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IT Workers Not Eligible for Overtime in New Rules
bjarvis354 writes "The San Diego Union Tribune is reporting that the Department of Labor Secretary Elaine Chao unveiled new rules that seem to specifically target IT workers and other white collar workers for exemption from overtime pay. The Oneonta Daily Star claims that 'According to new exemption tests, the employee isn't guaranteed overtime pay if primary duties involve office or non-manual work,' and 'Computer employees are not guaranteed overtime pay if they make $455 a week, or if their hourly rate is $27.63. Affected employees include computer systems analysts, programmers, software engineers or anyone with a similar title.'"
I don't see how this changes anything? Most IT workers never got overtime, of course we have very flexible schedules so its a good tradeoff I suppose.
I could be wrong, but I was first in IT back in 1996, and this was the case back then (In NC). This is most definitely not news to me. I was in IT for almost 7 years, and I never got paid a dime of overtime (but the hourly rates I was getting paid were already obscene).
For all the difficulty and struggle that comes with it, it's a good time to be a contractor or self-employed.
They (some dept. in the govmn't) also put out a press-release type thing months ago instructing employers how to avoid overtime pay under general circumstances. Maybe someone could help me out and dig it up...
Your government, always fighting for the little guy instead of big business. Gotta love it.
My Webcomic: Asylum on 5th Street
God, that such a wrong headline. RTFA.
On NPR yesterday it was reported that only about 100,000 people would be affected by the new changes. If IT folks aren't eligible then that reported number is much too low.
This sucks. I think that if you get an hourly wage you should get overtime pay, regardless of any other factors, if you work overtime.
"Drug related crime" is a misnomer, "prohibition related crime" is the more accurate and correct phrase.
Once again, typically for Slashdot, the headline is very inaccurate. It's not that IT workers aren't eligible for overtime pay, it's just that it's no longer guaranteed. If your employer wants to pay you overtime, that's still their prerogative, not to mention a good idea for retention. Believe, there are folks out there earning overtime for IT work that this will not affect at all.
http://www.aflcio.org/yourjobeconomy/overtimepay/
blakespot
-- Heisenberg may have slept here.
iPod Hacks.com
I repeat, the overtime rules were reworked at the last minute!
The Bush administration on Tuesday pulled back from a planned overhaul of the nation's overtime rules, allowing more white-collar workers -- including those earning as much as $100,000 a year -- to continue collecting premium pay if they log more than 40 hours a week.
From The Oregonian
"Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
"Workers may still get overtime pay if they earn between $23,660 and $100,000 and work more than 40 hours per week."
I don't want to hear any complaints if your making over 100k a year. If your making less thank 23,660 a year I'm confused too.
"According to new exemption tests, the employee isn't guaranteed overtime pay if primary duties involve office or non-manual work."
The people who have to make $100k are the people who aren't exempted.
Salaried, AKA Exempt Employees, are exempt from overtime pay. If you have a contract for $60K per year and no other stipulations you should not expect additional pay for working over 40hours per week.
Employees that are on an Hourly wage get paid hourly. This new law is saying that if your wage is over this $20 mark, you do not have a right to earn time and a half, but you will still get paid on your hourly wage. If you work 60 hours you get paid for 60, not 70 (40 + 20 + (20/2))
Companies are required to have no more than 50% staff on Exempt status (ratio may change from state to state)
Post: Sigged, for your pleasure.
$455 a week=$1820 a month=$21840 per year.
:)
So there are 48 weeks in your year?
$455/week x 52 weeks = $23,660/year
Your point is still valid, after taxes that's not a whole lot of money on which to live.
That probably refers to people making at least $27.63/hour who do not work enough hours/week to break $455.
Careful. The people who had their puppet put this into play also have said that they consider a Teacher's Union a group Terrorist Orginization, I doubt they'd care one bit about calling a IT Union a Terrorist Orginization.
this has been happening for years...last time i got paid overtime, i was working at a liquorstore doing inventory i havent seen a penny for any of my overtime hours since working in IT
"The exemption for employees in computer occupations does not include employees engaged in the operation of computers or in the manufacture, repair or maintenance of computer hardware and related equipment."
Systems Administrators are still non-exempt. Programmers with 'high skill level' are not.
-- dieman - Scott Dier
See Techs Unite.
Religion is for people afraid of going to hell.
From Misleader.org
In a move designed to blur the issue, the Administration today said it was revising its previous effort to terminate overtime protections for 8 million workers. But even by the Bush Administration's own admission, the "new" regulations will mean that tens of thousands of lower-income workers will be cut off. Opponents of the Administration's plan say that the revisions would still cause problems for mean millions. The regulations are so bad for workers that some state legislatures have even rushed through legislation to block them.
That means you, yes you Joe Wilson are no longer eligable for overtime. People who charge whole dollar amounts and don't compute their bills to the nearest penny are not affected.
Because you'll get fired if you don't. It's easy to find employees - big corporations go through working people like candy bars. But, it's hard to find a good employer. These kind of 'laws' just make things more difficult for the common man (or computer nerd), and easier for their superiors who already get paid more.
Doesn't make any sense at all if you ask me. Not like it matters, IT's are already nothing more than slaves to the machine!
WashTech is the union for computer professionals.
Well During Clinton's reign, anyone with computer in their job description were NOT covered by the Dept of Labor regs, but were covered under the dept of commerce!
So this is not a new issue, but a continuation of the same standings.
I was beat out of overtime on Labor Day weekend of al times.
So quit your fucking liberal bedwetting and deal with it.
Seems to me that most blue-collar workers put down their tools at the end of the day and walk away from the work.
I agree.
Seems to me that most blue-collar workers damn well do get paid for their overtime, and if the boss doesn't want to pony up the bucks, he can do the work himself.
I agree.
Seems to me that most professional blue-collar workers, like plumbers and carpenters and such, make upwards of six-figure incomes.
Six figures? Maybe if you include cents. According to this page (from a quick google search), carpenters make an average of $16.44/hour. That's about $32k/year. Plumbers make $13.70/hr.
The parent should not me modded Interesting
My brother in law is a plumber and steam fitter. It's true that when you're an independent contractor, and own your own business, you can make lots of money. However, to get to that point you need to get trained, and certified, and pay lots of dues. And you literally do pay dues. To become a plumber, or other skilled blue collar worker you need to work as an apprentice, for $30k a year, if that, for somebody else who makes the $100k a year, until you pay off your training -- which can take years
Even then, when you finally do become a master, and can start out on your own business, that takes a lot of money and hard work. You need money to set up shop, and you need to be a certain type of person to make the business work. If you're not good at keeping books, and running the business, you will never make $100k+ a year, and will have to go back to breaking your back for somebody else, even though you might be making as much as $40k+ for them
http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/whd/fair
Section 13(a)(1) and Section 13(a)(17) of the FLSA provide an exemption from both minimum wage and overtime pay for computer systems analysts, computer programmers, software engineers, and other similarly skilled workers in the computer field
These are the proposed rules to affect computer workers; there was a last minute change, but presumably these are the most up to date rules proposals, as it's straight from the DOL's website. Essentially, unless you make less than $455/week, you don't qualify for overtime if you're a computer worker.
--
$tar -xvf
If we were union (my last employer was) I'd work with some slugs who barely get 40 hours in, and don't do half the work I did most days, and I was a part time student employee. And they got paid triple what I was paid. Yeah, I got screwed, and I made them all look very bad, but my boss also knew I did a lot of work and so would let me take some extra time off with pay from time to time (no vacation for students/part-time) and let me "work from home" a few times a month. Not perfect, but it worked while I was in school.
Linux: The world's best text-adventure game.
please, point me to a company that pays a 100k salary and overtime for weekend work? I'll be there in a heartbeat. Does such a place exist?
I didnt think anyone who made over 40k a year and is salary (who isnt salary at that point except contractors?) got paid OT pay.
Best I've ever seen a place give out for extra-hours worked is 'comp time'
How does this translate to a right wing conspiracy?
>Second of all if you're making $21k/yr or more then you're making more that most Americans. These rules only affect the rich.
I don't think that's true. 21K is very close to the median for some of the poorer states like AR, MS, etc. States with higher populations like NY, and CA are higher, around 26-27K per year. Someone in IT making 21K/yr is far, far, far from rich.
Here is a link to find median wages for the US.
Median (not mean) household income for the USA is around $41,500 or so...
If you currently work, you're probably rich
Oh, and a link (warning PDF file):
2002 census info
Sorry, but you are not entirely correct, at least in California. I won't speak for other states. California, BTW, has its own state overtime laws that will probably remain uneffected by the new federal regulations. In California, you get overtime if you work more than 8 hours per day or 40 hours per week.
Just because you are a "salaried employee" does not mean you are exempt from overtime regulation. Salaried employees have an hourly rate - it's determined by dividing the "salary" by the number of hours worked each week.
Essentially, all employees are subject to overtime rules by default, unless they are categorically exempt. Exempt employees include "professionals" such as lawyers, doctors, etc., and employees whose principal duties are the management and supervision of other employees. There are a number of other exceptions (I seem to recall that truck drivers, for example, are exempt. In California, many employers try to screw employees out of overtime by giving them the title of "manager" or "assistant manager", even though they remain wage slaves.
144l. ph34r my 133t l3g4l 5k1lz!
well, perhaps not all of Canada, but I have been in IT now for 6 years and never once have received any overtime.
If you're salaried, you're not entitled to overtime. If, on the other hand, you're payed hourly and are working more than 44 hours per week, your employer is legally obligated to pay you time and a half for every hour over that. If this is the case, contact the labour relations board immediately and they will bitchslap your employer through the floor and obtain the outstanding wages owed you.
You have to remember the people who worked there were aganst the union, .... Then the store became a union shop per the demand of the union.
Er, not legal under US labor law.
Unions must be certified by the bargaining unit (the employees). If a union comes from outside to organize a shop, they (1) usually need someone inside to do the organizing, because it's only employees that have those rights (the union organizers who are not employees do not necessarily have the right to distribute literature, organize meetings, etc.); and (2) have to hold a certification vote where a majority of employees vote to bring in the union. There are cases where bargaining can become recognized without a successful certification vote, such as:
- The union presents signed union cards that represent a majority of the employees (proof that the employees *would* vote for the union). This is not usually done, though, because people want their anonymity protected until the union is certified.
- The shop is purchased by a company with an existing union contract, and the acquisition defaults to union status.
- An unsuccessful certification vote is held, but it is determined by the National Labor Relations Board that actions of the employer tainted the results, and further, that any re-vote would suffer from the same taint, such that it is not possible to have a fair election. The NLRB can then require the employer to recognize the union. (This is VERY rare; usually the NLRB requires the employer to remedy the actions that tainted the election, then holds a new election.)
- The employer can choose to recognize the union without a vote. This is very risky for the employer, though, since they could be accused of installing a company union, which is an unfair labor practice. Further, the employees have a right to hold a decertification election if they don't actually want to be recognized. (This is the only way the story you tell could have happened, but since the employees could have voted out the union, it seems very unlikely.)
So, um, where are you getting your "facts?" It sounds like you're getting a garbled version of the story from someone who was very much against this unionization campaign. Do you have a news article or something with more concrete information?
Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
This is nothing new to anybody that works in BC, Canada. All "hi-tech" workers are not paid overtime until 60+ hours to "help us compete internationally".
Join the club...it's getting bigger daily.
Like someone else did earlier, I'll call bullshit on this.
Kerry, among other Democrats, has taken great pains to point out that he favors a tax increase on only those household who take home more than $200K a year.
Just as a little personal example... I make a bit mroe than 28K a year, but less than 100K a year. I'll leave a little wiggle room in there for your imaginations. Last year, thanks to George W's tax cuts, I had to pay less income tax. Net savings was approx 300. Thanks!
But wait. Because W wasn't done yet, oh no sir. He lowered the amount of interest I pay on my student loans that I could deduct on my taxes. Net loss to me, approx 740. Apparently getting a (very slight) break on the interest of your student loans is too much to ask for. Thanks!
So thanks to George, I'm paying about 340 more than I did before, our deficit is through the roof, and it doesn't seem things will get better. If Kerry wants to raise taxes on people who make over 200K, and reset it so we middle class folks get our real advantages back while losing those superficial advantages, god bless him and good luck in November.
I worked as an EMT with a county ambulance service for 10 years in the 80s (1980 - 1990) and we went 'round and 'round with the government body we worked for about the overtime issue. They tried to use the FLSA 7(k) and 13(b)(20) sections to exempt us from overtime for time when we might have been asleep (we almost never actually were allowed to sleep during that time, I remember one time we were out polishing the ambulance wheels at 3:30 because there was no calls at the time and the crew chief didn't want anyone to think they let us sleep on the job...) - so they were going to require us to be in the station house for 24 hours, but pay us for 16, even if we were working non-stop all 24 hours.
Of course, we were not very happy at the prospect, and complained loudly!
We were then routinely dispatched to fire scenes for 'standby' so that the county government could try to argue that we were 'fire fighting personnel' and fell under that exemption. When that didn't fly with the workers either (and the law was pointed out to the county commissioners), a LARGE chunk of back pay was paid.
The current law requires overtime for anything over 212 hours in a 28 day period for fire fighting personnel - for anyone else covered by the FLSA it is any hours over 160 in 28 days.
For you or I, that means working slightly over 10.5 hours a day every work day (5 days per week) for 4 weeks - WITHOUT GETTING OVERTIME PAY. (by the way, I am salaried and don't get overtime, anyway - but I do get compensatory time off...)
So when the article mentions the overtime protection already afforded to Fire, Police, and EMS workers, it is deceptive, as they are NOT paid under the same rules as other people.
My take on this is this is another "business friendly - fsck everyone else" move by the Bush administration. I don't like it.
Acts of massive stupidity are almost never covered by warranty. --me.
Dept. of Labor rules governing overtime pay haven't been updated since the 1970's. Those rules have an extensive list of occupations and exemption (from overtime) status - I think there are about 1300 of them. Since that time, many new "occupations" have been created (mostly in IT), and those that existed then are totally different now. If employees were in an occupation not covered by the DOL rules, they would often have to seek redress through the courts to have their overtime eligible status determined. This was very expensive and created an incomprehensible web of court rulings that employers couldn't make heads or tails from. The new DOL rules simply codify rulings already made. So for the first time in a long time, Employers and Employees will know the rules up front instead of a bunch of ad-hoc rulings that were fair to no one.
And by the way all of you "indentured servants" and "slaves" should get back to work now instead of reading Slashdot on your employer's dime.
Good heavens Miss Sakamoto - you're beautiful!
It only means that your employer isn't in violation of law if he doesn't offer it. It is still legal for you to have in your employment contract that you WILL be paid for overtime. Just as because the minimum wage law sets a minimum pay rate doesn't mean that you will actually get paid at that rate, this law doesn't mean you won't get overtime pay.
Local electricians make $27/hour (about $54K a year without overtime) and get time and a half for anything over forty hours. Sixty-five hours a week would easily give $100,000 per year. High Voltage test techs make about the same per hour and get time and a half over 8 hours in a day (or Saturdays) and double time over 10 hours in a day (or Sundays). There was an article about an employee of one of the big three US car companies that made a $100,000 in a year with overtime.
I would agree that this is rare in an office environment, but there are any number of blue collar jobs that are hourly and pay better than $40K per year. For that matter, I have had several salary style jobs that paid considerably less.
Some hourly wages do not include benefits such as health insurance, 401K, bonus, etc. My current job is like that. Basically a W-2 contract employee.
Most salary jobs include benefits so the net value of the job to the employer is the same as a higher hourly wage.
(IANAL, but I've recently discussed this issue with one. Talk to a real lawyer for the real deal, this is not legal advice, blah blah blah. Also, this may only apply to California.)
It is illegal. Many companies have (fairly recently) been found in violation, and had to pay every employee all their owed overtime pay. By docking you 2 hours of pay, the company has firmly classified you as an hourly employee, and they now owe you 26 hours (just math from your hypothetical situation) of overtime pay, regardless of whether you're even still employed there.
If there's no dispute over the fact that you were docked for sub-40 hours, this is cut and dried. If the company made a practice of this and is reasonably large, they are in very real danger of getting hit with a class action, and having to pay a massive amount of back overtime pay.
Wait a minute! I was looking around at the DOL website, and they have actually RAISED the maximum amount you can make and still receive government required overtime compensation. They approximate that 1.3 million people will now receive 1.5 time overtime pay who were not required to receive it before. And, employers can decide to pay overtime even if people make more than this maximum - they just aren't required to do so. http://www.dol.gov/_sec/media/speeches/541_Side_By _Side.htm
The exemption which allows employers to exempt computer professionals earning over 27.63 per hour from overtime payment was added to the Fair Labor Standards Act in 1996. If memory serves, that puts it right square in the Clinton Administration. It's a good idea to check out the facts before you throw rocks. :-)