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To Be Or Not To Be A CET?
maxdamage asks: "After reading an earlier Ask Slashdot article and the responses, I am very worried about my future career plans. This fall I am going into CET, which is essentially a cross between a CS and an Electrical Engineering degree. According to these responses, CS majors are doomed to spend their lives waiting tables. Does a computer related engineering degree give hope or should I change to a more general engineering program, before its too late?"
Here is the short answer if you are looking for big money IPOs and have little interest in computing technologies above and beyond that then don't do it. If you have a real passion for how computers work both hardware and software then the CET degree is for you. Jobs are to be had but employers are wising up to the flakes that have plagued the industry for the past 10+ years.
I'm assuming your talking about the DeVry University program and as they are local I can only tell you my experiences in the Dallas area. They are profit motivated, the recruiters get paid commission (CET/EET/Bio are the most expensive programs), and they have a few teachers who ought to be elsewhere, their registration system blows rhinos. If you read all that and thought so I just want to learn then I would say don't worry any more about it and just go for it you will be glad you did.
10 years from now, the last thing you want to do is realize you majored in a subject you don't like and you followed a career path that doesn't suit you. Don't major based on the pay scale of job opportunities -- major based solely on what you want to be doing in 10 years. Choose a major and a career path that will make you happy, and you will rise above the pack.
If all you are interested in is money (which some people find an enjoyable pursuit), then you are in the wrong field. Get a law degree, accounting degree, or a business degree. Those tend to work with a lot of money, and they never have a short supply of it. No matter where our world goes, we'll always need lawyers, accountants, and businesspeople.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
If you have CS experience than the degree could get you past the resume screening. If not than expect alot of helpdesk (if there are any left in the US).
I would closely consider these articles Here that deal with freelance tech support work. They were posted on slashdot withing the last year. I learned alot from them.
I can speak from experience that in an area with one of the highest IT unemployment rates than I have never been without a job. The last year has shown nothing but success.
Why? Because of my experience and my quality work. I spend a good 30% of my work cleaning up messes from so-called 'computer guys' and college grads that after however many years and however much money cannot troubleshoot a dead powersupply and fix everything with Norton System Works.
If you dont have any experience and you took the classes because of the ITT Tech commercials than you better supplement your degree with something.
Good Luck!
Boredom's not a burden anyone should bear.
And also, no degree will provide a guarantee of success.
The pluses and minuses have a lot more to do with your ability to get along with other people, your ability to think through problems properly, and your willingness to do the things you are asked to do.
Ultimately, I think that studying and working within two obscurely related disciplines will make your skills more valuable and usable though. Whether that's CS and EE though - the relationship is perhaps too obvious. CS and CE might be a more worthwhile choice right now.
If you hope to be making decent money in the ensuing years, you've basically got two choices. One is to get a service oriented career -- like a mechanic or a plumber, or anything that requires your presence. Alternatively, you can own a business of some sort. Either way, keep in mind that any job that can be done somewhere else cheaper will be . This does include just about any kind of engineering degree, too, except for maybe onsite work. Your best bet if you're looking for a career with decent money is a trade that requires physical presence or a management/business-ownership path.
He who laughs last is stuck in a time dilation bubble.
Move to the country, and eat you a lotta peaches.
Short of that, think about what kind of career you want, and what companies hire people that do what you want to do. Call said companies (or e-mail, whatever), and ask the people there what would be most useful.
But trust me on the peaches.
I have degrees in both Electronics and computer network systems. Unfortunately, finding a job in either field seems to be rather difficult. Then again, I live in a state that was by far one of the hardest hit in the recession. I'm open for relocation but I haven't had much luck. I'm thinking about starting my own company because between the economy sucking for so long and employers playing games, I'm tired of messing with it.
For things like EET and CET, the "T" stands for technology. It's an Engineering [i]Technology[/i] degree, not an engineering degree. Now you could go up higher beyond a bachelor degree to a masters degree in engineering. Then you could take the test to be a certified engineer in your state. But a technology degree deals with things on a more hands on, technical level. It's applied science. Engineering, on the other hands, veers toward the more theoretical aspect. Example, Engineering Technology emphasizes how to use an equation to solve a problem. The equation's origins are irrelevent. But Engineering would actually derive that equation and seeks its origins.
My employer looks at a number of things that are not related your GPA, which school you went to, etc., when looking at new college grads:
1. Work ethic - are you willing to take responsibility for getting your work done, asking questions when you don't know something, willing to contribute when you have a good idea?
2. Ability to work in a team - we don't have any individual projects. Work with the team, try to get along with your co-workers.
3. language skills - do you speak a second language? In the industry in which I'm employed, a second language is very helpful, our customers are from all over the northern Hemisphere. A willingness to travel goes along with the language skills.
4. "business common sense" - like it or not, we're all in this for a profit. The path to this is keeping customers happy while making common sense business decisions.
It's my bet that if you can exhibit a number of these skills after you finish your BS degree, you should have no problem with getting a decent job. So while working through your CET degree, look for opportunities to improve your skills in these areas.
"Choose a major and a career path that will make you happy, and you will rise above the pack."
Become a farmer. No one complains about them, and we certainly can't be outsourced. Plus you will be in touch with your roots (so to speak). People will be coming to you, TO YOU, to buy things. And yes farming is a very technical field, despite all the "image" in the media e.g. dumb hicks.
"No matter where our world goes, we'll always need lawyers, accountants, and businesspeople."
The same applies moreso to being a farmer (or rancher if that's your thing). All the above are you. You're your lawyer (within reason), accountant, and you most certainly are a businessman. So come on down, sit a spell, drink some moonshine, and we can talk about your new career.
Remember the late 1990s? Yeah, those years where the guy with a psychology degree got a $100,000/yr job at a .com company because "his skills were relevant to how the company developed its web site" or some such crud? Those days are gone.
As software and computer engineering matures and the industry grows (yes, this is arguable right now, but over the next 20 to 40 years I have no doubts it will grow), the primary differentiator between you and the next guy for obtaining a job in CS/CE fields will be tangible skills.
That said, just about the only person that can really predict what the economy will look like 4 to 5 years from now (when you look for a job) is Alan Greenspan. There are other posts that say "do what you love" and I tend to agree with this. Money isn't everything.
For the record, I did the same thing you are starting - a CS/ECE double. I also got the job I always wanted.
You should never take life too seriously - You'll never get out of it alive.
I was discouraged by so many people (even my own Uni!) when I went into IT 125 years ago that it was not funny. All of them were wrong of course.
Look, doom scenarios are normaly wrong, what you read here is mostly innacurate tosh, specially when it comes to outsourcing and levels of unemployment.
Only the bitter and unemployed have the time to rant, all the others are too busy making a living.
Success is combined with a lot of luck, of which you have no control.
So study whatever you want, enjoy it, and drop the idea that what you learn will somehow 100% influence what you earn.
There are people with no education whatsoever who became millionares for having one good idea or for being in the right place at the right time.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
What's your point? The original question was about whether to get a CET - which was stated as a cross between a CS and Electrical Engineering degree. Maybe I'm assuming the original question is referring to a four year Bachelors degree and you're assuming it's a two year associates degree.
If that's the case, at the risk of pissing off a lot of readers here, I suggest the 4 year Bachelors degree is the way to go. The things that make you employable with a two year associates degree will also make you employable with a four year Bachelors degree. You will have a lot more opportunity with a four year degree. Anecdotally, in the business unit in which I work, we have 4 people with associate degrees and 76 people with at least a Bachelors degree. That ratio probably applies through out the 15,000 people working for my employer.
I'm happy, I have a beautiful fiancee, I just finished a 4 year term as Art Director for a software company and I'm currently bidding on several large projects while waiting for the right company to find my resume. I've never found it hard to find interesting and lucrative work to do. Having an open and active mind and a willingness to apply found knowledge is all you really need in this world of ours.
If there is one thing you absolutely need to learn early in life is how to learn, how to find the information you need, how to comprehend and apply that information and how to express to others, in a language and terminology that they appreciate, the total of your learning and knowledge.
GO learn how to do these things and get a degree, any degree, if you want to be able to prove that you are capable of them without having to demonstrate them. Then go and apply for jobs you think are interesting or lucrative. If you apply for enough jobs of this sort you will find one that appeals to you. Do you really care if it uses all the skills you learned in college? Most of those skills will be nearly obsolete in 5 years. The skills that won't be obsolete are the ones concerning how to learn. You can always teach yourself how to do any job. Just remember that it will take you a year or two of study to really understand that new job well enough to earn money at it. Plan ahead.
Personally I think people should change jobs significantly every 5 or 6 years. Start in CS, move to Marketing, switch to engineering and manufacturing, run your own business for a while, teach at a community college, buy a farm, fly a corporate jet, become a paralegal... why not. None of them are really that difficult but they do take some specialized knowledge to do them well, probably about 2 years of serious study will teach you what you need to know for any of them.
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
I originally earned an EE degree in '87, then returned to school for a CS degree in '92 while working. Even back then, I found that hardware was boring as hell without the intelligence that could be realized through software.
Pure CS folks have a lot of difficulty communicating with HW and EE's tend to write crap code or end up with very tedious jobs.
The combination opens up a whole realm of opportunities such as autonomous vehicles, home automation, simulation. It's F'ing great!
As for a career choice, there is only one answer - Do what you enjoy and be agile. We can only imagine what the next 20 years will bring.
Often, I have to tell my employer that this stuff is hard work, If they knew work was fun, I'de get paid squat! Geccie
Don't knock waiting tables. A good waiter can make good money. Perhaps not quite as much in the long run as the degreed guy, but the waiter starts at full wages earlier. $60,000 a year is reasonable for a good waiter to take home, without working full time. (just get the lunch crowd in a busness area)
It takes the right personality to do it though. I'd never make a good waiter as I don't have the right people skills. People will wait in line to have the best waiters serve their table, even though others in the resteraunt are free to serve now. Note, other countries don't have the same tips system that the US has, I don't know if this applys there.
For many jobs the paper the degree is printed on is worth more than the words on it. That is the company won't hire you without the degree, but it doesn't matter which one you get. So get the one you want, and then find a job.
> According to these responses, CS majors are
> doomed to spend their lives waiting tables. Does a
> computer related engineering degree give hope or
> should I change to a more general engineering
> program, before its too late?
There is always room for another good engineer. If you take your education seriously and apply yourself, you'll be able to differentiate yourself from your peers. Then you won't be stuck waiting tables.
There is always room for another motivated engineer. If you take a job out of school that isn't quite the job you imagined, but are agressive in pursuing every opportunity at work - you volunteer to finish off that project that no one wants to do, you offer to lead the project thats the opposite of glamorous - you'll differentiate yourself from your peers. Then you won't be stuck waiting tables.
The world is always lacking honest, competent people who will go the extra mile to get work done. If you're one of those people, there will be work for you in the current economy. It might not be the job you want, or even the one you were trained for, but there will be one.
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside a dog, its too dark to read.
One of my acquaintances here is majoring in Computer Engineering, but he works for the CS department. He's got a MS internship over the summer... Of course he's a damned sellout, but the jobs are out there. Don't pursue another major just because you are concerned about finances.
As I pointed out elsewere. Farmers diversify into other crops, or meats e.g. ostrich meat, strawberries. Heck, some farmers are going into fish farming. I wouldn't recommend the professhion for anyone afraid of hard work. And the answer to your question is yes, but then any suggestion of going into business is going to involve financial risk. The question is how much risk can one handle?
I'm graduating this year with an EE/CS degree, and I don't think I'd do anything differently except take harder classes and get started earlier. (I used to be CS and switched to EE/CS my junior year.) I personally think that the degree actually affords you more opportunities, because you have both an understanding of EE and CS even if neither is truly in-depth. I personally focused more on CS and garnered most of my skills outside of the classroom anyway. The only huge problem I've run into is explaining what the major is and why I chose to do it. For us, it's extremely flexible, and you can really learn whatever you want in detail. As a result, I know practically nothing about, say, operating systems, but I do not a ton about computer graphics and digital design. And, I do have a good job lined up for after graduation. The opportunities are out there. You just have to work hard finding them. Also, don't limit yourself to just EE or CS-related positions, unless that's all you want. EE/CS majors are high in demand in other fields as well including consulting, management, anything quantitative, etc.
I agree... regardless of the degree type 4 years is the way to go. 2 year or 4 year, you're still going to be a newbie when you get hired, and you may or may not be a brilliant programmer. What the boss is looking for is how you coped with dealing with a 4 year program and if you learned "how to learn."
I went right from highschool to a computer engineering program. After my first year I got an internship, and then I was hired by my employer and I started finishing up my last 3 years of school at an online university. I am just about to graduate and my position is greater then that of the college hires and I've been making a good salary since 19.
In the end, college is only really going to get you in the door somewhere, and after that it's all up to you. Sure, MIT or Devry will judge how good your salary is at that starting point, but that doesn't mean the Devry person is going to be the first one laid off either.
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Free your mind.
I graduated with a degree in Music composition and performance, which I very much enjoyed. I took other classes all across the board, trying to get everything I could out of college. When I graduated I got a job as a Java developer (based mostly on non-academic programming projects I did). Now I'm doing quite comfortably.
I may get an MBA a bit down the road, since it would make a nice complement to my programming experience (and what I've already learned about how business works, on the job)... but the point here is that if you're bright and hard-working and show some initiative, you can get *something*, which will give you experience, which is what most employers want.
Yes, degrees matter (and can affect your salary), but having or not having one doesn't doom you to failure.
There are only 10 types of people: those who understand decimal, those who don't, and, uh, 8 other types I forget.
The people in that other Ask Slashdot took the employee, safe route. There was one business degree respondent who was working a help desk. Many of them had "what level salary to ask for" down to a science.
These people are people who will never be anything more than helpdesk or Cobol-cubicle material, especially when their tone suggests they believe they're living "the good life." How about that fellow who thought he was eating $1000/mo on $150 of onions, cheap bread, meat sauce, and melted-down cubes of chocolate!
There is a reason those people can't find better jobs: they expect nothing better, and strive for nothing better, because they're all unwilling to take any risk and make an honest go of opportunity.
Be careful their bitterness doesn't sway your opinion of what to expect in your future career--because you'll get NO MORE THAN YOU EXPECT. You'll NEVER MAKE ANY MORE THAN YOU EXPECT TO MAKE.
You may make less, but you'll *NEVER* make more.
So here's my advice: do what you love. People recognize other people who share a passion, or who are passionate about what they do. It's inspiring to have people like that around.
Consider--would you really want to work around someone who bitches all the time that the "best" jobs are stolen by overseas low-paid workers? How depressing? Would you want to work next to someone who had no ambition, no aspirations, and no willingness to take even the modicum of risk necessary to build and sell something novel on their own?
Makes me sad to see someone claiming that $20/hr is worth making a career out of. But, ah well. I suppose most people can't see past their immediate surroundings.
I won't post at 1 AM anymore. Troll on! My grandmother would be ashamed of me.
Boredom's not a burden anyone should bear.
A CET is a two year degree. The "T" is Technology. It's a technology degree. It's not an engineering degree. It's not a cross between CS and EE. That would be ECE -- Electrical and Computer Engineering.
Anyways, my point is, Be Careful; otherwise, you are just another lamer with a fake engineering degree.
My advice to you would be to drop the whole CET idea and get a real CS or a real engineering degree. They will be worth a whole lot more in the long run. Or do a dual major with CS/EE and NOT a CET. A CET will cover the basics for CS and EE, but nothing more, you will have lots of general concepts but little hard core, real knowlege. Most high ranked Universities don't offer CET programs, the only ones I know that offer things like CET are 2 year programs, mid-low ranked state schools or ITT Tech trade school type places. A real technical institution like MIT/RPI/CMU etc will only offer REAL enginneering and REAL computer science. Not some strange cross CET that really doesn't explore the nuances of either.
Personally I have a dual major with CS and Electronic Art/Communication. Again, I would highly reccomend a dual major over a major that claims to combine two others. It will be more work but it will pay off in the long run.
People may talk about the market being bad, whatever. Any real engineer from a real university will get a job if he has some work experience and some common sense. I'm sorry, but most people I know that whine about not getting jobs should choose another field as they're not qualified. Notice I said "most" not "all." In any event, they tell you the different engineering disciplines are different. Really, it's just a facade to get you to come to "their" program. Granted, you will learn different things. However, engineering programs are all about applying the same math and physical sciences to problems in a specific discipline, be it electrical, chemical, or mechanical. That doesn't mean some programs are harder than others. Typically, electrical and chemical tend to be up there as far as difficulty. That's OK, a lot of them fail out anyway. As we say at Rutgers, "If you can't hack it, pack it." That refers to the fact that sadly, Rutgers actually has a Packaging Engineering program. So sad, it doesn't even have a website.
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
Could be, although you have to be pretty good with people to keep a job waiting tables.
Also, remember that if you are an asshole, and I have no way of knowing of course, it is quite likely that people will not tell you so to your face.
I have been unemployed myself, but only for eight months or so, when a series of contracts changed their timetable and I was left without a job at a bad time of year. It's tough, I know, and when I got out the end of it I was extremely motivated to work hard.
I interview most people who come looking for a job at our company, and the hardest ones to turn down have definitely been the ones who are willing to work for nothing for a month or two. In my country it is a significant business risk to take on a new employee because if they are no good it will take the best part of a year to lose them (minimum) and if they are grumpy about that, and you slipped up on the process somewhere, you could well still find yourself facing court action. If we have any doubts now we create a defined short-term contract and try someone out on that - if they do a good job (and that includes fitting in with everyone and dealing with clients OK), we offer them a permanent position.
I've had people through my door who thought the world of themselves, but no matter how good they thought they were I need some sort of proof before I could employ them, and it is certainly tempting to believe those opinions were inflated. I don't tell those people that I think they are up themselves - I simply tell them that we don't have any role for them at the moment...
Thanks for all your advice. Probably should have mentioned that I already have a CCNA and am A+ certified.
You already have 'IT' experience / qualifications - what do you want to do? I believe that a strong understanding of software is a lot harder to get than a strong understanding of hardware.
I am cautious of hybrid degrees - I would be concerned that they water down the content to pack it into the time available.
If you're passionate about hardware, go EE. If you are passionate about software, go CS. If you want a foot in both camps, you could do what I did - CS, and then buy a copy of Horowitz and Hill "The Art Of Electronics". It's got enough content to start you on your way - and there are a truckloads of books in any library that will take you from there!
Wow, only 'basic algebra' required to take the whole slew of circuit analysis courses. Something wrong here?
A quick google search would find quite a few BS in CET degree programs, about half of which are actually Computer Engineering Technology and half are Civil Engineering Technology. Either way, a 4-year engineering technology program is better than an associates degree, but an actual engineering degree is going to make you more employable, as the focus is really more on how to solve problems in general rather than using specific technologies.
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
Any course of study you follow with an aim of making piles of money in a single area of limited scope puts you at risk of failure because of some cyclical swing or technology shift. Diversifying your knowledge will prepare you to deal with anything that life throws at you. This is the way it works in the animal kingdom, and I think in human society as well.
This is not a put-down of engineering or of any other course of study. I majored in Spanish and endured a lot of jokes about how I would have to work in McDonald's (long before Spanish became the dominant language there). But I've survived so far.
"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past." -- George Orwell