Germany to Vote Against Software Patents in the EU

YKW writes "According to Ars Technica, Germany has decided to vote against all changes to current European patent laws. In a statement given to demonstrators in Germany, Federal Department of Justice Minsterial Director Elmar Hucko read the riot act to the EC: 'Under no circumstances do we want American procedures in Europe, Hucko vowed with regard to the US patent process. A patent must be "a fair reward for a bona fide invention and not abused as a strategy to bludgeon competitors.' With the largest EU member against software patents and French IT leaders lobbying their goverment to vote against them too, Europe might be saved from software patents. At least for a while. An older Slashdot article about software patents in Europe is here."

Comments

First Post!

[thewldisntenuff]

Our neighbors across the pond might actually have a good idea for once :) ...

If the WIPO can get a standard software patent system across both sides (US and Euro), preferrably like the Europeans, we might not be reading Slashdot headlines every morning that read "Apple Patents the English Language!", etc. The US Patent system is dated, and needs change, especially when such patents can be made and there is such a high backlog of patents...Time shall tell, but this may be the first step in getting software/IP patents sorted out

Re:First Post!

[cshark]

If this goes through, and is successful in Europe, I would imagine that it would only be a matter of time before the US conforms to a similar system. That would certainly make my life easier. Europeans aren't so bad. Many of the things they're doing in modern Europe are downright sensible. Socialized medicine for example. But that's a subject for another post. Glad to see it's not the whole world that gone mad. Just us crazy Americans...

Re:First Post!

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Canadian, we rely on you to invent and produce medicines so we can loot them

You Sir, are a despicable bottomfeeding greedmonkey who believes that if he cannot get ahead of everybody else in something, then that something is communist, evil and a work of Satan. If you like the US style medical system so greatly, do not let the door hit on your way down South.

Also for your information, Canada has many research facilities and I am personally involved with companies manufacturing unique pharmaceutical products which are being exported to the USA. There is great profit to be made since the drugs sell at insane prices down there. So much for looting. The only one who wants to loot things here is you. You, in your abysmal arrogance, believe that you are special and will be forever able to earn enough income to guarantee yourself superior medical care. All of it possible only because generations of Canadians through their common effort have built a place for you to piss about in. Yet you, like any right-wing asshole out there, will certainly take exclusive credit for everything good that happens to you claiming that its a result of your hard work. That is why you consider capitalism a religion. Never you mind that Canada is as capitalist as it is reasonable to be. The purpose of the entire excercise is to make life for all Canadians better and not just to make a few whiney jerks into millionaires at the expense of everybody else.

Well, my wish for you is that you go to the USA, denounce Canadian citizenship (because we are the communist paradise), get in an accident, be unable to work and your medical costs exceed 10 times your insurance coverage. I hear dying of a curable illness because you cannot afford the cure sucks. Have fun. That is what you deserve.

Hm, interesting...

[NeoChaosX]

And for the Americans who may ask "It's Europe; who give a flying fuck?", you need to know that the entire European Union is much larger than the United States, both in population and economy. And since Germany is the EU's largest member (and the article also points out efforts in France to block the software patent laws), this this could really heat up the war over software patents.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe you're a bit behind the times. These days, it's the entire world that says "It's America, fuck them!"

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Anonymous Coward]

But who has more nukes and other WMDs?

That's really the only stat that matters in the american mindset.

I can already see the "EU patent laws are a bigger threat to our national security than Iraqi WMDs!" speaches. Think about it a second and you'll see it's even true!

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Talence]

I think it's safe to say that every country has its share of bigoted idiots. The good news is that we don't need to let friendships between people be defined by borders: you will always be able to find that 1 person in another country who is closer to your way of thinking than many of your co-citizens. Even a very bigoted American online "friend" of mine of the "let's nuke the world" type appeared to have more prolonged and bitter fights with other Americans than with others.

If Europe blocks the new patent laws, then as a European I am very very glad. However, I share the belief that the U.S. will also potentially benefit from it. It's good. Let common sense and reason prevail so that we all come out better.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[killjoe]

If they do then it's all just hot air. Until the rest of the world stops buying american products they will suffer under our "leadership".

People of the world. Get your shit together.

Do not buy american products.
Do not go to american movies.
Do not listen to american music.
Do not wear american clothing.

People in the US laugh at you every time they see a protestor wearing a pepsi shirt or eating a mcdonalds.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[TenPin22]

US National Debt = $7,147,545,929,573.40

Or if you like $7.1 Trillion.

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm

Dunno what the EU National debt is but I don't think we run a $500 Billion trade deficit and the Euro isn't a reserve currency and you can't buy oil directly with Euros (yet).

Once you see the Euro as a reserve and oil currency you can kiss the US economy goodbye.

All that American debt testifies to the USA's free ticket to creating dollars out of thin air. As long as they aren't spent in the USA they can effectively pay interest in dollars on the dollars it borrows from Asia, Russia, Europe, China and the Middle East.

Once the rest of the world wakes up and starts trying to get out of the dollar for whatever reason (oil peak, war, terror attacks), allllll that cash will flow back to the USA and cause hyperinflation.

Yes, the USA is heading for complete financial collapse taking most of the world with it leaving the EU to emerge as the dominant economic world power.

If you look at history currency systems have only ever lasted about 30 years so we are long overdue for a complete crash since the USA stopped backing the dollar with gold in the 1970s.

It's been a fun last 50 years but the party is almost over !

Oh yeah and getting back to the topic, no software patents in Europe could be an incentive for companies to base in Europe only furtherering the USA's economic decline.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Yokaze]

> People in the US laugh at you every time they see a protestor wearing a pepsi shirt or eating a mcdonalds.

I think this is the perfect picture showing the "You are either with us or against us","The world hates us"-attitude

Maybe they fail to remember that, very likely, the very same people demonstrating went to American embassies to express their condolences.
Maybe those people fail to realise that those protestors are against a certain administration representing a certain policy.
Maybe they are plain too dumb to understand that those demonstrators simply want to demonstrate their dissatifaction with the US administration policies but don't want the US economy to go down into a slump and see them be unemployed.

And what would the reaction of those American people be when the world would boycott their products? Wouldn't it even enstrengthen the "World hates us"-feeling?

Re:Hm, interesting...

[VanillaCoke420]

The world is not black and white. You can't act all the time with this simplistic binary thinking. "You don't like some of our foreign policies? Well then you're not allowed to like anything that we do!". Eh, yeah that's smart. Why would your music get any worse just because some of the things your president does aren't all good? Why would the entertainment value of your movies get worse? Why do I have to make the choice of either hating you all for everything you do, or to love you all for everything you do?

Re:Hm, interesting...

[flossie]

Please explain what mystery economic process would cause this. It doesn't matter if I buy my oil in pesos or groats, it still costs the same, and the exchange rate is still 27 pesos to the groat no matter which currency I use.

The mysterious process that would cause the US economy to collapse is the change in exchange rates. While US dollars are the reserve currency in which oil is traded, all nations need to ensure that they have a fistful of dollars in reserve with which they can buy oil. This means that the US treasury can print and spend dollars and can get goods in return while being confident that most of these dollars are safely tied up in foreign national banks and will not be "cashed in" against the US reserves. In effect the US has literally been able to print money since the gold standard was abolished.

If Euros become the new reserve currency, all of a sudden there will be a whole lot of dollars used to pay off any trade balances with the US. Instead of getting goods in return for paper, the US will start to get paper in return for goods. The final effect will be massive inflation in the US and a plummeting dollar on the international exchange markets.

If you want a slightly more coherent and well thought out explanation of this, I suggest you read Will Hutton's The state we're in.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[Bananenrepublik]

Until the rest of the world stops buying american products they will suffer under our "leadership".
Don't the US have a hugedforeign trade deficit? I.e. they actually import much more than they export? So in a sense you could say that the rest of the world already did.

Re:Hm, interesting...

[matt4077]

You dont't get it. The world does not protest american products, movies, music, clothing or McDonalds (some do, but I'm talking about the reasonable rest).

The world protests American foreign policies. If they were to boycott American Everything, it would be much easier to call them Anti-American. They're not Anti-American. They love the American Way of Life, American Freedom and everything. They just wished the US would live it's own dream, instead of participating in the historic experiment "Why Rome collapsed".

Re:Hm, interesting...

[orcrist]

Don't the US have a hugedforeign trade deficit? I.e. they actually import much more than they export? So in a sense you could say that the rest of the world already did.

In fact that's been the case for most of my life, I think. However, I have a personal theory that the U.S. exports something a bit more ephemeral than products:

Our appetites and whims. Yes, you read that right. I truly think that the immense *hunger* of the U.S. consumer (pun intended) translates into a power over the world market which influences companies around the world to cater to those desires. Then, since it's more efficient to market your appeal to a somewhat uniform market, those companies turn around and sell things to their own compatriots in an 'American' way.

This is just my little theory about this subject. I could be wildly off base, but it rings true to me.

-chrs

strategy

[bladesjester]

all that companies in the EU will have to do if software patents are denied in the EU will be to set up a small arm of the company in the US. since most software products are sold here as well, they can just do the litigation here in the US. all it would take is for the company violating the patent to have an office or bank account in the US or to sell the offending product in the US...

Re:strategy

[bladesjester]

doesn't matter if the EU honors them or not. as long as two things happen

1) the company in the EU has a branch in the US through which to file the patent with the US patent office

2) the company accused of violating this patent has either an office or bank account in the US or sells the product which allegedly violates the patent in the US.

if those two conditions are met, the company holding the patent can sue in the US, bypassing the EU completely.

Re:strategy

[Anonymous Coward]

...but only in the US for business done in the US.

So that means that if Mandrake XVI has some technology that is patented by Microsoft, all Microsoft can do is sue MandrakeSoft US for business it has done in the US, not for all of MandrakeSoft's businesses throughout the world.

Right?

Patents work.

[digitalPortal]

The overall premise of patenting an invention is valid and protects the inventor. However, I agree the current system is highly abused. The flaw in the current system, is the ability to patent 'IDEAS' even if you cant physically create a functioning prototype. For example, right now you can patent the 'IDEA' of a hovercraft car, and 50 years from now when someone actually develops a hovercraft car...they *must* pay royalties to you. ???? this needs to be changed. You should only be able to patent physical process (algorithms, products) and not ideas. -$0.02

Re:Patents work.

[Abcd1234]

Then save up some money, or get a private backer. The patent system doesn't exist to protect every single inventor and their pet ideas. It exists to encourage inventors to disclose their ideas (thus encouraging further innovation) while retaining the ability to gain a profit from them via a limited monopoly on the idea. 'course, it's a little tough to gain profit from an idea if you can't even afford to create a friggin' prototype. So, patents won't help you... big surprise, that's not their purpose! Unless, of course, your aim is to dream up wild ideas and patent them on the off chance that you'll have an opportunity to extort some poor company. And if that's your plan... well, let's just say I'm glad you're not the head of the USPTO.

Re:Patents work.

[linuxhansl]

I agree, a patent is by itself a good concept.

For software (aswell for music and movies, btw), however, copyright law already regulates ownership. Allowing patents on software is like allowing patents on sequences of tunes or on sequences of images. It's absurd.

With copyright governing in the software world, you can be sure that whatever you write yourself from scratch is yours. With Patents allowed you may infringe on existing patents without your knowledge. That is the big difference.

I don't know our friends in the music industry would react if patents on sequences of tunes or images would suddenly be allowed.

Amen

[WindowLicker916]

Hopefully this will eventually cause change in the American patent system. The current system pratically stifles competition and clogs our court systems, costing millions to tax payers. I mean, come on, why should one click shopping be considered a patentable idea?

Re:Amen

[penguinoid]

I mean, come on, why should one click shopping be considered a patentable idea?

Because it is worth several billion dollars to have a patent (monopoly) on it.

Re:Amen

[cmacb]

But only with our patent system. It's a self fulfilling prophesy that if you create an artificial limit on the availability of anything (in this case ideas) that what little remains will become more "valuable". If international trade continues to be the way of the world, only an international patent system with some "World Court" form of adjudication can make it work. Otherwise, we here in the US will continue our circle jerk in our own courts while unfettered innovation will take place somewhere else.

Somethings got to give here. I wish I knew what it would be.

Well

[acceber]

I suppose if Germany decides not to support the European Commission on changes in the law to software patents, then nobody can sway them otherwise because they are a sovereign state and don't have to comply with what the WIPO or the EC says.

The WIPO as an agency of the UN, can aim to standardise patent laws worldwide but of course, international law isn't binding and Germany has all the right in the world to choose not to recognise law outside of their domestic jurisdiction.

Ultimately, if Germany doesn't have the political will to support the EC on changes to software patents...then nobody can force them.

I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[Anonymous Coward]

It must be a sign of how jaded I've become .. I get no joy out of this announcement because there are probably 500 different things that will happen to reverse it or otherwise change it.

I fully expect the United States to exert effort at the request of $LARGE_COMPANY on Germany to "harmonize" with US law.

Then when/if US intellectual property law comes up for debate, the US will say "we can't have different laws than Europe, we must harmonize!"

Who knows.. I'm not optimistic.

Re:I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually the US can't force the EC to do anything anymore. As someone pointed out, they have a larger economy (more people, yes... but it's still a larger economy). And frankly america has "lost face" over iraq, and this damages prestige. Prestige is hard to quantify, but if you piss everyone off over one issue... other things get harder.

So the war in iraq isn't *just* sapping millions of dollars a day from the US, you are also losing prestige. Furthermore, your prestige is also going to take a *huge* blow if you pull out of iraq and let it become a hellhole/puppetdemocracy/iran2/whatever. People will say, "look that 'superpower' can't even conquer a tiny country properly - we have nothing to fear".

So there are interesting days ahead, I for one used to believe in america as an ideal - dislike most of the people yes, but the ideal was there. You were my kin, I would have considered dying defending your shores were you under mortal threat (just as the french fought by you at your birth)... but now, I am indifferent, because not only do I dislike most americans now, but I think the american ideal has changed drastically. It is not something worth defending. Your legislators have wiped their asses on the constitution so many times you cannot read the print for the shit. And your populance has stood by and let this happen.

Now the american ideal is the american cautionary tale for how not to let your democracy fail. Some will learn from it, others will not. Life will continue.

America has left a mark on history, and it is still up for grabs as to what that mark exactly is. But right now, it's looking like a stain.

Dear America,

[adept256]

Your patent laws are a train wreck.

Sincerly,

The rest of the world.

Economic Advantage

[St. Arbirix]

Methinks that the EU might be a good place to look into for some fun IT work if they regard the US system like that.

Think on it: Within the EU software ideas will run wild, everyone having access to nuance inventions in their software, whilst over here in the US you won't be allowed to measure the length of a click, run an application within another, nor make an entire window transparent without getting permission from someone else (possibly paying for it).

I wonder how long it will be before free Elvis albums won't be the only product of Europe States-side corporations will try to block.

--

Up through college in the US, everything else anywhere else.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Awptimus Prime]

I think I know what is going to happen:

Eventually, the EU is going to stomp all over US software firms. This will happen after a few years of unrestricted development.

If this pans out well, I'll be looking for citizenship in the EU in the next few years. What's so great about the US nowadays? We've demonstrated that our voting system has failed, that our leadership hates gays, muslims, and does nothing to protect middle america's jobs while all the fatcats get fatter by outsourcing anything and everything they can because they lost their sense of nationalism over a few dollars.

The way I see it, the US has had leadership without any real vision of tomorrow. This has resulted in a world of nations against it. The repair will require a lot more than a democrat in office, too. It will require people actually caring, and that is not going to happen anytime soon. Hell, look how well 9/11 "brought us together". All it brought together were the straight, old white people out in the boonies, and that's only because they all bought the same stickers, t-shirts, and other random 9/11 merchandise at the local gas station. For the rest of us, all we see is a nation filled with hate and sensless, highly reactionary, law making.

Geeks, get your passports ready.. EU or bust! :)

Re:heh

[talornin]

Is that so bad?

Id be apt to belive that running a nation based on the oposite of every action Bush takes would make a peacfull and harmonic nation of responsible people whos promary goal is not to make as much money as possible so they can eat as much junk food as possible.

Re:europs is finally free

[talornin]

Argh! As you Americans demand not to be held responsible for your forefathers keeping slaves, and as todays Germans can in no way be held accountable to Hitlers actions, as should todays Americans sit down and shut the fuck up about Hitler. You did nok keep slaves, therefore you shall not be responsible for it, you did not save uss from Hitler, therefore you can not claim respect and honor for that.

Re:heh

[maelstrom]

Its not bad if the issues are being carefully thought through and considered. I'd rather see the EU be PRO-something than ANTI-asomething.

Re:Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[Anonymous Coward]

It may just seem like you're noticing it now due to the recent scandals in the U.S but this has been going on way before the iraq prison scandal.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Roger Keith Barrett]

No... the problem is that over the Bush years there HAS been a vision of the future.

And that vision is that the future should be controlled by big corporations with no mediation from the government or anyone else.

Re:heh

[anshil]

Pro-Something? Heh! We're currently running the biggest peace project ever! We're uniting europe and just now slowly spreading to the east. Two weeks ago we embraced 10 new countries from the former east. It will cost us millons of billions to bring them to western standards and to get an equably spreaded weatlh - by the way a major goal of the EU - this is the only way to ensure permant peace, as unequality will always result in war&terrorism. Thats something the US does not get, 9/11 has shown you can built tons of rockets and warships it does not save you from the massive dangers of disproportionateness .

Re:Meanwhile, in France...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah I'm not french either. And although I like to have a dig at them occasionally the fact that I know it is probably americans modding this up (and who created tehe video) just ruins it. We english have been at war with the frogs and dissing them out for much longer and have a right to this humour.

Whereas you americans.... The french helped you fight us off, the french bled and died fighting for your freedom. That makes any jibe by an american toward them (ala the republicans not long ago) a spew of filth.

Disgrace. The french not supporting (i.e. verbal) your quite questionable war equates to treachery? How about remembering the guys who died for you, and died for an ideal.

fuck you, you stinking fucks. this is where anti-americanism stems from. right here, from your stinking ignorance and disrespect.

Re:heh

[Anonymous Coward]

And ironically, this would actually lead to a government almost always taking the correct option

Lobby

[Vitanova]

National parliaments do matter. You can still send e-mails to fi the parliament's commission for economic affairs. They can then put some pressure on the minister (secretary of economic affairs). Do create some stir. Especially if you are in one of the 10 new members too.

I think it's the double standards

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the main reason is: you set a lot of rules, then refuse to follow them yourself.

Examples: nuclear weapons pact, bioweapons pacts, chemical weapons pacts. You use your power position in the UN wrongly. You request following the Geneva treaty for people who have been imprisoned by your enemies, yet you set up concentration camps to Guantanamo and beat people to death in the Iraqi prison you control. Then you cry foul when a citizen is dramatically killed (Berg). And don't even think all of this started with 9/11. No, no.. it had been going on for a longer time. You have to go back to the beginning of the previous century to see all the details and find the reasons.

Whenever something happens to you, you cry foul, although there's a good chance you have already done something similar to some other country.

I think such double standards are the main reason of dislike towards USA. Using the power position to set rules for other, and then ruthlessly exploiting and ignoring them.

And remember, most people hate the country, and what it represents, and especially the government, but have no quarrels with the ordinary citizen.

I am posting this anonymously because it will draw a lot of flak from people who do not read this post with thought and consider this a flamebait. It's not. You can think yourself if the opinions in this post are correct or not and could this be the answer to your question.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

Why in Gods name would anyone want to clone Windows, its an unmitigated heap of rubbish?

We want a world free of patent rubbish so that people can be creative an innovative again.

Re:When it's all said and done...

[Anonymous Coward]

Spot on.
I've said this before here. What is going to happen when the huge backlog of trivial and unworthy patents are invalidated en masse? The stupid companies that spent money on them are going to lose them all outright. That would add up to billions of asset capital wiped off in an instant.

These big corporations may feel smug and clever at grabbing patents on swinging sideways and one click whatever, but who will be laughing when they are told they are worth nothing and the money has gone. Not the shareholders that's for sure.

Shareholders should act against companies making weak IP claims because they are just flushing money down the pan for the future.

If you think that Europe is not 'cooperating' with the (ridiculous) American way of thinking about these things wait until you hear what the rest of the world thinks about it. You think the Indians and Chinese are going to repect twisted patents?
Think again.

Re:Foreign competitors

[the drizzle]

Amen. An amendment against gay marriage? This is the pinnacle of our president's social policy? Whatever happened to the great uniter?

Whether one is for or against the policy of Iraq, the lack of disclosure from this administration is baffling. Any argument one can use against the Clinton administration (lack of disclosure, too much rhetoric) can be multiplied 10x with this administration.

But more to the point...Europe's economy is proving powerful (and increasingly united) against US policy, and we can either oblige their requests or become victim of their policies. We can force Microsoft to start operating fairly or ignore their practices until their business will be fined into financial hell in Europe and some German company takes over the desktop share (with a Linux/FreeBSD distro).

[meta] time for an EU icon?

[CComMack]

Just a suggestion: might it not be wise to create a topic and icon for matters pertaining to EU law, in parallel to the Stars and Stripes icon often seen on YRO stories pertaining to US law? I for one am finding the many "earlier Slashdot stories" referenced in the text of every EU software patent story one reads nowadays to be a tedious method of threading.

And before I get modded down by the Europe bashers, let me disclose that I'm an American who finds it edifying to keep up with events across the pond, and have no interest in the "Is Slashdot too Americentric" debate.

Re:Foreign competitors

[d_strand]

Charles Krauthammer (another republican editor from US news and world report) once called for parking an US aircraft carrier off the coast of france to intimidate them

Oh dear... I *really* hope he was just joking. Can you imagine the hatred that would create? You think the EU is anti-US today? Just wait and see what happens if your government tries something like that :-)

And it certainly wouldn't increase the chance of the EU to do Americas bidding, quite the opposite...

Pretty easy

[soccerisgod]

If the german government choses to not vote in favor of this, then only because they're sure their vote is not needed in order to have this passed.

Elections for european parliament are coming up. That's why. Don't be fooled for one minute by the german government: they voted against the iraq war even though they probably wanted it - to win elections. They don't critize the US for what happened in iraq recently, but are killing themselves to tell everyone how aweful the beheading of one US citizen was - to get a permanent seat in the UN security council.

Don't trust them. They WANT this law. They fought for it for years. They're just opportunistic, that's all.

Re:Pretty easy

[DanBrusca]

This has nothing at all to do with the European elections. 99.99% of the electorate probably don't even know what software patents are, let alone give a damn.

Re:Pretty easy

[anshil]

Well ain't this the very idea of democracy? To force the leaders to do that what the people want, and not to follow their own needs?

Re:Pretty easy

[ahillen]

Elections for european parliament are coming up. That's why.

Yes. And, I mean, everybody knows that software patents is a hotly debated topic where the average german/european voter is emotionally very attached to, right? Right.

they voted against the iraq war even though they probably wanted it - to win elections.

I don't have any reason to believe that the german government really wanted the war. And knowing the political history of the current ruling parties in Germany, doubly so.

Re:Doesn't anybody love us anymore?

[Vlad_the_Inhaler]

ok, read it as
"Under no circumstances do we want to repeat the mistakes the Americans made with their procedures, in Europe."
Saying the Americans got something wrong is not being anti-American, you will notice that US gun-control laws are virtually unique in the world and that has nothing to do with Iraq.

Don't panic, or at least don't be overly sensitive on an issue like this.

Big picture

[12357bd]

Good! The experiment continues, now we'll have software industry with & without patents in each side of Atlantic.

Monopolies (US economy) vs Regulations (EU politics).

In the long run EU-US / US-EU will have to synchronice not only patent systems, but also legal and fiscal proceedings. The first step is already done with the euro / dollar semi-parity, it seems the rest will follow as soon as world can accept.

What's in a sig?

Re:Big picture

[Anonymous Coward]

In the long run EU-US / US-EU will have to synchronice not only patent systems, but also legal and fiscal proceedings.

We have 400 million people in NAFTA (North American Free Trade Alliance) and the most awesome military and economic powerhouse the world has ever known. We don't have to do anything we don't want to do. In fact, we're going to be mounting a massive legal attack on the (EU's) export-economy-subsidy (VAT) system very soon. About the only thing the EU can do about it is take their business elsewhere, by trying to defragment the Russian, China and Subcontinent "middle classes" (as the primary market for their products and services, instead of the USA). The problem, of course, is that the EU doesn't have nearly enough money to do this unless they butter-up the Arab, Japanese and Chinese states that are already floating our US economy. (That is, EU has to get those investors to pull their money out of US and put it into the EU.) Of course, the problem that EU has there is that the US is the primary market for the goods and services sold by the main Arab, Chinese and Subcontinent investors --and when it gets to our military being of more strategic value to those investors than anything the EU could ever offer, you can see that the EU is in a most untennable situation in terms of pushing the US economy around. Indeed, the current run-up in the Euro/Pound started as a "warning shot" being fired by Wall Street across the bow of the EU. We'll take it back down to 1:1 in due course, but make no mistake --we control the horizontal, we control the verticle. EU is an unincorporated area of the US and they better get in line with our Intellectual Property and Security "procedures" or Wall Street will slap them down until they do. How did things get this way? It was called World War II and we get the reap the benefits from the intense sacrifice that our society made to save Europe and ultimately the planet ("Mr. Gorbechev, tear down that wall!) When Russia gets its oil refining and pipeline infrastructure in gear, the EU will gain more economic power, but for now I have to laugh my ass off when I hear the German, French (and Russian) ministers complain about US "procedures".

Disgraceful

[mccalli]

Then you cry foul when a citizen is dramatically killed (Berg).

Yes. And quite rightly so. A beheading is not a 'crying foul' matter, nor is it an excuse to score anti-US points on a tech bulletin board (provided to you, of course, by the people you seem to hate so much, the Americans). Total revulsion is surely the only acceptable reaction - two wrongs don't make a right. Accordingly, I have to regard your cheap shot as despicably low.

I'm not American and am drastically against many recent changes in the US, but please - a sense of perspective. I have many American friends, I have even more American friendly acquaintences (online forums, work etc). - it is not an evil nation. It shouts about itself rather too much and its current leadership are, at least in my opinion, somewhere between here and Alpha Centauri in terms of their grasp on reality but you're forgetting the people themselves. They'll correct it eventually, don't worry.

Cheers,
Ian (British)

Re:Disgraceful

[Anonymous Coward]

>>And remember, most people hate the country, and what it represents, and especially the government, but have no quarrels with the ordinary citizen.

>(provided to you, of course, by the people you seem to hate so much, the Americans)

Someone can't read.

EU vs Great Britain or US?

[Anonymous Coward]

We in the US think that this is really a poke at the US, but if I recall correctly, aren't the big pushers for the software patents really from Great Britain?

Sure, the example model to NOT implement is the US, but the country most likely to push the US model for software patents into the EU would be Great Britain, methinks.

Now, will Great Britain do an end-run around the process like it was trying to do before?

I hope that France goes against software patents, as well. Go France.

Here is one USian hoping that Europe sticks this one up my country's ass, covered with habanero sauce to boot.

Would it not be ironic if Switzerland (home country of CERN...) votes for them?

Re:Foreign competitors

[Pelops]

Well, talking about buying american products is not something completely accurate.
Do I buy an american products when i buy IBM or Coca cola ? The answer is far from simple when you think about it.
Don't forget that for examples Coca Cola exports very little. They use local factories to produce the soft drink. Same thing for IBM, they have factories all over Europe.
So when you buy an american product, you are not just giving money to the US, but also to those european countries who host those factories.
Nothing is as simple as black and white.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

Republicans hate france THAT much

And are apparently unaware that France alone has nuclear weaponry capable of doing serious catastrophic damage to the USA?

I don't know where the US gets its absurd image of France, but France is a large first-world nuclear power with global reach.

The US parking an aircraft carrier off France wouldn't intimidate them particularly. Not when the French could take out washington tomorrow.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

And the US does it anyway, given the US has essentially free reign in Irish and British waters - france doesn't get cowed, it just detonates another test nuke in the pacific as a gentle reminder...

"Software GDP"

[Max Threshold]

How can you define a "software GDP" when a U.S. company with a patent portfolio can suddenly declare that a few trivial lines of code are worth, say, three billion dollars?

Software is not a tangible product and it has zero value. Only the service of producing and maintaining it has value. The EU is on the verge of acknowledging this; apparently, Americans are the only ones stupid enough to be duped by companies "monetizing every little idea," as you so succinctly put it.

Re:private systems are not always the best solutio

[sydb]

pure private health care systems seems to be less effective and less efficient as well

Fairly obvious really, considering that private companies have as their primary objective the extraction of the largest possible profit margin.

How that goal leads to healthy people I simply don't know!

Re:Foreign competitors

[AstroDrabb]

I agree 100%. I am born and raised in good ole USA, serverd in the USMC and I am not anti-USA. Though I do hope that we get our butts kicked in the IT world by the EU, China and India. Not because I want to lose my job as a programmer of see others lose thier jobs. It is because our Patent system is very broken, and our big businesses are getting far to much political power that a corporation should _never_ have.

The repair will require a lot more than a democrat in office, too.

Democrats wont' help, they are just as bad as Republicans. Republicans want big business and Dems want big special interest groups such as unions. Look at these "donations" from the Teamsters Union almost all the money is going to Democrats. Contrast that with big business and almost all the "donations" are going to Republicans. The majority of the top 10 "donars" are giving the majority of thier "donations" to Democrats. We need the USA to get closer to a true democracy with more then two political parties to pick from. It is pretty insane to think that all 300+ million Americans fall into one of two political "buckets". And we also need to make it illegal for a corporation to give bribe money. If you cannot vote, you should not be able to make bribes^H^H^H^H^H^Hcampaign contributions.

Look at the top 100 "donators" for the period 1998-2004. Just the top 100 have bribed our politicians with $1,156,273,938! You can see why in our "represented" democracy, the average American is not represented. With billions USD going around in bribes, it is hard for even legit politicans to do thier jobs.

Re:Foreign competitors

[AstroDrabb]

You are really brainwashed by the USA political system. I am born and raised in the USA. What civil liberties does the USA have that are missing in the EU? Posting stupid, unsubstantiated comments like yours makes Americans look dumb to the rest of the world. The people of the EU are just as free if not more free with regards to rights then the people of the USA and have been at it a lot longer then we have. We should drop a little of our self centered pride and maybe we could learn something from the rest of the world.

Re:Foreign competitors

[orcrist]

You want to do what? Park an aircraft carrier just off the coast of the country that invented Exocet ?

My goodness. That'd certainly be a sight worth seeing! Brief, but worth seeing.

Brief? Sorry, no. I'm not one of those knee-jerk "America will kick your ass!" type of Americans but... no. And to the moderators, no it's not insightful. Interesting? Yes.

Your link mentions that it managed to heavily damage a frigate. There's a world of difference between a frigate and an aircraft carrier. From my tour of duty on submarines I can tell you that a frigate of that sort is considered to be a one-torpedo target; one torpedo will literally crack a frigate right in half. Battleships and aircraft carriers nominally need at least 2-3. And that's assuming you even get in range: 65 km? ROFLMAO.

An aircraft carrier is never alone. It is almost always accompanied by at least 2 attack subs and several surface ships ranging 150+ km. around the carrier. No surface ship is getting within even 200 km. of that carrier let alone 65 km. And submarines wouldn't have an easy time of it either. At best it would be a suicide mission (since once they fire, they'll have 2 fast-attacks, a swarm of P-3's, and an ASW cruiser on their ass) and they'd be likely to cause more damage if they simply use their torpedos, or better yet ram it at full speed.

Or, as other posters have pointed out, use nukes. A tomahawk with a tactical nuke and its 1100 km. range would do the trick, assuming the French have them :-P

Don't get caught up with this idea that just because the U.S. is behaving like a bunch of idiots in Iraq, and that guerilla tactics work against a modern army when it's the occupying force among an increasingly hostile populace that that translates to the ocean. Since the break-up of the USSR there is no one (or not even everyone together) who can challenge the U.S. on the seas. Period. That's why the Navy has turned into nothing more than a troop and munitions delivery service: A victim of its own success.

-chris

mod me Un-insightful

[moviepig.com]

What sort of legal definition could discriminate between a software and a non-software patent?

...and, bearing in mind that patents are a means of enlisting the prodigious creative efforts of the masses, isn't innovation in software at least as desirable as in any other arena?

(With respect to patent-abuse, anything can and will be abused. The question is always whether such negative side-effects can be suppressed enough to net a clear benefit.)

I assume /. has addressed these questions earlier, but I couldn't find succinct answers...

Re:Belgium will vote against as well!

[Anonymous Coward]

source?

I'm not denying that it's true, but you can't just cite things like this without proof.

Re:Ireland is to vote against it too

[Halo1]

It's now the Council of Minister's turn, the European Parliament had its say last September (and will have its next say after the Council decided). Although it's great to see that Irish MEPs will try to influence the Irish government, it's quite unlikely they'll succeed. The Irish presidency is, together with the UK, the strongest backer of software patents in the EU.

Nevertheless, actions like that can create press attention and that is very important. Politicians must realise this is an issue "the people" care about, and not just some technical matter which can be settled in back rooms.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

See also my previous reply:

An aircraft carrier off the coast of France would probably need to be in the English Channel to reliably be able to present any kind of threat.

There's not much maneuvering space there. Along much of the length of the channel the fleet would certainly be within range of both air and surface launched exocets (as well as many rather less sophisticated weapons as well, I'm sure), whereby the French Navy probably would hardly even need to leave port!

My original point was more that Charles Krauthammer probably hadn't really thought such a scenario all the way through. Sure, it *sounds* like a cool idea, until you look at the actual situation on the ground.

Three words: Making his point.

[Kjella]

"You are really brainwashed by the USA political system. (...) What civil liberties does the USA have that are missing in the EU?"

Free unfettered speech. The kind that will offend my neighbor, my government, anyway.

See, America has this great freedom in theory (First Amendment etc.) but in practice you had McCarthyism, trying to choke anti-war movement regarding Vietnam and the latest anti-terrorist/muslim/arab selfcensorship.

Ever noticed the uproar over a few coffins? Imagine showing their bloody bullet-ridden corpses lying in Iraq. Or how many think the tortured Iraqis "deserved what they got" in the US prisons?

The only place where we're more conservative than the US is when it comes to racism, which I think is your error in judgement, not ours. Think of it as class action libel/slander, which isn't legal neither here nor there.

We may not have that many great quotes, being spread over dozens of constitutions, some that say little about it at all. But I think you will find your freedom of speech is greater than in the US, whether you want to talk about drugs, abortion, religion, nudity, pornography, war or pretty much any other controversial topic.

Kjella

Political culture

[quax]

Having lived both in the US and the EU I don't even know where to start. You couldn't be more wrong about your concept of liberty by Permit only in the EU. All EU countries have constitutions that guarantee citizens right and protect their human rights - like not being arrested without due process - something that has now happened twice to American citizens who have been labeled enemy combatants and were denied their basic right to make a call to get a lawyer. Such abuse of executive power is simply inconceivable in the EU at this point.

But what I find even scarier is the culture of intimidation in the US (where I currently live again). In Germany it is perfectly normal to strike up a conversation about politics at the office e.g. at your lunch break. In Corporate America more often then not policies discourage the employees to discuss such controversial topics. Democracy can not work without public discourse. I think this is actually the underlying reason why the democractic processes are so broken in the US - people in this country do not talk about political topics any more because they are afraid they may offend somebody and fear the repercussions. A colleague of mine actually told me that she is afraid to show her political leanings because she knows that her boss doesn't share them and she's afraid that she wouldn't get a promotion if he knew. I never heart a similar sentiment expressed to me in Germany.

Re:Foreign competitors

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, which is why a US carrier was sunk *three* times in succession by the Royal Navy in exercises a few years back (Indian Ocean, I think). The British carrier involved was a fraction of the size and firepower of the US one. The US carrier captain was sent home, presumably to go on some more training... perhaps he could come here where we have a good reputation for training soldiers-that-think.

You know what they say about the US Military? 'All the Gear, but No Idea' - a bit harsh on those showing some real personal courage on the streets in Baghdad, perhaps, but as 9-11 so cruelly showed, the new enemies are not the ones you can lock onto with your super-duper-magic radar and blow to bits in 37 creative ways.

Re:one more step...

[feelyoda]

But that is the point...

Such a region is failing to pass the US.
Our economy is booming. They are laggards.

We are actively debating freedoms and liberties, with the Patriot Act and the backlash against it; there is little resistance against the onslaught of PC speech codes.

We make the barriers to business small, i.e. some states makes it very easy.

It only is getting harder in the EU where, where regulators are having an unopposed field day.

So, in terms of advancing technology, quality of life, wealth & opportunity, the US is "winning".

What are you talking about?

Re:Foreign competitors

[Alsee]

the USA has substantial advantages in the Ownership of Property

Considering the general subject here is software patents, are you are you reffering to Ownership (??capitalized??) of "Intellectual Property"?

Yeah, the US has absolutely mindboggling "advantages" in the Ownership of Intellectual Property. The US issues patents on software, granting Ownership of math. (My) Dumbass government.

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