Slashdot Mirror
China Plans Surveillance System for Internet Cafes
nasty writes "According to Interfax China, China will install a special surveillance system in order to prevent 'unhealthy information and websites'. All internet cafes in China will have installed the new system by the end of 2004. This according to China's Ministry of Culture (MOC). The system requires the customers personal information, such as name, age, and their national citizen identification number, before they are allowed to log onto the Internet." Reader Dr.Hair submits another blurb about the system.
No matter what they try to do they will eventually fail to contain the information they are frightened of.
The RIAA and MPAA have suggested the same be done in the US to save starving movie and music artists from piracy..
No more Chinese/Korean kids dying while playing Counterstrike.
Perhaps an anonymous proxy could be set up and funded by the US, as it has in Iran.
Linux: Free if your time is worthless.
Finally! The end of MSG.com!
... innovation.
It seems that a lot of people around the globe have worked hard to design proxies that get around existing systems which governments use to restrict their citizens' access to information on the internet.
IMHO, this new piece of software will just lead to a new breed of web proxy, and until China either cuts off net use entirely or has a massive change in government policy, it's going to be a continuation of the government vs. infolibertarian game of "build the better mousetrap". Just now, instead of bypassing and improving filters, it'll be about tracking and masking data...
"It is dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue." -- Zork
US officals say plan is "another evil of communism"...they went on to defend a similar measure to for Americans called Ashcr-o-ware that would weed out terrorists (ie file sharers and pot dealers)... wouldnt surpise me, Orwell was only 20 years off.
I think at Kinko's (office services chain), you can just pay cash and get online. Some libraries are like that as well. An option (even if it's pay) for totally anonymous internet is important if one values privacy.
-I am an elective eunuch.
What do you expect from a totalitarian government?
I am surprised that they haven't done that before...
what I also don't understand is why 'democratic' world has such a great trade relations with totalitarian China?...
then again two party system is only one step to totalitarism
somewhat irrelevant but interesting quote from today NYTimes editorial: "we are all capable of believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time: the only check on it is that sooner or later a false belief bumps up against solid reality, usually on a battlefield." That's from George Orwell's 1946 essay "In Front of Your Nose."
Just because I don't care, it doesn't mean I don't understand. Homer J. Simpson
Are camaras going to be involved? Sure, log user info and then log the pages they visit. Have some government agency sit there and randomly check sites visited. Develop two lists "acceptable" to shorten the list of sites checked and "unacceptable" to automatically flag users visiting known unacceptable sites. Is this what they are talking about?
Don't get me wrong, the idea scares the heck out of me, I'm just curious exactly how they plan on implementing the system.
~~Guildencranz
Penguin Trivia #46: Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were. -- Chicago Reader 10/15/82
As most of us know, this is not an incident unique to China. Increasing surveillance is happening on a global scale. And most people seem not to care, which is actually the most scary part.
How long until we get telescreens?
Name, age, and national ID number?! Unless they have some kind of picture ID with a magnetic strip on the back which has to be inserted into a computer, after the photo has been checked by an official, how are they going to keep people who have somehow gotten hold of someone else's name, age, and ID number, from using that information when they log on?
Pity the poor bastard who has to explain to the chinese authorities that it wasn't he who was reading Slashdot at the local cafe, but an impostor.
quiquid id est, timeo puellas et oscula dantes.
Isn't it ironic that China's Ministry of Culture has the purpose of restricting culture? Like Orwell's Ministry of Truth, which had the sole purpose of changing history.
[Please sign here]
It's probably not just me, but doesn't it seems to me that the Ministry of Culture should probably be called the Ministry of Truth (or MiniTruth for short)???
I have 1 million monkeys on a million year contract to make me a better sig.
My first reaction to this was pure disgust. Then I thought of all the censorship software that China has employed in the past and the net nanny software installed in American libraries. People have always found a way around it.
I'm sure that some clever individuals will find a way to get around this Orwellian nonsense in no time.
Also, with the millions and millions of people using the Internet in China, that's a lot of data being generated on what people are doing. How would they parse data of this magnitude? Look for the names of "naughty" websites? Doesn't the Great Firewall already block those?
Maybe they are not really monitoring people very much, but just trying to inspire fear and obedience with the "Big Brother is watching" bit.
Information tends to be easily spread, and tends to leak from even the most secure of places. This might slow down the spread of undesirable information, but won't stop it.
A friend went to China about 2 years ago to teach English as a seond language to Chinese students. It was a nice little gig, he had to pay for airfare and food, but got free accomodations. It was also a program designed for people that don't speak Chinese. The idea was to teach kids who already knew a bulk of english how to use pronunciation.
Anyway, he kept in touch with me and other people through the use of internet cafes, so we talked fairly often. Then a few days went by where he wasn't logging on. It turns out government monitors had flagged his usage because he had been visitng a lot of American web sites. He told me he woke up one moring with AK-47's pointed at his face and was taken to a local precinct.
A rep from the agency he was working for had explained the sitation to the police, but from there on he was forced to fill out paperwork outlining his planned usage activities on the terminals.
And for a funny tidbit, he didn't realize the massage parlors in the city he worked were of the "full release" variety.
It's funny how us westerners get all uptight about China choice to sensor information from their population. Would you be shocked to discover that in the UK, you could get in big trouble trying to import comic books due to their laws on graphic violence. It is really so shocking that China considers some content on the net to be unacceptable?
While I'm not for censorship, is it really that shocking that a country with over 2 billion people is taking it upon it selfs to censor incomming information in the same way other countries have done with physical media for years?
Recently one of our finacial analysts went to China to report on an upcoming Chinese company that our company was looking to institutionally invest in.
Our super-prima-donna-annoying-user employee put in about thrity help desk requests due to not being able to email, surf the web, or VPN from her hotel room in China. We had to explain to her about the Communist's "Great Firewall of China" and how they block/inspect/proxy damn near everything.
So believe it or not this story is more of a suprise that this type of "surveillance" is NOT already in place.
"What I found particularly amazing, was that the culture has taught people not to question things."
I'm not sure we can chalk that up to Chinese culture per se as much as decades of brutal repression of dissidents who dared question authority.
I realize history vs. culture is not a clean distinction to make, but thought it might be worth clarifying that many have dared to speak out. Those prone to do so were and continue to be dealt with harshly.
Those not imprisoned learn to shut up. Yet even today, knowing the penalties and risks, some still continue to protest.
A live Linux CDs, like Knoppix, will become popular in China. Opps the computer rebooted.
Customers personal information, such as name, age, and their national citizen identification number, before they are allowed to log onto the Internet.
If only, we could have that here. Hold on. I have to pay for internet access. They usually want my name and some other identifying infomation such as address. I don't tend to use internet cafes though. I'm speaking of home internet. Why shouldn't they be required to write their name, age, and drivers license number here? What if the FBI came knocking on the door with printouts and said we know the guy that was here 2 nights ago at this IP and computer name is planning a bombing we need all the info. you have on him, now! It would be useful if you could provide a Name and Address.
I don't think that it should be required myself. I do believe that it will be required in libraries to "prevent minors" from viewing "adult content."
If Ashcroft thinks along those lines, a regulation here or there in licensing could bring it about with out any troublesome laws.
Remember, you only have to think around those pesky laws if you don't argee with them.
In Communist China, the Web browses you.
But the difference is decreasing. Politicians everywhere want power over ordinary people. That's why they became politicians.
This story is no big deal. It's up to the Chinese to fight for their own freedom. We've proved in the last few years that we can't even preserve our own freedoms. We should fight for those before pointing the finger at China.
Somebody Elses Problem, frankly.
.... well, that's a different story.
I've been to China many times, Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen and HongKong (before and after it was given back)
I must say that for the most part they do things just like we do.
I mean, you can get a bottle of Corona at the bars in Beijing (except they put lemon it in rather that lime) you get can a big mac, kentucky fried chicking and starbucks.
One poster mentioned that people are conditioned to believe what they are told, I think this is a valid observation. I once was driven around by a girl from the office in Beijing, she took me to a bunch of government owned jade shops, in government owned taxi cabs. When I asked about the private owned cabs and jade shops, she told me bluntly that since they are not owned by the government they were lower quality.
This raised my eyebrows, as you can just can't equate a quality product with government.
The hotels mostly have internet access, high speed. There is a little note next to the hook up that warns you to be careful surfing the web and to stay away from material considered harmful by the goverment.
How would I fix it ?
I'm not sure anything is wrong. Actually, here in the US our websites are routinely blocked by agencies that are not even govermental (see Google, search pages removed due to DMCA requests).
I'm more worried that as a China Citizen you cannot leave the country (or go near the borders) without special permission. Everywhere you look there are little government officials in uniform asking questions. For the most part I ignore them, they generally leave foriengners well alone, but my buddies at the local office treat them as a layer of red tape.
One guy wanted to photocopy my passport, no way Jose ! And if you think that rustly ol' 38 scares me, let me tell you that this is not the first time someone pointed a gun at me. I was in india once and
My Chinese father has lived in the west for decades; this hasn't changed his opinions about authority and respect. I can attest to the fact that Chinese culture is a patriarchal culture of not questioning.
There are clear lines of authority in Chinese culture, and to attempt to question these is to dishonor not your family (perhaps by extension), not your nation, but yourself.
There is nothing more shameful in Chinese culture than questioning the wisdom of elders. Elders are not only generational (i.e. grandfather -> father -> son) but also hierarchical (national government -> local government -> individual). To question authority is to show that you have no regard for your family, your citizenship, your fellow man... it is to show, in some sense, that you are a kind of sociopath.
Even in the west, even disagreeing with government policies in democratic nations, my father feels that it is embarrassing and dishonorable to complain too loudly about what government does, because government is, after all, government--the embodiment of the collective. Activism, for him, is certainly sociopathic behavior of the most base kind, disrespectful to fellow citizens.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Providing your National ID card number and name has been required in mainland China internet cafes since at least 1998.
That you can buy a new ID card for about RMB 100 (about US$ 12) means that many Chinese have no qualms about handing over their ID numbers!
A dream is good. A plan is better.
I'm not sure cultural factors are primary here. Yes, there is a long heritage of collective responsibility, deference to elders and clan leaders, the paternalist state, etc. But do recall that the current regime has engaged in widespread, politically-motivated murder and torture.
The Party regards a form of collective spiritual and physical exercise as a political threat and have imprisoned and tortured its followers. It is within the living memory of most Chinese that the universities were emptied and intellectuals, professors and students forced to undergo *political re-education* on collective farms and forced-labor camps. Millions of Chinese have died for their political views (even the mere potential for dissenting views) in the last sixty years.
Which is why the current appropriation of the slogan *Let a thousand flowers bloom* sticks in my craw so. Besides being a mis-translation, this slogan of the early days of the cultural revolution was not an invitation to voice new ideas or question established norms, but bait to lure dissenting elements into the open. It is like saying *arbeit macht frei.* It may or may not be so, but to use the phrase in any but a historical context would be deeply offensive to many, even today. That such a reaction is not invited by the Chinese phrase is a testament to Western cultural astigmatism.
illegitimii non ingravare
We all know that China has one of the worlds lowest crime rates. So perhaps they do respect authority.
This is good and this is bad, its good because there's less wars, less terrorism, less crime. It's bad because there's less freedom.
Overall though the USA is no better, people at work never question authority. Everyone is anti government pro Boss, we kiss our bosses ass here and never question the word of the great boss at our job.
So in a way, the USA in the corporate world is no better when it comes to authority than China. I've never been pro authority, which is why I hated school and I can't stand the corporate world.
But there generally are two kinds of people, the ones who accept authority and the ones who can't. Generally the people who can't have a much harder time than the people who can, are more likely to drop out, or end up in prison.
It's not a cultural thing, its human nature for some people to respect authority and others not. In China however rebelling isn't an option because deviance is an American ideal. The rebels in China are quickly killed. Rebels in the USA are just locked in jail and then released after a while.
If the Black Panthers were hung, shot and murdered on national TV live, instead of just locked in jail people would think twice about challenging the government.
Perhaps this is why the Waco incident was on live TV.
People don't exist to serve systems, systems exist to serve people.
Are there any US companies involved in this? Weren't there some companies in an article last year who were helping the Chinese develop software to aid in censorship over the Internet?
SELECT (*) FROM PRISONERS
WHERE "TORTURE" = YES AND
"DEADYET" = NO AND
"PAINLEVELBEFOREPASSINGOUT" > 7
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
... in China, where there are no guaranteed freedoms, surveillance will be in situ, but here in the Land of the Free we guarantee the freedom of access but encourage surreptitious surveillance?
Not sure which is more unhealthy, but I can tell which is more honest.
HEY RKZ,c id=8139 351
What's the deal with stealing my post VERBATIM from January 30th?
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=94950&
I'm reasonably sure this is the deffinition of Karma Whore
What if they used anonymous surfing software like Primedius, or Anonymizer, could they still be tracked?
I'm surprised this one hasn't got modded Troll yet. Oh well, I'll bite...
No, it's not shocking at all. Unfortunately, this is what we can fully expect from an oppressive, non-democratic government. It also tells us Westerners the kinds of things to watch out for in our own governments -- there but for the grace of God, and all. It seems outrageous to us now, but liberty has to be continually guarded and fought for, again and again, because we can be assured of the continued existance of dictators and wannabe dictators on both ends of the political spectrum. Someday in the near future, that news article could be about us.
The UK is more restrictive in many ways than the US (no right to bear arms, and a scant two centuries ago insulting the king could cost you your head, if I remember correctly). However, it had a strong concept of freedom and independence which was inherited by the first American colonists, who "fixed" many of the abuses of the English system that existed at the time, in the Constitution. Hence the Bill of Rights, separation of Church and State, division of power among three major bodies...lack of a king...etc.
There's no sig like this sig anywhere near this sig, so this must be the sig.
Somebody needs to tell China that the Patriot Act does not actually apply to them, so they may carry on as normal.
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
I was insufficiently clear in my previous post. Let me phrase it another way.
Do you really want to play cat and mouse with an organization that has no qualms with decapitating you?
How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
Others who may not have that choice always have these choices in addition to the previous one I mentioned:
- Emigrate legally
- Emigrate illegally
- Instigate revolution against the decapitators
Of course, the farther down the list you go, the more side-effects there may be. Your mileage may vary.(What? Do you want unrestricted web access or not?)
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
hmmm...you don't believe the parent's first hand experience? When were you ever in China? Do you know anybody who lived there? So we are to disregard the parent's primary source and go with your...what...tertiary...quaternary...saw it on tv or read it on slashdot source?
I have lived in Shanghai for almost a year and have had DSL access for about 7 months. So far, I have not had a single instance of any type of website blocked and I purchased my connection from China Telecom, the state phone/DSL co. I would agree that this is more of a scare tactic than anything else. In any event, most Chinese truly do not care. They consider gov't intrusions as simply part of life. Should be remembered that there is not much of a philosophy of personal privacy anyway in a country of 1.2 b. From my perspective, it is the rare Chinese (who has not lived abroad) who is interested in anything other than money.