Slashdot Mirror


A Step Closer To The Optimum Solar Cell

An anonymous reader writes "Besides cost, solar cell efficiency is the second most critical criteria. Scientists from Berkeley Lab and other institutions, have announced a new solar cell material that may be able to achieve an extraordinary efficiency of about 50 percent -- twice the amount of the current record holder."

107 comments

  1. This is the last you will hear of this by AtariAmarok · · Score: 3, Funny

    Ah, an efficient solar cell. This is the last you will hear of this! Halliburton and Big Oil will immediately buy the patent and sit on it, just like they did the antigravity saucer, the 300 mph carburetor, cold fusion, and Skynet microchips from the future. Save your cache while you can!

    --
    Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
    1. Re:This is the last you will hear of this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Dude, it's a 300 mpg carburetor.

    2. Re:This is the last you will hear of this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      the 300 mph carburetor

      They already have these. Check out the salt flat races one day. Some go well over 300 mph actually.

    3. Re:This is the last you will hear of this by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

      I hear Gilette has been sitting on the patent for the non-dulling ceramic razor blade for over 30 years! Those evil corporations!

      Actually, to be honest it's probably the Stonecutters! After all, they admitted to stifling the electric car and adoption of the metric system. And we all know that despite his Oscar-worthy performance in "Three Men and a Baby", Steve Guttenberg wouldn't be nearly as popular...

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
    4. Re:This is the last you will hear of this by damien_kane · · Score: 1

      Hey! That's enough badmouthing of the Stonecutters...
      It is a good thing that they keep the Martians under wraps, as I, for one, do not wish to welcome our new Martian overlords...

    5. Re:This is the last you will hear of this by Veramocor · · Score: 2, Funny

      I heard Gilette is sitting on a design for a razor with, get this, 6 blades!!!!

      --
      Veramocor
  2. interesting story, dependance on crystal growth by ubiquitin · · Score: 3, Informative

    In 1999, Walukiewicz and others at Berkeley Lab were working with solar-cell designers at DOE's National Renewable Energy Laboratory, who were trying to build a three-junction cell. The NREL researchers inadvertently created the first photovoltaic semiconductor with a split band gap. But at first they didn't realize it.

    "They needed a new material with a 1-eV band gap and a crystal lattice structure that matched the other layers of the cell," Walukiewicz explains. "They used gallium indium arsenide nitride alloys in which just a little nitrogen could achieve the desired band gap, and an almost perfect lattice match."

    Since the band-gap reduction was unexpected, Walukiewicz set out to find out how it worked. The answer, it developed, was that the few atoms of nitrogen, which are much more electronegative than the host atoms (much more strongly attractive to electrons) produced a narrow energy band of their own, splitting the GaInAs conduction band into two parts. The gap to the lower of the two conduction bands was the desired 1 eV.

    In the case of GaInAs, other characteristics of the split bands made for a poor solar cell material. Nevertheless, Walukiewicz and his colleagues continued to investigate the phenomenon and developed a model of the split-band phenomenon known as "band anticrossing."

    ...

    Yu admits that forming highly mismatched alloys is "challenging from a crystal-growth point of view," but there is hope that crystals can be grown epitaxially (the growth on a crystalline substrate of a crystalline substance that mimics the orientation of the substrate). One good sign, he says, is that Japanese researchers have already grown thick oxygen-doped crystals of a related material, zinc selenium.

    --
    http://tinyurl.com/4ny52
  3. ...when I see it by samael · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I used to jump for joy whenever I saw things like this.

    But experience generally showed that Breakthrough X which would produce cheap power/double battery life/allow 5 terabytes in my computer never actually arrived at the market.

    I'm still waiting for holographic storage from 10 years ago!

    1. Re:...when I see it by gl4ss · · Score: 2, Interesting

      yeah, because you don't use a multi ghz computer, have the possiblity of buying hd's that are hundreds of gb's or use a cellphone that's ridiculously small compared to models available in 80's.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    2. Re:...when I see it by samael · · Score: 2, Interesting

      All of which are incremental changes.

      In my experience things get slowly better - anything promising a vast improvement overnight tends to be a little less likely to appear.

    3. Re:...when I see it by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      those incremental changes wouldn't be possible without those breakthroughs.

      without such breakthroughs cpu speeds would have been limited to the numbers they were in the 80's.

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    4. Re:...when I see it by sadler121 · · Score: 1

      holographic storage???!!???!!
      I'm still waiting for my flying cars that where promised in Back to the Future!! ;-)

    5. Re:...when I see it by julesh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Largley because the incremental process tends to catch up with it before the new idea becomes commercialised.

      That's what happened to all the funky things we tend to hear about. We don't all have massively parallel computers because Intel etc didn't all get stuck at 4-500MHz as was predicted some time in the mid 90s.

      We don't have holographic storage because, quite frankly, it just ain't worth it when magnetic storage can pack hundreds of gigabytes in a device that is, honestly, about as small as you really need it to be.

      If there was a demand for these items, even a perceived one, they'd get produced. But there isn't.

      Now, a 50% solar cell...?

    6. Re:...when I see it by abradsn · · Score: 1

      Why does everyone want a flying car? We already have planes and helicopters. Just use one of those when you want to fly.

    7. Re:...when I see it by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If there was a demand for these items, even a perceived one, they'd get produced. But there isn't.

      Now, a 50% solar cell...?


      While demand in the alternative energy market is iffy right now, you'll definitely have demand for more efficient photovoltaics at _any_ price in the space industry.

      Lifting mass into space is expensive. If you can get a 2-3x improvement in power to weight ratio of your solar arrays using materials like this, the world will beat a path to your door even if you don't have a way to grow it epitaxially.

      As for long-term cost prospects, we're already mass-manufacturing similar highly-mismatched alloys for LEDs (anything with Ga/N/As as constituents, for one), so I'm confident costs will come down eventually.

      Very nifty technology.

  4. No Solar For You! by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The calculated efficiency of a single-junction solar cell made with this material would be a remarkable 57 percent. But while the single-junction architecture is elegantly simple, many questions have to be answered before ZnMnOTe or any of its highly mismatched cousins prove they can do the job.

    So not only does it not work yet, but any article that starts off with the words "besides cost..." is obviously talking about an economic impossibility.

    We're stuck with cheap oil until it runs out in a few decades. And then we're stuck trying to rebuild civilization with coal.

    1. Re:No Solar For You! by Councilor+Hart · · Score: 2, Insightful
      We're stuck with cheap oil until it runs out in a few decades. And then we're stuck trying to rebuild civilization with coal.

      Something wrong with nuclear power?
      The gap between running out of oil and igniting fusion can be filled with fission based reactors.
      Sure, fission-waste is not something you want. But it sure beats the crap out of coal.

    2. Re:No Solar For You! by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Energy expense is the thing. Especially once the cost of mining rises due to the increasing expense of oil. (All that heavy equipment runs on gasoline, not electricity.)

    3. Re:No Solar For You! by thbigr · · Score: 1

      Last report I read on oil reserves and predicted consumption, put the time at 75 years. Things could always change, if say China increases thier consumption.

      --
      Come the revolution, the Bourgeois, Capitalistic, "A PARKING STICKER HOLDERS", will be first against the wall!
    4. Re:No Solar For You! by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 1

      I don't believe that we need to worry about running out of oil any time soon. As oil becomes scarcer, prices will rise and consumption will decrease, that's a fundamental economic law. The real question is when we're going to reach peak oil production. Industry reports seem to be saying 10-30 years for that (it's not at all a certain guess, because they are factoring in things like predicted consumption and predicted discoveries and such). And once peak oil is reached, prices have nowhere to go but up. Whether the tail stretches out 75 years or a couple hundred past that, it won't be pretty.

    5. Re:No Solar For You! by gkelman · · Score: 1

      The real problem is the way oil is collected. In the North sea and other offshore locations, they pump water in and it forces the oil out. Only problem is, this technique (for whatever reasons) only gets about half the oil out. Then they cap it and move on.

      So, solution to world's oil problem: Find a better
      way of getting the oil that is there out. There's
      plenty left.

    6. Re:No Solar For You! by Intrigued · · Score: 1, Insightful
      We won't have to rebuild with coal. They oil companies will reengineer for mining Methane clathrate out of the ocean and buy out the thermal depolymerization industry long before they relenquish to the coal industry.

      Don't underestimate their ego.

    7. Re:No Solar For You! by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 1

      You can be sure that once the price of oil gets high enough, they'll go back for the expensive to extract stuff. Still doesn't get us cheap oil.

    8. Re:No Solar For You! by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      Not all, the large stripminning equiptment is powered by huge power cables pluged into the back.

    9. Re:No Solar For You! by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

      Something wrong with nuclear power?

      Face it, dude. We're fucked. We're fucked in a big way. I don't mean to sound overly pessimistic or anything, but real like completely fucked. Our power infrastructure is goatse.

      Here's the problem. Let's say oil is peaking right now, as Bush's energy advisor has said. So oil production drops, demand continues to grow, and so forth. Let's say the whole process to reach economic bankruptcy when oil becomes too expensive takes, oh, 30 years. Let's just say.

      How long will it take to engineer, license, build, inspect, etc, enough fission plants to fill the gaping hole in our energy infrastructure that oil peaking/loss will leave? 30 years? Less? More? How long? We're talking about building a whole shitload of new plants in a hurry.

      What else we got back there? Wind? Well, we can build wind farms quicker--less regulation, no debate on how clean they are.

      Hydro? Many specialistic requirements, more regulation than wind.

      Solar? Give me a fucking break. I live in Seattle, solar's not a possibility for us, sorry. Maybe given 30 years of hardcore engineering on the problem we can make solar energy a reality in these northern climes. Hell, if we could microwave power from one pole to the other then we could power the southern hemisphere during their winter and they could reciprocate during our winter. Wait, almost nobody (certainly nobody important :P ) lives in the southern hemisphere.

      What's left? It's looking like biodiesel makes a better short-term replacement, since it'll drop-in and replace diesel in a lot of generators, but I really don't know if it's enough. Furthermore, I don't know how quickly we could scale up biodiesel production and still be able to get enough energy out of the system to stem off economic bankruptcy.

      Nope, we're just plain fucked. I'm staking my future on either wind or some new energy source that can be built cheaply and distributed to individuals rather than depend on huge centralized power stations.

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
  5. Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by StateOfTheUnion · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Though a lot of the green crowd have been big proponents of solar cells, solar cells are pretty nasty beasts containing gallium, tellurium, and other heavy metals and nasty components . . . manufactuering them also produces a significant amount of nasty byproducts and waste.

    One things that I've never seen is the lifetime and disposal costs of solar cells . . . that never seems to be factored into the so called "solar renewable energy" equation.

    1. Re:Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by Infinite93 · · Score: 5, Informative
      The last issue of HomePower www.homepower.com contains a list of RE myths 'debunked'.

      The ROI (for retail and manufacture cost) and the Enviromental impact of production is addressed.

      Granted the source is an RE magazine, but they do list references on some of the studies if you want to follow up.

    2. Re:Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by raygundan · · Score: 4, Informative

      The panels you can buy and use for your house today have a 3-4 year energy payoff. (ie, they make an amount of energy equal to what was put in to them in production) They last in the neighborhood of 20-30 years.

      There are some nasty chemicals required for production. The total environmental impact, however, is significantly smaller than obtaining the same lifetime amount of power from any other source available. The waste produced by a similar amount of power from coal, nuclear, gas, etc... over a similar lifetime is significantly larger.

      The pollution only happens once, for 20-30 years worth of power. The pollution from any other option doesn't stop unless you stop using it.

    3. Re:Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But Radiant Heat Solar Powered Stirling Engines are even cleaner! Why can't I buy a Stirling Engine whose heat collector is solar powered?

    4. Re:Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by tordia · · Score: 1

      In production and disposal, though, you're talking about 2 one-time costs. With the other options (oil, coal, nuclear), you're constantly generating pollution during the duration you use that energy source.

      --

      Frogs are primitive animals - so the occasional extra toe is not that unusual. But this is very unusual.

    5. Re:Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      Why don't you make one, but seriously, I bet they won't produce as much power as solar cells for the same area of sunlight.

    6. Re:Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      Actually now that I think about it, Power Plant sized solar energy production is generally done using a mirrors reflecting light to central point super heating something driving turbine method. So basically same thing right, maybe they are practicle but only in larger scale??

    7. Re:Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by ttfkam · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I find it odd that the first page says "Myth: Solar living means sacrificing conveniences," while later on it says, "A PV system provides the required electricity. This type of design is not the norm by far--it's just a little too expensive
      up front for most people--and it might require the owners to put on a sweater indoors a few times a year." Turning up the heat when you're cold is a convenience. Having to put sweaters on, however simple and beneficial a solution it may be, is NOT a convenience. Hint: If you are forced to seek an alternative, it is not as convenient.

      Myth: You can't use solar energy in far northern latitudes.

      When it's sunny, yes, you can use it in northern latitudes. What happens during the rainy season? In many northern states, the rainy season is at least half the year. Go on battery the whole time the sun isn't visible? What happens if (when!) the battery goes dead? Americans used

      And let's discuss cost. The brochure you presented states that costs are so bad. Last I checked, good solar panels for the home were upwards of $30,000. If you are already paying for a new house, the extra cost of setting up solar is marginal. For folks who are just getting by (everyone with kids in college), $30,000 just isn't there. Costs from environmental damage where we don't immediately see the price tag? That's fair. Absolutely that's a fair statement to make. Then again so is saying, "What about the hidden costs of completely ripping out an established infrastructure in favor of a new one?" Isn't that fair too?

      The idea is to minimize the impact of microhydro by following some simple rules. Always leave enough flow in the stream bed for aquatic life. If migratory fish use your stream, make sure that they and their fry can swim past our diversion, and cannot be drawn into the enstock intake. Always put the diverted water back into the same stream bed in a way that does not cause erosion.

      Once again, a fair statement. However how is microhydro going to handle the macro scale when you (a) can't pack them closely together and (b) cannot disrupt the normal activity of the surrounding water? Put more in to get more energy? Remember the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. As it is not created nor destroyed, if you use a sufficient amount of energy in one system, that amount is removed from another system. Environmentally sound? Reducing the energy by a significant amount would be environmentally sound? Most of the world's creatures live at or near a coastline. Carefully consider whether or not you want to mess with this substantially.

      Nukes produce nuclear waste, and even after spending billions of taxpayer and ratepayer dollars, no acceptable disposal solution has been brought to the table.

      This one kills me. First of all, the term "nukes" usually refers to "nuclear weapons." The requirements for nuclear power are dramatically different from those of bombs. You might as well assert that electricity should be banned because electric chairs are made. It has no place in a power generation conversation. Second of all, there are nuclear reactors such as IFR (Integral Fast Reactor) which were designed specifically to address critics' problems with nuclear. It does not rely on coolant, computer control, or human interaction/intervention to prevent accidents; Safety is dependant upon natural phenomena and the laws of physics to operate. The working prototype for IFR conducted a series of tests where coolant was shut off and all of the usual precursors to a meltdown were put into place. No damage. No leakage. Nothing but a safe, controlled shutdown -- without human or computer interaction. This is not hypothetical. This is historical fact. In fact,

      --

      - I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
    8. Re:Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by dan42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The panels you can buy and use for your house today have a 3-4 year energy payoff. (ie, they make an amount of energy equal to what was put in to them in production)
      Which accounts for about half the cost of buying and installing said panels. So you can expect them to pay for themselves in about 8 years - except by then you'll need a new set of batteries. So ~10 years until it starts earning you money.
      In fact I think swapping batteries at least 4 times in 30 years will provide a more significant form of pollution.

    9. Re:Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by gonza · · Score: 1

      The suggestion that solar cells contain a whole heap of nasty components is ridiculous. I work in the solar cell industry, and 99% of commercial solar cells are made from silicon. The same silicon which makes up the chips in your computer (which lasts 3 years). In fact the silicon that is used in solar cells is the seconds material from the IC industry. The remaining parts of these devices inluce glass (mainly silicon also) and some aluminium and silver. Solar cells last in the field as long as they are not broken (typically 30 years or longer). And their disposal cost is minimal compared with any other form of electricity. (To date I'm not sure of any coal fired power station which has actually tried to "dispose" of any of the greenhouse gas waste that it produces!) If you want to talk byproducts, lets look at the CO2 from coal, or the radioactive material from nuclear. There is simply no comparison. Don't hack on solar energy, it'll save this planet we're content on f***king up one day.

    10. Re:Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by Infinite93 · · Score: 1
      I agree that RE in general is not a solve all for the nation's power problems. I am a clean nuclear advocate myself, if not so well informed and well spoken.

      My problem is that most people seem to think that solar panels are trash because they are not anywhere near 100% effecient. Even at today's standards most panels will return their manufacturing energy investment and a users financial investment well before the end of their life.

      In the right application, they are extremely useful. Running a remote pumphouse instead of running copper, backup systems for limited capacity during grid outages(enough to keep the refrigerator and water pump running if you are not on municipal water).

      Granted covering Chicago's rooftops will have limited benefits, but they should not be limited to space or other small scale applications.

      The real issue at hand is the number 3720 Billion kWh. I am not advocating sending us back to frontier days, but simple changes like using compact fluorescents instead of incandecents, and using more effecient appliances will help reduce that number. Again it will not be enough to solve all of our problems, but a combination of more efficient use of the energy we produce(how much are we wasting in transmitting it hundreds of miles across power lines?), intelligent management of the nuclear, fossil fuel, and RE resources available will go a long way.

    11. Re:Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by ttfkam · · Score: 1

      You are of course correct. And while I have come across as quite strident in my views, I am actually an advocate for solar, wind, and to a limited extend tidal. Our energy shouldn't come from just one source.

      I am however utterly convinced that coal, oil, and natural gas should not be energy sources we fall back upon. (Note: 51% of today's power generation is from coal.)

      My only other comment on this is that switching infrastructures -- such as widespread adoption of home solar panels -- will not be a quick endevour even if the political will were there. People are stubborn. Americans many times doubly so. Most people have always received power from their local power company. Switching the mental paradigm will probably take longer than switching the technology.

      --

      - I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
    12. Re:Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    13. Re:Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by dbIII · · Score: 1
      Once again, a fair statement. However how is microhydro going to handle the macro scale
      Exactly how old is the Niagra Falls plant? Hydro is a tried and true technology refined over a century. Scaling down is a lot harder than scaling up.
      With the methods used in IFRs, the materials are no more usuable as nuclear fuel than uranium ore you mine from the ground.
      I suspect that is a major reason there are none of these plants operating. You may recall that the only plants built over more than the last decade have been by countries that aspire to construct, or have recently constructed nuclear weapons.
      no acceptable disposal solution
      Remember folks, an idea is not an implementation - we are dealing with reality here, so the "if only they let us build this magic plant" doesn't hold.

      After fifty years there are still too many "what ifs" with nuclear power, and a major one is still "what if we could build this plant that can break even?".

    14. Re:Solar energy . . . the big picture . . . by ttfkam · · Score: 1

      The Niagra Falls plant is not microhydro. Different discussion.

      But I guess you're right. We should set up hydroelectric at every major waterfall. Where were they in Idaho again? I've forgotten exactly.

      --

      - I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
  6. Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    "Something wrong with nuclear power?"

    Oh yeah. It is extremely expensive and dangerous, and the waste is so nasty that no-one has found a safe way to get rid of it yet. Cool down, Mr. Burns.

    "Sure, fission-waste is not something you want. But it sure beats the crap out of coal."

    Really now? OK. You have a choice. A bucket of fission waste under your bed, or a bucket of coal. Which one do you choose?

    1. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by Councilor+Hart · · Score: 4, Insightful
      t is extremely expensive and dangerous,
      If I am not mistaking, nuclear power is the cheapest.

      A bucket of fission waste under your bed, or a bucket of coal.
      Don't compare these things. The first is a waste product, the second is the raw material.
      The choice should be between a bucket of fission waste and a room filled the ashes and gasses that resulted from burning coal. I am not sure what would kill you first.

      I don't want either of them. But the fission waste can be stored and handeld. I a century or so, we might find a solution for it. The gas on the other hand goes in the atmosphere. You try getting it out. It too might be possible in a century. At least with fission waste the poles don't melt and the climate doesn't change. Although I do have to say that the sun is also partially responsible for a temp-rise.
      I don't understand the problem people have with fission. Sure it aint pretty, but it's the best we have so far.

    2. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by dbIII · · Score: 4, Informative
      If I am not mistaking, nuclear power is the cheapest.
      Sorry, you are mistaken. Perhaps Thatcher didn't build any more nuclear plants because she was a raving greeny (for those who don't know any recent history, Thatcher was a long way to the right), not becuase of the enormous losses of British Nuclear Fuels. Nuclear power is only cheap if you cook the books by not counting subsidies - it's a very expensive way to boil water.
      The choice should be between a bucket of fission waste and a room filled the ashes and gasses that resulted from burning coal. I am not sure what would kill you first.
      This is just silly, enough of either will kill you - gas at a few hundred degrees will certainly burn, ash will bury. The nearest office building to you may well contain a lot of coal ash used to make lightweight concrete - the majority of ash is silica in some form or another. Suphur and Nitrogen oxides are not good things to be released, which is why coal fired plants have "scrubbers" - the NOx and SOx is dissolved when the hot gas bubbles through water. It's not an expensive technology at all and has been in use for decades in most of the world. Carbon dioxide is the problem, but nuclear power is still just a 1950's white elephant used as the nice side of nuclear weapons. There are a lot better things to do with radioactive materials than boil water - it costs a huge amount to contain a process like that. Don't blindly believe the advertising agency line for nuclear power - "clean" is not the word that should be used for anything that will kill you on contact or in close proximity.
      But the fission waste can be stored and handeld
      Name one successful long term storage project. Synrock showed enormous promise, the the funding was cut before the project was finished. Dumping the stuff in the ocean in stainless steel drums, or stacking the stuff in tunnels is the current answer.

      Anyway, this is a discussion on solar cells, which lend themselves to distributed power generation of some form or another - they don't have to be big. More efficiency there makes the solar powered laptop easier to acheive.

    3. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by MindStalker · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Actually MANY studies have shown that the waste from coal (coal has some uranium in it and other radioative materials) is significantly more dangerous than nuclear. The deal is, coal waste gets spread out through the air in small bits and scattered around the ground and water. It has a large environmental price but and one bit of waste won't really hurt you. Nuclear waste is collected and stored in one place and does not get scattered, but that resulting waste being consentrated is more harmful, though constentated coal waste would be much more harmful. All in all its an image problem, if we were just to scatter nuclear waste arond and bury it in small chucks there would be no hazard. But people would freak.

    4. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by The+Master+Control+P · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Since when is nuclear power dangerous? There have been two nuclear accidents that anyone remembers in the last half century. Once was caused by a piss-poor reactor design (Chernobyl) and one was caused when operators screwed up (but almost no radiation was released). You get exposed to more radiation on an *airplane trip* than you will in a nuclear power plant. And coincedently, you also get more radiation from a coal power plant than from a nuclear power plant; see below.

      As for the choice of a bucket of coal or fission waste, that's loaded. By the time you had a bucket full of nuclear waste, you'd have burnt about 3 million tons of coal to generate the same amount of energy. And those 3 million tons of coal, when burnt, released about 3 tons of uranium and about 10 tons of thorium in the process.

      Run around in circles and scream! Coal power plants are a nu-cu-lar disaster! :)

    5. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by NelsChristian · · Score: 2, Informative
      It is the cheapest. Or was circa 1970-80 when I worked for NSP. The problems were political and legal. I heard a lot of talk about subsidy, but I never saw any proof thereof. The only thing proposed is an insurance liability limitation. Since Nuclear power is safer from the mine to the plant, that's only a reflection of real costs, not a subsidy.

      And if you wait a century, you don't have much beyond cold metallic waste. At one point the anti nuclear folk thought they'd stop the plants by refusing any movement of the waste. They thought the plants would choke on it. However, they let the plants double the size of the waste ponds. Since the stuff cools and can be compacted reasonably quickly, doubling the space gave something like 3-5 times more space (I no longer remember the real number, but it's exponential), and when you do pull stuff out, it's much less radioactive than before.

      I'm not a nuclear engineer, but I met a bunch there, and found them all worth respect. The only liars and fools in the argument were the anti-nuke-power folk.

    6. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by Councilor+Hart · · Score: 1
      This is just silly, enough of either will kill you
      Yes, that was I meant. But if it takes you a week to die from radiation poisoning, but only a day to die from lack of oxygen. Then the coal killed you. But for all I know it could be the other way around.

      More efficiency there makes the solar powered laptop easier to acheive.
      Yes, I was wondering why I haven't seen that yet. Except in some film. Then again I didn't know solar cells were that inefficient.

    7. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by ttfkam · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...gas at a few hundred degrees will certainly burn, ash will bury.

      You were aware that coal ash is highly toxic as well as radioactive, weren't you? With direct exposure to nuclear waste, you could die from radiation sickness (needing something like >10,000 rems to do that) or get cancer somewhere down the road. With direct exposure to coal ash, you could get poisoned by toxins, die from cancer somewhere down the road from that exposure, or die from cancer from the outputs of that power plant in the groundwater or air. Did you know that radioactivity in and around coal plants is higher by two orders of magnitude than those found outside a nuclear power plant? Did you know that the NRC rules for radioactivity outside a power plant are lower than the ambient radioactivity found in nature? Did you know that Grand Central Station in NYC would be automatically disqualified as a site for a nuclear power plant simply because the amount of radioactivity in its granite construction exceeds NRC maximum levels?

      "Yes, the American taxpayer has paid $1 billion [as of 1980] to research nuclear safety ... the American taxpayer also pays $1 billion, not total, but year after year, to Black Lung victims -- not to cure or eliminate it, but just to compensate its victims."

      "... the US government ... has very few enterprises that make money. But one of the them is uranium enrichment, for which the fuel manufacturers pay through their noses, and another is Price-Anderson insurance, the premia for which are paid by utilities, partly to private insurance pools, partly to the US government. The private insurances pay first, and they have so far paid $400,000 for 26 minor claims; Uncle Sam hasn't paid anything yet (and probably never will), but sits on a fund of $8 million of as yet unused premia. And, of course, the utilities pay taxes -- local, state, and federal -- with the stockholders paying a second round of taxes from their dividends. You call that a subsidy?"

      - The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear by Dr. Petr Beckman. © 1980

      The only reason nuclear could be more expensive (though still cheaper per kilowatt than solar) is because of the much expanded regulations on the nuclear industry that do not exist in the other industries.

      A hairline crack was found in the plumbing of stand-by equipment in a nuclear power plant some years back. This was found by visual inspection. There was no leakage -- even taking into account that this was not radioactive water in the pipes. So what was the NRC's decision? Take down this plant and every nuclear plant in the country with the same design -- I believe something like 22 of them at the time. And what did they find? The one hairline crack: the one originally found by regular visual inspection. If ANY industry were held to the same safety standards as nuclear, they would be bankrupt. As it stands, nuclear is still competitive. If such ornerous (ridiculous) safety checks were not in place, it would be substantially more reliable and cost effective than any alternative.

      Well, that and the fact that rabid Greens have lobbied successfully against breeder reactors in the U.S. which could make nuclear power generation even more profitable than it is today. IFR reactors could process the "waste" waiting to be stuck into Yucca Mountain AND repurpose nuclear warheads for power generation -- a proper end in my opinion to a large portion of our current nuclear stockpile.

      But no. Nuclear is BAD.

      Or did you have delusions that solar power would save the day or that coal is better than nuclear?

      Please do not misunderstand. I welcome increased usage of solar, wind, and to some extend tidal, but these are not enough to supply 3,720 billion kilowatt hours of po

      --

      - I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
    8. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      You were aware that coal ash is highly toxic as well as radioactive, weren't you?

      No I'm not - knowing some basic chemisty I know what highly toxic actually means, and knowing a bit about the ash recovery process i can tell you that ash is mostly silica. Ash is removed from the bottom of the boilers, and also from the flue gasses (the final stage is electrostatic precipitation to get all of the light material). The ash is handled wet and pumped into an ash dam, where the heavy material sinks. The light material is often removed to be used in conrete or even cement manufacture. The very light material, such as cenospheres (hollow spheres of silica) is used in lightweight concrete in large buildings.

      Over decades gravity seperation in the ash dams concentrates the heavier materials, giving layers of heavy metals. After a few decades there is enough there that it can be extracted from the dry ash dam, and this is done - but it takes millions of tonnes of coal before you get to that point.

      Coal ash is mostly silica and is inert for all practical purposes - it takes a lot of energy to do anything with silica. This does not mean it is safe - silicosis is a medical problem that arises from getting inert material into the lungs which cannot get out again - so the ash is kept wet.

      With direct exposure to coal ash, you could get poisoned by toxins

      I suggest you look up the word "concentration" in the dictionary or look a a basic chemistry textbook. Coal ash is not toxic apart from the dust hazard, which you get with sawdust, sand or anything with light particles you can breath in. Ash is the insignificant bit, the problems of removing NOx and SOx have been solved and implemented, so that just leaves us with the CO2 problem.

      Did you know that radioactivity in and around coal plants is higher by two orders of magnitude than those found outside a nuclear power plant?

      No I didn't, and I suspect the only people who do know have read some pamphlet on behalf of the nuclear industry. It sounds very unlikely to me - where is it all going to come from?

      Did you know that the NRC rules for radioactivity outside a power plant are lower than the ambient radioactivity found in nature?

      If that was the case every plant would fail unles it is built in a place with low background radiation. I suggest you read about radiation from physics, chemistry or radiography texts.

      The only reason nuclear could be more expensive (though still cheaper per kilowatt than solar) is because of the much expanded regulations on the nuclear industry that do not exist in the other industries.

      Even the existing regultions didn't prevent the Three Mile Island incident - since no-one was actually checking to see that the regulations were being adhered too, criminal negligence and blatent fraud were not found until a leak occurred. The Russians had strict regulations as well, with real penalties, but that did not prevent a unit of Chenobyl blowing up. There are very good reasons to keep this material contained, it is not clean and green like the advertisements say. Plutonium is the most toxic substance known. If it going to be used you need safegaurds.

      A hairline crack was found in the plumbing of stand-by equipment in a nuclear power plant some years back. This was found by visual inspection. There was no leakage -- even taking into account that this was not radioactive water in the pipes. So what was the NRC's decision? Take down this plant and every nuclear plant in the country with the same design

      This is standard practise throughout a lot of industries where the consequence of failure is severe. This sort of thing happens all the time. If a major fault is found in an aircraft all aircraft of that design are grounded until a cause is found and a fix applied. If you find a crack on a component you can get to and the consequences of f

    9. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by ttfkam · · Score: 1

      i can tell you that ash is mostly silica

      "Coal ash is composed primarily of oxides of silicon, aluminum, iron, calcium, magnesium, titanium, sodium, potassium, arsenic, mercury, and sulfur plus small quantities of uranium and thorium. Fly ash is primarily composed of non-combustible silicon compounds (glass) melted during combustion. Tiny glass spheres form the bulk of the fly ash.

      "Since the 1960s particulate precipitators have been used by U.S. coal-fired power plants to retain significant amounts of fly ash rather than letting it escape to the atmosphere. When functioning properly, these precipitators are approximately 99.5% efficient. Utilities also collect furnace ash, cinders, and slag, which are kept in cinder piles or deposited in ash ponds on coal-plant sites along with the captured fly ash.

      "Trace quantities of uranium in coal range from less than 1 part per million (ppm) in some samples to around 10 ppm in others. Generally, the amount of thorium contained in coal is about 2.5 times greater than the amount of uranium. For a large number of coal samples, according to Environmental Protection Agency figures released in 1984, average values of uranium and thorium content have been determined to be 1.3 ppm and 3.2 ppm, respectively. Using these values along with reported consumption and projected consumption of coal by utilities provides a means of calculating the amounts of potentially recoverable breedable and fissionable elements (see sidebar). The concentration of fissionable uranium-235 (the current fuel for nuclear power plants) has been established to be 0.71% of uranium content."

      Source: Alex Gabbard for Oak Ridge National Laboratory.

      Oh, but I forgot. Anyone who doesn't speak well of coal is a nuclear industry shill.

      No I didn't, and I suspect the only people who do know have read some pamphlet on behalf of the nuclear industry. It sounds very unlikely to me - where is it all going to come from?

      From the coal beds themselves. Uranium and thorium are naturally occuring materials.

      If that was the case every plant would fail unles it is built in a place with low background radiation. I suggest you read about radiation from physics, chemistry or radiography texts.

      "The NRC allows 10 mrems per year to persons living next to the property line of a nuclear plant, but its guidelines recommend a maximum of 5 mrems per year, and in point of fact, it starts investigating when this guideline limit is even approached.

      "In comparison, a person receives an internal dose of about 20 mrems per year from his/her own blood (mainly due to potassium 40, contained in many protein foods), 35 mrems from building materials, 35 from cosmic rays, 25 from food, 11 from the ground, 5 from the air, 103 from X-rays diagnostics, etc."

      Source: Nuclear Power and the Environment, International AEC, Vienna and The US Environmental Protection Agency

      Once again - straight out of an advertisement instead of reality. Invoking secrecy is a great way to cook the books and pretend you are breaking even without a subsidy - British Nuclear Fuels had no such luxury so we know how many billions they have lost.

      So am I to understand that France is losing money hand over fist because they are a nuclear-heavy country with 76% of all electricity there coming from nuclear? Why does Germany have so many nuclear reactors if they are so expensive? Are they cooking the books as well? Are you also factoring the more than $1 billion paid each year to sufferers of Black Lung?

      In the land of the SUV with Bush as President the greens dictate energy policy? Please think before you make such assertions. The USA stopp

      --

      - I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
    10. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by dbIII · · Score: 1

      "Coal ash is composed primarily of oxides of silicon, aluminum, iron, calcium, magnesium, titanium, sodium, potassium, arsenic, mercury,

      The article forgot to mention all of the other elements in the earths crust but that is the way it is going. Coal ash is mostly silica, with the other constituants in small amounts varying depending on where the coal comes from. I suggest you look it up in a reputable source. What you quoted is not a reputable source - cenospheres may be silica but they certainly are not "Tiny glass spheres".

      The concentration of fissionable uranium-235 (the current fuel for nuclear power plants) has been established to be 0.71% of uranium content.

      You do see the game that the author of the article is playing don't you? He's given you the number in the form of a percentage of a small percentage to make the number look bigger.

      Anyone who doesn't speak well of coal is a nuclear industry shill.

      Coal has acknowledged problems without the silly ones propogated by the "look coal is radioactive too - so nuclear is OK" articles. I used to work in coal fired power stations, with some work for hydro and brief visits to oil refineries so I could be considered suspect as well I suppose. I'm now working in association with the mining exploration industry, which really covers oil, coal and uranium.

      Why does Germany have so many nuclear reactors if they are so expensive?

      They were built a very long time ago to provide some independance from inported energy sources - the same reason Japan did. France had military reasons. France is so far the only country to successfully decommision a nuclear power plant - it cost an absolute fortune to do, and a few people were killed in a liquid sodium accident in the process. France does not appear to be likely to break even on nuclear power either, which is why they haven't built any plants in a long time.

      The news completely sidestepped the fact that earlier that month, a reactor in Idaho peformed a test with the exact same conditions presented by Chernobyl

      Mentioning that would have appeared a bit petty at the time. It's not the safe drivers that make the news, it's the ones that have accidents.

      Chernobyl was a graphite reactor whose primary purpose was weapons production

      I suspect you read something on the topic. Steam is not a weapon. Ohter methods are used to make weapons grade materials. I've worked with someone who worked in a plant of the same design (tenuous link I know), and from the description of how the plant worked I would have to say that you are wrong.

      probability of uranium with a maximum concentration of U-235 at 3% going critical mass

      Chenobyl was not a hydrogen bomb - it was a steam explosion that scattered radioactive materials - simple mundane heat and water. It was still a disaster.

      I am sorry to hear about the accident in your country. What kind of reactor is it?

      It was at a uranium mine. Water from the mine was piped by accident into the water supply. It was noticed when large numbers of miners became ill after a shower, and uranium was later found in the town water supply in the early stages of the investigation. It's ongoing, but there is something about it here.Radioactive materials need to be treated with respect, silly little incidents with small amounts can cause problems.

      according to your observations, nuclear is a gratuitously expensive way to boil water

      All the associated machinery required to run it and contain it is not cheap. All those rare earths in the components are - rare. When you have a combination of heat, stress and subatomic particles flying around you have to use fairly exotic materials if you want them to last - and you have to get it right

    11. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by Frit+Mock · · Score: 1

      "If ANY industry were held to the same safety standards as nuclear, they would be bankrupt. As it stands, nuclear is still competitive. If such ornerous (ridiculous) safety checks were not in place, it would be substantially more reliable and cost effective than any alternative."

      Hm ... in Sovjet Russia, there were not these ridiculous checks ...

      Reliability and cost efficency was proven on 25.4.1886 in Chernobyl.

      Ok, this is a bit trolling, however the extend of the damages caused by accidents with nuclear power make such checks neccessary and not RIDICULOUS at all!

      And never ever nuclear power will be more reliable if such checks are not in place!

      And please, don't answer, that US nuclear power plants cannot be compared to others!

      It was just luck, verry great luck, that on 28.3.1979 there was _only_ a partial reactor meltdown in Harrisburg. For about 4 days it was uncertain to everyone what will happen.

      "Please do not misunderstand. I welcome increased usage of solar, wind, and to some extend tidal, but these are not enough to supply 3,720 billion kilowatt hours of power -- the amount used by the U.S. in 2001 -- "

      Hm ... please do not misunderstand, it is rather that way, that there is not enough supply for 4% of the worlds population consuming 25% of the worlds energy production! --- That's the amount used by the US ... not only in 2001.

      And do not try to argue, that it is that way, due to economic power of the US. It is a fact, that all other major democratic industrial nations are much more efficent. The ratio energy consumptio per gross national product is about 0.23 for the us and 0.16 for Japan, Germany or the UK.

      As a conclusion from that numbers, it would be possible for the US, to shut down every nuclear power plant (or whatever you think is the worst/expensive way to produce energy), if they would modernize their economy to reach the efficency of the mentioned countries.

      And belive me, modernization does not cost any money, it saves money! (Costs for energy are reduced to 2/3 of the current value.)

      If you want to have numbers for other countries, take a look at:

      http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator.cfm?Indica to rID=19

      (for GDP)

      or at:

      http://globalis.gvu.unu.edu/indicator.cfm?Indica to rID=146

      (for energy consumption)

    12. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by Frit+Mock · · Score: 1

      "Did you know that radioactivity in and around coal plants is higher by two orders of magnitude than those found outside a nuclear power plant?"

      "No I didn't, and I suspect the only people who do know have read some pamphlet on behalf of the nuclear industry. It sounds very unlikely to me - where is it all going to come from? "

      I am not sure, if the grand parent is right, regarding radiation around coal power plants. However the point that coal power plants produce highly radioaktive waste is correct.

      The explanation is for that is very simple.

      Coal naturaly contains (like every other material) some radioactive isotopes. If you burn coal, these isotopes do not magicaly vanish. Except for a few isotopes, they do not burn and are left in the ashes or leak as solid matter particles with the exhaust fumes.
      Because most of the coal has burned and vanished as gas and most of the isotopes are left behind, they are in a much higher concentration, then they where before. Actually burning coal concentrates nantural radiation to unnatural high radiation in the ashes (and solid matter particles.)

      It depends on the filters of the coal power plant, how much particles leak with the exhaust fumes and fall out near the plant. But anyway the waste of a coal power plant is radiactive waste. (But still far less radioactive than burned out fuel rods of a nuclear power plant.)

    13. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by Frit+Mock · · Score: 1

      "Chenobyl was not a hydrogen bomb - it was a steam explosion that scattered radioactive materials - simple mundane heat and water. It was still a disaster. "

      Not entirely true! There was a steam explosion ... but this was not the only one.

      After the chain reaction in the reactor went out of control, the cooling system overheated and finaly exploded. This first stem explosion lifted of the cover plate of the reactor, but released only some fission products to the atmosphere. After the first (steam) explosion, there was a second explosion in the reactor, that released fragments of the nuclear fuel and causing the graphite moderator to burst into flames.
      After the moderator was destroyed, the chain reaction continued and the heat melted down the rest of the reactor and through the foundation of the reactor building.

      The first (and smaller) steam explosion, released just a few fision products, the second explosion (although there is some dispute about it's nature) threw out parts of burning nuclear fuel rods, graphite and othere materials from the reactor core.
      However, the final graphite modertor fire burned for nine days, causing the main release of radiactive materials into the atmosphere.

    14. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by dbIII · · Score: 1
      However the point that coal power plants produce highly radioaktive waste is correct.
      No, it isn't.

      Highly radioactive waste by definition is material which emits particles in large numbers- ie shows evidence of radioactivity. It can be easily shown whether something does or doesn't fall into that catagory. That small amount of radioactive material that you will find in a few hundred tonnes of coal when concentrated twenty times (assuming 5% ash) still doesn't add up to much at all. It's certainly less radioactive than a lot of beach sand, simply due to what is in the rock - after all you want mostly coal to go in so you can burn it, and its easy to get the harder and heavier bits out during crushing before you burn it.

      It depends on the filters of the coal power plant, how much particles leak with the exhaust fumes and fall out near the plant.
      Heavy metals are heavy, so they come out with gravity. Water gets the intermediate things plus NOx and SOx. Fly ash is made of such things as silicon and oxygen and can form into hollow spheres which are very light - electrostatic precipitation gets those.
      But anyway the waste of a coal power plant is radiactive waste
      Repeating it doesn't make it true. Some time ago there was a weird psuedo-scientific article that made this assertion - which neglected to mention one of the disadvantes of coal fire plants which also blew the whole argument out of the water. Coal fired plants produce large amounts of ash, those traces of radioactive material produced each year at each plant are spread out as specks through thousands of tonnes of ash. The ash ends in in materials like concrete and automotive repair putty. The whole thing is a beat up by elements of the nuclear power lobby to put other forms of energy down and get some some sort of green credibility, so that maybe they'll get some funding to build another plant someday. It didn't work over a decade ago, but we're left with a new urban myth that coal is more radioactive than radioactive materials.

      Coal fired plants produce CO2 in large amounts, which is another problem in itself - but this odd nuclear distraction game is a differnet story.

    15. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >If I am not mistaking, nuclear power is the cheapest.

      You are mistaken. Coal is far cheaper than Nuclear. Coal fired plants are also more efficient. Coal fired plants produces steam at about 800F, were as fission light water reactors produce steam at about 320F.

      The advantage of Fission fired plants is the lack of CO2 gas, which of course is a greenhouse gas.

    16. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by onion_breath · · Score: 1

      I think it depends what you are talking about with cost. Although the initial capital investment for nuclear energy is much larger than a thermal plant, the actual cost of 'boiling water' from the nuclear fuel is much cheaper per megawatt than any other means of producing energy from fuel (excluding Hydro/Wind/Solar, however they do not burn fuel to boil water, so I am not counting these). Before you try to debunk, I'll let you know right now that I have worked in energy transmission and I got to see the costs of creating energy per megawatt at least every other day.

      --
      this is my sig, be amazed.
    17. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by 0111+1110 · · Score: 1

      At least with fission waste the poles don't melt and the climate doesn't change.

      Oh god, not another "greenhouse effect" true believer. Show me some real evidence that the amount of extra CO2 we humans produce has any real effect on our atmosphere. What I find even more ludicrous about these near religious beliefs is that we all admit that fossil fuels are limited. Even if the CO2 we produce is enough to produce those kinds of global climatic changes, we will have consumed all of our fossil fuels (or at least enough to make alternative sources cheaper) long before our oceans start boiling or whatever scenario you envision

      --
      Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.
    18. Re:Something wrong with nuclear power? Oh yeah... by ttfkam · · Score: 1

      You do see the game that the author of the article is playing don't you? He's given you the number in the form of a percentage of a small percentage to make the number look bigger.

      Fair enough. But let's be completely fair. We've had over a hundred years to refine coal power production. Nuclear power has come into its own much faster than coal. You say that nuclear is an expensive way to boil water. Fine. Light water reactors can only get 3-6% of the actinide-based material to fission. Light water reactors require a great deal in complexity to maintain safety. Please not that I have never questioned nor contradicted those statements. I have never promoted the use of light water reactors. (Check my previous posts.) I have been talking about IFR nuclear reactors. Their designs are simpler, they rely on passive safety features, they use less fuel, they are never refueld in their estimated 70 year lifespan, and 10-20% of the nuclear fuel actually fissions to produce power in between cycles (multiple cycles per plant operating life).

      And fuel, once converted for use in an IFR (not difficult) is extremely difficult to repurpose for weapons use. How difficult? It would not be possible to divert fuel from this reactor to make bombs, as several of the transuranics spontaniously fission rapidly enough that any assembly would simply melt before it could be completed.

      It was at a uranium mine. Water from the mine was piped by accident into the water supply. It was noticed when large numbers of miners became ill after a shower, and uranium was later found in the town water supply in the early stages of the investigation.

      How much? Have accidents like this ever happened from coal mines?

      I don't mean to belittle it. Far from it. But I must point out that it is beside the point from the type of nuclear I am discussing. IFR reactors can use spent fuel from older light water reactors and the transuranics formerly used in nuclear warheads. Although I can't speak to the British Isles, the U.S. has large stockpiles of uranium already mined. You do not necessarily have to mine new ore for it.

      Assuming you did have to mine new ore, you must only mine 1/100 of the uranium as coal to get the same amount of power. Less mining should equate to fewer accidents. Yes, I know coal is more common than uranium. Perhaps I am being far too U.S.-centric, but North America has more than enough uranium so as to not be a strong issue of scarcity.

      Oh yeah, I forgot. Thorium, a much more common element, can be used in breeder reactors.

      France had military reasons.

      France also got their asses kicked by the oil embargos of the 1970s. Let's not forget the loss of fossil fuels for that was the primary impetus for the expansion of nuclear power in France. France is not as fossil fuel rich as many other countries.

      If weapons work was their primary motivator, why did it start its crash program on building nuclear reactors when they did? Why not earlier? Why not later? Seems a bit arbitrary to me. Did they use their power program as a facilitator to weapons? Sure, I do not dispute that. I do however dispute that this was their primary motivator. Their primary motivator in my opinion was keeping the lights on and reduce foreign fuel dependence.

      Chenobyl was not a hydrogen bomb - it was a steam explosion that scattered radioactive materials - simple mundane heat and water. It was still a disaster.

      Another poster already handled this. At the same time, the Soviet Union also failed to tell citizens what had happened right away. They took no preventative measures (iodine tables to greatly reduce the chance of thyroid cancer). Chernobyl was a disaster for far more reasons than the explosion.

      All the associated machinery required to run it and contain it is not cheap. All those rare earths in

      --

      - I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
  7. A step in the right direction (still just a step) by MammaMia · · Score: 0, Redundant
    "Besides cost, solar cell efficiency is the second most critical criteria."

    And the other critical criteria? Such as the inefficiency and byproduct waste of making solar cells in the first place? I'm all for research, but unfortunately we're still a LONG way from using solar power on a large scale. I'd like to hope that's where this is ultimately going.

    OTOH, any step forward toward greener energy is good in my book.

    --
    "We are the first generation to influence the climate and the last generation to escape the consequences." - John McCain
  8. The real question is ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... Is this material subject to the Stabler-Wronski effect? If so, the claims of 50% efficiency would only hold up for the first few hours of use.

    1. Re:The real question is ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Perhaps a photon simulation using bi-directional path tracing could reveal the answer.

    2. Re:The real question is ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Stabler-Wronski is a real effect, but I doubt you've heard of it. (Probably only those of us working in grad studies in electrical engineering, or those who design solar cells in industry.)

      Basically, due to electro-migration, solar cells based on hydrogenated amorphous silicon (and certain other similar amorphous-like crystal structures) lose about half of their efficiency in the first few hours of use. My question was simply whether this new material suffered the same effect or not.

  9. The only equation that matters by Dr.+Bent · · Score: 3, Insightful


    When it comes to adoption of solar power, there's only one calculation that really matters:

    C = Cost of installing solar panel
    R = Revenue generated (or money saved) per year
    M = Maintainence costs per year

    (R - M) >= C * 20%

    In plain english, when you can get (somewhere around) a 20% return on investment from installing a solar panel, you'll start to see them on top of office building, parking garages, and just out in the middle of open fields, soaking up money.

    Until then, solar power will be a technical curiosity for use in special situations (outer space) and for those with a political agenda.

    1. Re:The only equation that matters by PrinceAshitaka · · Score: 3, Interesting

      this equation matters if you are planning on investing in a solar power plant. I would believe that there is a market for solar powqer for people that would like to live off the grid. unlike nuclear or coal power it is plausible to have a solar power generator for a house and a neiborhood.

      --
      quis custodiet ipsos custodes
    2. Re:The only equation that matters by SB9876 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The fact that most people miss is that solar cells have started to push past this goal. They now take less energy to manufacture than they capture in their lifetime (always a bonus), and the cost per kWh is pushing down to 2-3 times grid electricity. Given that solar cells have demonstrated a steady decline in cost for the past few decades, chances are good that we'll start seeing large scale adoption in the next decade.

      There's also other factor encouraging the use of solar cells. For one, they're much more durable. There's some cells now that can be used rdirectly as roofing tiles where you can put nails through them and walk on them. They aren't the best panels out there but the ruggedness factor is attractive. Also, most power companies now let you sell off excess capacity back to the power grid these days. That development alone can make solar cell arrays in sunny areas pay for themselves in 10 years or so.

      Unfortunately, I live in Seattle, land of little direct sunlight and no steady wind. Renewable energy for me is out until those solar cells get another 50% decline in $/kWh.

    3. Re:The only equation that matters by MindStalker · · Score: 1

      Actually I've seen many figures that say there is atleast that much return on investment. Its just that its an investment many people don't know about, isn't highly advertised, and not everyone wants to bother with.

    4. Re:The only equation that matters by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Are you saying that people won't invest in something until their return is at least tax free 20%?

      If I could get buy an investment that would give me a tax free return of 7% I'd leap at it. I say tax free because saving money isn't taxed. A penny saved is more than a penny earned because a penny earned is taxed.

    5. Re:The only equation that matters by SB9876 · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, that's largely true. Although solar has made inroads on things like shipboard use and little garden lights, most people just don't think of it as a primary power source.

      I suspect that once solar power gets to the point where it can pay for itself in under a year, you'll see public attention start hitting it. I am encouraged by those little solar powered lawn lgihts, though. As cheesy as they are, they are popular and start to subconciously affect people to think that 'Hey, solar power *does* work!"

    6. Re:The only equation that matters by tgrigsby · · Score: 1

      So why isn't someone developing something that can use the kinetic energy from rain and turn it into electricity?

      Hmmmm..... hold the phone...

      --
      *** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
    7. Re:The only equation that matters by slickwillie · · Score: 1

      No, the other formula is:

      (cost of solar) (cost of grid power).

      The cost of grid power has seen a steady increase of about 6%/year, and the cost of solar is coming down. With net metering and time-of-use metering (i.e. you sell your electricity to the power company), a residential solar system can start paying for itself on day 1.

  10. The Socialist solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "C = Cost of installing solar panel"

    Under Socialism , C always = 0, since the government pays for it. If the government pays for it, you don't have to.

    1. Re:The Socialist solution by Smidge204 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Under Socialism, R is also 0, but M might not be. You pay for it alright, just not directly.

      So under Socialism there is *no* incentive to use them other than political adgendas.
      =Smidge=

  11. Great news by b-baggins · · Score: 2, Funny

    Now we can run 5 100-watt light bulbs per square meter in death valley in full sunlight.

    --
    You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
  12. This underscores the need for ... by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Major research into energy storage. The 2 major problems that we have in energy generation is either
    1. the peak total of plants are pretty much maxed out and will require building of new plants
    2. Alternative energy is sporadic and can not be counted on (except for tidal).
    Right now, we have money going into generation, but really need to spend it on storage as nothing really works well. I would love to money put into Beoings use of salt and a stirling engine for doing this. But I doubt it will happen.
    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:This underscores the need for ... by SB9876 · · Score: 1

      Large scale energy storage is particularly important for solar adoption. Right now, the sell-back system with the power grid works since there's only small amounts of power coming from home power grids. However, as soon as it goes mass-market, the off-peak power market's going to implode. While that's great for aluminum refiners, it means that the economic advantage of solar is largely negated.

      Whatever happened to the idea of superconducting power rings? Did the magnetic flux intensity just prove too great for practical use?

    2. Re:This underscores the need for ... by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Whatever happened to the idea of superconducting power rings?
      I have not seen anything on that in a long time. Last I heard of superconductors were still below liquid nitrogen temps, therefor requireing liquid helium/hydrogen (both too expensive). But that is certainly why a funding for storage needs to take place. Interestingly enough, I was thinking that this could even help nuke plants. They are always hot and capable of 24/7 production. So this can increase the output by quite a bit. Cheap way to increase these plants value.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    3. Re:This underscores the need for ... by SB9876 · · Score: 1

      I did a Google and there are actually commercially available systems out there that are being sold for power conditioning and UPS service for businesses. They use liquid He and old school superconductors because of teh higher current density possible. There's still talk of city scale units but it sounds like the economics haven't caught up to practicality of those just yet.

    4. Re:This underscores the need for ... by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 1

      Whatever happened to the idea of superconducting power rings? Did the magnetic flux intensity just prove too great for practical use?

      The main problem with superconducting storage is that high-temperature superconductors break down at relatively modest [for power storage] field strengths (in the range of 1 Tesla), and liquid helium cooled superconductors are only somewhat better (best I've heard is 8 Tesla for particle accelerator magnets cooled to 1.8K).

      It turns out that the situation is even worse, though. Even if you spec magical materials for the field coils - like, say, zero resistance and the strength of carbon nanotubes (120 GPa) - energy per unit coil mass is much worse than the energy density you'd get with a comparable amount of chemical fuel. The same turns out to apply to flywheels (even constructed of magical ultra-tensile materials), and most of the other proposed schemes I've heard of.

      This means that chemical storage schemes like fuel cells are likely to win out over more exotic storage mechanisms for the near to intermediate future. While you could build a storage plant using hydrogen fuel cells, the holy grail would be to get something like methanol working as efficiently (you can use it as a fuel easily enough - it's rebuilding it from the combustion products that's the problem).

    5. Re:This underscores the need for ... by SB9876 · · Score: 1

      What about a Sabatier reaction? 2H20 -> 2H2 + O2 | CO2 + 2H2 -> CH4 + O2. I know that Zubrin in his Case for MArs stuff built a fairly high efficiency setup that fit onto a pegboard. IIRC, the synthesis rate wasn't too spectacular but it's a process that can be scaled up fairly easily.

  13. The problem with fision has a name... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    ...it's Chernobil.

  14. We did the time warp again? by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Until then, solar power will be a technical curiosity for use in special situations (outer space)
    Ever seen a pocket calculator? They don't plug into the wall anymore - they started to run on batteries, and now run on solar power. Marine navigation lights don't burn parafin, they have little solar panels on top of them. A lot of microwave relay towers are solar powered. Yachts have solar panels. I would have said the exact same things in the 1990s and it is now 2004. A better solar cell helps in those applications where they are already in use, and makes other applications easier to implement.

    In plain english, there are other design criteria other than a very simple equation even an economist could understand. Economies of scale mean that in most cases it is cheaper for a business to get power from a grid, no matter what powers it.

    1. Re:We did the time warp again? by ttfkam · · Score: 1


      Uh hunh... Please read my comment from another thread. Solar doesn't scale. It runs up against the 1st Law of Themodynamics. A calculator is not the same as serving all of our country's energy needs.

      --

      - I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
  15. Cheap spray-on coating that generates electricity! by DoraLives · · Score: 2
    The good news is that one of these days somebody's actually going to do it.

    The bad news is that shortly thereafter, everything will turn an odious dull black.

    --
    Is it fascism yet?
  16. Tertiary recovery of oil by Tau+Zero · · Score: 2, Informative
    The problem with using water is that it is an immiscible fluid, and much of the oil will tend to remain stuck in pores in the rock rather than flow out under the small bouyancy forces caused by water.

    You can get around this by using a non-polar solvent instead of water. Liquid carbon dioxide is good for this, with two further benefits:

    • CO2 is a byproduct of combustion, so is plentiful, and
    • Putting CO2 into the earth is a good way of sequestering it, so using recovered CO2 to dissolve and lift oil can simultaneously help meet CO2-reduction targets.
    The real interesting times will come when (I'm sure it's when, not if) energy from solar becomes so cheap that we wind up using it to perform environmental remediation. We might wind up making crude-like oil and pumping it back into the earth just to put excess carbon away. We are already able to make "light sweet" oil from organic goo using thermal depolymerization, so taking it to that conclusion it is only a matter of purpose and scale.
    --
    Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
  17. You need to check the facts more by Tau+Zero · · Score: 1
    I bet they won't produce as much power as solar cells for the same area of sunlight.
    Typical efficiency of silicon solar cells is 15% or so, and if I recall correctly the Luz concentrating solar plants were able to beat 20% (I could be wrong, a search did not turn up any solid information).

    But that doesn't matter. There is no shortage of sunlight; the problem is the expense of collecting it. This makes the most important metric $/W instead of W/m^2, and cutting $/W is the worthiest goal for the widest variety of uses. To that end, Energy Innovations came up with the idea of a small multi-mirror concentrator system feeding a Stirling cycle generator. 200 watts for $200, or $1/peak watt. The last I heard they had put the Stirling engine on the back burner due to development costs and were going to market with a concentrating photovoltaic system instead. We're going to have to wait, I guess (or license their patents).

    --
    Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
  18. Re:Solar energy . . . A grain of salt by NelsChristian · · Score: 1
    Some of their anti-myths are questionable. They state that the long dark days of a northern winter can be balanced by long bright summers. However, they expect the storage to be done by the power grid. And they want it for free, selling in the summer and buying in the winter. However, northern summers are peak electricity use times for cooling, just like elsewhere.

    Tanstaafl

  19. Mining equip is often electric by adoll · · Score: 1
    Large cable shovels (used in coal mines and oilsand operations) tend to be electric. This picture shows the cable on a shovel at a Canadian copper/gold mine.

    Underground equipment tends to be even more electrified. Here is a photo of a chairlift, yes- like the skiing kind, being used in an underground gold mine in Africa.

    -AD

  20. Other development by codeButcher · · Score: 3, Informative
    Research done here in South Africa by Prof. Vivian Alberts et al has turned up some more promising results. From another article (here, unfortunaltely not in English) some of the highlights:
    • Cu, In, Ga, Se and S are deposited via a vacuum & diffusion process
    • Can be deposited on plain glass (same stuff used for window panes)
    • 1 micron of this stuff absorbs more sunlight than 350 microns of Si (about 99% of light - don't know how this translates to efficiency, though - article not too technical).
    • Panels like these would cost roughly a tenth of the price of those currently available.
    • Pilot plant for manufacturing was expected to begin manufacturing somewhere in April (this month), manufacturing panels 400mm x 500mm @ 20W
    • Pilot plant (100 sq m) to cost about US$ 2.3 - probably within reach for many developing countries.
    Unfortunalty there's not much more detail or Web references....
    --
    Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
    1. Re:Other development by Christopher+Thomas · · Score: 1

      (about 99% of light - don't know how this translates to efficiency, though - article not too technical)
      [...]
      manufacturing panels 400mm x 500mm @ 20W


      That says they're speccing them to about 10% efficiency.

  21. Don't use batteries. by raygundan · · Score: 1

    Don't use batteries. It's not cost-effective. They're huge, high-maintenance, and have to be replaced regularly. It's better to run a grid-tied system and hope somebody else figures out how to handle storage more effectively.

    Nonetheless, I wouldn't suggest to most people that they try this to save money. It's at the point where you can break even in 8-10 years, but that's still the sort of time frame where it appeals mostly to folks who are doing it because they want to, not because it's a financial gain. It is a financial gain when done right, but not for a long time.

  22. Re: Flying cars by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 1
    We already have planes and helicopters.
    Yeah, but with these you can't:
    • Park them in your garage (at least, not easily).
    • Land them in any parking lot, e.g., to go grocery shopping.
    • Ride with the top down.
    Now, you can do some of these things with ultra-lights, but ultralights aren't very comfortable and don't go very fast.
    --
    Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
  23. NOT off-topic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mod parent "underrated"

  24. NOT off-topic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mod parent "underrated".

  25. Solar power daylight calculations by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 1
    While I agree with your argument in general, I think that you need to make a slight correction:
    Multiply that by 8 (average number of hours in the day with usable sunlight)
    [...]
    And this assumes that it's daytime -- the sun is shining at the time.
    You already took daytime into account with the 8-hour figure.
    Accounting for clouds and rain would probably reduce the daily sunlight average low enough that energy needs wouldn't be met.

    An effective way to use renewable energy exclusively is to build huge solar arrays in space (where there is lots of room) and beam the energy to Earth as microwaves.
    Using asteroids, etc., as raw materials will reduce the pollution/energy costs associated with producing the materials on Earth and sending them into space.
    The technology to do this is not too far beyond present-day.
    The main hurdle to this method will be political (misinformed environmentalists, oil companies, etc.).
    --
    Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
    1. Re:Solar power daylight calculations by ttfkam · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the correction. In truth, I was spending some time on that comment (that very few will probably ever read). In the editing/revision process, that ended up as an unwanted artifact from an earlier draft.
      An effective way to use renewable energy exclusively is to build huge solar arrays in space (where there is lots of room) and beam the energy to Earth as microwaves.
      Using asteroids, etc., as raw materials will reduce the pollution/energy costs associated with producing the materials on Earth and sending them into space.
      Danger Will Robinson! How do we get the huge solar arrays into space? Rockets: those huge cylinders that dump enormous amounts of pollutants into the atmosphere at every launch. Then add the cost of launching these satellites. Then calculate the number of solar collectors that must be launched. Then calculate the amount per square meter of solar energy that can be collected using the state of the art. I personally don't have all of those numbers. I would love to see them if you would be willing to post them.

      Note: this is making the assumption that we won't use nuclear. Nuclear: cleaner than sending up a bunch of rockets. Cheaper than sending up a bunch of rockets. More power than you will get from a solar array. So why aren't you advocating nuclear? We could take those coal plants offline within ten or twenty years. For every 100 coal plants (at least), we could replace it with a nuclear plant which is cleaner than just one of those coal plants. And power demands are met in spades. So what's the problem? The waste? Did you read my previous comment? So let's review: hypothetically build a massive amount of solar panels, load them onto rockets, beam the energy back via microwaves, etc. OR build nuclear plants for which we lready have plans, have already implemented a prototype, have examples running in Europe, and can prove -- not a hypothetical number -- but prove that electricity output will be at least the levels we have previously seen.

      Personally, I'd prefer just sticking to plans for making solar panels for homes more efficient and affordable here on Earth.

      As far as asteroids and construction in space, asteroids would be useful for manufacturing space vehicles in space so that one would not have to overcome Earth's gravity nor pollute our environment. This may not solve our domestic energy problems (I'm waiting on the numbers for those solar panels in orbit). Another problem with asteroids is that we would have to have a sizeable asteroid come reasonably close to the Earth so that we could rendezvous. Then we'd have to stop its movement or make that further movement more accessible to us in the future. And then we have to sep up mining facilities on it.
      The technology to do this is not too far beyond present-day.
      That depends on what your definition of "too far beyond" is. So far, we as a species have only ever even orbited an asteroid exactly once let alone landed on it, altered its movement, surveyed it, established facilities, mined materials even in the smallest scale in space, etc. And this presupposes that our first dozen attempts will be even close to profitable.
      --

      - I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
  26. Damn, forgot my coal info link by ttfkam · · Score: 1
    --

    - I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
    1. Re:Damn, forgot my coal info link by dbIII · · Score: 1

      Tinfoil hat warning on the above link. Come on, if things were like the article said we wouldn't bother to mine uranium, we would pick up lumps of it lying in the street outside coal fired power plants.

    2. Re:Damn, forgot my coal info link by ttfkam · · Score: 1

      Except that the uranium and thorium are dispersed throughout all of the ash, not in "lumps ... lying in the street."

      From the article: "Coal ash is composed primarily of oxides of silicon, aluminum, iron, calcium, magnesium, titanium, sodium, potassium, arsenic, mercury, and sulfur plus small quantities of uranium and thorium. Fly ash is primarily composed of non-combustible silicon compounds (glass) melted during combustion. Tiny glass spheres form the bulk of the fly ash."

      If anything is tin foil, it was my tone, not the content of the article. I do apologize for the tone of my previous comment. I am not saying that you will die (immediately) from hanging out in front of coal plants, but you are indeed exposed to higher levels of radiation outside of a coal plant than a nuclear plant.

      Take a Geiger counter. See for yourself. The radiation levels are indeed higher than the surrounding environment. Are those levels high enough to harm an individual? Probably not. But the levels outside of a nuclear plant definitely won't. This was the point I was trying to make.

      --

      - I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
  27. Re: Don't launch solar panels into space by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 1

    What I meant was to use asteroids as the raw materials for building orbital solar panels.
    What would be launched into space would be factories that would capture asteroids and build solar panels out of them.

    So we don't have to "get the huge solar arrays into space", because we build them out of material (asteroids, comets, etc.) that is already there.
    What has to be launched are the factories.
    Or go one step further: launch one or two factories into space that use an asteroid/comet to make many solar panel factories.
    Then the solar panel factories will make the solar panels from other asteroids/comets.
    This method would require only one or two launches (assuming that the factories are small enough that they don't have to be sent up in pieces), plus maybe a few more to send up components (such as electronics) that are too complicated or require too much infrastructure (e.g., large chip fab plants) to make in space.

    Also, once the Space Elevator is built (a little bit further beyond present-day), rocket launches will no longer be necessary.

    I have nothing against nuclear energy (I would prefer it to fossil fuels of whatever kind), but IMO, the less mining on Earth, the better.
    (Some mining would be necessary to get the materials to build the microwave collectors and rockets, but I don't think that it would be as much as mining nuclear fuel and materials to create nuclear power plants.)

    --
    Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
  28. Re:Three Men and a Baby PG by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When I saw this sign at the cinema from a distance way back when that movie came out, I thought it said: 'Three Men and a Baby PIG' . I couldn't imagine what they were doing with a pig...

  29. Try Low-Tech First by Shipud · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In many Mediterranian countries, water is heated using solar panels which utilize the greenhouse effect. The idea is that blackened water pipes are running through a glass panel installed on the roof, facing south. Hot water is stored in a tank. In summer, and in many winter months, this removes the need for heating water electrically. Coming to a sunny part of the US, I was pretty astonished not to find that. Well, at least not in Cali. Makes you wonder why how much this new development will be implemented.

    --
    /sdrawkcab si gis siht
    1. Re:Try Low-Tech First by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would be interesting to see "how much this new development will be implemented." Particularly if this were a new development. I know people that had them installed at least 20 years ago; and that in a climate (Wisconsin) much less sunny than California. The problem is that energy is still relatively cheap. As long as the energy is cheap, Average Joe isn't going to bother seeking alternatives.

  30. Re:Three Men and a Baby PG by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 1

    I'd moderate you up for funny if I could. Of course, it's not as creepy sounding as "Three Men and a Little Lady PIG"

    --
    You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
  31. Distributon grid costs will obsolete remote power by Paul+Fernhout · · Score: 1

    Whether power is produced by centralized nukes, big hydro, coal plants, or solar space satellites beaming power to big rectenna farms on Earth, the power must get to the consumer. Typically that is though an electric grid. Right now, about half or so of an electric bill can be delivery cost -- the cost of maintaining the grid. So, it will make no economic sense to buy power from a grid once local solar falls below about $0.06 / killowatt-hour. This is in about 35 years w/o major breakthroughs by current trends -- faster with a breakthrough like this -- assuming energy efficiency and storage or cogeneration issues are also dealt with cost effectively. Note that even with local solar cells, it may still make sense to have some centralized production of synthetic liquid fuels for use for transportation or backup power using cogeneration especially in northern lattitudes -- solar space satellites might have a role to play in that if we otherwise already have a space industrial infrastructure.

    --
    A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.