for MS and SUN. SUN now has capital to work wiht again and MS only has one pending lawsuit in the court system.
The shareholders win. yay!
I'd been a huge Sun fan for quite some time, but let's face it, they have a hand in their own troubles.
When Solaris came out they removed the C compiler and they were never really commited to the x86 product, like they could have should have been. Then the bought Cobalt and drove that right into the ground.
I remeber being told during the dot bomb years by one of the NYC reps that Sun will never be in the Linux general purpose market, Cobalts are only appliances.
They may not be dead, but neither was Novell. There will be the hard case hangers on.
They also remind me of IBM's loss of the PC field. Arguably NOT a M$ issue, just management short sightedness.
Now I just find Suns to be an inconvenience, suitable for some of the larger apps only. But then - why not go w/ HP?
True friends are hard to come by... I need more money. - Calvin