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Germany to Vote Against Software Patents in the EU
YKW writes "According to Ars Technica, Germany has decided to vote against all changes to current European patent laws. In a statement given to demonstrators in Germany, Federal Department of Justice Minsterial Director Elmar Hucko read the riot act to the EC: 'Under no circumstances do we want American procedures in Europe, Hucko vowed with regard to the US patent process. A patent must be "a fair reward for a bona fide invention and not abused as a strategy to bludgeon competitors.' With the largest EU member against software patents and French IT leaders lobbying their goverment to vote against them too, Europe might be saved from software patents. At least for a while. An older Slashdot article about software patents in Europe is here."
I am curious to see how this will play out with big US companies like Microsoft and Apple, specifically with foreign competitors cloning their products.
Will Microsoft be able to prevent Windows clones from being sold in the US by US patents, even though they may be legal in Europe?
On Groklaw, this was reported last Thursday. Not only will Germany vote no, but there is some pretty heavy pressure on France to do the same. In fact, to quote Groklaw, "They call business methods patents on software corporate racketeering and say they don't want to copy US methods"
The entities putting pressure on the French govt. include the head of MandrakeSoft, who has pretty heavy pull over in France. In fact, IIRC, a lot of French govt. agencies use Mandrake Linux.
bash: rtfm: command not found
Who wins there? I would think local law would trump any treaties, but am I wrong?
bash: rtfm: command not found
A patent in country A is not valid in country B, is it?
This is an example of how countries in Europe are *not* run by large corporations, but by the people (at least compared to the US).
Not everyone has a shop in their backyard sophisticated enough to build anything their imagination can dream of.
I've been reading how the U.S. government has lost quite a bit of "face" lately because of the Iraq prison scandal and other things related to our presence in Iraq.
And now here we read from leaders of other nations, "Under no circumstances do we want American procedures in Europe." It seems that dissing the U.S. is going to become more regular.
I think that just a few weeks ago we might have heard the same guy say something like, "I don't think software patents are such a good idea." Or perhaps that he was giving the idea some consideration.
But now we don't seem to have the moral high ground that we used to have.
(American == bad) && (!American == good)
"9/11 has shown you can built tons of rockets and warships it does not save you from the massive dangers of disproportionateness ."
- us in the EU can focus on non-military affairs precisely because the US takes care of the missiles n' guns part of business. As for "disproportionateness", the Africans aren't a problem to the US, nor are the Indians or the Chinese. Rather, the relatively cash-endowed gulf states are the source of the current little imbroglio.
That Europeans see "disproportionateness" as the problem is mostly due to one of our traditional industries - Bad Ideology Production, in which we have a long and proven track record (though no patent system...). Nothing like some pidgin Marxism to explain the world, no?
A few points: "disproportionateness" had very little to do with the Balkan wars(pre WWI), WWI, the Balkan wars (post WWI), WWII, the Russo-Finnish war, the Cold War, the Balkan Wars (modern), and so on. When disproportionateness causes strife, it has usually been inside a particular country.
Regards, Döbeln
-Stabil som fan!
...FhG and other groups that receive government funding in Germany will be giving up their all their math- and software-related patents, too. After all, such a ruling would put Dolby, for instance, at something of a disadvantage in Europe, wouldn't it?
I agree, however I constantly want to emphasise the EU started as a peace project after world-war II no one thought about economic benefits or draw-backs. Now in the 1990ies we concentrated mainly on the economic aspects. However I think it's important to keep in mind the political aspects EU - and it's economic way of integreation to ensure peace where it lais it hands upon.
The new countries will now make a hard a time! Just think what the unionation of germany ment for west germany. They still aren't over to the top-hill.
--
Karma 50, and all I got was this lousy T-Shirt.
Maybe I'm ignorant, but I thought patents applicable to software algorithms (e.g. RSA, GIF, and MP3) could be filed for in European countries.
For example, here are some of Fraunhofer's patents that are relevant to MP3:
(da list)
Does the term "software patent" refer only to things like translucent windows, and not include more technical matters like MP3 and RSA?
Or is the idea (I hope!) that such patents would no longer be allowed? Or maybe that the EU would just not pressure all of its members to respect them?
Patenting simple ideas and abusing legitimate businesses tends to be the realm of large businesses, not private parties, though it does happen both ways.
Nonetheless, requiring fabrication is a burden that places most patents in a class that only wealthy businesses can pursue.
Finding a private backer isn't all that easy, especially when you can't reveal your invention because you haven't patented it. Saving money can either take time or be beyond the realm of possibility. Patents were made for the small man, NOT for the mega-corporation. That's changed significantly in the years between.
My great grandfather, in his lifetime, twice invented something that could revolutionize the automotive industry. The first time, he could not find a private backer, nor would his wife let him put their house at risk to get the money to patent it himself. He took a gamble on the good will of the men in Detroit, and lost. Terribly. His invention was stolen.
The second time he came up with something far more amazing. This time, he was able to get the money to pursue patenting it. He couldn't get a patent, though, because his prototype was deemed inadequate. He fully intended to pursue marketing it to a company which could make use of it, but he didn't, because he couldn't protect it.
I've personally designed several things that could be quite impactful, but I'm unable to pursue marketing them to companies that could make use of them because I lack the very sophisticated and expensive resources necessary to begin down the path required by the present system. Though I prefer ideas be in the public domain, I know that, generally speaking, to bring an invention or improvement to a wide market so that it will be useful, it must be protected by a patent so a company will consider using it. What can I do? Nothing, presently. It's really killed my passion for invention.
Genuine innovation, and the pursuit of marketing that innovation, is indeed possible without the resources for fabrication. It's happened a lot over the years, but most people aren't able to do anything with it, because the present system is classist.
I agree with what you said but I think there is a little more to that. I belive a basic misunderstanding between americans and "other people" (btw, I am european) is that when americans and "non americans" refer to "America" they refer to two different things. Where an american, may refer to things like their friends, the place they grew up into, where they got the chance to study and develop a business and they got theyr shoot at the stars, a non american sees America as a country who moves in the international world to defend their interests, sometimes in a fair way, other times not. I am sure an american reader would be blunt to hear that America is not for capitalism when it is a matter of dealing with other countries, as it supports "free competition" often just when their products are competitive and hide behind "grater national interests" otherwise. America's goes to IRaq because Saddam was a dictator, but wecomes Pakistany leader as a buddy, The EU IT market is by all means open (getting a visa is a matter of paperwork) to US contractors, where the US market, by all practical means is closed to Europeans. I have other examples but you got the idea.
All said and done, USA is a democracy, that means America's attitude towards "the others" is ultimately a responsability of american citizens taken as a whole, if u understand this, u can have an understanding of the resons why somebody around the planet can be "kind of disappointed" with american people (taken as a whole). Of course this should not translate into hatres against this or that american citizen (btw, I have plenty of american friends) but I am writing this from a confortable position, nice house, good job. If I was writing from a palestinian camp (just to name one example) my view could indeed be more radical.
Der Spiegel (article in German) does not agree with you. Maybe they also listened to Heise but it does not look like it.
Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
In case you do not know, I will do you a little HISTORY lesson. The US came into WW1 because the german made the FATAL error of sinking some of your ship at the wrong moment of the war (1916) 2 YEAR after it had begun. In other word, were those ship intact, US would have sit back to the other side of the pond. Furthermore US came at a time when the war was already decided (with germany on the losing side).
Now let us see another fact : WW2. US Also ONLY came into the war when Pearl Harbour occured , a FULLY 2 years in the war 1941. Should I remind you that the war started in 1939 ???
"Who was busy giving up the bulk of the secrets to USSR during the cold war until voted out?" Really ? You should please citate the number of secret "given" out by France. Furthermore you should get a list of the spying the US did in France, and the number of secret "given" out by the US & weapon given to sud american dictator to fight "communist" rebellion.
"France keeps trying to use us to try and regain their powers of old."
As opposed to US imperialism attacking country on their own despite not having the mandate from the UN and the world being against it ?
Please let us not start the game of mud throwing. A few years ago France might have had as much dirt as you, especially bungled stuff like the "rainbow warrior", but France is since long not a super power on its own anymore. Unlike the US which is abusing on economical , political front its superpower status. Dirt is cumulating so quick at US doorstep it is a shame.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
I don't see anywhere here mentioned that RMS was in "the new Europe" last week having lectures about software patents.
He had one lecture in Prague and one in my hometown Bratislava (possibly also elsewhere, don't know). I actually stood like a meter from RMS last Friday! The lecture was a really great experience.
Some people have speculated that this was the reason the US went to war against Iraq. Iraq was intending to sell it's oil in euros rather than US dollars, and the US wanted to send a message that this can't be tollerated.
There are a couple of articles like This one (I don't know how reliable they are though).
He took a gamble on the good will of the men in Detroit, and lost. Terribly. His invention was stolen.
Well, I hate to say it, but that was his mistake. Perhaps he should have gotten some advice from a lawyer or a businessman first. As another poster alluded, your great grandfather should have had a contract written up which would have prevented the automotive companies from stealing his idea (ie, allowing him to retain rights to any resultant patents). If it was as revolutionary as you claim, I'm sure the automotive industry would have signed the contract.. He chose not do to that, though, likely due to naivete (certainly not his fault), and the rest is history.
He couldn't get a patent, though, because his prototype was deemed inadequate.
Then it was inadequate. I hardly see how this is the USPTO's fault. Build a better prototype. *shrug*
It's happened a lot over the years, but most people aren't able to do anything with it, because the present system is classist.
Boo hoo. I say again, the USPTO doesn't exist in order to protect your average inventor and their pet ideas. As for your complaint that "the present system is classist", that is really a problem with capitalism... the fact is, the people with resources are the ones who are capable of developing new ideas. Big surprise. It takes money to develop new ideas into real, valid products. The USPTO can hardly be blamed for this.
The alternative is that you let just anybody patent absolutely anything. Great. So, instead of truly innovating, i.e., coming up with a new idea, creating a prototype, and actually *bringing it to market*, I'll just do the first part! Then, when some company independly develops my idea, I'll just sue them!
Sorry, but I prefer the current system.
Now, I'm sorry to hear that you feel cynical about the way the system works. But it is what it is. If your ideas are so wonderful, take them to a company, convince them to sign an NDA, and develop your idea. If you can't do that, then maybe, just maybe, your idea isn't as great (or as feasible) as you assume.
This sort of legal definition.
I used to admire America, and in some ways still do - or with the American ideal at least. For better or worse, I believe in human rights, democracy, equality and liberty.
What pisses me off is the extremely bad rap the US foreign policy has given these ideals. It is extremely difficult to preach the ideology of ``Western-styled democracy'' to others when the self-appointed global defender of democracy acts in such hypocrite ways.
I've given up on America, I just hope they will fall away gracefully without starting World War 3. Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.
In the meantime, I shall take the lesson of ``eternal vigilance'' to heart and try to make sure it doesn't happen to my or other countries.
The Euro is a reserve currency. Naturally, it's still far from the USD, but it is being used as a reserve currency.
I about 15% of China's national reserve are in Euros, for instance.
There is no point in allowing people to just patent an idea without any prototype. What would stop a person or groups of people from just thinking up all kinds of crap all day long and patenting everthing then can? That person or persons are bound to come up with some ideas that will be put into use someday. So they should be able to sit back and collect money for no work?
I am a programmer and can think up tons of ideas of what technology _may_ be around in the next 5-10 years. Should I be allowed to just patent those and then go on a suing spree in 5-10 years when there is anything that is close to my patenets?
The patent system is not made to make any single inventor rich (though that may be a side effect), but to enrich society as a whole with _new_ and _novel_ ideas, methods and products.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land,
it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy. -James Madison
> US National Debt = $7,147,545,929,573.40
Just more Washington-rithmetic.
Once you add in military retirement payments, Social Security (empty "trust fund"), etc., the national debt is $30 trillion.
gewg_
Since both france and the USA have enough nukes to char broil each other. And since when has talking about going to war against a democratic, peaceful, and nuke bearing western european country been a sane thing to talk about in the USA? It's that kind of humanity risking talk that causes anti-americanism.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.