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From the Higgs Boson Particle to Leadbelly

Roland Piquepaille writes "Physicists from the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory are using the same methods to search for the elusive Higgs Boson particle and to digitally restore audio recordings from the past. Berkeley Lab signed an agreement with the Library of Congress to digitize the many thousands of early blues or jazz recordings it has in its archives. And the results are spectacular. Compare for example, these two versions of "Good Bye Irene", before and after being optically reconstructed (WAV format, 18 and 19 seconds). This news release describes the method used by the physicists. This overview contains other details and extra references about this project." We also covered finding Higgs Boson recently as well.

194 comments

  1. Yes!! by clifgriffin · · Score: 4, Funny

    I can't wait to place this new digitally restored version next to my old Good Bye Irene CD, and right under my Good Bye Irene poster.

  2. Does this mean by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    DRMed quarks will be just around the corner?

  3. RIAA-MGM? by numbski · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So out of the goodness of their little hearts the RIAA is sponsoring this restoration, or are they going through and copyrighting all of this material?

    --

    Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).

    1. Re:RIAA-MGM? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny
      So out of the goodness of their little hearts the RIAA is sponsoring this restoration, or are they going through and copyrighting all of this material?
      Record companies steal royalties copyrights from deceased blues musicians? Inconceiveable!
    2. Re:RIAA-MGM? by viking099 · · Score: 4, Funny

      You use that word.
      Are you sure it means what you think it means?

    3. Re:RIAA-MGM? by aboyko · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "RIAA" there is probably referring to the RIAA equalization curve. Simplified, you have to post-process the raw signal on a record according to that curve, because the original signal was written to the record with the inverse of that curve.

    4. Re:RIAA-MGM? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What word, "musicians"?

    5. Re:RIAA-MGM? by jdray · · Score: 2, Funny

      A Slashdotter steals lines from a deceased giant who had a passion for wrestling? Inconceivable!

      --
      The Spoon
      Updated 6/28/2011
    6. Re:RIAA-MGM? by viking099 · · Score: 1

      Considering it wasn't The Giant, but The Spaniard (Mandy Patinkin, who is, as far as I know, still alive) who said that paraphrased (and very poorly, I assume you) quote, it is rather inconceivable.

    7. Re:RIAA-MGM? by jdray · · Score: 1

      Right. I think it was Fezzik (the Giant) that said, "I don't think that word means what you think it means." My mistake.

      --
      The Spoon
      Updated 6/28/2011
    8. Re:RIAA-MGM? by PoPRawkZ · · Score: 0

      It wasn't Fezzik, I believe it was Inigo Montoya.

      --
      peace,
      -Grokent
  4. quality loss by Mister+Coffee · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Even if a lot of quality of the songs are improved a bit of authenticity of the songs is lost. The cracks and the spikes in a song can give it a certain charm.

    --
    "Who are you?"
    "Barf!"
    "Not in here, mister. This is a mercedes."

    - Space Balls (1987)
    1. Re:quality loss by jchawk · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "The cracks and the spikes in a song can give it a certain charm"

      I would agree with this comment however the point of this project isn't to just improve music quality, but to enable the Library of Congress to save many 1000's of recordings that are so delicate that even putting a record needle on them could cause unrepairable damage to the record!

    2. Re:quality loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Disagree, I don't mind poor fidelity recording in some cases, if that was how the master was made. Witness my massive collection of (decent) Dead bootlegs. But cracks and spikes are distracting and take away from the recording.

    3. Re:quality loss by Mister+Coffee · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Nowadays one can buy grammophone players with lasers instead of needles.

      --
      "Who are you?"
      "Barf!"
      "Not in here, mister. This is a mercedes."

      - Space Balls (1987)
    4. Re:quality loss by image · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Also, listen to the examples if you can. The first one is so covered in hiss and scratches from the old record that it is very hard to make out much detail to the music. The new technique seems to render a fantastic amount of fidelity. But don't worry, there is plenty of character left -- the original analog recording techniques were more than warm enough. The difference is that you can now hear the cylinder going around (when it was being recorded), rather than it being obscured by playback artifacts.

    5. Re:quality loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      ...and cleaning a record so that it can be played with a laser is far more damaging than playing it with a needle.

    6. Re:quality loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It may time to return to the Nixon tapes, and see if we can restore the mysterious 18.5 minute gap. Perhaps it is not permanently gone as some have thought. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/09/21/national /main235341.shtml

    7. Re:quality loss by argStyopa · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Ironically moving them from a medium that (however fragile now) has lasted scores of years to some format that will probably be outdated in 3 years, and stored digitally on optical storage media which, if it's not eaten by that South American fungus, will have a lifespan of a decade tops?

      Progress, anyone?

      --
      -Styopa
    8. Re:quality loss by SmackCrackandPot · · Score: 5, Funny

      The cracks and the spikes in a song can give it a certain charm.

      You can always put them back, if you really want to.

    9. Re:quality loss by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 2, Funny

      Even if a lot of quality of the songs are improved a bit of authenticity of the songs is lost. The cracks and the spikes in a song can give it a certain charm.

      Can't they be digitally added back in? Instant authenticity!

    10. Re:quality loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      No, the charm is an entirely different particle.

    11. Re:quality loss by Legume · · Score: 1

      They'll probably do something crazy like make a perfect digital copy before the media dies.

    12. Re:quality loss by julesh · · Score: 1

      Cheap CD-Rs stored incorrectly (e.g. not in a container that shields them from UV radiation) have a lifespan under a decade. Stored in a metal box in even (cool) temperature conditions and only handled infrequently, this is substantially improved. Using high quality media improves this still more. By making multiple copies and incorporating additional error correction information this could be increased beyond the availability of technology to read it.

      At this point the problem merely becomes format-shifting it when that particular problem arises.

    13. Re:quality loss by shimmin · · Score: 1

      Yes and no. For a long time, recording technology led playback technology by a significant margin. The old cylinders and discs contain a lot of sound quality that contemporary listeners couldn't appreciate. As playback devices have improved, so has the quality of the sound produced from playing back the same physical medium. So if we extract a high-fidelity signal from the medium, and you want to appreciate the low-fidelity playback that your grandfather did, it would be perfectly authentic to have your computer overlay an external noise track on the music; it would be a perfectly analagous process to what the phonograph did when it played back a track!

    14. Re:quality loss by jdray · · Score: 1

      What is the lifespan of a bit of information? Storage of bits can be handled many ways.

      --
      The Spoon
      Updated 6/28/2011
    15. Re:quality loss by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      [The cracks and the spikes in a song can give it a certain charm.] You can always put them back, if you really want to.

      I smell a business opportunity. Charge people $50 per disk to add scratches and nicks to them. Call it "e-nastalgia" or the like and create glossy brochures talking about the magic warm wonders of the "good 'ol day" sounds.

      But I simply let the dog and kids play with them in the sandbox for a few hours. The brats do the work, and I collect the money :-)

    16. Re:quality loss by smithmc · · Score: 1

      Even if a lot of quality of the songs are improved a bit of authenticity of the songs is lost. The cracks and the spikes in a song can give it a certain charm.

      Why, do you think the singer's voice cracked and popped like that when he sang in the recording studio? How do distortions and degradations of the original performance increase "authenticity"?

      --
      Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
    17. Re:quality loss by Luke+the+Obscure · · Score: 1

      I've got a VST plug-in that will do it aotumagically!

      http://members.tripod.com/PluginCult/grungelizer .h tm

      Now THAT my friend is progress.

    18. Re:quality loss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The artist never intended pops, clicks, or tape hiss! Michael Jackson never said "Oooh! They'll love the random cracks we put in Thriller!"

      The point of preservation is to make the most perfect copy we can get, not make--for example--a low-quality ogg file. If you want to add random noise to the playback at a later date that's your business.

    19. Re:quality loss by kylemonger · · Score: 1

      A few cracks and pop might add charm, but that original recording sounded terrible. Besides you can always put a few crackles back in; hip-hop artists do it all the time.

    20. Re:quality loss by rush22 · · Score: 1

      is it?

    21. Re:quality loss by rush22 · · Score: 1

      hehe. That IS an artifact. The fwshfwshfwshfwsh sound is an artifcat as a result of their process, not the cylinder spinning. (listen to the original, it ain't there)

  5. This may help by 3.5+stripes · · Score: 3, Interesting

    with the digital image restoration in the previous article, image is only half the equasion, having the sound properly restored would make a world of difference.

    --


    He tried to kill me with a forklift!
    1. Re:This may help by nsuccorso · · Score: 0

      Ole!

  6. Higgs Boson? You fools! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Haven't these maniacs ever watched Lexx?! Detecting the Higgs Boson particle will shrink the world to an ultradense particle, about the size of a pea!

    TV doesn't lie to me!

  7. How about digital? by PacoTaco · · Score: 2, Funny

    I wonder if these guys can help me with this cheap batch of DVD-Rs I bought.

    1. Re:How about digital? by jepaton · · Score: 0, Redundant

      I can't imagine what data you might need to restore... oh wait, this is slashdot and your data is flesh tone pink.

  8. Expensive record player by OwlWhacker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It seems a bit sad to think that the Higgs boson detector has been demoted to a record player.

    1. Re:Expensive record player by the_twisted_pair · · Score: 1
      I don't know, but I'm sure the good people over at Stereophile would see it the other way round...

      "The curious drop-out in the fifth bar turns out not to be Schnabel sneezing, but a rare neutrino interaction. Of course an inferior cartridge would just miss it completely..."

    2. Re:Expensive record player by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Urr? Sad to think the Higgs Boson particle is reduced to restoring fidelity to really early-tech audio recordings?

      Gimme a break! This is old-hat...we achieve breakthrus in our technology, and put 'em to use.

      I like flicking a button on a portable device, and finding that flame shoots out from one end...I gave up my flint & tinder a long ago.
      Being an audiophile & also a human-centric kinda guy, this invention seems OK to me.

      I only hope that physics begins to explore the secrets of Plato's Ideals sometime soon, so I can rediscover the joys of Ringo Starr's voice.

      While we're at it, maybe we can restore my 47-yr-old girlfriend's bod to its more natural & bodacious state?

    3. Re:Expensive record player by sparkler · · Score: 1

      Perhaps, but at least this application has immediate and worthwhile results.

    4. Re:Expensive record player by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually the process they are using is not the Higgs boson detector. The Article states that they are using a device that checked the silicon of the higgs boson detector for errors. But it still is very much an expensive record player.

  9. Improved quality? by Mike+Morgan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Perhaps the Library of Congress should have hired some acoustic engineers to do this job. The Berkeley Lab seems to have replaced one type of noise with another (random static with a pulsating hiss.) I'm not sure which is more distracting.

    --
    -USR1
    1. Re:Improved quality? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Exactly. While the cracking noise is almost gone, there is an audible loss in high-tone harmonics, which is pretty bad.

    2. Re:Improved quality? by Fratz · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I suspect those cyclic noises are actually worn into the physical media at this point. It's an old record and may have been played alot, or perhaps that was an artifact of its creation.

      If you do a noise filter in Audacity 2.0, using some of the quiet parts toward the end to get the noise characteristics, you can get a very clear-sounding result. You may want to try different levels of filtering. I only filtered a little, since the defaults were too much.

      --
      -- Fratz, human
    3. Re:Improved quality? by rush22 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Totally agree. Looking at the separate files in Cool Edit, you can easily see that in the "new and improved" version everything above 8000 Hz has been almost completely removed. The weird pulsating hiss is at this 'cut off point'. The only good thing in the new version is an apparently better recording of the high volume parts (less clipping-like static). Of course, in doing so, it lost all the high end and introduced (it can only be a digital artifact) a pulsating hiss. Maybe their technique is good as the only option to play unplayable records, but for restoration purposes, it is a joke... come to think of it, I'm going to make a joke about it in the main thread.

  10. Sheesh - All Around Wrong by pendragon · · Score: 5, Informative

    1). It's "Ledbelly"
    2). It's "Good Night Irene"

    1. Re:Sheesh - All Around Wrong by shine · · Score: 0

      I'd think that Pete Seger, who knew Leadbelly, would know. On the title of his book he says Leadbelly:

      http://www.hlmusic.com/petesoakbook.htm

      1 for 2 is not so bad.

      ~S

    2. Re:Sheesh - All Around Wrong by kfg · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And Ledbelly is, of course, the moniker of Huddie Ledbetter. That's why it's spelled that way. He got the knickname during his tenure in Sugerland Prison, for manslaughter. That would be his first tenure for manslaughter. Part of the Ledbelly legend is the way he got out of prison by singing.

      Huddie died in poverty in December of 1949. One month later Goodnight Irene hit number one on the charts (as recorded by The Weavers) and stayed there for longer than any song has since.

      Since that time other Ledbelly songs that have had great sucess on the charts include Black Betty, Midnight Special (written while in Sugerland, the Midnight Special was an actual train running out of Houston and prison legend had it that if it's headlight shone on you in your cell you would be released the next day. This was rather like saying that if you stuck your elbow in your ear you would be released the next day) and The Rock Island Line. Ledbelly was also a friend of Woody Guthrie. Woody's Roll on Columbia was written to the tune of Goodnight Irene (although Woody didn't realize this until Pete Seeger pointed it out to him).

      I really pissed off a barmaid one night when I ended my first set with that song. Her name was Irene. She hates that song. I found out why.

      Nice girl otherwise.

      Good night.

      KFG

    3. Re:Sheesh - All Around Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In any restoration there is a certain amount of guesswork that goes on. Adding a letter or two to the title is certainly acceptable.

    4. Re:Sheesh - All Around Wrong by Siener · · Score: 4, Informative

      1). It's "Ledbelly"

      No it's not. His surname was Ledbetter, but his nickname was Leadbelly. More info about his life can be found here. If you still think it's Ledbelly, look at the photo of his gravestone at the bottom of the page.

      If there are any slashdotters who don't know who the hell he is, you might know at least one song he wrote : Where did you sleep last night which was sung by Nirvana on MTV Unplugged

    5. Re:Sheesh - All Around Wrong by skwm · · Score: 3, Informative

      Many of his Library of Congress recordings have been released as "Lead Belly". Document Records "Complete Recordings of..." series are under the name "Leadbelly" His gravestone says "HUDDIE (LEAD BELLY) LEDBETTER"

    6. Re:Sheesh - All Around Wrong by orthogonal · · Score: 4, Informative
      Since that time other Ledbelly songs that have had great sucess

      But perhaps the most telling Leadbelly song is about the time when Huddie Ledbetter, beter known as Leadbelly, came to Washington D.C. to record for Library of Congress's Archive of American Folk Song.

      Huddie and Alan Lomax were denied accomodation at several hotels because the hotels wouldn't rent to an interracial group: Huddie was black and Lomax, co-founder with his father of the Library's Archive, and, was white.

      So Huddie, with Lomax's help, wrote "Bourgeois Blues", which begins:

      Gather round people, listen to me
      Don't try to make a home in Washington, D.C.

      It's a bourgeois town, it's a bourgeois town,
      I've got the bourgeois blues, I'm going to spread the news around.


      Huddie's gone now, and Alan Lomax died two tears ago, but the song, and their work, live on.

      And even after desegregtion, Washington D.C.'s still a bourgeois town, it's a bourgeois town.
    7. Re:Sheesh - All Around Wrong by yet+another+coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Where Did You Sleep Last Night?" was not written entirely by Leadbelly. It borrows heavily from a folk song often called "In the Pines." I once played it following the Leadbelly and Nirvana versions, but one musician recognized it from bluegrass. Others know it as "The Longest Train" or "The Longest Train I Ever Saw." The lyrics to some versions make much more sense than others, particularly regarding the decapitation verses.

      This mixing and changing of songs is and has been very common. The urge to be authoritative is very strong, but you ought to avoid it here. I have read Ledbelly, Lead Belly and Leadbelly without finding any truly convincing arguments about which is correct. Did he carry around buckshot in his belly? Was it just from Ledbetter? I do not know. With unwritten traditions, the roads often just peter out without leading anywhere conclusive.

    8. Re:Sheesh - All Around Wrong by kfg · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Yeah, that's the one I've been singing in my head since about halfway through writing the above post.

      Huddie's manslaughter charges were basically semi-bogus. There was something of a tradition in Texas ( and much of the south at the time) that if there was a general melee in a bar, and someone never got up again, when the police got there they arrested, tried and convicted the biggest, toughest looking black man who hadn't run away yet. Huddie was almost always the biggest and toughest looking black man in any crowd, and not prone to run from anyone or anything (Sugarland Prison is still probably the nastiest prison in America, and Huddie earned his knickname by being the thoughest man there). That's also what made it so easy for him to sing his way out of prison. Everyone knew he was just the stand up fall guy who took the rap for a killing that couldn't actually be attributed to any one person.

      It was racist, and hardly legal, but in an odd sort of way it kept the peace, because the public (both black and white) could pretend that justice had been done, if only in spirit, and I can't recall ever hearing that Huddie ever made any real complaints about it. And he might have actually had some hand in the killings, although in a modern court with a decent lawyer it's unlikely he would ever even have gone to trial. There was simply no evidence against him.

      But the peculiar racism of Washington really, really pissed him off. The city was completely (although entirely "unofficially") segregated, and there wasn't anyplace he and Alan could go to stay or eat together, either in a "black" place or a "white" place. Even in the deep south he'd never encountered anything like that. (Dr. King had much the same experience when he went to Chicago. The unofficial, but very real, segregation of the north was much more insidious than the official segregation of the south, and continues that way in many places. Yeah, it's still a "bushwa" town).

      Pete's still with us, but the last time I saw him (which was a few years ago) I was jolted into recognition of his mortality. Pete's always been the Dick Clark of folk music, and gave off a certain air of immortality. Other than a few more wrinkles he's always looked more or less like he did back in the 50's, and acted like it. All of a sudden he's started to look, and act, well, a bit old.

      Quoting Pete on Ledbelly:

      "One year he started having to use a cane to go on stage. His voice, always soft and husky when speaking, still rang out high on the melodies, but his hands grew stiffer and less certain on the guitar. Then one day he was gone, and we were left with regrets that we had not treasured him more."

      I'm afraid it's time to start treasuring Pete while we can.

      (I hope Pete doesn't read Slashdot)

      (Ok, really, good night. At least for me. Your diurnalage may vary. Lord knows mine does, all the hell over the place)

      KFG

    9. Re:Sheesh - All Around Wrong by orthogonal · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm afraid it's time to start treasuring Pete while we can.

      Yeah, I know. Recently I recall half listening to Folk Alley internet radio, which features a lot of Seeger's songs, and I though I heard the announcer comment hat "Pete was" something or another. I spent several sort-of-panicked, sort-or-resigned, sort-of-apprehensive minutes on Google news until I'd convinced myself Pete was still around to rabble rouse.

      He's almost a movement by himself.

      I saw that, even though he has that typical Leftist problem. I have a Seeger compilation (Pioneer of Folk) on which Seeger sings "Round and Round Hitler's Grave" and
      "Dear Mr. President" ("I hate Hitler...Now, Mr. President , we haven't always agreed in the past I know, but that ain't at all important now...We gotta lick Mr. Hitler...."
      and on the same compilation ""Washington Breakdown" ("Franklin D, listen to me, you ain't gonna send me 'cross the sea"" and "C for Conscription". (I think I mentioned thsi once before on Slashdot.)

      Of course, Pete's opinion on the desirability of fighting Hitler "matured" after Hitler's "Operation Barbarossa" commenced on 22 June 1941, the Hitler-Stalin Pact went down the memory hole, and Stalin jerked Comintern's strings 180 degrees.

      (On a personal note, I've always been about equally disgusted by the Stalinists and the Red-baiting McCarthyites (Joe, not Gene, of course). Stalin killed millions, but "Tail gunner" Joe was pissing on my constitution. The America Communists I've always seen as rather willing dupes who would have sold us into Uncle Joe's Gulags, but I've also admired them for all the shit they put up with for bucking trends in America, and for their support (whatever their motivation) for civil rights and workers' protections. And I love the music.

      I lost my copy of Pete's Songs of Hope and Struggle but I found a copy of Paul Robeson singing the 1944 version of the Soviet anthem. The tune is awfully rousing, and the lyrics are so boot-licking toward Stalin ("And Stalin our Leader, with faith in the people, inspired us to build up the Land that we loved."), especially given that it's on a album named Songs for Free men.

      I can't help, from my 21st century perspective, enjoying the irony in a macabre way, Robeson being vilified in this country for his idealism about a Soviet Russia, where at about the same time, as Solzhenitsyn tells us in Gulag Archipelago there was that local Communist Party rally where the applause for Stalin's name went on for thirty minutes because everyone was afraid to be the first to stop. Not to mention the anthem principally celebrates victory in the Great Patriotic War, a victory that almost didn't happen thanks to Stalin's purges of the Army and State in '37, a victory which happened only after Hitler and Stalin split Poland down the middle and Stalin destroyed the Polish elite at Katyn Forest and then at Nuremberg blamed Germany for the massacre.

      I have some Soviet recording of the anthem too --- big "proletarian" choruses of "New Soviet Men" as frightening in their raw-boned way as Hitler's blond-haired, fanatic-eyed Aryan poster boys. Still, I can enjoy the Soviet recordings, despite Stalin's 60 million victims, in a way I can't enjoy my copy of the Horst Wessel Lied or my few copies of SS marching songs -- those I only listen to occasionally when reading histories of the Nazi era. Does my hypocrisy shows too?)

      Sorry for rambling. Back to Pete.

      So I don't quite agree with his politics, but I love the spirit they represent. Even though that spirit was brutally misused in Soviet Russia, here in the U.S. the left did help bring about great things, especially the Civil Rights movement. Even knowing he was, to some degree, a "useful idiot". Because he also roused people to organize the AFL-CIO, and to march in Selma and he wrote Last train to Nuremberg! ("Do I see Lieutenant Calley?... Do I see the voters, me

    10. Re:Sheesh - All Around Wrong by Mr.+Slippery · · Score: 1
      Part of the Ledbelly legend is the way he got out of prison by singing.
      ...twice. When you sing your way out of prison, ladies and gentlemen, that's a blueman lifestyle. But when you sing your way out of prison twice, that's a legendary blueman lifestyle.
      --
      Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
      You cannot wash away blood with blood
    11. Re:Sheesh - All Around Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, the nickname "leadbelly" refers to his singing endurance. He could bellow song after song while on the chain gang doing prison labor. Hence, a stomach of "lead".

    12. Re:Sheesh - All Around Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Alas, Pete Seeger has gone the way of Stephen King.

  11. Re:Why WAV? by Gollum · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why not? Would you prefer MP3, perhaps or Ogg Vorbis?

    What's better than an uncompressed format for this sort of archival work? I don't think there was any mention of the sample rate in the article, but it seems to me that they could make it as high as they want to, given that they are generating it from a model of an analogue system.

    Obviously they are limited by the resolution of their scans, and the quality of their model, but it seems from the story that they have got both right already.

  12. Good thing(TM) by jdreed1024 · · Score: 5, Interesting
    It's great that they have come up with a non-destructive way of digitizing these recordings. This will make the recordings easier to distribute, and I hope that many people who could not otherwise hear these recordings will get to do so via their local library or something other method.

    On a related note, why does the "after" filename contain the word RIAA? What the hell do they have to do with this? The Library of Congress recordings were made by Alan Lomax (another great american folk singer), somewhere around 1940. If the RIAA gets to make money off this, I think I'm going to be sick. Though actually, now that I think about it, I believe the RIAA has some "standards" for music formats. Hopefully that's all this is.

    --
    There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
    1. Re:Good thing(TM) by azaris · · Score: 1

      The Library of Congress recordings were made by Alan Lomax (another great american folk singer), somewhere around 1940

      1940?!? I wonder what they were recorded on - acetate? There's much better quality recordings done in the 1920's that have been remastered using technology we've had for years.

      Or maybe the LOC hasn't stored these records properly?

    2. Re:Good thing(TM) by jdreed1024 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I wonder what they were recorded on - acetate? There's much better quality recordings done in the 1920's that have been remastered using technology we've had for years.

      That's precisely what they were recorded on, according to the article. That, and shellac, and wax. And it's not that we can't remaster them now. In fact, I have a CD of Leadbelly's LOC recordings. It's that this is a non-destructive way of remastering them. Prior to this, remastering them was merely playing them again. Granted it was in a controlled environment, with a near-perfect stylus and the record was painstakingly cleaned, but it was still playing them, and that is by definition destructive. Think of how this will change things. You can remaster something merely by taking a picture of it (yes, i'm oversimplifying). It will make remastering these recordings cheaper and more copies will be available (since the LOC doesn't have to worry about each remastering destroying the original)

      --
      There is no sig, there is only Zuul.
    3. Re:Good thing(TM) by Hater's+Leaving,+The · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "come up with", eh?

      Why do I remember seeing exactly this technology (as in non-contact vinyl
      reading) demonstrated on BBC's /Tomorrow's World/ back in the 1980s?
      We saw it actually demonstrated live, it wasn't just a theoretical idea.
      IIRC they played a Cliff Richard album, and IIRC they also, with great
      humour, scratched the fuck out of it for a second test, which the reader
      passed admirably.

      That was nigh on 20 years ago. It appears that the wheel has been
      reinvented...

      THL.

      --
      Keeping /. cynic density high since the fscking Kwhores/trolls arrived.
    4. Re:Good thing(TM) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is off-topic, but does anyone else notice that people are using "by definition" a little liberally, more than required in fact? This is going to be the new literally of the third millenium!

    5. Re:Good thing(TM) by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      what blows my mind is they spend huge $$$ to replicate a device that has been available to the general consumer for over 24 months....

      with a regular wintel PC (hell even a cheap one from 3 years ago) running a old copy of something loke cooledit could do the exact same job for much less money...

      what? did they even LOOK to see if there was a OTS solution before they spend Gobs of cash to do this?

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    6. Re:Good thing(TM) by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently it doesn't exist until the RIAA acknowledges it. Sort of like how it was all invented in the US, or it wasn't invented until it appeared in a Microsoft press release.

    7. Re:Good thing(TM) by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      what blows my mind is they spend huge $$$ to replicate a device that has been available to the general consumer for over 24 months.... with a regular wintel PC (hell even a cheap one from 3 years ago) running a old copy of something loke cooledit could do the exact same job for much less money... what? did they even LOOK to see if there was a OTS solution before they spend Gobs of cash to do this?

      Laser vinyl players don't even compare to what they're doing. Your comment is akin to asking why they're blowing so much cash an the Next Generation Space Telescope imaging array when consumer-grade digital cameras already exist. They're not aiming a laser at the disc and digitizing the flickering of the analog return, they're perfectly mapping the face of the disc in 3 dimensions, processing the image to remove scratches and imperfections, digitally simulating the movement of a stylus in the reconstructed grooves, and recording the simulated movement of the stylus. Sheesh, RTFA.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
  13. Mirror of WAV by paragon_au · · Score: 2, Informative

    0 posts and it down to going at 6kbps.
    Sure it'll be slashdoted soon.

    Orignal & Digital version

  14. I still hear static by donbrock · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The after version does have a much fuller and richer sound but I still heard a lot of background static. Can't this be filtered out?

    1. Re:I still hear static by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if you filter out the noise, you also filter out part of the signal - since this is an archival project, it's more important to preserve the exact state of the current media than to try to improve the perceived sound quality. the sound quality part is is a research area where small incremental advances are made every year, and big ones some years; the preservation part is well understood.

    2. Re:I still hear static by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, the idea is to pull out ever bit of audio information possible and archive it. If you want to post-process the data locally to remove that hiss (and any other audio in that frequency band), you can still do so, but the original should be kept pristine. After all, noise filtering is dramatically better now than it was 20 years ago. In another 50 years, I don't want an audiologist complaining about how great those 2004 re-masterings could have been if only they'd known about the Transflugian Transform and hadn't wrecked the archives with ham-fisted turn-of-the-millenium binary methods.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    3. Re:I still hear static by BetterThanCaesar · · Score: 2, Informative

      We did this in a signal processing project, where we scanned old recordings and extracted the music. We tried Wiener fitlerning, but settled on spectral subtraction. Listen in. The problem is (as an anonymous coward so wisely pointed out) that you inevitably remove some of the wanted signal as well.

      --
      "Stop failing the Turing test!" -- Dilbert
    4. Re:I still hear static by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I like this link to a poster of the process (328 kB), jpeg format

      Neato, thanks for mentoning your project.

  15. Woot! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Slashdotted a .gov! Soon we'll be able to hold the world's governments for ransome!

    1. Re:Woot! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nothing can Possiblye go Wrong!!

    2. Re:Woot! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh no! Now Slashdot will be investigated as a terrorist organization!

  16. Better, but far from perfect... by TheRealStyro · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Granted, it is better without all the static. But the flutter (shwush, shwush, shwush...) introduced is still distracting and a serious quality problem. Actually, the new version gives me a low scale headache from the constant flutter.

    --
    1. Re:Better, but far from perfect... by ryanvm · · Score: 1, Funny

      Actually, the new version gives me a low scale headache from the constant flutter.

      You sound like you're fun to hang out with.

    2. Re:Better, but far from perfect... by cascino · · Score: 1

      That "flutter" is the sound of the wax cylinder rotating at the time of the original recording. It just goes to show you how *good* this scanning technology is...

    3. Re:Better, but far from perfect... by rush22 · · Score: 1

      ...and the Americans are nowhere near the airport!

  17. It has been said before. by eclectro · · Score: 4, Funny


    Before the song is "Good Bye Irene".

    After the song is "Good By Webserver".

    The sound of this new song is unusually pure and quiet. My congratulations to the Berkeley team.

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
  18. Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I ran the first sample through noise reduction with an old copy of Cool Edit and got better results. None of that lame pulsing background noise either.

    1. Re:Big Deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can vouch for this. I ran this through Buzz. Simply an interpolation (noise reduction) and some EQ (graphic and parametric) take care of this nicely. It leaves a few pops, but it sounds better than the fancy schmancy one, and none of that nasty background crap either.

  19. Digital Needle by TwistedGreen · · Score: 5, Informative

    This reminds me of this project (which has been Slashdotted before) which can be done with a home scanner. But this new Berkeley method is obviously much more advanced.

    1. Re:Digital Needle by Myself · · Score: 1

      Ahh, good find. :) If I'd read your comment first, I wouldn't have had to google for it...

      The virtual gramophone is an awesome project and I hope someone with the requisite skills will pick it up and do something with it. There's a pile of 78's in the bottom of my grandma's victrola that I'd love to clean up nondestructively.

      Since all this stuff is out of copyright, there should be no problem sharing it for everyone to enjoy. Consider two records of the same music, damaged and scratched in different areas. Could the recordings from both of them be lined up and used to fill in each other's gaps?

    2. Re:Digital Needle by BillyBlaze · · Score: 1
      It should be possible. The program would have to go to great lengths to keep sync between the two recordings, however, because while you can't hear a hundredth of an rpm difference, it would cause the waveforms to get out of sync quickly. This wouldn't be as much of an issue if it was done optically.

      The person in that article isn't quite right about the stereo encoding. The groove is shaped like a V with a 90 degree angle. Each face of the V wiggles perpendicularly to its plane to encode that channel. This way, the channels are encoded symetrically, they are independent, and on a mono player, you get the sum of the channels. This wouldn't be an issue for 78's, which I don't think are stereo.

      You'd need a higher DPI scanner, and to get the best quality, try scanning the record in various orientations and adding them together - if the light angle isn't right, you'll see nothing even if there is a deep groove. You could also try coating the record with something reflective and squeegeeing it off so it stays in the grooves. Then the depth of the groove would control how bright it looks more reliably. You could still do stereo by looking at the inner and outer edges independantly.

  20. Noise != charm by tweakt · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Even if a lot of quality of the songs are improved a bit of authenticity of the songs is lost. The cracks and the spikes in a song can give it a certain charm.
    Sorry, I disagree. The spikes and pops are merely a function of poor recording quality, and doesn't represent anything about the original performance Actually, it's far more likely due to higher noise floor, subtle nuances in the music are actually lost forever. The only reason you feel it sounds more "authentic" is you're used to hearing it that way. When it comes to acoustic music (classical, jazz), the closer to capturing the sound as if you were sitting right there with the musician, the better. The only coloring of the sound that's sometimes desirable is from the acoustic properties of the venue in which they were performed if it was a live show.
    1. Re:Noise != charm by nanojath · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I have mixed feelings about this. On one hand I agree that excess noise is not signal, and the idea that something is more authentic because it's showing the age and limitations of its media is very questionable. I think it is true though that many methods of eliminating noise also end up eliminating some of the signal. I have a number of early CDs with relatively noise free but unfortunately flat, lifeless recordings that don't sound half as good as an old LP, scratches and all.


      But it seems like the methods for this are getting better and better. You're always walking a line, I think, when you start "extrapolating" information, and the more damaged a recording, the more of this you end up doing. It's all artifice in the end, I guess, but it does get you into interesting territory about recording... once it becomes digital it becomes totally fungible and who's to say what it "really" sounds like?

      --

      It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries

    2. Re:Noise != charm by theLime · · Score: 1

      Recorded music without cracks and pops is like Email without spam.

    3. Re:Noise != charm by timeOday · · Score: 1

      Next you're going to tell me people could see in color before the 50s!

  21. Re:Why WAV? by ajaxxx · · Score: 1

    What's better than an uncompressed format for this sort of archival work?

    FLAC.

    IYTM "better than a lossless format".

  22. Same Methods? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    By colliding two audio recordings together at near-lightspeed in an underground tunnel, physicists hope to uncover the much anticipated Higgs boson, or at the very least produce a half-decent Britney album.

    1. Re:Same Methods? by mdielmann · · Score: 2, Funny

      Colliding two Britney albums at high speeds makes them both better. Further research revealed that colliding a single Britney album against a brick wall improved that album to the same degree as colliding it with another Britney album. Grant proposals are being written up as we speak for extensive studies in this field, both with different celebrities and combinations of celebrities to see if this observation holds true, and under what circumstances.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
  23. interestingly by eclectro · · Score: 3, Interesting


    There is the laser record player.

    The cost is only $10k, plus $500 for a record cleaner.

    Anybody in slashdot land know of a cheaper version that us mere mortals might buy?

    --
    Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
  24. Scanning records by CastrTroy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    This reminds me of a project posted quite a while back. Somebody used a plain old scanner to scan old LP's and try to convert the picture to sound. Can't remember how successful he was, I know he got some sound, but I don't reallt think it was that close to the original.

    It's way too long ago to even thing of finding a link, but if anyone has it feel free to post it.

    --

    Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    1. Re:Scanning records by Jon+Abbott · · Score: 1

      Yes, I remember that as well -- practically everyone here on Slashdot cried "hoax!"... It appears that the joke is now on them. :^)

  25. big news by NixterAg · · Score: 4, Informative

    Besides the neat way the archiving is being done, this will help out the Library of Congress immensely in getting their archives digitized before the originals deteriorate to the point they cannot be archived at all. A few years ago, PBS (maybe on Nova) had a special about the digital restoration project at the Library of Congress. They were having to take special care to prioritize the works they wanted to save, as they didn't have enough manpower to digitize all of them before the original recordings completely rotted. Most of the recordings were one-of-a-kind, so much of the archives was expected to eventually be lost forever.

    They also emphasized about how they wanted digital version of the original recording, with all of the noise, clicks, and dropouts intact. After all, they are digitally archiving what they have, not restoring it.

    One of the biggest finds was an original recording of "This Land is Your Land" by Woody Guthrie with the following stanza intact:

    Was a big high wall there that tried to stop me,
    Was a great big sign that said, "Private Property,"
    But on the other side, it didn't say nothing,
    That side was made for you and me.


    I believe it's a one-of-a-kind and it was found on accident, as the archives literally have dozens of different "This Land is Your Land" recordings and it had previously been digitized before this version was found.

    1. Re:big news by NixterAg · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Here's a link with more information about the uniqueness of the recording:
      Woody Guthrie - This Land Is Your Land

    2. Re:big news by north.coaster · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's not a one of a kind, in the sense that the folk music community has known all along about Woody's alternative lyrics to the song. In fact Woody wrote several additional verses, as this link shows. Considering the state of politics back in the 1950's and 1960's, it's not surprising that these lyrics were not widely published (or performed). In fact, I know of some musicians in my own community today who refuse to sing these verses because of concern that they would offend some members of the audience.

      /Don

    3. Re:big news by nerdsv650 · · Score: 1

      This image may be of interest to those who've followed the topic as it has drifted. It is a scan from a picture of Woody's original manuscript for This Land is Your Land (formerly God Blessed America), complete with his corrections. Unfortunately I don't know who took the picture and digitized it so I can't give credit.

      -michael

    4. Re:big news by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of a sign I saw on a trail in an undeveloped area: "No trespassing. Private property." On both sides of the sign.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  26. Nice try by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    1). It's "Dexy's Midnight Runners" 2). It's "Come on Eileen"

  27. RIAA Equalization by north.coaster · · Score: 5, Informative

    Back in the good old days of vinyl records, RIAA Equalization was/is an industry standard for how music that is recorded on vinyl records is played back. The idea is to compensate for the fact that vinyl does not have a flat audio frequncy response.

    The link above explains it much better (and in more detail) that I can.

    \/Don

    1. Re:RIAA Equalization by arjay-tea · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not quite.
      Bass frequencies were attenuated before cutting the disk in order to put the grooves closer together on the disk. Treble frequencies were boosted, so that noise could be correspondingly attenuated by the playback reverse equalization.
      Some of the first CDs were made with the vinyl RIAA eq. by mistake. Boy were the artists pissed!

    2. Re:RIAA Equalization by dhowells · · Score: 1

      Bullshit. Vinyl does have a flat frequency response. If you read the article you linked to you would see that it was to drown out HF noise, not anything todo with the linearity or otherwise of the recording medium.

      --
      use Blunt::Instrument;
  28. Where can I get the recordings ? by modipodio · · Score: 1

    Anyone know if they are planning on selling them or if they will be available for download on archive.org or something?

    --
    __________________________________________________ "UNIX is a fascist state, Windows is a democracy.
  29. mod parent up by mcbevin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    While the news release makes what they're doing sound impressive, theres little to be proud of inventing a complicated expensive method to create something worse than a simple computer program can achieve.

    The 'lame pulsing background noise' or whatever you call it is really quite bad. I haven't tried putting the original through Cool Edit but it wouldn't surprise me it all if it does produce better results as the parent claims.

    Perhaps the technique will be improved, but the article should have been a bit more honest about the current state of the technology - its claimed results really don't match what you hear when you listen to the wavs. Reminds me of some wavs Microsoft supplied demonstrating the superiority of wma to some other format. Despite being samples picked by Microsoft to suite wma, the wma's sounded much _worse_ than the other format's. But their marketing obviously realised the simple fact that 99% of the readers wouldn't bother listening to the samples, but just assume that since the samples were there, the corresponding write-up must be credible.

    1. Re:mod parent up by Peale · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That 'lame pulsing sound' is the sound from when it was originally recorded. It's the sound of the wax cylinder spinning.

    2. Re:mod parent up by mcbevin · · Score: 1
      That would explain it nicely, however do you have any references for this?

      I read the paper published by the researchers and it contained this, which seems to be saying they don't know the cause of the 'lame pulsing sound':

      A background continuous noise (hiss) is present in the optical sample. The hiss is also slightly modulated by a signal at about 4 Hz. The origin of this is not completely known but it may be related to the particular differentiation algorithm, imaging fluctuations in the edge finding process, or to a latent physical feature of the record itself. A hiss signal is also present in the groove shape data before differentiation which may underlie the signal heard in the differentiated audio clip.

    3. Re:mod parent up by ThisIsFred · · Score: 1

      That 'lame pulsing sound' is the sound from when it was originally recorded. It's the sound of the wax cylinder spinning.

      You've probably got experience dealing with these old recordings and I don't. But, I've got a couple questions. Would they have made the master on a wax cylinder at that time? And wouldn't it show up as a low-frequency rumbling instead of a high-frequency hiss?

      --
      Fred

      "A fool and his freedom are soon parted"
      -RMS
    4. Re:mod parent up by rush22 · · Score: 1

      Listen to the original, you can't hear it. The lame pulsing is sound is a lame artifact.

  30. Re:Higgs Boson? You fools! by shadowcabbit · · Score: 2, Funny

    No, it won't! It'll just allow instantaneous interstellar travel when coupled with a computer that can calculate the timeshift differentials!

    Sheesh, all this wonderful anime and nobody learns anything from it...

    --
    "Why Subscribe?" Good question...
  31. A filtered version, and what RIAA really means. by Ndr_Amigo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I ran the resampled version through a quick noise removal and bass boost in Audacity to come up with this:

    http://www.enderboi.com/Ender_Filtered.mp3

    Obviously this was a quick job, as the sample was too short to come up with a decent noise profile.

    And to answer a quick question about the presence of RIAA in the filename.. Whilst conspiracy theories are fun here at /., and we all know Cowboy Neal did it anyway..

    I believe that 'RIAA' was a type of amplification method in old vaccum tube kits. I assume the RIAA in the filename is implying it was normalised based on the RIAA response curve.

    Disclaimer: I'm not old enough to know what I'm talking about. I'm sure there are some old-timer audiophiles around here that know the details tho :)

    1. Re:A filtered version, and what RIAA really means. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Yes I believe you used to use an expander coupled with a equalizer to get a better SNR. It was called a RIAA amplifier, and thats why you need a special phono input on an amplifier.

    2. Re:A filtered version, and what RIAA really means. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who are you calling old-timer, you whipper-snapper! *whacks ndr_amigo around the ears*. Back in my day we had to ... something I forgot. zzzzzzzzzz

  32. Re:Why WAV? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Why not? Would you prefer MP3, perhaps or Ogg Vorbis? What's better than an uncompressed format for this sort of archival work?
    How about a free lossless compressed format that's also streamable?
  33. Star Trek by hey · · Score: 2, Funny

    Anybody remember the episode of the original Star Trek where somebody was drunk and driving everyone crazy singing
    Good Night Irene thru the intercom.
    Now that's TV!

    1. Re:Star Trek by red+floyd · · Score: 2, Informative

      It wasn't "Good Night, Irene", it was "I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen". By Lt. Kevin Riley. In the episode, "The Naked Time".

      --
      The only reason we have the rights we have is that people just like us died to gain those rights. -- Cheerio Boy
    2. Re:Star Trek by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh yeah. Thanks.

    3. Re:Star Trek by Mike+Van+Pelt · · Score: 1

      Also in the science fiction side of this, G. David Nordley had a story in Analog back around 1994 or so called "His Father's Voice", which has someone inventing pretty much this technology in order to play a broken record his father had recorded.

  34. A little info re: that LoC collection by Onan+The+Librarian · · Score: 5, Informative

    The LoC collection of American folk music was certainly one of the strangest ventures ever carried out by the US government. In a way, it paralleled the ancient Chinese venture that resulted in the Shih Ching (Book Of Odes). Both govs sent recording agents into the country with the directive to collect the songs of the people. The Chinese had only ink & paper (or whatever they used for paper circa 800 BC), while their US counterparts (beginning in the 1920s, I think) utilized their day's equivalent of direct-to-disk recording, i.e., big in-field acetate disc cutters with acoustic recording gear. For the most part these intrepid researchers are unknown, but they collected an incredible mass of disparate music. Black & white music from the deep South and the Appalachians, cowboy music from the plains states, music from native American tribes... The impression I have is that they were told something like "Go ye forth, collect their songs so we may know the mind of the the people". Well, that's what the Chinese collectors did anyway...

    There are some well-known LoC recordings that have gained some fame, including a series of recordings by Leadbelly and an awesome set of music and reminiscences by Jelly Roll Morton. However, both those sets were recorded "in studio" and are not field recordings. They are magnificent though.

    Btw, I should make special mention of the Lomax family. Father John and son Alan were responsible for some remarkable recordings, including the work by Leadbelly and Jelly Roll. Alan also made the earliest recordings of Muddy Waters and some excellent recordings of Son House while working for the LoC. John was something of a Texas cracker (check out his dialog with Willie McTell on the LoC recordings), but he was a brave man going into some of the places he visited. He also wrote a very weird account of his acquaintance with Leadbelly in a book he wrote about the great self-proclaimed King of the 12-string Guitar..

    Some of the catalog has been available to the public for quite a while, but I doubt that catalog has listed anything close to the amount of material the LoC must have in their vaults. Those acetate masters won't last forever, and I'm glad to learn that an attempt will be made to save those recordings.

    Btw, I doubt copyright is an issue with this material. Unless I'm mistaken I believe all of it is in the public domain now. Perhaps someone else can clarify ?

    No recent US administration would dream of doing such a project now. They definitely would *not* want to do it to know the collective mind of the people...

    1. Re:A little info re: that LoC collection by guiscard · · Score: 1


      Did they record the music for the Yazoo series? Or some of it? (They have a great collection of early American recordings for those interested).

      I have an unlabeled cd a friend burned for me of Italian recordings from the 40's and 50's compiled by a Lomax. Did they travel that much? I know they did recordings in the Caribbean and Europe, but some stuff on the 'Secret History of Mankind' series is Central Asia, the Balkans, the South Pacific... Amazing albums. (And did the U.S. Govt. pay for all of it?)

      Just Curious.

    2. Re:A little info re: that LoC collection by Onan+The+Librarian · · Score: 1

      Yazoo may have released some of it, I haven't looked at their catalog for a long time. Wouldn't surprise me...

      Re: the Lomaxes: I don't know much more about them beyond the Leadbelly and LoC connections. Amazon lists a selection of books by or about John and Alan.

    3. Re:A little info re: that LoC collection by serbanp · · Score: 1

      It seems that there is an Alan Lomax's "Music of the World" series recently published. I have two albums (the France and Romania ones) and drooling uncontrollably when reading about what's available in the series (based on the inner cover listing).

      Serban

    4. Re:A little info re: that LoC collection by guiscard · · Score: 1


      I read here that Rounder intends on releasing a 100 disk set of Lomax stuff (I cant get on to the Rounder site to check, /.ed?).

  35. Re:Why WAV? by dnoyeb · · Score: 1

    Uncompressed is the best form for storage. 1 damaged bit in a compressed file will destroy much more data than 1 damaged bit in an uncompressed file. Of course, mp3 and ogg are not only compressed, they are lossy.

    If there will be compression, let it be on the hardware storage level and not the file level.

  36. Re:Why WAV? by Eccles · · Score: 1

    Why not [WAV]? Would you prefer MP3, perhaps or Ogg Vorbis?

    16-bit sampling is not the be-all, end-all of audio resolution. Hopefully whatever format they use for archiving is, at a minimum, 96k/24 bit, just like the movie digitizers are scanning for 4000 line resolution even though they make DVDs with 1/8 that resolution.

    --
    Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
  37. They also ruined the whole EQ by tentimestwenty · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The "clean" version they've made is really a disgrace to any historian or music lover. The original was actually recorded very well and has a near perfect equalization. It sounds very natural and it's rare to hear the treble so extended on early recordings. The new version has no highs and the mid range is filled with gaussian noise and is far too prominent. Even a half-deaf recording engineer would notice that right away. Sure, the clicks and pops are reduced, but the music is completely ruined as well. I just hope they're keeping high resolution originals as well as these hacked versions.

  38. Re:Why WAV? by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 2, Informative

    WAV is not necessarily 16 bit. There are 8, 16, 24, and 32 bit WAVs (that I've seen) and I suspect the format can handle higher bitdepths. I know it can handle 192/24.

    --

    ---
    Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
    (I read with sigs off.)
  39. Re:Why WAV? by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

    ARCHIVAL.

    You NEVER compress your archival files if you're serious about it.

    --

    ---
    Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
    (I read with sigs off.)
  40. This is important work by Siener · · Score: 3, Informative

    Whether you like rock, blues, jazz or R&B they all have their roots in the early part of the 20th century among the poor black population in the southern parts of America. A big part of that history is already lost for ever.

    I am a big fan of early blues. My favourites are Leadbelly, Blind Lemon Jefferson and Robert Jordan

    Indecently, Robert Jordan is the guy who supposedly sold his soul to the devil one night at the crossroads in exchange for his guitar playing skills. This story gave rise to the whole blues, rock etc. comes from the devil story.

    You can find a lot of their music on p2p networks - it's worth checking out. You'll be surprised how many songs you recognise - they have been copied and covered so many times.

    1. Re:This is important work by f00zbll · · Score: 3, Informative
      I might be mistaken, but are you referring to Robert Johnson? As in the same Mr. Johnson who went to the cross road and sold his soul to the devil. The legend goes that he couldn't play a lick. Then suddenly one day Johnson shows up and is able to play some amazing blues. The movie cross roads uses that legend. Many modern blues musician refer to Robert Johnson, like Eric Clapton's "Me and Mr. Johnson".

      Robert Johnson was an innovator of blues guitar and did lots of things like open tunings. Many musicians try to immitate him. Some are successful and most are not. Robert Johnson's style of blues is still unique today, because of how he sang, tapped his feat and played the guitar.

    2. Re:This is important work by Siener · · Score: 1

      Thanks for pointing it out. Slight brain fade there on my part

    3. Re:This is important work by Doctor+Crocodile · · Score: 1

      >> The legend goes that he couldn't play a lick. Then suddenly one day Johnson shows up

      you make it sound like an overnight conversion.... reliably (well at least according to more than one set of sleevenotes) he was a struggling and strictly local performer, stopped performing for a year or more and then came back with new material and got a following. He never endorsed the 'devil' stories, but he referred to the devil (usually as a female) in several songs.

    4. Re:This is important work by mjprobst · · Score: 1

      Actually that story was not about Robert Johnson but rather about a different Johnson, though the two may have known each other, and the legend has deeper roots than that. Go check it out at luckymojo.com

    5. Re:This is important work by Doctor+Crocodile · · Score: 1

      good link, in fact good site.
      There's a discussion of the legend in a conversation in an Elmore Leonard book, Tishomingo Blues.

  41. link to the paper by mcbevin · · Score: 1

    Heres the link to the PDF and some more samples they provide:

    http://www-cdf.lbl.gov/%7Eav/

  42. Re:Higgs Boson? You fools! by Naffer · · Score: 1

    I'm going to venture a guess that you're refering to "Martian Successor Nadedesico" without even clicking your link! I just watched it a few weeks ago and it was the first thing I thought of when I saw the headline.
    Lets Gekiga In!

  43. Bullshit. by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've got images of the Windows 95B CD in my home directory. I don't see that going anywhere anytime soon, and I'm not even trying for preservation.

    Listen, you can by an SDAT tape drive that can read DAT tapes that were invented 15 years ago, and consolidate 10 of them into one new cartridge. And if you want to be safe, you make a copy and send that to a different site. And in 10 years there'll be a new generational standard that's backwards compatible, so you'll do another transfer then. Hell, you should be making multigenerational copies every few years and checking checksums between generations of media to make sure you're not propogating errors.

    And why will this be possible? Because companies NEED THIS. They need to keep records for ages for various purposes. So the situation you detail will never happen if the custodians of the digital archive are just SLIGHTLY aware of the marketplace. Better than just leaving them to rot, eh?

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
    1. Re:Bullshit. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      omg!

      *fapfapfap*

  44. baka baka. by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 2, Funny

    STFU
    - ruri

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
    1. Re:baka baka. by shadowcabbit · · Score: 1

      Strange moderation... I don't see this as flamebait. It's actually kind of clever.

      If you were actually insulting me, then I guess I really deserved it. But I doubt it.

      --
      "Why Subscribe?" Good question...
  45. Only Step One by arjay-tea · · Score: 3, Informative

    Removing the noise is only the first step.
    A complete restoration would compensate for the transfer functions of the microphone and other recording equipment used for the particular recording. Need to archive and preserve all the recording equipment also!

  46. Mod parent down by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cool edit destroys the original signal in an attempt to filter out noise. For archival purposes, they don't want to do that. This process gets rid of noise without altering the original signal.

  47. Mod parent down... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    for he is a moron.

  48. Goodnight.... by the_twisted_pair · · Score: 1
    Her name was Irene. She hates that song. I found out why.

    You mean her mother doesn't let her seen guys?

  49. Re:Only Step One: MOD UP! by Onan+The+Librarian · · Score: 1

    Excellent points and suggestions. Do you know where that gear can be seen these days ? I wonder if the LoC displays it ...

    In the 1970s someone published a series of small paperbacks about interesting aspects of blues history. The series included John Fahey's graduate thesis on the music of Charley Patton. It also included a volume focused on the blues labels, and how and by whom the material was collected, recorded, and distributed. Interesting history...

  50. Th eRIAA response by the_twisted_pair · · Score: 2, Informative
    ..is fundamental to the ability to record music on vinyl.

    Basically, it involves the master being equalised with the bass rolled-off by (up to 20dB) and the treble boosted by a similar amount. On playback, the 'phono' input on your amplifier ampplies inverse EQ to re-create the original signal.

    The reasons are two-fold:

    The initial treble emphasis followed by roll-off reduces the contribution of record surface noise from the mechanical transcribing.

    The bass rolloff means that the excurions required by the cutter (and the sylus in playback) are kept within reasonable limits - and enable closer groove spacing, allowing a useful recording time. Note there's a direct tradeoff in LP mastering between playback time per side and sound quality, depending on how 'hot' the signal to be cut - more groove excursion requires more space.

    The RIAA's contribution was to declare a standard for the EQ curves, when before c.1948 each record company would do more-or-less its own thing.

  51. Johnson not Jordon by Siener · · Score: 1

    Sorry .. very embarrased by that one. Of course it's Robert Johnson. Robert Jorden is the author of the Wheel of Time books ... nothing to do with the blues

  52. CBC (Canada) has a smilar restoration project by farrellj · · Score: 2, Interesting

    CBC has been restoring their archives using a program/workstation called NoNoise. It has given us some wonderful resurections of Glen Gould's early works at the CBC, and allowed the band FM (inc. Nash the Slash) to "master" the CD release of their seminal Jazz/Rock Fusion album "Black Noise" from virgin vinyl...since someone stole the master tapes from the Canadian National Archives.

    ttyl
    Farrell McGovern

    --
    CAN-CON 2019 - Ottawa's only book oriented Science Fiction Convention! October 18-20, Sheraton Hotel, Ottawa, Canada h
  53. Evolution by poptones · · Score: 2, Interesting
    The thing is, they still have the high resolution scans of the recordings. Playing music from digitized pictures of recordings is not new at all, this being only one more step in the evolution. But now that the project has more mainstream attention and funding, the LOC will be creating an archive of many digitized recordings that might otherwise have been lost due to their having been written off as "unplayable."

    Like all technology, this will surely improve. And, as it does, those digital pictures can be "replayed" again and again - even after the original source has decayed to a puddle of jelly.

  54. Missing the point by arn@lesto · · Score: 1

    If the digital image of the recording grooved is preserved in the LoC that's a wonderful result. As we get better at removing the noise, and modeling the original recording technology, the quality of the available reproductions should get better.

    On the other hand, if all they end up archiving is the result of the image+model+noise reduction into 16bit
    CD wav tracks then we've really gained very little. Only capturing 2004's reproduction technology.

    Articles are a little unclear about which is being archived.

    --
    - AndrewN
  55. Boson? Oh... by HiggsBison · · Score: 1
    Thought I'd made the news. Never mind.

    Of course, if you want to avert disaster, we could reverse the polarity of the boson flow, but that might be dangerous!

    --
    My other car is a 1984 Nark Avenger.
  56. For those who can't get through to the samples... by Anixamander · · Score: 3, Funny

    The second one sounds just like the first one, except with Puff Daddy going "Unhhh, Unhhh" over top of it.

    --
    Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball(TM)
  57. Netspacian by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Hey!! I was a Netspace client for quite a while, but I wanted to upgrade to broadband. I searched and searched and searched. Eventually I concluded, for my purposes, that Internode was the cheapest and most suitable. These days I am on a high end plan. 1.5Mbit/256k, 32GB/mo. (only monitoring of download traffic. Upload is unmetered.)

    Here are the prices.

  58. Not really by poptones · · Score: 1
    RIAA EQ wasn't standardized until the 1950's. And even then there were some holdouts - early preamps all have "eq knobs" for playing back LPs, as each record publisher had their own standard they insisted was superior (most likely due to the fact they didn't have to pay an licensing fees on their own standard tech).

    And implimenting such a curve digitally is an essentially trivial exercise, so I fail to see how that would be an issue here. Anyone who is capable of extracting high quality audio from the PICTURE of a record groove is surely going to be well prepared to apply whatever EQ the publisher applied to the recording... even if that "equalization" came from the acoustic resonances of an artist bellowing directly into a recording horn.

  59. Undulating noise in result by karmajudgment · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Very interesting results! Obvious musical features masked by pops and crackles in the original "Goodbye Irene" are revealed in this result.

    But I am curious -- there is a 4-5Hz broadband undulation in the result signal which does not, but I could be mistaken, sound like motor noise from the original disc recording. The undulating noise sounds like a digital artfact. Perhaps this noise relates to the digital filters used to process the images?

    1. Re:Undulating noise in result by rush22 · · Score: 1

      imho it's a digital artifact.

  60. It's not an insult coming from Ruri-chan. by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1
    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
  61. ***CRUNCH*** by Ayanami+Rei · · Score: 1

    That was the sound of your nuts.

    Now you can mod me flamebait.

    --
    THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
  62. Spectral revelations about the result sound by karmajudgment · · Score: 5, Informative
    The following judgments are based upon my listening, and my viewing of the result sound of "Goodbye Irene" in spectral form. The following three images are spectrograms of the result "Goodbye Irene". Each image has a different peak threshold, whereas all the images share the same minimum threshold of -120dB.

    Result sound viewed with -42 threshold
    Result sound viewed with -60 threshold
    Result sound viewed with -42 threshold

    And the following image is a spectrogram of the original "Goodbye Irene" file:

    Original sound viewed with -42 threshold

    Each of these spectrograms was computed using 1024 point Discrete Fourier Transforms with a factor of 8 overlap. The dimensions of the images are unlabeled, but provide a frequency range of 0Hz - 22050Hz along the vertical axis, and approximately 344 horizontal pixels represent one second of time. Darkness represents the magnitude of the signal at a particular measured frequency.

    With significant interest, I can perhaps label these axes for easier reading. Simply keep in mind that the top of the vertical dimension represents 22050 Hz.

    Given the sound quality of the result sound provided, utilizing 16-bit quantization with a sampling rate of 44.1Khz is more than adequate. But while the result is promising, it is hardly archival quality in my opinion, due to the obvious digital artifacts.

    The dynamic range of this particular music is confined by musical convention and the microphone technology available for the recording. The theoretical 96dB of dynamic range availed by 16-bit quantization is more than sufficient to represent the dynamic range of this particular music (and many others) recorded with similarly early microphony and disc-cutting technology.

    The frequency range of the music does not appear (in this result mind you) to have significant musical information above an approximate (but conservative) 11000 Hz. The frequency range availed by a sampling frequency of 44.1 KHz is more than adequate to quite faithfully represent this music. To significantly reduce the broadband pops and crackles in the recording, high frequency information is lost. Further, the recording technology available at the time probably could not accurately transduce such frequencies from the original performance either.

    The spectrogram reveals that the undulating noise in the result sound occurs at a nearly precise 5Hz. It also reveals that this "noise" is obviously an artifact of the restoration process; it really isn't noise, but the result of a time-varying filter which cuts gaussian lobes into the spectrum of the music from approximately 4000Hz to 9200Hz in a manner somewhat a kin to a wah wah pedal. The lobes can be seen clearly in all of the spectrograms I provided, but they appear more stark as the peak threshold of the spectral plots decrease. Their duration is quite close to .05 seconds.

    In my opinion, archives should preserve physical recording media as long as possible to allow transduction techniques to mature. I find the 5Hz filtering artifact present in this result to make the current state of this particular optical transduction process unacceptable for archiving. It would be a shame to replace physical media with music colored with such avoidable artifacts. I am sure that such artifacts can be alleviated and that optical scanning of phonograph records (discs and cylinders) has great promise as a transduction technique.

    1. Re:Spectral revelations about the result sound by karmajudgment · · Score: 1
      The third spectrogram link in my last post has an obvious mistake. The image linked to is correct, and it should read:

      "Result sound viewed with -76dB threshold"

      All of the numbers shown in these links refer to audio decibel values.

    2. Re:Spectral revelations about the result sound by rush22 · · Score: 1
      In my opinion, archives should preserve physical recording media as long as possible to allow transduction techniques to mature. I find the 5Hz filtering artifact present in this result to make the current state of this particular optical transduction process unacceptable for archiving. It would be a shame to replace physical media with music colored with such avoidable artifacts. I am sure that such artifacts can be alleviated and that optical scanning of phonograph records (discs and cylinders) has great promise as a transduction technique.
      I agree. The introduced artifacts are totally unacceptable. If the record cannot be played at all, and this is the only option, then this could be a good way of playing the audio on those records. However, as a restoration technique, it is undoubtedly flawed. Noise filters have come a long way. While reducing static as much as surface scanning may not be possible using a filter, a normal record player does not introduce new artifacts which are just as hard, if not harder, to remove.

      I give the process a B- as a player, a D- in restoration, and a C+ for effort. Effort would have been higher, but optical scanning, according to another post I read on here, was invented a long time ago.
  63. Re:Why WAV? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Boo-hickey. Ever heard of CRC? And redundancy?

    This is how you plan it:
    1. Collect the bits you need, and only the bits you need
    2. Secure them with checksums and redundancy
    3. PROFIT!

    And anyone that says "MP3 is lossy" categorically, is being vague and needs to know the difference between saying "MP3 uses lossy data compression" versus "MP3 never transparently compresses". Because the second one is not true always. When done properly, an MP3 can and will sound like the WAV/AIF original. Pick the audiophile equipment of your choice and do a blind test. The point is, you have to select the right information to throw away, not the wrong info, because your brain actually cannot hear it. So you model the response curve correctly and give the encoder enough bits as required frame by frame, etcetera; this means something like selecting '--preset extreme'.

    If you're going to do something other than listening to the audio, such as re-editing and processing it, then you shouldn't throw away any information. Use FLAC instead.

    But in most cases, storing unnecessary data that you're not going to use, requires you to compromise in other areas. You know that saying that says "Nobody ever gained any quality with compression"? The comeback is "But you can start with higher quality and compress that instead".

    Whether that means higher sample frequency, greater sample depth, longer recordings, less disk space requirements, reduced space requirements, more versatile archival, faster work or lower budgets, your archive WILL stand to benefit from compression. FLAC or MP3.

    CK.

  64. pictures of records. by ph43thon · · Score: 5, Insightful


    How come it seems that no one is mentioning that they are mapping the surfaces of these records? That's the interesting part. That's why they are able to extract the audio from these records. They are essentially "taking photographs" of records and using a software program to simulate a needle traveling through the grooves. Removing pops and hisses is just run of the mill filtering (be it old high-pass, low-pass or newer wavelet techniques). This could be a neat new thing for record junkies to keep from futzing up their old records. Make a 3d model of the record then simulate it playing in a virtual record player.

    Isn't that the amazingly cool part??

  65. Do this yourself for only $10k by Seago · · Score: 2, Informative

    I don't get it. Why do people at Berkeley need a grant to re-invent technology that has already been comercialized by people from Stanford in the early 80's? http://www.smartdev.com/LT/laserturntable.html

    1. Re:Do this yourself for only $10k by dtfinch · · Score: 1

      My mod points just expired.

  66. Weavers, not Leadbelly! by Pinky3 · · Score: 1

    Didn't anyone even listen to the sound clip? When did Leadbelly become a woman?

    As mentioned in the press release, the clip is from the Weavers 1950 recording.

  67. Re:Why WAV? by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 1

    Considering half of my degree was spent working with coding and communications, yes, I have.

    Here's the problem with what you just suggested:

    If you throw away the bits you don't need, and then add checksums and redundancy, you've eliminated most of the point of the initial compression. Archival work is always done with uncompressed media; redundancy is then added. Considering that a good archive is then going to proceed to add even more redundancy in storage (you don't store one copy of the data when you can store two, you don't store all your data in one place, etc, etc, etc) the minimal savings FLAC might add is more than outweighed by the time spent compressing it in the first place.

    MP3 *is* lossy, by definition. MP3 can transparently compress, but that's beside the point, and for archival, you play the 'better safe than sorry game'. If you want to think of it as 'Someday in the future super-mechanized humans will be able to hear 40kHz tones', that's cool, but in the meantime, archivists will save each and every piece of data they can. It's like saying to an archivist "Just type in the text from that book, you won't need the actual layout of text on the page." You'll get laughed at.

    FLAC is arguable. It's a trade between disk requirements and computation requirements. But for archival, you don't throw away any data you don't absolutely have to.

    --

    ---
    Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
    (I read with sigs off.)
  68. Egads, what do you want? by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1

    16 bit sound has a signal-to-noise ratio as good as 98 dB and a bandwidth that can be better than most people can perceive. The LoC recordings probably could not do better than 45 dB SNR, with a very peculiar frequency response, in monaural. Even with very good noise reduction techniques, I'd be surprised if the resultant SNR can exceed 65 dB without destoying the smaller overtones.

    --
    Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
    1. Re:Egads, what do you want? by arn@lesto · · Score: 1

      I totally agree with you that CD quality is better than most people can perceive.

      I'm not complaining about the 16bit 44KHz recording but rather the current state of removing the scratches and
      removing the recording device noise. They've only just developed the technology. Who's to say that in 10 years we don't realize they had a bug in the tech (unheard of I know) and we could do better.

      If all that they archive is the resulting 16bit restoration and not the images of the original vinyl recording then I still think we're not doing the right thing.

      --
      - AndrewN
  69. Re:Why WAV? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's wrong with compressing with flac? Being lossless and all.

  70. Re:mod parent up? RTFA! by gizmonic · · Score: 1

    Since you obviously did not RTFA, I will attempt to explain.

    Most old recordings on disc and cylinder are extremely fragile. In some cases, simply handling or moving them involves the risk of destruction, let alone actually sticking a needle to them. Here's a link to the old Tech TV clip to illustrate.

    What the scientists did was to image the records without actually touching them, and generate the recordings that way. It is quite an impressive feat, actually. Sure, your little sound editor can clean it up real nice, but you've got to get the recording into a digital format first, and that's what this is about.

    You, the grandparent poster, and whoever the hell modded you guys up all seem to have completely missed the point.

    --
    WWJD?
    JWRTFM!
  71. Pre-Phonograph Recordings by kkrs · · Score: 2, Informative

    In the 1860s, a man went around "recording" things with glass disc coated with carbon black and a needle attached to a megaphone that scratched the carbon off when someone spoke. They were curiosity items, since there was no way of playing them back, but the inventor got some famous people, including President Lincoln, to make them. This technology could let us hear them. Also, laser technology for reading LPs was available at the very end of the LP era, and is still being sold, at astronomical prices, today ($8-14K). See http://www.elpj.com/ I've read that it's not very good at eliminating tics and scratches.

  72. Re:Why WAV? by CaseyB · · Score: 1
    The comeback is "But you can start with higher quality and compress that instead".

    To which the archivist replies: "You have a higher quality source? Why the hell didn't you give me that in the first place?"

  73. Maybe, maybe not by yet+another+coward · · Score: 1

    A quick, easy googling reveals several conflicting ideas about how he got his nickname. You committed the very error I warned against, trying to tell everyone how it really is without providing the least smidgen of evidence. Do you have any evidence that favors your explanation and rules out the others?

  74. Get it right by Any+Web+Loco · · Score: 1

    If you're going to do it, do it right:

    "You keep using that word. I do not think it means, what you think it means.

  75. Downloadable Higgs Boson Detector by rush22 · · Score: 1

    Download detector here

    Instructions to detect Higgs Boson Particle:

    To detect the particle, first open up your recording. Click the "Effects" tab, go to "Off-Line Effects". Then click on "Noise Reduction > Click/Pop Eliminator". Click OK. Then Click on "Noise Reduction > Hiss Reduction". Click on "High Hiss Reduction". Click OK. Finally, click on "Edit > Convert Sample Type" then change "Sample Rate" to 8000 Hz. Click OK. Click Save. If you successfully detect the Higgs Boson particle, then you should hear a weird pulsating static in your audio file. Otherwise you've just ruined your audio file.

  76. Re:For those who can't get through to the samples. by kilocomp · · Score: 1

    Puff Daddy? Try P. Diddy. Puff Daddy is so yesterday...we would probably have to use this restoration process on the Puff Daddy CDs.

  77. Re:mod parent up? RTFA! by mcbevin · · Score: 1

    What you say is indeed true. However the bone we were picking was with the way the article represented the results - as if the technique not only allowed recordings to be made from old fragile discs without harming them, but also that it made better quality recordings than could be made using normal methods of reading the discs.

    The article provided two WAVs - one taken from an original recording and one from their new method, and stated that the latter was better quality. This is the point we are disputing. I agree that the technology may still have merit given that it may allow reproduction from otherwise unreadable discs, however the quality of its readings will still have to be greatly improved if these reproductions are to have much value.

  78. BOON TO UNIVERSITY OF ALASKA by Lotharjade · · Score: 1

    I can see this being a boon for our local University of Alaska. In one or two of their librarys they have archived years of Alaskan recordings. Much of our states history spans the years when radio, recordings and TV were starting up. These recordings also need saved and this Tech will probably greatly help them. They have the same problem with recordings that are to old to run under a reader. :D

    --
    Party at O'zorgnax's Pub! Buy me a Slurmtini aye?