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Corporate Work in the US vs. Canada?
No One You Know asks: "I've been working as a sysadmin for an insurance company in the US for the past six years, and have decided to move to Canada. I've had it with corporate America, but I'm trying to keep an open mind while job hunting. How does Canadian corporate life compare to that of the US?"
... Tim Hortons
Many of the companies in Canada are just counterparts to American companies. Specifically I'm referring to MNCs (multi-national corps). However, the environment is a little more easy going unless they are a division of an American company at which point that can be more difficult to work for. I've worked in the past with Canadian divisions of an MNC and this was usually the case. Smaller companies are still the way to go. You might want to look into a Canada based insurance company since you have some experience in a similar environment.
GeneralKael -- Slacker Extraordinaire
Cananda is not the 51st state and moving there isn't like moving to North Dakota.
If you are unhappy with corporate life in the US, get out of corporate life, not the US. Insurance is one of those industries dominated very large companies. Lots of rules, regulations and PHB. Go find a (stable, profitable, non-high tech) company with 80 - 200 employees. It is a whole 'nother world working for a small to midsized company.
I'm sorry to say that you won't find the corporate life all that different. What you will find different (authority: i have worked in the usa and now live in canada) is in canada people don't care as much if you smoke weed or not and think your health care should be free. there's arguably less racism in canada, but a friend of mine once said "at least in the USA they'll be racist to your face". I do believe canadians are less xenophobic, though.
YMMV
Generally, variability within different U.S. companies (corporate culture and procedures) is greater than that between the U.S. and Canada (or the U.K., or Australia), so it depends on where you wind up.
First few weeks are difficult, but people have a lot of patience if you are seriously interested in learning thier language.
In a few years you will find that you have not only become bi-ligual, but bi-cultural, you will be able to switch between different ways of thinking, frankly it really broadens then mind.
Then, who knows, next stop Europe! If nothing else it is a great thing on your CV!
And if you thought that was boring you obviously havn't read my Journal ;-)
It works like this: you get paid less and taxed more.
In exchange it costs slightly less to live and hostpitals won't turn you away.
People are not nearly so uptight as in the US. Gor crying out loud, we had an office party here for Christmas and everyone got a drunk
You sure you aren't just working for the wrong people? Lots of places throw a x-mas party, and there's even alcohol on occasion.
My current employers throw parties whenever they can, and the boss is usually the most drunk. 'Sgot nuthin; to do with the country. Though there are other reasons Canadia appeals to me...
I never worry about my office building/city/town getting targeted by terrorists. That's not to say it won't ever happen, but when was the last time you heard anyone say, "Let's get those damn Canadians"?
Canadian born and educated
moved to the US 10 years ago after finishing my PhD
worked in the US and Canada as a developer/intern, and in the US as a professor and executive
Bias: as a child, I was always an American-wanna-be My opinion: Canada and the US are very similar: It is wisely said that Canadians are polite, unarmed Americans, with health care. However, there are interesting differences:
- Canadians are more "conservative", in the small-c sense of danger-aversion. Canadians by and large will accept an average lower standard of living in exchange for a lower risk of catastrophe. This shows up in substantially lower wages for technical staff, but with a substantially higher standard of living for those supported by the social safety net.
- There is much less entreprenure-ship in Canada. Go to Canada if you like large companies, because there are a lot fewer start-ups.
- Republican bullshit not withstanding, the Canadian single-payer health care system works better than anything I have ever seen in the US.
- Canadians are generally more reasonable and less excitable than Americans. Conversely, Canadians are a lot less exciting than Americans. A Canadian radio station once ran a contest to pick a saying analogous to "As American as apple pie." The winner was "As Canadian as possible, under the circumstances."
A lot of Canadians have a very poor opinion of the quality of life in the US. I submit that this is because a substantial plurality of Canadians actually live in Southern Ontario, between Buffalo and Detroit. If all you ever heard of the US was that North Tonowanda was burning again, what would you think?Crispin
----
Crispin Cowan, Ph.D.
CTO, Immunix Inc.
Anyway, these two fellows from very different social backgrounds, one essentially being the boss' boss of the other, seemed to feel pretty comfortable kicking back a few bottles of Blue (Labbatt's Blue, the Canadian equivalent of... well, they drink the stuff as often as we drink coke or pepsi down here). Mind you, I often went out with both our CEO and with the people who worked for me, but that was the nature of my job. You'd rarely see my company's CEO out at lunch with our software developers, and if you did, they weren't exactly comfortably chit-chatting and kicking back beers, it always seemed much more strained.
It was always a pleasure to do work with our Canadian customers, and we always had a good time up there. Of course, I have to note that these guys were all making about a third what they'd have been making in the Boston area, when you account for currency differences and so on (then again, the cost of living is certainly lower up there, though it's not THAT much lower). Also, I suspect that big corporate environments in Canada are more uptight than what I saw, and I doubt that a large insurance company in Canada would be so much more laid back than a large insurance company in the US. But maybe I'm wrong.
As a job hunting System Admin. in Toronto, I can tell you the job market is pretty crappy. Unless you already have a job lined up, don't hold your breath for a sysadmin position.
You should also note that jobs in Canada are much more political than jobs in the U.S. Office politics plays a bigger role, and you better be good at the game to get anywhere.
I always called it Back Bacon.
(Living in Ottawa)
My take on Corporate life: Probably the same but good luck finding a job here. Only place hiring is the government but if you speak English and little or no French you are out of luck. Speak French and little or no English and you are in like Flynn.
...we could've used your vote.
LilMikey.com... I'll stop doing it when you sto
I can understand your (mostly WRONG) attitudes towards Canada, since you were actually raised in a different country.
;-)
That's the point though - Canada is a different country than the US - Canada is not USA-Lite. I don't mind the things you're railing against, since I've decided to accept them as the price of having my country the way it is - which is the country I love. If the poster is willing to accept that things will be different here, he'll come to love his new country, too.
BTW, try some of the establishments on St. Catherine street in Vieux Montréal - the ladies there will change your mind about Quebecers being unfriendly.
Soko
"Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm." - Anonymous
.. but there is no canadian corporate structure, it's all american companies anyways and aside from being a little more lenient towards watching the playoffs instead of working I've noticed nothing different.
Corporations are an entity unto themselves, I don't think country plays a part.
This P.I.G. will walk on the water, This P.I.G. will walk on the sea, This P.I.G. will walk whereever he wants.
You will probably make less and are paid in Canadian dollars, so that 60K a year isn't as nice as it sounds.
I think you need to compare the cost of living along with salary.
I work for a software company that has it's corporate headquarter in Montreal and I find working with my Canadian colleaqes to be quite frustrating. Many of the people I work with never even try to figure out a problem themselves before calling and whining. I know this is not indicative of the whole country but I wouldn't doubt if it was of Quebec. And yes even the French can't stand the Canadian francophones.
No Brains, No Headaches
Just realize you will be paying 50+ percent of your income to the Fed, ...
... will have subpar healthcare (but it is universal) ...
... and will be lucky to find a decent paying job.
...
... since it is so difficult to fire and hire people.
... being a socialist country the Canadians LOVE red tape and most people take there jobs WAAAAYY to seriously.
.. aren't you something ?
Wrong (it's 1.5-2 times less for 100k salaries)
Wrong in 'subpar' part. And it doesn't cost an arm and a leg as in some countries.
Wrong unless you suck hopelessly. There is a lack of qualified developers and admins as you'd find anywhere. That's qualified professionals, not the ones with interesting resumes.
With all the weird labor laws in Canada most companies hire contractors rather then actual employees,
Wrong unless you are talking about unionized jobs (such as janitors and bus drivers)
Wrong again. Bah, you don't know a bit about things you're talking about.
And be prepared for MORE bueracracy,
Well, you guessed it - Wrong, dude. Canadian bueracracy is NOTHING compared to bueracracy that exists in European and Asian countries and is not much different from US practices.
Hehe
Oh and don't forget the French, those whacky French speaking Canadians make the real French seem practically friendly.
What's this has to do with the move ? Still trying to get over Freedom Fries fever, aren't you ?
How to you tell whether the grass really is greener under that 27" of snow?
Granted, American suburban sprawl sucks, but is making the leap of becoming a member of another nation truly worth it? For example, an important question would be: does Canada value freedom and speech in all the same ways as the USA does? I really don't know (not being Canadian), but I do know that the USA is better than Slashdot doomsayers claim it to be.
Perhaps you simply need a career change? No one is forced into 1-hour commutes to a job they hate. How about moving rural, get a low-paying job, and lay back and enjoy life for a while? Buy a cheap john boat and go fishing for a change.
Are you sure it isn't your own idealism that you are chasing and never catching? Do you understand that naive idealism begets misery--in any country in the world?
Vote in November. You won't regret it.
Seriously, if you want to move to Canada just because you do not like corporate America, you gotta be bored out of your fucking mind. I do not know how you feel, but I can imagine because I have had the same thoughts; however, I do not plan on moving anywhere.
There are plenty of companies in the United States that offer excellent benefits and laid back environment. Believe it or not, you can find businesses that offer 100% health and decent dental coverages. You have to know where to look; hint, metrapolitan areas might not be your answer. Look at somewhat rural areas. You might not get a job that pays six figures, but you can score a decent position that does not require a monkey suit and being on call 24x7. Also, you'll get to enjoy less trafic, cheaper housing, more land and maybe you'll learn how to appreciate outdoors. Have you looked at the map of the U.S. lately? Our country is pretty damn large and lifestyle varies from place to place. I hear that some of D.C.'s neighborhoods look like third-world countries; on the other hand, I really enjoyed living in laid-back-not-giving-a-fuck rural area of New England. The choice is up to you.
Canada is better than the United States only if you are piss poor and/or need medical attention everyday (that is, if you cannot afford it). In the United States healthcare is still affordable; dental insurance plance can be better, but we also do get what we pay for. If you do not like something, go ahead and sue :)
Finally, if you think that your Canadian boss is going to be nice(er) to you, you're totally wrong. Businesses are here for making profits and no matter what the owner of the company wants to get the money. If your manager has to ride your ass in order to make you efficient, you won't find a place in any country of the world.
P.S.: Oh, yeah Candians are more polite. Last time I was in Montreal, several girls asked me if I wanted to get laid eventhough I was with my girlfriend.
I don't know about you, but I don't live at work. I actually go home every day, and do non-work things in the evenings and on weekends.
I guess any is better than none.
~S
"more relaxed" == "less productive"
Socialist countries usually *are* less productive and more laid back. They have no interest in success or achievement. As long as the motherland (or pretty much ANYONE ELSE BUT THEMSELVES is looking out for them), they don't care.
the unemployment rate in Canada is currently higher (7.3% April 2004) than the US unemployment rate (5.6% April 2004)
Are you aware that the unemployment rate here in the US does not count those who's unemployment benifits ran out and who are still jobless? Unemployment is out of control here. I have friends in Seattle (very smart, determined people) who have been without a job for over 2 years.
Try going into the 'small business' America. Its MUCH different then the big coproprates.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
HAHA cause the NDP spending all our money was so much better for the province than a Premier who is cutting back on overpaid union workers
Wouldnt you like to be a pepper too?
This may or may not be useful for you, but I worked for ~three years for a mid-sized Canadian corporation with offices located in the US.
The honeymoon: After getting dot-bombed twice, I was brought in for an interview via a personal referral, and it seemed like a good fit. I told them I was a little jittery about the technology economy, and to describe how they were doing. The response was something along the lines of "We've been making a small but dependable profit every year for the past thirty-plus years." I started work the next week. While primarily Canadian-run, the inclusion of British and Australians in the management mix gave a bit more of a truly international feel to the organization. The place was eerily quiet and very businesslike, which was a welcome change from the Brownian-motion style US/.com management of the previous few years.
The serious relationship: They kept me busy on a number of good technology projects, but the risk-averse environment began to grate on me. The Canadian management was interested in the *idea* of new clients, but was so entrenched in the repeat-business-by-reputation model that they consistently failed to track new opportunities. Even really good and profitable ventures with low risk that landed in their laps tended to be neglected. For example, I spent quite a bit of effort on a business plan for expansion of an existing line of work, only to have it neglected rather than rejected outright. Still, there were interesting work opportunities, and we plodded along with them. I resisted slowing my personal pace of business and technical exploration, but eventually reached something of a tolerable balance.
The divorce: The US operation began to lose money, and a new manager was brought in to build business. Instead, the uber-conservative atmosphere stymied new ventures at a higher level than had affected me directly. Low/med risk down here in the US was perceived as high-risk north of the border. The new manager (a low-wattage guy who was long on vision and short on follow-thru) then just resorted to layoffs. Now, a decent US-ian approach might have been to face up to the numbers, lay off a bunch of people with a semi-reasonable severance, and be done with it. Instead, in the Canadian corporate atmosphere I knew, having to do a layoff was a point of shame (which it should be, since any layoff is a tacit admission of management failure). But instead of getting it over with, they drew it out, firing an average of 1% a week for a year, on a seemingly random basis. The last straw for me was an ill-timed complaint that I made about not receiving my allotted training budget for the past two years. I was shooed out the door, only to be brought back as a consultant within a week. I finished my work shortly thereafter, and bowed out as gracefully as I could.
Would I work for a Canadian company again? Maybe, but probably not. These few years seemed to combine all the worst features of risk-verse Canadians, tall-poppy-averse Australians, form-over-substance-obsessed British, and blinded-by-your-own-BS-management Americans. But it was tolerable, we made a little money, and the company is still in business and probably will be for some time to come. Based on my experience, I would say a medium-sized Canadian corporation might be nice place to park yourself if you want a quiet, staid environment for a few years. But be careful that you don't take root and slow down to a point that you can't re-enter the US or other fast-paced market in the future.
Jon
I think not...(*poof*)
Other things to note: health care is essentially free.
Bullshit.
Unless your doctors and nurses work for free. And hospitals spring up out of the ground all on their own.
Where do they get their money. From the government. Where does the government get its money? From you.
Now...they may or may not do a better job with that money than a corporation (HMO or whatever), but they must get that money to pay the doctors from somewhere. And as the government makes nothing to sell, they get it via taxes. i.e., out of your pocket.
Not having a separate line item on your paycheck stub for 'Medical' doesn't mean it is free. It just means you don't know exactly how much of your check goes towards it.
oh yes, the beer is good. But so are many US micros...
"The U.S. was in great shape DUE to Clinton. Bush and his greed bastard henchmen fucked it all up."
;-)
The Dot Com era occured under Clinton which led to the recession. The recession technically started at the very end of the Clinton administration.
Clinton DID run away from the vast majority of challenges to the US abroad during his administration as written by the original poster. That taught the terrorists exactly the wrong lesson and emboldened them to strike again and again thinking that the US would turn and run.
Now onto topic! I commute with a gentleman/ex-canadian every day who has been living in the US for about 8 years now. He ran away from the taxes, poor health care, and constant interference of the government to come to California. (I can't explain why he chose CA..) He is now a US citizen thinking that this is the best place to be. Most interesting, since his Dad was British he has joint Canadian, British, and now US citizenship. He can work anywhere in the EU, Canada, or here. Look where he chooses to stay???
So why does the poor dude who started this whole topic think the grass is greener over our Northern border??? It's only green a few months a year!
Have you compiled your kernel today??
No person in the US is without availability to healthcare. Emergency rooms treat all who come. The US still has the finest hospitals in world and will remain so until someone manages to foist governmnet health care upon everyone.
On the other hand, no one in Canada is serously in debt due to paying medical bills.
As with everything, in healthcare you get what you pay for. Sure the system in Canada is in many ways inferior to the US, but it is absolutly free, or at least paid for by tax dollars. If you want to rely on the free medicare system in the US, your wait will be much longer and service much poorer than Canadians get.
Good healthcare is a right, not a priveledge of the rich, and the Canadian system provides good heath care to all people, and not just the ones who can afford it.
"Entropy is the bad-guy, and he is everywhere"
>Tell me who got the better treatment.
Off-topic and feeding the trolls, but I don't care. I'm sick of this argument.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
Geez. We learned this stuff in preschool.
And yes, I am an American. And I'm staying here to vote against the people who think like you.
Mod parent up funny. That is some funny shit.
If 8 years of Clinton is to blame for our current mess, who do we blame for the lousy economy under the first Bush? Clinton wasn't President yet.
Unemployment and tax policy [registration, sorry]
Mod me down, offtopic, I guess.
Point 1 is partially wrong. Canadian employment law is relatively pro-employee compared to the average US state (more like the more liberal ones like California) but there's nothing unlawful about telling an employee to train his replacement.
Point 2 is completely wrong. The Canadian federal government has virtually no authority to regulate employment relationships outside a few industries (like banking and interprovincial transportation). The US federal government has nearly limitless authority to do so, even if they leave the bulk of the regulation up to the individual states.
that's a huge difference! The tax burden is 25% higher in Canada by your figures!
Yes, and I get more for it. When you add in what Americans pay for private health care, your total equivalent burden is 38%, which is 8.6% more than Canadians'. Dispite various patriotic illusions, overall the health-care systems are about the same. The problem with Americans' health-care system isn't that it's capitalistic; it's that it's not. It's inefficient because of monopolization and corruption.
Hello AC,
> at least the the Iraqi prisoners are still breathing
1- Some Iraqis were in fact killed in those prisons, 25 of them according to local newspapers. Were their death nice and peaceful? We don't know yet. The female private we saw in all the pictures was interviewed yesterday and said worse abuse was committed than the one we saw. She didn't give specifics.
2- Spoken as a true westerner. Some of the victims interviewed on TV said they'd rather have been killed. Interview of people in the Iraqi street I saw this morning was saying that forcing people to have simulated sex was in fact far worse than killing them.
To the victims it does make a difference that they are still alive. In terms of outrage in the Arab world it couldn't be worse. See how much coverage the death of 10s of thousands of civilians in the Iraq pacification campaign has had, and how much coverage this is generating.
It should be painfully obvious that we are getting a war of civilizations.
Can't resist, sorry
> Now when is somebody going to apologize to us for
> killing 3000 people on September 11
What does Iraq have to do with this? None of the terrorist were Iraqis or had any contact with Iraq.
> or for burning and dismembering 4 US contract
> workers in Falluja, or cutting off this guys
head?
These are the work of terrorists, are you saying that the US should behave like terrorists? Can't you see that violence generates violence?
As has been pointed out in other posts, Canadian companies and work environments tend to be on the low end of the competitiveness scale. The preferred mindset seems to be "keep things steady and we will all have jobs for a long time." For most companies this works fine but it doesn't create a very challenging or interesting workplace. The government is the extreme example of this. If creativity or advancement are on your agenda you will probably be disappointed. Canada has far fewer start-up type companies because the markets are small and widely spaced. There just isn't the opportunity or the infrastructure to support many really dynamic companies.
I'm glad that someone else understands that the stripping nude thing was much more significant than most people think. This was not simply about stripping them naked and embarassing them. It was about humiliating and degrading them in the worst way they could come up with. They took a cultural perspective and found the worst acts they could perform on them to break them down psychologically.
This was psychological torture. It was not simply pointing at their genitals. Besides, as noted above, prisoners WERE killed. Dogs were set loose on them while they were defenseless. It is much easier for Westerners to empathize with Nicholas Berg, because you can relate to him. Hell, even if we knew the NAMES of the Iraqi prisoners, many of us probably wouldn't be able to even pronounce them properly. A human life is a human life, and lives are being taken on every side. There isn't much of a better or worse at this point.
"But I trust in the people's capacity for reflection, rage and rebellion." -Oscar Olivera
* Be prepared for a shock when you see your first paycheque. The income tax, CPP (pension) and EI (employment insurance) deductions will take a bigger chunk of your earnings than you are used to.
Also be in shock when you realize your standard of living is higher, life expectancy is greater and your health care doesnt cost you an additional $4000(giveortake) per year.
Be amazed when your family is not killed in the invasion of foreign nations, and be astounded by your overall sense of wellbeing resulting in the sense of responsibiltiy-for-ones-community.
Hmm. Maybe you could climb back down off of your desk, take a deep breath, and explain how you might react if you actually DID have an inferiority complex.
"Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
And you know what? There is no legitimate excuse for being unemployed for 2 years in the U.S. You can always find a job. You might not get to work in IT, or any thing else you find rewarding, but the jobs are out there.
For instance, in my working life, aside from IT work, I have:
Bagged groceries.
Worked in a yarn mill.
Worked in a carpet mill.
Delivered pizzas.
Driven a tractor-trailer.
Driven a garbage truck (including picking up the garbage from the back of the truck).
I didn't consider any of those jobs particularly rewarding, but they got the bills paid, and I would do them again if I had to.
Sorry, but I don't have much sympathy for folks who lie around unemployed because they are unwilling to take a job that is "below them".
Last time I was in Montreal, several girls asked me if I wanted to get laid eventhough I was with my girlfriend
;)
I'm not sure what part of the USA you're from, but up here, we call those "Prostitutes". Some of them are pretty open minded, hence, approaching a couple, instead of a single man.
Maybe these girls liked your friend, and were willing to let you join in for extra
Keep in mind the difference between saying "ratio of gun owners to to total population" versus "number of guns per person". Consider the case where you have five people, four of whom don't own a gun, but the fifth person owns four guns by himself. Then the guns per capita is 4/5, but the gun owners rate is only 1/5.
In the U.S. it's common for a gun owner to own multiple guns. This might be throwing off that number immensely if what you're actually interested in is seeing how common gun ownership is.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Now, just how self centric are you to not even be willing to learn something new ?
In the alternate universe where that was what was said, your comment would have made sense. Here in the real world where all the poster said was that you should practice up on French if you want to go to Quebec (which is the exact opposite of what you accused the poster of saying, your response was insulting and uncalled for.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
I think one of the major points that Michael Moore was trying to get across, is that American's have more gun violence because of fear. Even though murders have been going down, reporting it has gone up. If you live in Canada, it's easy to detach, and say it's happening somewhere else, when watching american news, but it's probably harder for americans to do this i imagine. IANAA (i am not an american)
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
Wages are on par when you take into consideration the health insurance an American pays (after tax) that is rolled into our socialized medicare system (pre-tax). I would have to disagree with this. If I would take the difference in the taxes in Canada and the US and use it to purchase health care/health insurance I would get much higher level of care in the US. Now, if I was working for minimum wage it would probably be a completely different story altogether.
If I would take the difference in the taxes in Canada and the US and use it to purchase health care/health insurance I would get much higher level of care in the US.
Are you sure about this? Have you lived in both countries? Neither have I, but I've read testimonials from several Slashdotters who have, and they say they couldn't find any actual difference in quality, and suggested it was merely propaganda perpetuated by the private care providers in the US (sorry for the inadvertant alliteration) to justify their profiteering (oops!). Can you back up your accusation?
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
What part of his movie was fictional? I'd really like to know what facts were missrepresented.
Sure, no problem. There are too many to list here, but this page sums it up nicely.
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.