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Area 51 Hackers Map Buried Surveillance Network
advair writes "There's a story on SecurityFocus about a pair of Area 51 'hackers' who discovered a buried network of wireless motion sensors on the public land surrounding the "operating location near Groom Lake, Nevada." Using a frequency counter and a GPS receiver, they tracked down and logged 30 - 40 of the sensors, before the FBI and Air Force raided one of them, and questioned the other. Now one of the guys has been charged with a federal crime for allegedly removing one of the devices that was protecting a base that doesn't officially exist."
Lob all you want, but dont forget that that same inept government developed the internet or at least what became the internet, and without it, you would still be posting comments like yours on dial up BBS's...
Oh those were the days!
"Our funds have never taken part in toxic or death spiral convertible financings of any sort" -BayStar's managing partne
If there ever was anything at Groom Lake, it won't be there now. The SECOND anyone knew that UFO nuts had got wind of it, anything interesting would have been moved somewhere else.
At a tangent - whatever happened to Bob Lazar?
I believe the military installation commonly known as Area 51 is actually an advanced aircraft development center, where they developed craft ranging from the old U2 spy plane to the F-117 stealth fighter. That would make a lot of the UFO sighting claims make sense.
-Meeper
Lot's of military bases have perimeter security and sensors. Try getting into Camp Peary in Virginia. Or any one of a number of other places.
oooo....But it's Area51! Obviously they are hiding something behind those sensors.
Ha. If there ever was anything alien there (highly doubtful), it's long since been moved. Hangar 18, maybe?
Several years ago the Sec. of Defense admitted its existence in a press conference. Hell, I can tell you what goes on there: nothing exciting. They test secret missile systems and secret aircraft.
Derek Greene
Don't forget that the government also brought us NASA, which has given us all sorts of useful technologies.
Now, granted he did rebury the devices, and granted, they were in the public park, not Area 51 itself, but it's not hard for the average person to see why this is a bad idea. There's a lot of stuff in "public" areas you're not allowed to monkey with. If a public park provided restrooms with those annoying motion-sensor faucets, does anyone think they would be within their rights to repeatedly take them apart?
Sure, there is a worry in this case about the government monitoring private citizens in a public place, but "approach" sensors invade privacy a lot less than swarms of armed guards peering through binoculars from the fenceline 24x7.
In short, this guy crossed the line. I understand being intrigued, and even outraged by these devices, but making a map is one thing, and once he figured out what the devices were he never should have touched them.
(Just had a scary thought on preview: what if the odd buried device he found had turned out to be a errant landmine? Of course it's massively criminal for it to be there, but there is a reason you don't got poking unknown military hardware...)
Innocent until proven guilty disappeared a few years ago. Due process is up next.
Seriously. We're talking about people who can't even keep their happy snaps from Iraq secret. The American government hasn't been able to keep a single secret longer than about 15 minutes. They's no aliens at Roswell, or you'd have already seen 500 pictures of them on CNN...
Ever heard of this concept? The simplest explanation is probably the best one. Let's start out with Area 51 being a "secret military base" that "doesn't officially exist". Area 51 exists, is acknowledged to exist, and is generally known as an Air Force base. So what could their motivation here be?
Probably that they're tired of a bunch of crazy conspiracy theorists trying to get a photo of the "aliens" on the base. The idea that Area 51 is a government hoax is ridiculous. Anyone who works or has worked for the US Federal Gov't knows the insane levels of bureacracy that you have to deal with on a daily basis, and you don't get thinking anywhere near that creative from the federal government.
Let's stop making such a hugely asinine deal about this. Get out of your basement and stop wearing your x-files t-shirts around.
-- K
Free hint: "almost everyone" don't live in the US. Honest!
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Lob all you want, but dont forget that that same inept government developed the internet or at least what became the internet, and without it, you would still be posting comments like yours on dial up BBS's...
OK, I don't mean to imply that the US gov't didn't develop the Internet, but I resent the notion that if the US hadn't, nobody else would've thought of it. I'm quite confident that one way or another, we'd still be using the Internet today, even if DARPA hadn't gotten the ball rolling. Someone else would have.
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
Amtrak's total subsidies have run about 10% of the subsidies provided for the airlines, and yet the public outcry over railroad subsidies has been greater. If you took away all the federal subsidies for air travel, the industry would have made a net profit of almost exactly zero dollars overall, since its inception. Either Amtrak isn't really all that inept, or the airline industry situation is severe enough to justify open rebellion against government by the three stooges.
Granted, the USPS seems to have become a much better service since it was privatized. It also faced some fair free market competition, e.g. from UPS and Fedex, to help that process along. The rail system's competitors are the heavily susidized airlines, commercial buses (which are also a struggling, some would even say floundering industry) and the interstate trucking system, and these impact different areas (passengers and cargo are effectively very different matters, finacially, and Amtrak's performance in one area is best judged seperately fron the other).
Who is John Cabal?
OK, I don't mean to imply that the US gov't didn't develop the Internet, but I resent the notion that if the US hadn't, nobody else would've thought of it. I'm quite confident that one way or another, we'd still be using the Internet today, even if DARPA hadn't gotten the ball rolling. Someone else would have.
Yeah, we'd be on *some* network at some point, like Compuserve or Genie or something. The beauty of what happened with the internet was that it was not controlled by a single entity, otherwise we'd all be reading slashdot (or some Compuserve created likeness) through a Compuserve branded viewer. Furthermore, things like personal servers, static ip's, p2p, wouldn't be options. As it happened, Darpa created a huge development platform for all of us to experiment on. I doubt without Darpa it would have turned out quite like this.
Seriously. We're talking about people who can't even keep their happy snaps from Iraq secret.
Those are apples and oranges my friend. Keeping pictures secret that were sent out to private citizens over the internet is different than keeping a secret among government employees
The American government hasn't been able to keep a single secret longer than about 15 minutes.
How do you know? If they did have a well kept secret, it's well kept so you might not have found out. I'm not trying to be rude, just trying to point out that just because you know some things, doesn't mean you know everything
They's no aliens at Roswell, or you'd have already seen 500 pictures of them on CNN...
Why doesn't CNN march into Area 51 and refuse to leave then because the "public wants to know the truth". I have no doubts at it's highest levels, the US government has ways to control the media both subtle and not so subtly.
I'm an AirForce brat and had the pleasure of spending 3 years in Italy (Aviano). Absolutely beautiful country, great people, and unbeleivable food (I really can't say enough good things about the Italians).
We did experience taxation at it's finest, however. EVERYTHING was taxed.. if you had a radio in your car you paid a tax. If you had a certain type of TV you paid a tax. We where shielded from a lot of the taxes, but not all of them. It was pretty unbeleivable really.
The point is that the United States is actually a pretty reasonable place tax wise. At least it was compared to most of the countries we visited while we lived in Europe.
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It is easy to argue that the govnt employs common people, who cannot handle some info. The truth is, that the secret stuff gives the feds an advantage over spooks in other countries. If you can keep the fact that you have a fleet of F-117s on hand, you get the advantage of Saddam Hussein not buying the latest anti-stealth shoulder launched rockets from Serbia at $zillion a pop for a few more years. Simple. Military advantage. I can handle knowing that the USAF has rocket powered toilets just as well as the next guy, but may be in USAF's advantage not to let ANYONE know about it.
It's logical that if they publish this in the USA, then Osama is going to read all bout it the same day. It's not that regular people like us can't know about it, it's that us not knowing about it is the only way to guarantee that Osama won't know either.
They have full right to do this in the name of security, and it is also their duty to judge what information may be released. Remember, if they release something which allows Osama to level New York tomorrow (i.e. "suitcase thermonuclear bomb for $100 HOWTO"), it's THEIR ass on the line.
And just to drive the argument home: Foreign spies would be out of work if stuff like that was public. What's the harm? Why do you think other countries spend so much money on intelligence, if this info isn't crucial to security?
Yes,
Stealth airplanes.
Drones.
Robots.
Scientists in white suits
Mean and gruff airport personnel with pistols
Must be some Air Force research base of some sort.
Besides, if they had real aliens, they would show them to the world and say: See, they're trying to kill us all, protect your country from Space Invaders, enlist Today!
"Piter, too, is dead."
Of course there are an unlimited number of things that are true that we don't know. But no one complains about the Zargnoids who continually steal electricity from my power lines and result in me being overcharged for electricity every month.
More plainly, there's such an abundance of things we don't know that a mere strongly-worded assertion about any one of them can set off the kooks, and the increasingly kook-friendly media. (Mumble mumble Fox mumble.)
I don't believe government employees are not any more fanatical about keeping secrets than ordinary employees, though on some levels they are much more indoctrinated. But still, the thing about Area 51 rumors that have always bugged me is the number of people who would have to be "in" on it, and not talk. And in these days of near-instant communication, it gets a lot harder to prevent leaks.
But the thing that bugs me about Area 51 the most is that the culture of secrecy that some sectors of the government enjoy makes possible a rich environment for spurious stories to flourish. Much worse, to me, than the stories is the secrecy itself, especially since it's alegedly *our* government that's so tightlipped about so much, and Bush and company have made it a lot worse.
So I almost want to wish the conspiracy mongers well on their propaganda efforts -- anything that causes the public to distrust that air of secrecy, and the actions of spooky secret people supposedly in their interest, for there is no force on Earth so horrifying as that of people willing to do wrong things for what they think are right reasons, things like that that work towards increasing that distrust are somewhat positive in my book.
More plainly, there's such an abundance of things we don't know that a mere strongly-worded assertion about any one of them can set off the kooks, and the increasingly kook-friendly media. (Mumble mumble Fox mumble.)
I don't think fox is any worse than any of the other channels when it comes to this. They are kook friendly because kook friendly = ratings. It's like the history channel, you wouldn't say that the history channel is Hitler friendly because they run so many WW2 shows. It's just that WW2 is what history channel viewers like to watch.
I don't believe government employees are not any more fanatical about keeping secrets than ordinary employees, though on some levels they are much more indoctrinated.
I would bet they are. Just for the simple fact that they want to keep their clearance never mind other motavating factors. Loyalty to their country comes to mind.
But still, the thing about Area 51 rumors that have always bugged me is the number of people who would have to be "in" on it, and not talk. And in these days of near-instant communication, it gets a lot harder to prevent leaks.
I doubt there are little green men running around in there. It would be hard to keep something like that quiet. It's probably an advanced air force research facility like other people have suggested. Keeping that quiet isn't too hard, you just tell your employees it's for national security. I think people could shut up about the Aurora and it's no big deal. If (Darth Vader, ET, Alf, whichever Alien) were in there, someone would leak it.
But the thing that bugs me about Area 51 the most is that the culture of secrecy that some sectors of the government enjoy makes possible a rich environment for spurious stories to flourish.
I think the government officials have come to the point where the enjoy doing this to the kooks. Look at the whole planet X thing. There was some kind of internet cult that spammed the newsgroup sci.astronomy for a long time that "Planet X/Nibiru" was returning on May 15 2003 to (bring peace, kill everyone, balance my checkbook, whatever else). They contended that there was one world government that was conspiring not to tell the people they were all going to die. Someone in the military obviously caught wind of the kooks, and to drive them batty named one of their operations in Iraq "Operation Planet X" and launched it on may 15 2003. I think the government likes playing with these people, it's got to be fun to mess with their heads.
Much worse, to me, than the stories is the secrecy itself, especially since it's alegedly *our* government that's so tightlipped about so much, and Bush and company have made it a lot worse.
That is just kookery in my opinion. I doubt there is that many secrets going around, except in the military where there is a need for them. I really don't think George Bush is holding satanic rituals underground with his nazi armys and the illuminati planning to take over the world and enslave humanity when ET lands. I guess I could be wrong.
So I almost want to wish the conspiracy mongers well on their propaganda efforts -- anything that causes the public to distrust that air of secrecy, and the actions of spooky secret people supposedly in their interest, for there is no force on Earth so horrifying as that of people willing to do wrong things for what they think are right reasons,
Do you really think the US government is doing "the wrong things". What exactly do you think they are doing in secret that is so bad for the general population of the US?
things like that that work towards increasing that distrust are somewhat positive in my book.
Do you think there are some things you should trust a government to keep secret (ie, new weapons of mass destruction) so they don't fall into the wrong hands?
Uh, some of those pictures were leaked by government employees. When you speak of the government keeping secrets, remember that The Government is just made out of ordinary, individual people.
:D
Sorry my brush was a bit broad when I made that statement. The pictures were leaked by soldiers from everything I've read who do fall under "government employees" I suppose. But by government employees what I really ment were scientists and maybe MP's that would be at a place like Area 51. Not to mention, the pictures had to do with rape and abuse. The Soldier who leaked the pictures probably wanted to make sure the abuse stopped. A government employee doesn't have that kind of motivation to leak things about Area 51 unless people are dying/being abused there or there is a threat to the public. Like I mentioned in the parent post, if ET was there I'm sure people would leak it. If it's an air force research lab, I'm sure people would for the most part be quiet. Despite what we might think from reading and posing on Slashdot, people don't talk without reason.
RE: Taxation in Sweden
:)
Not been in Sweden for the last 7 years, so I am a little out of date on the taxation system, but basically you pay an amalgamate income tax averaging (depending on what area in the country you live in) around 30-32% on your base income. As over 80% of the working population are members of a labour union, they pay 1-1.5% extra towards that (hey, you want a decent amount of cash per month for a while if made redundant, no?).
If you have an extra job to make some extra cash, you fall into the marginal tax bracket where you pay 40-60% tax. The more you earn, the higher the tax rate (yes, we believe that if you are pulling in over a million a year, you can afford to pay a wad in tax).
VAT is 25%, but some things are exempt. Spot tax on fuel, tobacco and alcohol push prices up on those things. A liter of petrol is around US$ 1.25-1.30 or so. A bottle (0.7l) of Absolut Vodka would cost you around US$ 30 or so.
Saying this, we pay a very small fee when we go see a doctor (to prevent abuse of the system by people that just feel lonely) and health care is essentially free, no need for expensive medical insurance as that is what we pay tax for.
The thing people in "government should not tax us at all" countries seem to miss is that the population in Sweden, although we probably complain about taxes as much as anyone else does, actually want this social security network that the taxes pay for. When I go to the dentist, I know I will be able to afford it, I will not need to sell my car or remortgage the house to pay the dentists bill. I rate that as a good thing.
If I for some reason, lose my job and something exceptional happens that means I default on my mortgage or something, social security will make sure I at least have a roof over my head and I can eat until I get back on my feet and can get a job.
Totally off topic, but hey.
Swedish, but resident in the UK since 1996.