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Video Projector for Home Theater?
ZeLonewolf writes "I'm thinking about setting up a movie-style home theater system. I've already got the room set up and I've obtained a nice sound system. The last step is to acquire a video projector. I'm considering a few options: Projectors on eBay run from $300 to the tens of thousands. On the other hand, being an electrical engineer, there are plans online to build your own (Google cache), that are potentially as cheap as $200. What are Slashdotters' experiences? Will a $300 projector do the job? How about a home brew?"
Get thee over to http://www.avsforum.com and you'll find your answers.
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Getting them from E-bay might not be a good idea, remember that the lightbulb has a limited number of hours before the light strenght is reduced and it finally breaks.
Anybody have an alternate site? I found this one on google.
Any generalization is a stupid one.
I was looking into projectors as well, but discovered a big drawback: the bulbs are good for about 2000 hours and then run about $350 (on average) for a new one. That's a lot of money every couple of years...
--- Usually, those that believe in absolutes are ignorant, fools, or both.
Picked up an Epson S1 ($800-$999) after looking into making my own and adding up the hours it might take (way too much). So far I have been very pleased with it. I have it plugged into a old pc/tv tuner and it works great for daily usage and the bulbs are cheap ($150 Street). I was too lazy to make or purchase a screen so the wall with the white lead paint will do for now.... ;-)
I found this site to be very helpfull when picking out a projector.
http://www.projectorcentral.com
EA David Gardner -"... but the consumers have proven that actually what they want is fun."
Great stuff available here:
ProjectorCentral
I've thought about this, and I wouldn't build my own for the same reason I won't put a DVR computer near my TV -- the fan noise and the esthetics.
I think if you know what you are looking for, Ebay can be a good source....but, remember that those bulbs can cost a few hundred to replace. Homebrew could give you decent results. I'm not sure if you set up a nice room you'd want a homebrew in the theatre room. Computer projectors are getting cheaper ($1500.00 range these days) and might be a good solution, especially if you are thinking about a HTPC. If you are even close to the $3,000.00 mark, I'd start looking into some plasma or LCD displays. With flat panel displays getting cheaper, the prospect of a projection screen becomes less and less desireable to me. To be honest, if I were looking at over $1,000, I'd rather get a HDTV. I think most a/v geeks would be disappointed with the homebrew approach to projectors. If you like DIY projects though, it could be fun.
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If you're going to be projecting you're going to lose a little clarity, so make sure you get an HDTV projector like a refurbed Piano HE-3100 HDTV projector for about a grand. Also, don't skimp on the screen you get, I recommend the Luxus Deluxe Screenwall - it has great reflective properties and microperf so you can put your center channel directly behind the center of the screen for the ultimate movie effect! Hope that helps.
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur
wanted an ht in my basement, where i can control the ambient light well.
so I bought myself the sanyo plv-z1. vga/s-video/component inputs. decent brightness, contrast and resolution (yes, it supports hd). $1200 plus it came with a free 92" diag 16:9 screen.
put another $800 into some very decent mid-range speakers and a/v receiver. now I've got the coolest home theater setup that most of my friends and neighbors have ever seen.
everyone thinks i spent close to $10k, and their already dropped jaws hit the floor when i tell them it was 1/5th of that.
also, a great resource for projector info can be found at http://www.projectorcentral.com.
No, the $300 will not work. Sure, they'll be able to play TV on the wall fine, but they'll look like ass. For normal res TV, you need at least 800x600 to look good. If you plan on playing DVDs or HDTV stuff, though, you need at least 1024x768. For true HD, though, 1280 is needed. All of the projectors will scale down a higher res image to their native res, but you don't want that. Also, most higher res stuff like DVD and HD are widescreen, but most lower end projectors are 4:3. Using those for widescreen wastes resolution and, from some things I've read, isn't good for the projector.
You also need to worry about lumens depending on how dark your room is, lamp lifetime and cost, use for main TV or just a movie projector, fan noise, etc.
I would suggest a high lumen, 1024x768 projector with a widescreen native lens. If you need HD and are concerned about image quality, go for the 1280 res ones. The jump in price is enormous, but you don't have to worry about scaling, and less worry about widescreen native lens.
IANAL, but I play one on
In fact, you probably won't even like a commercial projector unless it's very dark in the room or the projector is very bright (read "very expensive").
Front projection has a big gotcha. Notice how white your screen is? That's as black as the projected image can ever be. Any stray light really messes up the contrast.
Rear projection can provide much better contrast, but the systems are much larger and heavier.
You're likely going to see many opinions in this thread, but here are - from my perspective - the most salient points from my experience.
The first is the ongoing cost of maintenance. With any projection device, you'll need to occasionally replace the bulb - in many cases, this works out to a new bulb every 500-1000 hours. For my InFocus LP330, new bulbs cost me $150-200 each.
The second point is daytime viewing. Light output of projectors is measured in lumens, with the higher the number representing higher light output. For daytime viewing, anything under 1000 lumens is essentially useless in all but the darkest of rooms. A good, reflective screen will help a bit, but if you're planning to put the projector in a room that gets a lot of sunlight, you'll want to either invest in a brighter projector or some black-out drapes for the room. The latter option may be less expensive.
I did the same thing recently. After much research, I concluded that the $1000 InFocus X1 was an especially good value: It uses DLP technology which doesn't burn-in if you play lots of games, and is quite bright (1100 Lumens). I just took a trip to their site, and see that they now have an X2 which ups the brightness a bit for the same price. They also don't rape you quite as bad as other companies for new bulbs. The only downside to this projector is the 800x600 resolution.
BTW, on the subject of games - playing on one of these is videogame ecstasy. Definitely plan to invest in wireless controllers for each of your consoles.
I agree - we use InFocus projectors here at work (X1's can be had for around $925 online including shipping - check Pricewatch under "Presentation"... On those "movie nights" at work we run them off a laptop with audio piped into audio equipment we all bring in from home. Awesome picture - and a much better use of the equipment than it gets from the Marketing guys ;-)
Life would be so much easier if we could just look at the source code...
virtually every projector under the sun measures bulb life in "hundreds of hours"
Most new consumer projectors will have bulb lives of around 3000 hours. Many also feature low pressure bulbs that can be replaced for around $200. Are you sure you've researched this at all?
This also has to do with the home theater question, because if you watch a lot of movies or TV shows, you're going to find youself using a bulb or two each year and that's not cheap.
Again, this is overstated. If you used your projector for 4 hours a day (and I don't know anyone who would do this), one bulb would last about two years in most new consumer projectors.
If you're the kind of person who watches more than 4 hours of TV a day, I indeed wouldn't recommend a projector. I'd recommend surgery.
Can they be modified to work with other light sources (given that overhead projector bulbs are no bargain either)
There's a reason projectors (overhead or video) use fancy bulbs. They need lots of brightness and even lighting. There's probably lots of options available if you're willing to have a horrible picture - but I think I'd prefer to spend $100 a year on bulbs (assuming 4hr/day use).
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
As another poster mentioned, the best place to go is the AVSForum. However, here is a quick breakdown of your options.
I would not suggest rolling a DIY projector, you will get much higher quality image from a basic manufactured unit. Entry level is around $1000 at the moment, a couple thousand for a native HD unit. (You can find cheaper stuff in the used market).
There are four primary technologies being used in frong projecttion right now:
LCD - Cheap, but generally considered a good value. Lower contrast and more screendoor than other technologies, but can still look pretty good. You can get a nice 1280x720 (720p) LCD projector for about $2000. Check out the Panasonic AE500 or the Sanyo Z2. Sony's HS20 is also nice for a little more money. Lesser expensive LCDs are available but generally throw relatively poor images (IMHO).
DLP - Very popular right now. Generally provides a better picture than LCD. Limited to 720p for now. A true 16x9 HD DLP projector will run you more than an LCD. Probably looking at at around $4000 minimum to over $10000. The BenQ 8700 is a GREAT value at the moment. Lower priced DLPs are also available, all the way to $999 for the InFocus X1. These lower priced DLPs are generally not high-def and most 4x3, instead of 16x9. Use of an anamorphic lense can turn them into native 16x9 projectors, but adds cost and complexity.
DLPs have the best contrast of current consumer projectors by a good margin. One thing to be carful of is that a some of people see rainbows or get headaches when watching DLPs. This is less of an issue on newer models with a faster color wheel, but may be an issue on less expensive models. Check out brands like BenQ, InFocus, NEC, Marantz, Dwin, Sim2 for good DLP projectors.
LCOS - This is the technology of choice for JVC. It has lower contrast than DLP but throws a smoother image due to its higher fill-factor. Its often described as very "film-like". Can support higher resolutions than DLP for now. A lot of the current LCOS projectors are large and not very user friendly. There are some more players entering the LCOS market, including Sony, with a native 1080p device, but it quite expensive. I'm not quite as up-to-date on LCOS projectors as DLP and LCD, but its worth a look.
CRT - The grandaddy of projection. CRT can throw a wonderful image, altough digitals are catching up quickly. Manufacturers aren't really making them anymore so most are found in the used market. They are big, HEAVY, and require lot s of maintenence. They are also generally dimmer than digitals.
I recently got an Infocus 4800, and here are some bits of advice.
1. Get as much native resolution as you can, at least 1024 x 768.
2. Don't get too crazy with lumens. The people who do installs say most projectors need between 600 and 800 lumens. The lower the lumens, the longer the bulb lasts.
3. Make sure you buy one for the appropriate use. Some projectors are designed for conference rooms, so they are designed to make an image that doesn't change, much, look good. Some projectors are designed for home theaters, so their video processors are designed for constantly changing images.
4. Inputs, Inputs, Inputs! Get one that has Component video-in plugs(not goofy adapters), S-Video, VGA, and DVI(it's becoming the standard video output). Also, make sure it supports progressive scan and 16:9 aspect ratio(almost all do).
5. Get the best screen you can afford(see #8). I recommend either Da-Lite or Stewart.
6. Cover any/all windows/light sources. The more ambient light, the more washed out the picture.
7. Once you have it, buy a color calibration CD. It's a lot cheaper than having a professional come in and calibrate it, and you get great results.
8. Make sure your room is big enough. The first row of seating(e.g. couch) should be no closer than 1.6 times the diagonal measurement of the screen. Any closer and you see every pixel(commonly called the "screen door effect").
Also, someone mentioned rear projection. Don't go that way. Rear projection screens are almost 10x more expensive, and, since they are glass, are known to "prism" the image(the image changes as you get to more extreme viewing angles...with the light actualy being like from a prism).
I like it. I'm projecting on a white wall (no screen yet) from about 10 feet with a Dell 3300MP. It's ceiling-mounted. The image is 83 inches (4:3, diagonal, wide-angle limit). The color reproduction (even without a screen) is beautiful, and the image is very clean. You will need a progressive scan DVD player with a component video output. Images that large suffer greatly from the poor signal quality of composite video (I tried that first, it was bad enough that I couldn't even fully focus the player because the signal was blurry - still watchable though). I haven't tried S-video yet.
I paid $1750 to Dell for the projector. It's a DLP rated at 1200 lumens, and with a native resolution of 1024x768, which is enough to play widescreen DVDs at 576p (which is better than DVDs put out) without "compression".
Be careful with eBay projectors. The lamps cost a pretty penny (Like 1/4 to 1/2 the cost of the projector), and the used ones may not have much lamp life left.
Also: be sure that your lifestyle fits a projector. The room needs to be dark (with my setup at least). You can't watch a movie and do something with your hands, like my wife sometimes does, without a desk lamp, and that affects the projector's image quality.
I imagine that a screen will help a lot, but I'm not there yet. I'll probably buy something inexpensive from Draper in the next few months.
vi is my shepard, I shall not font.
You should be able to get a decent projector for $1500 - $3000 depending on what your tastes are. The most important thing is to actually look at lots of projectors in stores that are showing what you want to watch, whether it be broadcast sports, widescreen DVD movies, or computer games. Don't get a used one, save up for another few months and buy a new one. New bulbs cost $300-$600 and the brightness drops drastically after about half the bulbs rated life (the rated life varies a lot, but a bulb should last a couple years unless you never leave your house ...
...
If you're only interested in regular video, not computer projection or HDTV, the resolution of the projector is a red herring. If not, get a 1024x768 res unit.
Most people seem to think DLP style projectors have a better video image and LCD style projectors have a better computer image. LCD styles have a very high black level (a black image is dark gray on the screen) whereas DLP have a nice black. Again, this is more important for video than computer images. Just remember a good LCD projector is going to look better than a fair DLP projector no matter what, so use your eyes when shopping.
Don't get anything with less than 1000 lumens brightness. Around 1500 is probably OK for up to a 5' wide screen if you don't keep the lights up too high. Much more than 2000 is probably wasted unless you have a very big screen or want to use it somewhere in addition to your living room.
HDTV is hard to figure out. Many projectors say they handle it, but it's usually scan converted down inside the projector since 1080i is a bit over 1900 pixels wide and even 720p is 1280 pixels wide, so unless you have at least a 1280x1024 projector, the whole HDTV thing is a little bit of a sales con. If HD is important to you, you should look at the higher resolution units. As I said, look at it in the store. If it looks good to you, that's all that matters.
Good luck, I wish I could afford one
If a bar in your area gets shut down see if they have an auction or find out what liquidation place they use to sell off the old equipment. I know more than one guy who's gotten a good (but old) projector (that's not the expensive part) and a half-decent screen (that can be the expensive part).
Of course, you have to keep your ear to the ground...
crazy dynamite monkey
Be aware though, as an owner of an LCD projector, that watching TV runs about $0.40/hr in bulbs (actual life for me runs about 1000 hrs to failure, about 700 until the picture is so obviously muddy that failure is pending). Of course ebay helps reduce the bulb cost to a more managable $0.10/hr.
CRT projectors run 7500-10,000 hrs on a set of guns, which at retail isn't that different for the nice ones, but used they're a much better bargain over a long period of time. Plus a good CRT projector has an infinitely better picture than an LCD/DMD, though all a capable of far exceeding the data avialable in a NTSC image.
Some details though:
DMD/LCD projectors generally have square pixels, so you get 640x480, or more likely you scale by a non-integer and get a blurry picture (it's probably still far better than a regular TV, so the blurring may be irrelevant). CRTs don't quantify the scan lines into pixels and are therefore "better" with analog TV. Digital TV is another beast, but typically also uses non-square pixels (eg D1 720x480) which inexpensive DMD/LCD projectors still can't deal with except by scaling.
I find DMD projectors "harsh". Others might call it "crisp." It doesn't look good to me. LCDs look better, but are a bit muddy. A good CRT projector looks great. But they're HUGE, and expensive, so... LCD or DMD projectors are probably the way to go in practice, just be aware of the operating cost. Figure out which models meet your requirements, figure out the purchase price, and add pro-rated bulb cost and see if it's still a good deal. Bulb prices vary a lot by projectors, but in general don't buy something brighter than you need, or you'll be paying for it as long as you own it.
My uncle is a movie-techno-geek from a long way back, and recently set up just such a system. He found two things that needed adjusting.
The first was that these projectors are designed for computer presentations in large rooms, so the light was ridiculously bright for DVDs and such in a home theater. Solution: a neutral density filter between the optics and the screen.
The second was that the colour temperature was much too high (too blue). Solution: a warming filter. It's a very pale rose pink colour. People don't look like aliens anymore.
The results are striking. I'm tempted myself.
...laura
First off, I own a Sony VPH-1278Q. Paid $1350 for it from eBay seller BPAI in Maryland, went and picked it up in person.
LCD and DLP projectors are compact, lightweight, and portable. Bright images from a small unit. Bulb costs are high, and the color intensity changes with the bulb life. Fixed resolution for the panels, there are widescreen units availible. Screen cannot do true black, there is always illumination even when the screen is "black"
CRT projectors are bulky, a pain in the ass to setup (you have to converge all 3 guns together). The 1278Q can do 1280x1024 I believe, but I run it from a HTPC @ 1024x768. Mine generates some noise, I could take efforts to silence it but it doesn't bother me.
CRT life can hit 8000 hours, the blue is the first to go. Static images burn in on CRT projectors, DLP/LCD don't suffer from this issue. CRT can do true black, all power to guns is cut and the screen is dark. CRT's are also known to have a hotness in the color when there is just a tiny bit, that is if there is just a little bit of red then it will be over-emphasised a bit because it takes a certain amount of power to fire the CRT (I haven't noticed this, this is from what I've read).
The CRT projector prices are falling, BUT ****BEWARE**** because many of the units on the surplus market are from corporate use, where they have been abused. Windows NT login splash burned into the display, etc. Be careful about this!!! There are hour counters on CRT projectors, mine had about 2200 hours on it when I bought it. I noticed some 4:3 browning but it didn't have any effect as it was outside of my projection area.
There is a bit more info on my web page above.
People balk at the size of my projector and start to talk about something they saw at SAMS club for xyz. There is much more to it than just point and shoot.
Southeastern Virginia REPRESENT!
A note to the author or anyone else considering a front projector for home theater: be very very wary of lighting conditions. If you have, say, a dedicated home theater in a basement room with no windows, or any other type of situation where you can completely control your environment, front projectors may very well be the best option (man, that adjustable screen is cool!). But any sort of ambient light at all is going to make you extremely unhappy with the picture. Home theater projectors are far different from computer-based video projectors in this sense. DLP is as bright as front projectors come, and it's still not good at all in a room with ambient light. And I'm not just a videophile being picky. Go to an Ultimate Electronics or if you're lucky enough to have a Magnolia around, go there, and demo one out, asking the sales rep for a small amount of light in the room. Decide for yourself. These things aren't for living rooms, or any room with a window, or somewhere where the next room over will frequently have a light on, etc... But that being said, in a completely controlled environment, front projectors rock. And the engineer in original post should build his own, to satisfy his own curiosity and because that's just damn cool.
Can anyone tell me why I should get an Infocus versus the BenQ 6100? The BenQ seems to sell better, is about the same price, and lighter. The light lasts longer, and is warranteed for an extra year.
I would be using it for weekly film nights (VHS/DVD), and occasionally for video art installations. I'm not concerned with HDTV, PC resolution, etc. I'm really wondering if there's some problem I'm not considering (fan noise? Lens quality?). Price is my main concern - I wouldn't even by considering one if they weren't in the $800-850 range.
Any advice would be helpful!
While I would agree that CRT projectors can be great and I use one in my theater, I wouldn't agree that the have an "infinitely better picture" (how's that?) or that they "don't quantify the scan lines". They most certainly do. With CRT projectors you will need to match a video processor to the projector and to the screen size and you will need to plan on frequent calibration. With CRT's you get fantastic blacks and tremendous color but it takes a commitment to live with them.
A few points about the HS20 from personal experience. It *does* have amazing image quality and resolution.
But...
I went through three brand new HS20's (all sent back to Sony) before giving up on it. They all suffered from the same problem which was an inconsistent color temperature. For example, with a white screen, the lower left corner was pinkish and the top right was bluish. All three exhibited this behavior. I could get the same effect on a black screen with no inputs, so it was not my input. It seemed like a manufacturing defect with one or more of the panels being "pinched".
Second, the color registration on the three panels was never spot on and it's not adjustable. So the crosshair in the middle of the screen was white, but all the others had blue or red fringes.
Third, I wanted an all digital system. This projector has DVI input which is sweet. Unfortunately, at the native resolution of the panels (16x9 at 1388x768), it only accepts a refresh of 56.6Hz. That means movies show a slight jerkiness since the frame refresh does not sync up with output of the computer. Using a lower resolution results in blurring and scaling of the image inside of the projector which totally negates the point of a pure digital picture (and letting the computer handle scaling, etc). It also makes for a crappy desktop.
Sony also refuses to divulge any info about supported display modes. One support idiot claimed that connecting a PC to the projector via DVI was not supported and could damage the projector or PC. Sometimes Sony's proprietary ways are a little too much to bear.
I owned the previous generation of VPL Sony home theater projectors and they did not exhibit these problems (color and alignemnt). I'm hoping these flaws are fixed because it's an otherwise amazing piece of hardware.
Cost me about $1200, bought offline. Looks like you may be able to get it cheaper now. I've had mine for almost a year. 100+ operating hours. Playing XBox, Dreamcast and DVDs. Hooked up my laptop a few times and for some reason, it worked above 800x600 resolution. I believe my laptop is set to 1024x768. Why it still worked I have no idea, but it looked great.
I may have spent too much - maybe I could have gone with one of these $300 projectors. I didn't know there were $300 projectors at the time.
I keep my projector about 8-10 feet from a wall, used paper from an artstore to line the wall. You could guess I'm not an A/V nut. I used an old pair of powered computer speakers w/ subwoof that is plenty good enough for me. I have no idea what the ratings are, and the speakers are placed behind me when I watch movies - which one person found a little strange. I have the speakers facing at the back wall, and it doesn't bother me one bit that the sound doesn't come from the wall - either I don't notice it, or it does end up coming from the screen-wall enough that I don't care. My cats consantly knock over the speakers and I don't even bother to pick them up.. so my advice on audio should be taken with a grain of salt; though I am a musician, if that means anything.
At 8-10 feet the image is about 8' diagonally. Wide screen, full screen, computer screen, whatever - doesn't matter it looks good. I would work off of it as a desktop to work with apps - but I loaded Warcraft 3 on the laptop and it looked great. Actually - I think Soul Calibur on the Dreamcast looks better than Soul Calibur 2 on XBox, on the projector.
Maybe the novelty hasn't worn off yet - but I think this is one of the best purchases I've made. It turns every crappy game and crappy movie into something decent - because hey - it's freakin huge!