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Corporate Work in the US vs. Canada?
No One You Know asks: "I've been working as a sysadmin for an insurance company in the US for the past six years, and have decided to move to Canada. I've had it with corporate America, but I'm trying to keep an open mind while job hunting. How does Canadian corporate life compare to that of the US?"
...same as the old boss. Corporate life in Ireland, Germany, Holland, France and here in the US is the same, mostly. I've work at least one year in each of those countries, for local and American corporations. Varying degrees of formality and autonomy, but basically the same crap in different languages.
Except for pea-soup-eating separatists, the annoying weather, the sports teams that never win, (go calgary), 90cents a Litre Gas, and 15% Sales Tax!
But we do have Beer!!
People don't speak so loudly. [ducks]
Drill baby drill - on Mars
... Tim Hortons
People are not nearly so uptight as in the US. Gor crying out loud, we had an office party here for Christmas and everyone got a drunk — those who didn't still sang and danced and had a good time. Contrast this with my experience with typical American office parties where they order some bland catered food, sip on mineral water and itch at their cotton-polyester blend polo shirts waiting to go home so they can work some more.
There's much more of an "open collar" atmosphere in Canada. Everyone trusts everyone else, we're all ready to get to know one another, and we certainly don't stay uptight after the regional manager has ended his visit to our office. Working in Canada is much less conducive to heart attacks.
BLING BLING. Meet the architecture that's changing everything.
Cananda is not the 51st state and moving there isn't like moving to North Dakota.
If you are unhappy with corporate life in the US, get out of corporate life, not the US. Insurance is one of those industries dominated very large companies. Lots of rules, regulations and PHB. Go find a (stable, profitable, non-high tech) company with 80 - 200 employees. It is a whole 'nother world working for a small to midsized company.
This is not true. Canada and the US have an agreement that Canadians entering the US and Americans entering Canada are still subject to the draft of either country.
The ever-popular "dodge the draft by fleeing to Canada" no longer works.
Proudly supporting the Libertarian Party.
All you need to know about Canada : Less Handguns, More Beavers.
...Also, I didn't know Buggalo could fly.
Generally, variability within different U.S. companies (corporate culture and procedures) is greater than that between the U.S. and Canada (or the U.K., or Australia), so it depends on where you wind up.
Uh, I make a six figure income, and my tax rate is around 35%. Yes, every dollar I make over $110,000 is taxed at 50%, but the first $7000 I pay no tax, and the tax rate increases from there. Taxes aren't much worse than California.
First few weeks are difficult, but people have a lot of patience if you are seriously interested in learning thier language.
In a few years you will find that you have not only become bi-ligual, but bi-cultural, you will be able to switch between different ways of thinking, frankly it really broadens then mind.
Then, who knows, next stop Europe! If nothing else it is a great thing on your CV!
And if you thought that was boring you obviously havn't read my Journal ;-)
It works like this: you get paid less and taxed more.
In exchange it costs slightly less to live and hostpitals won't turn you away.
Fat geeks in Parkas look just as big as skinny geeks in Parkas.. Girls you meet will never know until you get them back to your igloo.
Time travel is possible. We are quickly heading for 1984.
I can't speak for everyone, but I get paid more than my counter parts in the USA (and I can compare directly, as I am in a services company with employees in the US too). My income taxes are about equal, although sales taxes are higher. Finally, our health care is no worse or better than that in the USA, and costs half as much per person to run.
I never worry about my office building/city/town getting targeted by terrorists. That's not to say it won't ever happen, but when was the last time you heard anyone say, "Let's get those damn Canadians"?
It's true. The last guy I saw brandishing a gun got stabbed. Fortunately, we were able to keep the bleeding in check with hockey tape and Tim Horton's muffins. Then it was just a matter of keeping him calm (medicinal marijuana) until his free medical care arrived via dogsled.
In Canada, they don't really use computers. They only have one industry, well two if you want to seperate them, but those are creating snow and creating cold. You see, they just sit up there in their cold factories creating snow all day and then they turn on their giant fans and blow it into places like Wisconsin, etc. They take great pride in this however, because without them people like me might actually be able to walk around more than 4 months out of the year without being wrapped in 5 shirts, a coat, an under-coat, 3 hats, gloves with mittins over them, 5 pairs of socks, furry boots and 15 scarfs wrapped around my entire body. Hey Canada, thanks a lot!
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
And you better get working on the massive inferiority complex.
The health care is NOT state-provided. Health care is provided by doctors opening practices or groups of doctors running a clinic. Same as the states and elsewhere. The difference is that the government pays the doctor, the user doesn't pay.
;^)
For most people, the government doesn't pay for most drugs, semi-private hospital rooms, physiotherapy, etc. This is where the employer usually contributes. Most companies operating in Canada offer some sort of enhanced health plan to their employees that covers such extras.
Yeah, we pay more taxes in Canada. And our schools are better, there's less crime, and our inner cities don't look like third-world conflict zones. Go figure.
As most posters have confirmed, the Canadian office environment is pretty much identical to the US... maybe a bit less hyperactive.
This is maybe the downside - the Canadian customer is less reactive to high-pressure sales. We're maddeningly slow to cut a deal, and often passive-aggressive when subjected to a high-pressure sales pitch. This drives US salespeople crazy.
The main difference in other countries is that they don't use 4 foot pannels to make up the partitions, they use 1.2 meter pannels so you'll find your cubical is some multiple of 3/4 inch smaller.
Silly, they're not part of the US; they're only our hat.
taken! (by Davidleeroth) Thanks Bingo Foo!
As an American* working in Canada, I'll tell you that in my experience yes, it is more open and relaxed than in the US. That is until your company becomes noticed as an aquisition target because it's so successful and a US company sucks it up to help keep them alive. Having been through the experience, the contrast in company cultures was tremendous and the resulting atmosphere in the company continues to be depressing and as filled with corporate politics and frustrations as one could imagine.
My advice: if you find a good job in Canada with the atmosphere you seek, enjoy it while it lasts. I did. And since then I've moved on to a smaller Canadian company where I enjoy the relaxed culture still, sadly I just don't get paid as well for it.
As an aside, for an excellent resource on Canadian culture in general compared to the US, see Emily Way's An American's Guide to Canada. There is much useful info there.
*Disclaimer: For those who are anal about such things, yes, I generally refer to myself as an American, prefectly aware that there are many other countries upon the American continent. But having lived in three other countries apart from the US, I have found that by refering to yourself as a US citizen, estadounidense, or whatever else often tends to confuse people. Really, it does. Once they realize what you're saying, they invariably reply "oh, you're American". So after years of trying to buck the trend, I've given in to the pressure from residents of other countries, including Canada and Mexico, the two countries with the most right to be offended by such a moniker, and call myself an American.
>Tell me who got the better treatment.
Off-topic and feeding the trolls, but I don't care. I'm sick of this argument.
Two wrongs don't make a right.
Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
Geez. We learned this stuff in preschool.
And yes, I am an American. And I'm staying here to vote against the people who think like you.
Peameal or backbacon...I think it is geographically dependent (the term "peameal" seems to be mostly used in Ontario and points east--out here in the west you'd likely get the response "what the heck is peameal?")
One thing to note is that like Chinese food served in North America, "Canadian Bacon" as served in the US is a pale and inaccurate imitation of the real thing--it is NOT seasoned nor cured the way it actually is in Canada. It's like calling corned beef Montreal Smoked Meat (they're different and it's always disappointing when the former is pawned off as the latter).
If you like the real thing but can't find it in the US, try ordering it from this site.
Anyways, to keep this post on-topic, I'd say that "corporate Canada" and "corporate America" are pretty much like "US style Canadian Bacon" and peameal/backbacon--quite similar in general but when you look further you notice differences. Among them:
* The "competitive drive" is not as pronounced in Canada. Americans seem to place more importance on climbing the ladder, job titles and so on. Canadians strive to move up, but it doesn't seem the emphasis on being "VP" or "Regional Manager". We don't care what our title is so long as we are fairly compensated.
* Canadian business seems more fixated on process and bureaucracy. My employer is a global corporation, and even within the same company there is more paperwork and business processes seem more combersome than in our American offices.
* Be prepared for a shock when you see your first paycheque. The income tax, CPP (pension) and EI (employment insurance) deductions will take a bigger chunk of your earnings than you are used to. That and your salary will be a bit smaller to start with (don't worry, it's in Canadian dollars so it won't APPEAR to be significantly less). Overall the tax take is higher but it is taken in bigger chunks. In the US, you have federal, state, municipal taxes, health insurance, this fee, that fee, etc. US government nickels and dimes. In Canada they clobber you in the head and take your money all at ones, more or less (except for the GST).
* Cost of living is cheaper in Canada overall--Houses cost a bit less, medicare is cheaper, food is a bit cheaper, broadband internet access and cable TV are significantly cheaper (for you slashdotters out there). Makes up for the insanely high gasoline prices.
There's more but you get the idea...kind of a parallel universe really...
It is not always the case that taxes will be lower. I worked in California a few years ago, and my taxes were actually higher than Alberta. It really depends on what state and province are being compared.
Actually...there was a documentary by Michael Moore called "Bowling for columbine", one of the points in the movie was why we had more gun violence than canada and he broke down the points most people make (More violence on US TV, more guns in US, etc..) and these points were basically false (as he proved one by one), for the most part US and Canada have the same number of gun ownerships per person....
You are correct, but the biggest difference is in the number of handguns. America has about 9-10 times the population of Canada, but in that chart 63 times the number of handguns. You can get rifles fairly easy here (hunting), but handguns and now bullets (for any gun) are harder to get here than in the US.
I've always been of the opinion that there are more guns in a major US city (say New York or LA) than there are in all of Canada.
"But I trust in the people's capacity for reflection, rage and rebellion." -Oscar Olivera
I'm a Canadian. I've lived on the West Coast, in Winnipeg, and in Eastern Ontario. I also spent a year in the U.S., living in L.A. (Pasadena), and have been close to several Americans over the past 15 years.
I've worked in the public sector (universities and health care as a medical physicist) and in the private sector (largish public software company, several smaller private firms.) I now own my own company (http://www.predictivepatterns.com).
In one of my previous positions the company was run by Americans but staffed by Canadians, and it made me acutely aware of the cultural differences between the two countries. The Americans wanted cheer and ethusiasm. The Canadians weren't having any. They produced solid results, but they just couldn't be all happy and excited about it, and they found the Americans' attitudes extremely wearing. The Canadians' attitudes drove the Americans nuts.
So an American coming to Canada shouldn't be fooled by the fact that most of us speak something like the same language and have some other similarities. Canadians are different. We are more small-c conservative and more small-l liberal. We are stupid and wasteful in less obvious ways than Americans. We own lots and lots of guns but hardly ever shoot anyone with them.
Our national govenment is the only one in the G8 that has its fiscal house properly in order--we have run a surplus for long enough that I can't remember offhand the last time we had a deficit (sometime in the mid-90's) and we are steadly paying down our national debt. Most provincial governments are in less good shape, but still take fiscal probity seriously.
As a business-person, I love it here. You can incorporate nationally on-line for a total of $220. The federal government is a world-leader in supplying services electronically. Labour laws are a lot tighter here than in the U.S., but the work-force is generally well-educated and even unions are a lot more reasonable than they were 20 years ago. Taxes are somewhat higher, but this is largely compensated for by not having to pay for private health insurance.
The per-capita cost of health care is significantly lower in Canada than the US. We have a three-tier health care system, in which basic service is paid for via taxes, small levels of enhanced service are available for relatively small fees, and the very rich have U.S. hospitals ready to serve them right across the border.
The basic level of care for a wide range of things is as good or better as the U.S. average, but it's widely recognized that the basic health-care system is increasingly broken. If how we dealt with the federal deficit is any indication, there will be a decade of sometimes quite nasty debate that will end in a fairly broad concensus on what to do, and we'll do it.
Americans sometimes see that we are polite, and think us weak. They see that we are calm, and think us passive. They see that we are content, and think us stupid. They are wrong on all counts.
--Tom
Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
I live in Windsor, ON and work in Dearborn, MI (a suburb of Detroit). My round trip commute is 54km/34mi or about an hour per day. I've had the opportunity to work in both countries, and I've noticed a few differences:
:)
- There is definitely more career opportunity in the U.S. It also seems easier to shine (not just *my* opinion), probably because with such a vast economy, there is plenty of opportunity to hire some real duds.
- You'll almost definitely make more money in the U.S. I enjoy the best of both worlds, paid in U.S. dollars, yet live in lower-cost Canada. Taxes are higher in Canada, but housing, utilities and food is somewhat lower.
- U.S. medical coverage is wonderful, as long as you have insurance. The Canadian system is actually quite good, except for certain types of procedures where there are unacceptably long waits. (I love having medical coverage in both countries.) Yes you pay for the Canadian system in terms of taxes, but don't lose sight of all the co-pays and hidden fees that come with most U.S. insurance programs. A coworker of mine recently had an extended stay in a U.S. hospital, and all those little fees added up to over $1000 USD.
- Culturally, I notice a few small differences in general, but most of the people I work with in the U.S. are wonderful, equally nice as the folks I've worked with in Canada. Canadians in general seem to be a bit more polite (seems hard to get a "you're welcome" out of many Americans), and Americans are definitely more confident and aggressive (which probabaly explains their business success). But most of the stereotypes mentioned here are just wrong in my opinion.
Work in Canada or the U.S.? It's really a matter of personal taste. You can't lose, as long as you work hard and find a nice place to work, I think you'll live very comfortably in either country.
By the way - those who said it's difficult to work in Canada are wrong. Computer folks under NAFTA have plenty of ways to obtain employment in either country.
-Steve-