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Neal Stephenson's The Confusion Released

Jon Lasser writes "Neal Stephenson's 'The Confusion', second volume of his Baroque Cycle is released today. I received an advance copy and have a book review up here. The hypertext site for the trilogy is here. The short review: if you liked 'Quicksilver', this one is better; if you didn't, don't bother."

69 of 254 comments (clear)

  1. Confusion by Chuck+Bucket · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm confused, usually there's some long review of a book, followed by the FP! and GNAA posts, along with the 'cheaper at Amazon' links. This thread is different, at least for the time being.

    CVsb

    1. Re:Confusion by Patrik_AKA_RedX · · Score: 4, Funny

      A review? It's a book: Something happens to main character, a lot of other stuff happens, some more things take place, main character defeats King koopa and saves the princess and the butler did it! And they lived happely ever after, except for the butler who went to jail for doing it (she was underaged).

    2. Re:Confusion by Chuck+Bucket · · Score: 2, Funny
      but alas, upon freeing the princess, you are told
      • Thank You, But Our Princess Is In Another Castle!
      and then have to pass through a level with many swinging axes and fiery lava!

      CB

    3. Re:Confusion by ron_ivi · · Score: 2, Funny

      I'm confused to... I thought Stevenson was too busy working at this spaceship company to write books.

  2. Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver by dmh20002 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I loved Cryptonomicon. It was a page turner all the way through. I got bored with Quicksilver half way thru. I liked the parts that involved Newton and other real scientists, but when the fictional characters went off on their own it got complicated and boring. I never finished it.

    thats probably just me.

    1. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver by borud · · Score: 5, Interesting
      I've read about 540 pages of Quicksilver now and I have to agree that for the first 300 pages it was a pretty slow read for the most part. The parts with Newton and Waterhouse were very entertaining, but when Stephenson goes off putting things in a bigger historic perspective (or whatever he tries to do), things get a bit boring.

      Almost all of book two, where Shaftoe makes an entry, is really good so far. I like Stephenson's way of telling a story. He is good at describing the dynamics of inter-personal relationships and he uses a geeky sort of language that is really funny.

      When there's a story to be told, Neal Stephenson is a great writer, when not, you just want to kick him real hard. (Still he is not as bad as le'Carre, who has a nasty habit of drowning good plots in the kind of drawn out, mediocre, masturbatory adjective-slinging, twaddle that my teachers were so fond of.

      Still, Quicksilver was seems worth reading now that I'm a bit over half way through, and I have already ordered "The Confusion".

      I just hope that the Baroque Cycle has an ending so, like "The young lady's primer", it doesn't just come to a screeching halt like a bad B-movie run out of money.

    2. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver by Strange+Ranger · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Cryptonomicon was kind of destined to become a hit. An outstanding writer who is a geek's geek geeking out on top geeky topics.

      The Baroque Cycle seems more like Neal exploring his own niche interests. Alchemy, the history of modern banking, etc. Makes think Neal might have been poking fun at himself with his choice of The Baroque Cycle as the trilogy title.

      Anyway, though not as immediately accessable as Cryptonomicon, it is a fascinating pleasure to experience a writer of Mr. Stephenson's caliber and style work through his own exploration of things that are:
      marked generally by use of complex forms, bold ornamentation, and the juxtaposition of contrasting elements often conveying a sense of drama, movement, and tension 2 : characterized by grotesqueness, extravagance, complexity, or flamboyance
      Go Neal. And thanks again!
      --

      Operator, give me the number for 911!
    3. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver by ehiris · · Score: 3, Informative

      Cryptonomicon was awesome. I was able to read it completely and I didn't have many problems understanding it.
      Quicksilver is awful considering I'm a non-native English speaker. I had to look up almost every other word. It is no fun reading it that way. I wasn't even able to finish the first chapter.

    4. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver by John+Harrison · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Neal's books don't end. They accelerate. Allow me to explain. Snowcrash, The Diamond Age, and Cryptonomicon all begin with very detailed explainations of the technology that the plot hinges on. Stephenson is actually pretty good at making this interesting, and he puts plenty of plot in while he does it.

      Once the tech is explained the story starts to move faster. It is as if the story is passing through Stephenson's mind faster and he isn't able to type fast enough to keep up. So as it accelerates the details that make it to the page are more and more sparse until there are no details or explainations left. That is when the book is over, since there is nothing to print on the next page as the pace of the book approaches infinity and he simply can type anything.

      Quicksilver seems to break the mold. It doesn't get faster and in fact just gets harder and harder to read. The pace at which I could read it got slower and slower until I was unable to read any more of it. I stopped (well, the velocity of my reading reached zero) about 300 pages from the end. This from a person that read Cryptonomicon in two sittings.

    5. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver by jpetts · · Score: 2, Funny

      kind of drawn out, mediocre, masturbatory adjective-slinging, twaddle that my teachers were so fond of.

      Please tell me you're being ironical here...

      --
      Call me old fashioned, but I like a dump to be as memorable as it is devastating - Bender
    6. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver by drinkypoo · · Score: 2, Informative
      These books are for people who like to read, who are amused by the English language and what Americans have done to it, and who find Stephenson to be a fount of wit. All of his books to date have been like this (with the possible exception of those written under a pen name, they were a little different) so it really shouldn't surprise anyone.

      Also, the point I originally wanted to make is that it helps if you read quickly. They put me (and a couple of the other GATE students) in front of a speed reading machine in the library of my grammar school for a couple years in a row, meeting approximately once a week, and as a result I have been ruined for most fiction because I can read the average novel in about two to four hours. If I'm seriously bored I can read a trilogy of thick like the lord of the rings in a weekend without any trouble. I've read Stephen King's The Stand in one day, the unabridged version mind you. So for me, even slow-paced books (with exceptions such as Clavell's Shogun, which is so slow I could write a book faster than I can read that one) play out rapidly, like a movie. Hence, I usually don't have time to get bored.

      Finally, I found all of the characters (in Quicksilver) interesting enough to follow, and the prose entertaining to read. The books are full of clever people saying clever things which tends to keep me going. If the remaining books are similar, I'm sure I'll be drawn in. Time to go order yet another hardcover...

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    7. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver by Strange+Ranger · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Each to their own I guess. I like him partly because of the stuff you don't like. Things I know he relates in a humorous way, things I don't (bletchley park, etc etc) he makes fascinating. He bridges gaps for many who aren't the "digerati" that we profess to be. But the best part is none of that, nor the endings, nor the ideas, but the angle from which he explores those ideas, his turn of phrase, etc. Hmmmm... maybe his sense of humor is the key. He makes digging a mine shaft fun and interesting. I thing he could write a Star Office training manual that would make learning it a total hoot. And it would still be greatly enjoyed by those who know Star Office well. YMMV obviously.

      --

      Operator, give me the number for 911!
    8. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver by uradu · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well, I got bored half-way through your second paragraph. Not enough character development.

    9. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver by Cpt_Kirks · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you love history, you should like Quicksilver.

      It's not a light read. It helps to google some of the personalities to know who he's writing about.

      I loved Quicksilver. I was just thinking that the next book won't be out for a while (Neal seems to write slowly). This made my day!

  3. Stephen King usurped! by emtechs · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Anyone know if he actually wrote the three books in under a year? After Robert Jordan I've tried to avoid starting series that may never end...

    Maybe it was a Kill Bill style 'why not make them buy it three times?' marketing move.

    1. Re:Stephen King usurped! by disappear · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It took him five years to write three books --- well, that's the time since Cryptonomicon was released. So, even with a year for book touring and preliminaries, it was four years. The reason that the trilogy is being published as three separate books rather than one long one: page counts. The first volume is 900 pages, the second is 800, and the third is somewhere about the same length, I've heard.

    2. Re:Stephen King usurped! by denisonbigred · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In a word: No. He took 4 or 5 years to write them and was slowed by the fact that he wrote them entirely with a fountain pen (No, Really).

      --

      "There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals."
    3. Re:Stephen King usurped! by majestyk2000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "After Robert Jordan I've tried to avoid starting series that may never end..."

      Amen to that. I once was quoted as saying Robert Jordan was the best modern fantasy writer in my humble opinion, but I have to say that the last installment of the Wheel of Time series was the first 500+ page book I'd read in which absolutely nothing happened. After I got done with it, I had to acknowledge that there was no plot continuance in the entire book. Everyone stayed where they were doing what they'd been doing in the previous book, and Rand himself showed up for about 20 pages. I am certain that when the next book comes out, one would be able to skip the most recent installment completely and carry on just fine.

  4. Opportunity for profit by product+byproduct · · Score: 5, Funny

    Easy way to make cash if you're Cowboy Neal:

    - Write a book titled "Stephenson".
    - The book cover should say in big letters:

    Cowboy
    Neal
    Stephenson

    - Cash in on people who think this is "Cowboy" from Neal Stephenson.

  5. Re:Im must be out of the loop by Punscho · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because Stephenson writes books about nerds.

  6. Re:Still haven't finished Quicksilver by squidfood · · Score: 5, Informative
    When I got Cryptonomicon, I put off reading that until I had a 15 hour flight. I got through the bulk of it in the 30 hour round trip.

    I took Quicksilver on a 12-hour flight, and at hour 4 I was fervently praying for it to alchemize into a different book.

    One the way back I bought three Terry Pratchetts in the airport instead.

  7. Re:Why I didn't like Cryptonomicon or Quicksilver by disappear · · Score: 3, Informative

    In The Confusion, Newton's homosexuality becomes a plot point.

  8. book reviews, not links to book reviews by sdedeo · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I thought the tradition for book reviews was for slashdot contributors to post their own, here. It would be disappointing if we forewent this to just post a link to somewhere else.

    Slashdot has a lot of interesting readers who, because they aren't tied up in the mostly non-functional reviewing world, can contribute interesting takes on whatever's come out. Online and off, most of the book reviews are either LCD "here is a book about stuff neither of us understand", or unmitigated love-ins where authors review each other in a mutual backscratch.

    I would hate to see people stop writing reviews for first post on slashdot, and I would hate to see slashdot stop supporting its own review culture.

    --
    Protect your liberties. Donate to the ACLU
    1. Re:book reviews, not links to book reviews by sdedeo · · Score: 2, Interesting
      So bully to the publishers, I say! I'd much rather wait a week (or more) for a long-form, considered and balanced review.

      This is one of the ways publishers maintain a lock on intellectual culture. The last time I reviewed a book (in a small, but influential journal), I walked into my local university bookstore and lots of hell broke loose. I got plenty of compliments as well, but it was interesting to note that the same people who frowned at me for criticising their friend were also in control of either the distribution of review copies, or the management of the book review section.

      If I have a choice between trolls and backscratchers, I'll take the trolls with a side of relish please. Slashdot has a great thing going with their book reviews, but if people notice that Slashdot is "scooping" them by publishing insider accounts, or ignoring their labor in favour of linking to an outside newspaper, they will eventually get bored and tired and stop writing.

      --
      Protect your liberties. Donate to the ACLU
    2. Re:book reviews, not links to book reviews by himself · · Score: 2, Interesting

      >
      > I'd much rather wait a week (or more) for a long-form, considered and balanced review
      >
      Well, speaking as a former book store employee and a lifelong book-lover, I agree.
      However, the story here (as I submitted it, too!) is that the book is on shelves today. I fully expect original reviews to be posted over the next few days -- but how will folks know to go get the book if we don't tell 'em it's for sale?
      >
      > Slashdot has a great thing going with their book reviews..
      >
      Again, I agree.
      >
      > ...but if people notice that Slashdot is "scooping" them
      > by publishing insider accounts, or ignoring their labor in
      > favour of linking to an outside newspaper, they will eventually
      > get bored and tired and stop writing.
      >
      Then let's incentivize them! Get reviewer's credentials from the *ahem* Editors here and then pry a review copy out of Harper Collins which the reviewer is traditionally allowed to keep.
      (Say, there's an idea for the next Stephenson book in the trilogy...)

  9. trilogy and endings by svallarian · · Score: 4, Funny

    Well, i guess since it's a trilogy, this will actually give stephenson an excuse for a book to not have an ending.

    Steven V.

    --
    I patented screwing your mom. But it got revoked for "prior art."
    1. Re:trilogy and endings by jonskerr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why are so many people here so thick? All these endings are proper endings to where the book/characters are going. The end of the Diamond Age is the point where the three main characters resolve their initial dilemmas: Nell solves the puzzles of the Primer (becomes an adult etc), Miranda meets her 'daughter' Nell, and Hackworth/the Artifex creates the new nanotech "Seed Technology", (though there's a slight delay due to Nell rescuing Miranda).

      The ending of Cryptonomicon was even a pat ending: Randy's company gets the gold, and Randy and Amy live happily ever after (though there's certainly room for more adventures).

      --
      O~ Him that studies revenge keeps his own wounds green. -- Francis Bacon
  10. I like Stephenson, BUT by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The boy is in need of a good editor. His 1000 page books are more like 500 page books with lots of flab.

    And the endings... they're usually so awful that I can almost feel the author cringing as he types. Its like he runs out of steam and then can't figure out an ending, so he says "oh, the diesel fuel burns and melts the gold". Its a total surrender to laziness.

    Maybe if he cut out the description of dive tables he could muster up the energy for a good ending.

  11. The problem with Stephenson is male-female dialog by Nakito · · Score: 4, Funny

    Stephenson makes great use of speculative history. He postulates some great "what if" scenarios arising from past events and uses them to weave an alternative present. He always succeeds in grabbing my attention. And then -- and then his male protagonist tries to talk to a woman. And that is where his novels fall apart. His dialog does not ring true. Every conversation sounds contrived. I think it's supposed to be banter, but it's just stilted. Is it any wonder he chose the name "Eliza" for the female protagonist in Quicksilver?

  12. Why mention it at all? by exp(pi*sqrt(163)) · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You're being completely disingenuous. It's a complete myth that everything in a novel needs to play a part in the 'story'. One could just as easily ask the question "why are you mentioning homosexuality when the books contain all sorts of othe rmaterial that aren't crucial to the story?". But that's an easy one to answer, you have a homophobia problem.

    --
    Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
  13. Suprised.... by VeeCee · · Score: 4, Interesting

    That more people didn't like Quicksilver. I thought it was excellent and am really looking forward to reading the Confusion. Since I don't know much about European history, the history itself made the book very interesting.

  14. Confusion ? by Jesrad · · Score: 2, Funny

    The Confusion is out ? Well, then, Hail Eris ! Or something...

    --
    Maybe we deserve this world ?
  15. Intro to Neal by The-Dalai-LLama · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've seen a number of posters commenting on the weightiness of Cryptonomicon and Quicksilver (which I have yet to read).

    If you are not familiar with Stephenson and want a brief introduction, I recommend Zodiac. It's a quick, entertaining page-turner that can be read in one sitting but still gives you a pretty good feel for his writing.

    Sort of like Neal Stephenson Lite

    The Dalai Llama
    ... absolutely loved Interface and didn't find out Stephenson wrote it until a month ago on /. ...

  16. The Neal Stephenson mini-HOWTO by Onan+The+Librarian · · Score: 4, Informative

    I'm assuming you mean you don't know who Neal Stephenson is, and/or why his work should be interesting to /. readers. His famous Snow Crash is a novel with about half its storyline taking place in a higher-tech cyberspace. Various other NS works and activities put him on /. readership radar, including his non-fiction "In The Beginning Was The Command-line..." (in which he espouses Linux with the memorable analogy with the Hole Hawg) and his novels dealing with the favorite post-cyberpunk theme of The Impact of Technology on Society (tm). I'm a fan, have read most of the novels, and even got all the way through QuickSilver. If any of this interests you, I'd recommend starting with Snow Crash for the fiction, and I think you can find some of his non-fiction on the Web. Btw, his Cryptonomicon was "echt geek", with a pretty good story and another memorable character (Bobby Shaftoe).

  17. Visit Neal Stephenson on the web at: by trickofperspective · · Score: 4, Informative

    A somewhat more focused website than the link provided above (which essentially just recreates the wikipedia with references to the events of Stephenson's books).

  18. It's called fleshing out a character by gclef · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Writers are *supposed* to do this. Adding character traits (or, in this case, talking about real ones for real people) makes characters more "human", and more accessible. If your characters are nothing but foils for the plot, you end up with something like "Atlas Shrugged." Whatever you may think of the politics in Atlas Shrugged, the characters are painfully two-dimensional, and a beautiful example of how *not* to do character development. The point of adding extra details (like Randy's cereal-eating habits, or Turing's homosexuality) about a character is to make them closer to a living being.

  19. Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver, & the downward spi by drdread · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Snowcrash, IMO, was one of the great works of our time. The same can not be said of Cryptonomicon or Quicksilver. Cryptonomicon suffered from endless diversions from the story, and the end was like the end of Monty Python & the Holy Grail or Matrix: Revolutions or so many other stories where the author did not have a start-to-finish vision of how the story would unfold. That is, the story just ended, with little meat or satisfaction for the reader.

    Quicksilver, honestly, was a burden to read. The story had its moments, but when you're 700 pages into a book and have little or no idea where it's going and little or no motivation to keep reading, I submit that the author has basically failed. I frequently felt like the author was writing just to "hear himself type." I'll probably read The Confusion just because I hate to leave thing unfinished, but if it's similarly burdensome, I think I'll just have to give up on Stephenson altogether.

    To the commenter who asked why Stephenson features gay characters and their homosexuality so prominently, all I can tell you is that Turing was, in fact, gay, and it was a major issue for him and for the people who worked around him. It's not surprising to me that any story on cryptography would feature Turing and his homosexuality. I can't say as much about Newton simply because I'm only familiar with the history of his work rather than the history of the man.

    Who ever said Stephenson needs an editor is right on. Quicksilver is a 300 or 400 page story told in 900 pages. Keeping the length down would do a great service towards making the thing more interesting and readable. But somehow I suspect that neither of these issues are high on Stephenson's list. :(

  20. Re:did Quicksilver have a plot? by flanksteak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Exactly! As entertaining as parts of Quicksilver were, nothing really happened. It read as if it were a 1000-page prologue. Does the story begin in the Confusion? I hope so. I probably will read it, but I won't run to the bookstore today like I did when Quicksilver came out.

  21. Turing -- persecuted because of his sexuality by sdedeo · · Score: 4, Informative
    The weird ickyness kind of pervades your post here, but the ordinary viewer might be interested to know that Turing was hounded by the British government because of his sexuality, and forced to undergo weird pseudoscience injections of estrogen.

    If that isn't a creepy tragedy that inspires sympathy (and also a fascinating story), I don't know what is. Scientist saves country, is slightly off-beat, is forced into suicidal depression by same government because of said off-beatness.

    Meanwhile, if you want to watch persecuted Christian characters, why not go with the other fifty million people and watch Mel Gibson's film?

    --
    Protect your liberties. Donate to the ACLU
  22. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver, & the downward by TwistedGreen · · Score: 4, Funny

    I frequently felt like the author was writing just to "hear himself type."

    Actually, Quicksilver was written with a pen and paper.

    Maybe it's an ink company conspiracy.

  23. Re:Why I didn't like Cryptonomicon or Quicksilver by Xeger · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Given that Daniel Waterhouse's Puritan upbringing and steadfast devoutness in the face of his peers' all-but-secularism is one of the defining aspects of his personality, I would say that Stephenson does a rather fair job of doting on Christianity.

    Compared to speculations about Newton's sexuality (which are limited to a few vague hints scattered throughout the book), Waterhouse's faith virtually drives the plot. His mentor is a bishop who believes that the established church is heresy -- that one should be free to worship as he sees fit, unhampered by politics. Many of Waterhouse's misadventures are due to his similar beliefs. Most characters in Quicksilver are devout Christians, even some of the homosexuals (viz Leibniz).

    If you read Stephenson's earlier work, you'll see a repeated theme of tolerant, unperturbed spirituality in his stronger characters. Juanita from Snow Crash is a devout Catholic -- she shuns organized religion because she believes most of it is politicized claptrap designed to control the masses -- but she is Christian nonetheless. She and her unswerving faith ultimately play a principal role in the book.

    If Stephenson goes out of his way to illustrate Turing's homosexuality, or Newton's probable bisexuality, it is merely to shed more light on areas of human experience that have been ignored by history.

    For 2,000 years, Christians have had a rich mythology that teaches them valuable lessons on life and gives them a slew of inspiring role-models. For 1,500 years, Christianity has been the accepted "normal" religion throughout most of the developed world; often it is even sanctioned as the state religion. Until very recently, Christians have been constantly reinforced by unanimous, positive feedback from the community, the state and the church that yes, they are good and right and are going to Heaven.

    In the same time period, homosexuals have had little or no public acknowledgement of their existence: no role models, and certainly no acceptance from society. In several places and times during the past thousand years, homosexuals have been tormented, imprisoned, tortured and murdered merely for being who they are. Christians had to endure this suffering at first, but by the time of the Spanish Inquisition it was Christians doing the burning and torturing.

    I live in southern California, in a city whose populace largely identify themselves as liberals. Just the same, not 18 months ago, a gay man in my neighborhood was doused in gasoline burned alive as he slept by a Catholic man who had befriended my neighbor before discovering his sexuality. Bigotry, hate and intolerance toward homosexuals are very much alive today, and much of it comes from people who call themselves "good" Christians.

    In summary: if Stephenson chooses to showcase homosexuality slightly more than Christianity, perhaps he's merely acknowledging the fact that Christianity has already been showcased enough.

  24. Re:Why I didn't like Cryptonomicon or Quicksilver by fbform · · Score: 3, Interesting


    "I realize that my views are probably in the minority here, but techno-fiction appeals to more than just liberal readers, and I wish Stephenson would realize that."

    Funny. I'd have thought Stephenson would have annoyed more liberals than conservatives with this passage from Chapter 65:

    To translate it into UNIX system administration terms (Randy's fundamental metaphor for just about everything), the post-modern, politically correct atheists were like people who had suddenly found themselves in charge of a big and unfathomably complex computer system (viz, society) with no documentation or instructions of any kind, and so whose only way to keep the thing running was to invent and enforce certain rules with a kind of neo-Puritanical rigor, because they were at a loss to deal with any deviations from what they saw as the norm. Whereas people who were wired into a church were like UNIX system administrators who, while they might not understand everything, at least had some documentation, some FAQs and How-tos and README files, providing some guidance on what to do when things got out of whack. They were, in other words, capable of displaying adaptability.

    One would think he is pushing his own brand of Church philosophy here. Or is he merely putting himself in the shoes of Randy Waterhouse?

    --
    Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
  25. Re:Why I didn't like Cryptonomicon or Quicksilver by LMCBoy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why, exactly, do you care if a character in a novel is portrayed as a homosexual? Does it offend your sensibilities to know that such people exist? Why? I think you are reading your bible a little too selectively; try to find that part about "judge not, lest ye be judged", and "do unto others...".

    To say that Stephenson "advertises" for homosexuality is a gross mischaracterization. Turing was, in fact, a homosexual, a fact which turned the life of this brilliant man (the man who contributed more to the defeat of the Nazis than any other individual), into a sorrowful tragedy for which the British government ought to be eternally ashamed of itself. Alan Turing was a Hero. He was also gay.

    And since you say that Stephenson doesn't pay similar attention to Christian characters, I guess you didn't actually *read* Quicksilver, did you? If you had, you would of course know that the central character (Daniel Waterhouse) was not only a Christian, his religion (and that of his family) plays a central role in the events of the book. Not that an author has any obligation to you or anyone else to maintain some kind of ridiculous "equal time" balance in the sociopolitical aspects of its characters.

    And what does being liberal or conservative have to do with one's ability to accept a homosexual character in a novel? I doubt that all conservatives are as ignorant and intolerant as you are. I find it totally absurd that you regard the presence of a homosexual character as a "political" statement.

    --
    Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
  26. Just don't read Snowcrash by aeoo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I read Snowcrash as my first Neal Stephenson book. So I expected all his books to be like that. Wrong! Snowcrash is good but I hate everything else he writes. It is mind bogglingly boring and I don't think he has any insight whatsoever into relationships.

    Why do people like stuff like Cryptonomicon? I've read a hundred pages or so and I just couldn't take it. What's so exciting about Shaftoe? Who cares about riding on a ship? War? There is no action, no insight, no perspective, no intrigue, nothing. I mean, it's like pages and pages of nothing and nothing and nothing. Nothing happens. Characters are boring, average, shallow and do not do anything interesting. I mean, why don't I just put a web cam on a bus stop? Because it would be about as insightful and as exciting as any of Stephenson's books. I don't understand.

    What is exciting about these books? Is there some depth that I don't see? It's no Dune, that's for sure. Stephenson has no spiritual insight. So what is it?

    Even reading highly modded up posts here just blows me away!! Some guy read 300 pages that he thought were mediocre in order to get to the good parts!?!? You guys are crazy? Are you sure you're not reading the book because "Neal is cool" in the nerd culture? How can anyone stomach 300 pages of mundane mediocrity to get to the "good parts" later? I don't understand. I mean, even Neal's fans think he sucks. It's in plain sight here on Slashdot.

    I don't get it. :)

    1. Re:Just don't read Snowcrash by Scrameustache · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I've read a hundred pages or so (...) What's so exciting about Shaftoe?

      2 words: Giant Lizard.

      I don't get it.

      I know ;-)

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    2. Re:Just don't read Snowcrash by himself · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >
      > Why do people like stuff like Cryptonomicon? I've read a hundred pages or so and I just couldn't take it.
      >
      Because he gets so much of it *right*, and he "wastes" all that on the background. Research that some writers would do for a non-fiction book or article, Stephenson just hoses around his novels for effect, for atmosphere, and for authenticity. It's the sheer profligacy that brings such a stupid grin to my face.
      I read _Cryptonomicon_ when it came out, and I liked it...but I wondered at the veracity of all the code-breaking stuff and simply threw up my hands in the face of the details about WWII history.
      Fast forward to three years later, and I have recently wrapped up a seventy-page history on my grandfather's WWII service in the Southwest Pacific (viz., Leyte, Palawan, and Morotai) as an intelligence evaluation officer. I went back and re-read _Cryptonomicon_ and I see that prety much every detail of the code-breaking techniques and history that Stephenson uses [as background!] is accurate.
      Sure, the broad plot device of the submarine full of gold may be made up (and Qwlghm is fake and the cave must be hokum) -- but given the rate at which FOIA requests are processed and things are declassified from that era, it may yet turn out to be true. :7)
      Now, when I know for a fact that Stephenson gets that much right in one book, and then I consider the fictional details he also "got right" (if only consistently, however implausibly) in _Snowcrash_ and _The Diamond Age_, I'll buy anything this guy wrote. The quality of the work he produces should put a burning blush of shame on the cheeks of whoever wrote 95% of the stuff published this year.
      And I'm an English major, not some CS dork, so typos and all, I have a sheepskin that says my opinion on books counts extra.

  27. Re:Why I didn't like Cryptonomicon or Quicksilver by Scrameustache · · Score: 3, Informative

    MILD SPOILER WARNINGS

    BEWARE


    Both books feature sympathetic and heroic characters (Isaac Newton and Alan Turing) that are homosexuals (although I think Stephenson is speculating about Newton.) However, their homosexuality has nothing to do with the story. Why mention it at all?
    Instead, Stephenson goes out of his way to talk about it, especially in the case of Turing. If Stephenson doesn't have a personal issue with "gay" people, fine, but he doesn't have to turn his books into an advertisement for homosexuality. I notice that he doesn't lavish similar praise and attention on Christian characters.


    Turing makes a pass at a character, and then has a fight with his ex. That's pretty much all I remember about his sex life.

    Newton is girly, and teased a young boy for being girly, and then its assumed (wrongly) that his best friend and concerned roomate was his lover, and he has secret meetings with this other gay character.
    The book is, what, 800, 900 pages long?

    Yeah...that was such an advertisement for homosexuality! Sheesh...
    You didn't like it because you want homo characters to be either not in there at all, or punished for their sins. Fine, let the rest of us read books and not care about wether some character is gay or not.

    P.S. Whatever you do, don't read American Gods by Neil Gaiman.

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  28. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver, & the downward by mrawl · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Completely agree. Snowcrash was brilliant. Hilarious, scary, insightful, new, fresh, amazing. Cryptonomicon was good, but not as good (what's with Enoch Root - he Stephenson's Ellsworth Toohey?) and Quicksilver is just a complete yawn. I'm at about p 250 and had to divert to Dan Brown before I passed out with boredom. It does show some flashes of Stephenson's brilliance, but only rarely. I'm praying it gets better, if it doesn't pick up I'm gonna have to bail on the whole series.

  29. Ho hum. by Anonymous+Meoward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'll have to chime in as well, since I just finished Quicksilver myself.

    Christ, what a tedious read. It was one of the worst Xmas presents I ever received. (Yeah, it took me this long to slog through it.)

    I got the feeling throughout the whole book that Stephenson was writing to impress himself. The interesting moments and plot points were drowned out by relentless pedantry. (Quick, raise your hand if you finished the book, and you really wanted to get Daniel Waterhouse off that damned ship for the first 200 pages. Arrrrrrrrgh!)

    And Stephenson's tendency to ramble.. and ramble.. and ramble.. has finally caught up with him.

    I was disappointed to say the least; I expected better. Sigh.


    --
    --- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
  30. Re:The problem with Stephenson is male-female dial by Scrameustache · · Score: 3, Insightful

    and then his male protagonist tries to talk to a woman. And that is where his novels fall apart. His dialog does not ring true. Every conversation sounds contrived.

    Well, he writes geeks talking to hot girls...of COURSE the conversations sound contrived! ;-)

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  31. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver, & the downward by sketi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Snow Crash was a damn fine book, but as far as I'm concerned, Cryptonomicon is hands down Stephenson's best. 've never understood the complaints about Stephenson's endings, though. When the story's over, the book ends. That's the way it should be. I hate spending the last 50 pages of a book building up to some "satisfying" conclusion where everything gets tied up neatly into a perfect little Hollywood package.

    As for the length, if an editor had cut 300 pages from Cryptonomicon, it would have completely castrated the story. Quicksilver's about twice as long as it needs to be, but if forcing myself through 900 pages of Quicksilver is the price I have to pay for an intact Cryptonomicon, then so be it.

  32. Book needs an editor? Wait for the book-on-tape by Stroman+Rebar · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The great thing about abridged books is that it really forces a long-winded author to get off his cliche and tell the story. So, with a 900 page book, you can cut it down to a "reasonable" 8 hours of tape. Long-winded tomes are about the only time I recommend abridgements, though. While it is possible to cut a 300 page novel down to a 3 hour cassette, IMHO there usually isn't enough left to trouble yourself with. And just as a point of reference, I have greatly enjoyed most of Stephenson's work, but the first half of Quicksilver did not flow like its namesake. The middle half did pick up considerably with the introduction of the Shaftoe brothers. So I will give it a try.

  33. Re:Why I didn't like Cryptonomicon or Quicksilver by decapentaplegic · · Score: 5, Funny
    If Stephenson doesn't have a personal issue with "gay" people, fine, but he doesn't have to turn his books into an advertisement for homosexuality.
    Man, you said it. It's about time people writing so called "literature" quit wasting my time with junk like character development and multiple layers of contextual meaning. And authors who use so-called art to present their views of the world? What a yawner!

    And I totally agree on how his books overdo the sexuality politics. I mean do you know how much effort was wasted pushing the heterosexual agenda in Cryptonomicon? Page after page of "Randy" getting worked up over some chick in a wetsuit. And that WAY too descriptive het-sex in the car scene. Imperial Pint?!? YUCK! Too much information!

    I sure as hell don't want to have to think too hard about why they do stuff. Just hurry up and get to the good parts where they wire routers and blow stuff up.
  34. Re:The problem with Stephenson is male-female dial by Anonymous+Cow+herd · · Score: 5, Funny

    What about eliza made you feel supposed to be banter?

    --
    Ita erat quando hic adveni.
  35. Stepheson is an EMACS user? by harmonics · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Ok, so now all the rambling, inconsistency, and bloatware feel makes sense..

    - excerpt from an Amazon.com interview with Neal Stephenson available here.

    "for instance, there might be one person who gets the job of looking after EMACS"

    Neal, Neal, Neal.. vi buddy, trust us.

    0h

  36. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver, & the downward by cbiffle · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One of the things Newton prided himself on was his virginity. Despite being married, he claimed to be a virgin up until his death.

    I can see a few options for this.
    1. Being the ubergeek of his time, he simply couldn't get laid.
    2. He was lying.
    3. He was confused as to what 'virgin' meant.
    4. He was gay.

    Now, I should mention that, for #4 to hold true, he'd either have had to not act on his impulses, or to have defined sex as being between a man and a woman. I think the latter's probably quite likely.

    So depicting Newton as gay, while potentially controversial, isn't entirely improbable.

  37. Metaweb by Bullet-Dodger · · Score: 5, Informative

    Didn't see it mentioned so, The Metaweb is Stephenson's wiki about Quicksilver (presumably information on the rest of the trilogy will be added). It's very interesting, has all kinds of information on the people and ideas in the book. Especially the annotations, add a lot of interesting background and details.

    1. Re:Metaweb by Bullet-Dodger · · Score: 2, Funny

      Dear lord, I've been modded up for mistakenly repeating something from the post. Well, as long I have this chance I'd like a pony too. I'll name her princess and I'll ride her every day!

  38. Re:Newton was not homosexual by Xeger · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Newton was not a homosexual, I agree.

    By the same token -- the careful consideration of historical evidence -- I must *disagree* with your statement about Shakespeare. William Shakespeare was almost certainly bisexual with a strong preference toward women. Consider that several of his sonnets are dedicated to a "Mr. W.H." and that his plays are rife with suggestive comments that, even if they give no information about the playwrite's sexuality, certainly suggest a familiarity with, and acceptance of, the idea of affection and sex between two males.

    You and I agree that the homosexual lobby tends to paint history pink, using great strokes of its broad brush to imply that everyone from Alexander the Great to J. Edgar Hoover was a mincing namby-pamby. You and I agree that they often arrive at incorrect conclusions -- the simple fact is that most people always have been and always will be straight, irrespective of how "politically correct" that notion is.

    As much as I agree with you, I still take exception to your post because you sound like an ignorant homophobe. You seem fixated on the belief that incorrectly identifying a historical figure as homosexual somehow is some sort of smear on his reputation. To me, that suggests some very narrow thinking on your part.

    I am white, with Aryan features. If someone walked up to me on the street and called me a nigger, I would certainly laugh due to their making an obvious factual error -- but I would not be ashamed. My reputation would not be destroyed. For me, there is no shame associated with being gay or black or Communist or vegetarian. If you think differently, then I suggest you reevaluate your thinking.

  39. Re:Why I didn't like Cryptonomicon or Quicksilver by Bullet-Dodger · · Score: 5, Funny

    I've read both of these books and (nominally) enjoyed them as far as the story was concerned, but on the whole, both of them left a bad taste in my mouth because of Stephenson's inability to tell a story without injecting his own political viewpoint into it. Take for example heterosexuality. Both books feature sympathetic and heroic characters (Jack Shaftoe and Bobby Shaftoe) that are heterosexuals. However, their heterosexuality has nothing to do with the story. Why mention it at all? I mean, Bobby sleeps with two different women in the book! Stephenson is obviously hitting out over the head with his pro-heterosexual agenda. Why can't we just have good old fashion books about upstanding Christians of undisclosed sexuality?

  40. NYT Bestsellers appeal to more than 20-somethings by jonskerr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    >It was destined to become a hit among twenty-something geeks who live in Silicon Valley and have no life outside of their job.

    Considering how many people bought this book, your argument about who it appeals to holds as little water as your arguements about the writing. Sorry you didn't enjoy it; Clearly it was NOT written for 20-something geeks or he wouldn't have put in the exposition you found so painful. I don't know shit about Linux and found the whole book to be a fascinating techno-thriller on one hand and a great adventure story on the other. Can't wait to read the Baroque.

    --
    O~ Him that studies revenge keeps his own wounds green. -- Francis Bacon
  41. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver, & the downward by Witchblade · · Score: 2, Informative
    One of the things Newton prided himself on was his virginity. Despite being married, he claimed to be a virgin up until his death. I can see a few options for this. 1. Being the ubergeek of his time, he simply couldn't get laid. 2. He was lying. 3. He was confused as to what 'virgin' meant. 4. He was gay. Now, I should mention that, for #4 to hold true, he'd either have had to not act on his impulses, or to have defined sex as being between a man and a woman. I think the latter's probably quite likely. So depicting Newton as gay, while potentially controversial, isn't entirely improbable.

    I don't have a history book in front of me, but to the best of my knowledge Newton never married. I think he mayhave proposed to a woman once, but was rejected. I think the evidence comes from one letter that isn't really clear.

    Newton had several roommates, all young men except for late in his life he took in his niece. Many accounts by others from that time seem to strongly imply that there were romantic relationships between Newton and one or two men, but most likely he did maintain his virginity until he died. Although the suggestion that he strictly regarded that as being between a man and a woman sounds very probable, also.

    If someone can recall more details, or better yet has a reliable biography handy please post. But I'm pretty damn certain Sir Isaac never had a Lady Newton.

  42. Re:Cryptonomicon, Quicksilver, & the downward by C.Batt · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Man, Digital Fortress was his first novel. It's FULL of errors of all sorts, not just laughable technical research (it's almost as bad as "The 'Net"). I've read three of his books and the newer they are, the better they are. However, I've read his books in reverse chronological order, which happened to also mean reading the best books first. Had I read Digital Fortress first, I'd label him "king-of-hacks".

    --
    -- All views expressed in this post are mine and do not
    -- reflect those of my employer or their clients
  43. Information by DrJAKing · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's a common thread running through all Stephenson's books, a fascination with the history of information and how processing it has affected the development of human society and culture, from prehistory to the imaginable future. This is why he appeals so much to many geeks. Since Snowcrash, his breakthrough novel, he's been piecing together a remarkable perpective on the very essence of what makes humans special. The extent to which it is sometimes hard going just reflects what a difficult task it is, but the exploration is far-reaching and important. To those who couldn't hack Quicksilver, I say keep at it and instead of thinking of it as an entertainment, use it as a bunch of bookmarks to stuff that you should really know about.

  44. Specific Quicksilver flaws by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Several posters have pointed out some valid flaws in Quicksilver, which overall is not as good as Cryptonomicon. I'll just mention a few specific problems (particularly in comparison to Cryptonom) that haven't been discussed. All of these are more minor complaints than normally deserve mention in a book review:
    • It's part of a series now. A book (or film) in a longer series is weaker in general than a standalone work. The effect is similar to how TV episodes are weaker than movies, because the obligatory continuity between installments weakens the author's freedom for each (He can't convincingly put the hero in danger in volume 2, when part 3 is still coming up).

      Most importantly, the Enoch Root character introduced in Cryptonomicon is now the unifying factor of the Baroque Cycle. Whereas in just one book he could be accepted as a spooky, mysterious character, giving him a blatantly immortal lifespan moves the book more towards fantasy and away from semi-educational speculative history. (The fantastical parts of Crytponomicon, like the vowel-free isle of Qwflgm and the invention of the digital computer in Austrailia, were some of its weaknesses)
    • Written with pen. To "get the feel for the period technology", Quicksilver was written by hand instead of on computer. This has contributed to a less coherent and balanced flow than the predecessor book. I won't go into detail on the many small ways this has harmed the book... I'd need to annotate the text to fully explain.
    • Non-preemptive multitasking. Both Crytponom and QuickSilv contain 3 distinct storylines that become increasingly more related as the plot progresses. In both books, those storylines are "Waterhouse present", "Waterhouse past", and "Shaftoe past". But Cryptonom progressed through each line concurrently, with 5-20 pages of one plot followed by a switch to another, while QuickSilv can go for 300 pages following a single thread. That makes the book much less coherent, and creates a great discontinuity whenever the jump occurs.
    • Self-plagiarizing. That accusation is an exaggeration, I know. But still, both books concern the immortal Enoch Root's explorations into the secrets of national gold reserves, told from 3 threads of activity: Waterhouse the reserved mathematician, Shaftoe the iterinant warrior, and Waterhouse 50-years later (picking up the pieces).

      Retelling the same story in a different era is a sign that an author is out of good ideas. (But hey, Ken Follett retells the same story on the exact same date, and readers keep buying it)
    • Less detailed. Compared to Cryptonom, QuickSilv spends much less verbiage providing background information on the people and places visited. And since QuickSilv is set further back in time, historical detail is even more important. Most readers were passingly familiar with 1999 Seattle, and understand the overall flow of the Second World War. But going back centuries instead of decades, typical readers will have much less idea about what to expect, and so digressive introductions (something that Stephenson apparently enjoys) would've been more helpful to them.

      But unfortunately, the two protagonists (Waterhouse and Shaftoe) are both willfully disconnected from the mainstream of society, and no supporting characters pop up to expound on backdrop factoids.
    • Genetic model of aptitude. A really minor point, but it's unimpressive to see characters from the same families pl
  45. I can't wait to read The Confusion by Admiral1973 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I've devoured and loved all of Stephenson's books. Reading Cryptonomicon was the highlight of the summer of 2000 for me, and Quicksilver kept me entertained throughout the autumn of 2003. I read The Diamond Age on vacation in 2002, and anytime I think of that trip, I think of the book.

    Many posters here have complained about Stephenson's prose: too much detail, not enough character development, and so on. I disagree with all of them. With Stephenson, you get scientific, historical, and technical knowledge along with characters that will grow on you if you let them. I think that by spending so many pages on information, he gives the characters a foundation in their environment. They have a depth that they would lack without the benefit of their surroundings, which are best explained the way he does it.

    Another thing I love about his books, but especially Quicksilver, is the mixture of fictional characters and real people. The political intrigue of England in the 1680s was fascinating to me, as I'm a big fan of English history. I knew little about the people of that era before I read the book, but now I've sought out other materials on the time period and I'm looking forward to learning more. I've been to London several times, and I enjoyed picturing the city as it looked 320 years ago.

    I do agree with those who say that his recent books have been too long, but not with their reasons. I take the subway to work, and I like to read to pass the time. Lugging Quicksilver back and forth to work for two months wasn't much fun. If he'd published the trilogy as a series of 300-page books instead, I'd be happier. But I'll gladly put up with the extra weight to enjoy Stephenson's writings again. You can only read a book for the first time once.

    --
    Lousy minor setbacks! This world sucks! -- Homer Simpson
  46. Released TODAY? by Stormie · · Score: 2, Informative

    I saw it in a bookshop several days ago.. and I'm in Sydney, Australia. I still haven't finished reading Quicksilver though, so I didn't buy it..

  47. Why Neal Stephenson counts by bluetrident · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've mentioned this offhandedly before, but the reason I think that Neal Stephenson is amazing is because of what he is currently doing. He's gone from a 'eco-terrorist' to a cyberpunk writer. Then he took it a step further and became a New York Times Bestselling Author writing straight fiction.

    He's made a transition from scifi to fiction, but carried the tech along with it. 50 years from now, there's only going to be a few authors from this genre (scifi) that will still be read, and I believe that Stephenson will be one of those. He can tell a story, when he gets down to it. Why do people still read Phillip K. Dick? Why are there now movies being made from his stories? Because he can tell a story, in the end. Why is Stephenson still being posted here? Because his stories are good. He might get a bit bogged down in the details, but he's a great storyteller and that's why I'll start 'The Confusion' tomorrow and I can't wait for the 3rd part of trilogy. He's had some time to develop his skill, I'm guessing that the entire trilogy and 'Cryptonomicon' taken as a whole, will tell an entirely diffent story, taken altogether.

    Just my thoughts...

  48. Excellent News by grent246 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When I started reading Quicksilver, I came to the horrible realisation that there were two more of these drawn out historical tomes to be released before the vaguest possibility of a new work of the calibre of Snow Crash or Cryptonomicon.

    With Confusion being released its now only one more to go.

    I am hoping he still has another science fiction masterpiece left after his excursion into the Baroque cycle.