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The Good and Bad of Data Collection

Nephilium writes "Reason magazine has dedicated their latest issue to a discussion of privacy and data collection. They sent subscribers a customized cover of the magazine [as previously covered on Slashdot]. Some good points as to the benefits and drawbacks of who is sharing your information." The sample targeted advertisements are for non-profit organizations, but it may not be long until someone figures out how much companies will pay to utilize this sort of targeting.

45 of 146 comments (clear)

  1. Good by ibpooks · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The sample targeted advertisements are for non-profit organizations, but it may not be long until someone figures out how much companies will pay to utilize this sort of targeting.

    I'd much rather have ads sent to me about things that I might actually want or be interested in. For example, sending feminine hygine ads to me is a waste of their time and mine.

  2. Targeted Content by ePhil_One · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I'm more concerned about when publications will start publishing customized content, So that Rush Limbaugh thinks MagA is a conservative read, and Ralph Nader thinks its a left wing read.

    Double your readership ;)

    --
    You are in a maze of twisted little posts, all alike.
    1. Re:Targeted Content by PsychoFurryEwok · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's actually a really interesting concept. With us being able to use computers to print out something different on each page, they could just set it up to run through their list of subscribers...use feedback to customize the magazine for them. Brings up another issue though...now you're forcing everyone to see something as only one sided. :)

    2. Re:Targeted Content by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think at the end of the day Rush and Ralph would get together and swap copies if that ever started happening.

      If you're in the business of being a political pundit, you want to read everything you can so you can talk about it. You need to see the opinions you disagree with too so you can start thinking of the ways to call those people wrong.

    3. Re:Targeted Content by eln · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, maybe if you're in the business of being a fair political pundit. The vast majority (certainly the loudest) pundits these days make their living by selling their own point of view, and loudly denouncing the other side without ever understanding or even knowing about their arguments. It's a lot easier to claim the other side is always wrong because theyre a bunch of "stinking liberals" or "fat cat conservatives" rather than actually trying to come up with arguments against what the other side is actually saying.

      Political discourse these days isn't about debate, it's about volume, both in terms of quantity and decibel level.

    4. Re:Targeted Content by deputydink · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Speaking of magazines, about 10 years ago i used to work for a magazine wholesaler. Investments decided to sell the circulation information, and I was put in charge of the data-mining.


      Apparently, if you know what kind of magazines are being sold in an area, you can assemble an accurate picture of the area's demographic, and use it to gauge market opportunites and stock management. For instance, high volumes of mens magazines begin sold in an area suggests it may be a good idea to open a Sporting goods store, conversely, a Department Store could infer that a lot of bridal and family magazines mean its time to stock baby strollers and family basics. The list went on and on, and even included municipal politians.


      Due to constaints imposed by Canadian Privacy laws (i think), were not able to actually sell the quantity of any particular title, instead, we had to aggregate the titles into "subject categories" like Young Mens, Young Womens, Sport, Hobby, etc etc.


      The markting agency that bought the information spent waaaaaaay more than i ever could have expected that information to be worth, and my technical liason was very bright, and had a very large (relatively) IT/Engineering group, so i figure they must have had a pretty slick set up. And, i just checked, they are still in business.


      Interesting use of targeted content, i hadn't though of that project in years till reading this thread.

    5. Re:Targeted Content by feepness · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This already happens to a large extent. People can self-select their own outlet from among the multide of news sources, and therefore do not EVER get the full story... just the one they like.

      Thus the further polarization of American politics.

    6. Re:Targeted Content by blingbing · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Or MagA can stay with Rush, but spin off a MagB for Ralph Nader. Trageted content is nothing new, it's already done in Cable and radio. Thank Fox News and CNN, Rush Limbaugh and Al Franken. They have their targeted audience, and they profit plenty if they can keep their audience, there is no need to be "fair and balanced".

      Even within the same TV channel, targeted programming is a well-established practice. NBC has "Friends" for the coveted 18-35 age group, "Frasier" for 35 and above, "Queer eyes" for gays.

      because of internet and cable, no single player can dominate the news. Target content is already happening, and it will only grow bigger.

    7. Re:Targeted Content by toganet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes, except in the case where you already publish noth magazines (like my employer). Then it is a matter of developing some third magazine 'Brand', and marketing it as a targeted "best of our content" publiscation.

  3. Regaining Privacy in the US by pholower · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I agree, there is almost no privacy in the US for this sort of thing. But if you have already given your information to be hoarded in databases, and cross linked with other databases, then there is little one can do to regain their privacy.

    Wired Magazine a year or so ago, I remember, had a page on how to regain privacy. Some of those tips included:
    - Gaining access to a fake SSN
    - Not using a Cell phone
    - Never using a credit card
    - Do not have a mortgage

    Something most Americans are incapable of doing without moving to the woods and living off the land.

    --
    -- johntracy.com, because everybody else is wrong.
    1. Re:Regaining Privacy in the US by logicnazi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What wrong with the rich getting richer? I'm most certainly not one of the rich (poor grad student) but I'm in favor of everyone getting a higher standard of living including the rich.

      It is only a problem if the rich get richer at the expense of the poor. In the case of credit we are looking at a mechanism that lets the rich get richer while bettering all of society (financing lets people start stores and industry which improves everyone's lot)

      --

      If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

    2. Re:Regaining Privacy in the US by kfg · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Something most Americans are incapable of doing without moving to the woods and living off the land.

      You say that like it's a bad thing. :)

      You better make it public land though. If you expect to have enough land of your own to live off of (you can do it with five acres, but you really want ten, half of it mature forest, half meadow) you'll likely need a mortgage. You'll certainly need to register a deed (which is public information).

      But you can actually "live off the land" fairly well in cities too. Cities are rich. Cities simply dispose of necessities and offer opportunities for making money, and spending it, under the radar, as well as a fair amount of barter.

      The trick to living anonymously in cities is finding a legal place to "camp." This might well be mom's basement (or a friend's basement) or attic, or just the right sort of "Significant Other." Quasi-legal arrangements (like an old industrial loft with the permission of the owner, perhaps as "security." It isn't legal because it doesn't meet code requirements for a habitation, but the worst that can happen to you is being kicked out, not arrested or anything) are almost always possible if you are personable, useful and well dressed (there are a surprising number of very conventional people who take vicarious joy in lending support to counterculturalists. It's bums they don't like).

      Bear in mind though that the second you hook up your internet connection, cable TV, whatever, in your own name you've just blown the whole anonymous "thing."

      KFG

  4. How'bout NO ADS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Imagine that..... wanting to buy something, going to the store, and picking the damned thing out YOURSELF, instead of people pushing stuff at you 24/7 ..... now there's a concept..

    1. Re:How'bout NO ADS by Carnildo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Maybe if the ads coming at me are targeted, I'll see fewer of them. The current "shotgun" approach certainly does nothing to keep the total number of ads down.

      (on a side note, if advertisers got serious about targeted ads, people like you, who don't respond well to ads wouldn't get any)

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    2. Re:How'bout NO ADS by Rorschach1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And how much are you going to pay for a magazine or newspaper if it's not supported by advertisers?

      And looking at my latest Circuit Cellar, I see a full-page add for a PSoC device that looks pretty cool, and that I wouldn't have known about otherwise. And 'going to the store' to browse for this sort of thing is pretty much out of the question.

      Now, if I could replace every feminine hygene ad I see with one for an embedded device C compiler, PC-based oscilloscope, or something else that actually interests me, that'd be great.

    3. Re:How'bout NO ADS by NoMoreNicksLeft · · Score: 4, Informative

      Lamer. Real geeks read Nuts & Volts. ;-)

      I also must admit I've never once disliked the ads in those magazines, I could even truthfully say I buy them as much for the ads as anything else. But the truth is, no one gets rich in marketing letting people know about products they would already want. So this stuff about "if they only had more data, they'd target us" is bullshit. They'll still be trying to sell you a subscription to GQ, the latest fashion deoderant, and GM sports car.

    4. Re:How'bout NO ADS by janbjurstrom · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In a best-case scenario, that might happen.

      But isn't the problem that if/when targeted advertising - if 'Real Ultimate Precision Advertising' (RUPA) is possible - it would simply become the new "entry-level"? (I.e. nolonger a competitive advantage; not an edge but a requirement.)

      It immediately becomes the new status quo (as the "shotgun approach" is today), and every company looking to stand out - and they all want/have to - must now do RUPA plus X, and Y, and Z, and ...

      And marketing people know, as well as we do in all honesty, that everybody responds to advertising - in one form or another. Perhaps today not so much to regular 'ads' (as in TV commercials, or ads in a magazine), but if not that, then to product placements, or celebrity spokespersons, or sponsorships, or viral marketing, or astroturfing-word-of-mouth campaigns, or ...

      So my fear is, that we won't se less ads/marketing ploys, but more - only they will be targeted to our specific 'profiles'... Advertisers certainly have the will/need and budgets for it to happen.

      --
      668.5
    5. Re:How'bout NO ADS by lonesome+phreak · · Score: 3, Insightful

      And marketing people know, as well as we do in all honesty, that everybody responds to advertising - in one form or another.

      Yep, it's called "Brand building". Even if they will never buy your product, they at least now may find it familiar when they hear about it again. Or, in more evil terms, "mindshare".

      --
      Maybe we DID take the blue pill. You wouldn't remember anyway.
    6. Re:How'bout NO ADS by aggiefalcon01 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      We should be so lucky. I'm always hearing about some new way marketers have found to intrude, and am frequently appalled. Houston billboards covering the whole sky are bad enough (this cloud brought to you by Clear Channel and 107.5 theBuzz), but each new marketing technique is just another invasion to me. Telemarketers have ruined the usefulness of phone books, as everyone drops their land lines, or keeps them unlisted. Popups, motion video ads, and SPAM are doing the same to the 'net.

      And how about the marketers salivating about GPS cellphones, so that they can send text ads for businesses you merely come into the vicinity of.

      Similarly, the idea that making the ads more targeted will cause them to diminish in number is mistaken. Okay, the thing is more targeted ... yet the magazine's publisher, say, is going to NOT look forward to even more profits by being able to sell the same amount of ads at a higher price?

      --
      Global warming is neither science, nor politics. It is a religion.
    7. Re:How'bout NO ADS by andy+landy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Once upon a time, I was looking for somewhere to buy some new PC hardware (I live in the UK). I went out and bought a copy of Micro Mart. A publication that is probably >80% adverts, all for online computer retailers. I bought it for the ads and discovered many retailers and got some components at a really good price -- I paid ~UK1.00 for some adverts! So, where does this fit into the grand scheme of things?

      --
      perl -e 'print "Just another Perl newbie\n";'
  5. Cold and unbiased... by LostCluster · · Score: 5, Interesting

    One thing the whole FICO-based credit system has working in its favor is that it is very truely blind. The decision maker doesn't get to look at you physically at all, it's not even a person anymore. Simply put, if the prediction formula gives you enough points you're accepted, and if it doesn't you're declined. Race, age, gender, religion, sexuality... who cares.

    Of course, the system isn't perfect, it's subject to GIGO just like any other computer system. However, compared to human decision making, it's a whole lot of a more fair process on the whole.

  6. Re:CUSTOM SPAM by JohnnyComeLately · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Dont you mean "Custom High Volume Mail Distribution". Like a custom trashhauler, but in reverse.

    Yeah, I know...boo hisss....but I couldn't help myself.

  7. Re:Cool! by ibpooks · · Score: 4, Informative
  8. Target for File 86 by beatleadam · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They sent subscribers a customized cover of the magazine...The sample targeted advertisements are for non-profit organizations...

    What bothers me the most about this is not the notion of loss of privacy, it is loss of *Choice*. When I worked as the only IT Staff at a non-profit (coincedance noted) I wanted all the information I could get, in whatever format to try to make the best and (unfortunately) least-expensive solutions.

    This is just the biggest "brand" or brand name, being shoved down our throats.

    --
    I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours. -- Hunter S. Thompson
  9. Too bad for them by secondsun · · Score: 4, Funny

    While the magazine claimed to have my location it actually was a picture of my uncle's house half a mile down the road. Guess my privacy is safe for a while longer ;).

    --
    There is nothing wrong with being gay. It's getting caught where the trouble lies.
  10. Fie by Grrr · · Score: 4, Insightful


    It's easy to complain about a subjective loss of privacy. It's more difficult to appreciate how information swapping accelerates economic activity. Like many other aspects of modern society, benefits are dispersed, amounting to a penny saved here or a dollar discounted there. But those sums add up quickly.

    There's almost the tone, here, that privacy and info-swapping are at odds with each other. What a shame.

    <grrr>

  11. Re:Cool! by PsychoFurryEwok · · Score: 2, Funny

    Wow. My privacy has officially been annihilated.

  12. It'd be interesting to see... by Arivia · · Score: 2, Funny

    Al Franken's next book after that started...
    "Lying Liars and the Lies they targeted at Me", or something like that.

    --
    The role of the writer is not to say what we can all say, but what we are unable to say. -Anais Nin
  13. ashcroft's eyeball by morcheeba · · Score: 4, Informative

    Reason's cover didn't quite get ashcroft's house correctly. It should be this pic (or big 1800x1500 version). Not as scary when they know your work location and not your house.

    (from this cryptome eyeball - it is a lot of data since it covers 4 places, please don't slashdot)

  14. Anonymous Credit Cards by Lord+Grey · · Score: 5, Interesting
    There are several aspects to the privacy issue relating to the purchase of products and services in America. As the article goes to great lengths to point out, information sharing is not necessarily a Bad Thing, particular if it leads to financial and time efficiencies.

    Because information sharing is pervasive (and getting more so as time goes by) we, as consumers, are caught in a bind: If we demand more privacy, the cost will go up; if we don't demand that privacy, abuse of the system will cause all sorts of problems, too many to list here. Of course, this is a problem only for people who care.

    Personally, I find myself caring about privacy in some cases and not in others. It's a trade off decision. What I want is the ability to protect my privacy when I do care, at the instant of the transaction with the merchant, even if I've dealt with that particular merchant in the past. In face-to-face transactions of low monetary value, I can use cash. But what about online transactions, or the purchase of more expensive items?

    What I'd like to have is an anonymous credit card. One that's tied to a "numbered account" somewhere, managed by an institution that cares only about its numbered accounts. Money is transferred into an account, and the institution pays the credit card bills for that account. Period. Given our cryptographic skills now, someone should be able to provide blind transfers that do the job nicely.

    Of course, this type of system could be abused. But it's a different kind of abuse, and my privacy is safe.

    --
    // Beyond Here Lie Dragons
    1. Re:Anonymous Credit Cards by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Informative

      There is such a system right now. They're called prepaid credit cards. They're marketed in several different ways. Some convenience stores sell them right next to the prepaid cell phone cards targetting them at the people who can't get real credit cards because they've ruined their own credit history already. They're also seen at Simon-owned malls around the nation as what they're selling instead of selling traditional mall gift certificates now. Parents are pitched such cards as a way to establish a hard-limit on their children's spending. The prepaid cards are backed by either the Visa or MasterCard networks to create near-universal acceptance by merchants who won't even care that they're not traditional credit cards.

      The catch? The transaction fees on these things are horrendous. Anybody who has the credit history to qualify and the personal resolve to not charge things they can't pay off is better off getting a real credit card... those are free to have, free to use, and also contribute good notes to your credit history for your future credit requests.

      If you want to avoid giving your name for tin foil hat purposes, at least you have the option to get a nameless credit card. However, you're going to pay extra for that privledge.

  15. two words: PO Box by kaan · · Score: 4, Interesting

    When they pull up the address of my PO Box, I'll just shrug it off. Sure, my mailing address information is shared left and right (and without my consent), but at least I have a layer of abstraction between my physical residence and the mailing address people associate with me, so this scare tactic stuff ("they know where you are!") won't matter. It will have to be changed to, "they know where your postal mail is delivered!".

    I first got a PO Box address in 2002, and the only thing I regret is that I didn't get one sooner. The UPS Store (formerly Mailboxes, Etc.) rents PO boxes out, too, and offer lots of other perks over the straight US Postal variety. For instance, you can call the store and ask them if you got any mail today, they'll check it and let you know, saving you the trip.

  16. Simple way around all this by MajorDick · · Score: 4, Insightful

    PAY FRIGGN CASH, GREEN, Dead Presidents,

    Im serious, between paying cash where possible, that includes nearly EVERY local purchase, trade you key tags for grocery stores with your friends (as long as they arent valid for cashing checks)

    No tinfoil here I just cant stand direct marketing, why in the hell should I give Radio Shack my phone number, I actually had a clerk say they HAD to ge one, 555-1212 or 867-5309 (867 is a local extension here) is my answer most of the time they dont even blink although some chuckle

    Lay as low as possible, p[ay cash where possible and lie like hell when anyone asks any questions that could be used in targeted marketing.

    Dont forget they found one of the 911 conspirators by his grocery store key thingy

    1. Re:Simple way around all this by jpetts · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Dont forget they found one of the 911 conspirators by his grocery store key thingy

      I would be very careful about advocating ways to circumvent investigative techniques that are know to have led to the detention of terrorists or terrorist supporters. An unkind executive, legislative or judicial environment could easily make your life very unpleasant for this type of statement, and in Soviet Russia and/or Nazi Germany this sort of behaviour could easily lead to (and in Stalin's Russia, almost certainly WOULD have led to) execution. I know that the statement itself is devoid of malice, but not everybody would interpret it in the same way...

      --
      Call me old fashioned, but I like a dump to be as memorable as it is devastating - Bender
  17. Re:where can I get one? by chamblah · · Score: 3, Informative
    Terra Server is the best place that I know of.

    I haven't looked for a home address there in a few years though so I'm not sure how up-to-date they are with the photos on file.

  18. It's not just the insurers who know ... by cool_st_elizabeth · · Score: 3, Informative

    ... your medical history, but the people who transcribe your doctor's dictation ... these people may be doing the transcription in countries where the U.S. privacy laws are unenforceable. Consider the following scenario as detailed by David Lazarus in the San Francisco Chronicle on April 2, 2004: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/ch ronicle/archive/2004/04/02/MNGI75VIEB1.DTL

  19. I'd rather have my privacy, thanks by Clod9 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    This whole article just looks at the privacy debate from the point of view of commercial interests. Of course they think information-sharing is a good thing, it cuts costs. Although the article concludes that this is great for consumers because it lowers prices...I don't believe it. I think it raises profits. What's more, I think it raises profits for large corporations while doing little to benefit locally-owned businesses.

    We have very little privacy any more, and it's time to take a stand on what's left.

    The most telling section was the description of how MBNA has benefited from information-sharing. How, if privacy advocates had their way, MBNA's profit model would be threatened. Well, you know what? I HATE MBNA! I detest them. They send me credit card applications continually, no matter what I do. I regularly return their postage-paid reply envelopes stuffed with whatever other trash comes in that day's mail, and if everyone else would do the same...maybe THAT would stop them. After all, who among us needs more credit? Are we not awash in it already?

  20. Soul on Ice by Saeed+al-Sahaf · · Score: 2, Funny

    I for one am quite happy to receive penis enlargement emails. Currently, I am simply HUGE, but I hope to become GARGANTUAN. In fact, I've been looking into a Soul on Ice codpiece (Eldridge Cleaver's fashion line, "a Cleaver sleeve," he called it.) Speaking of data collection, there's an article in the NYT says that a survey of federal agencies has found more than 120 programs that collect and analyze large amounts of personal data on individuals to predict their behavior (not including classified projects.)

    --
    "Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
    1. Re:Soul on Ice by nwbvt · · Score: 2, Funny
      See if I got truely personalized ads, I wouldn't get anything about penis enlargement.

      And if any of you moderators even think about moding that "Funny"...

      --
      Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
  21. Data collection on your representatives. by Colin+Smith · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You can minimise your data trail. Use cash. Don't subscribe to "loyalty" cards and marketing competitions. Don't use real/permanent email addresses.

    However data collection on individuals is not necessarily a bad thing, especially if they are in a position of power.

    e.g.
    http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/

    --
    Deleted
  22. Re:where can I get one? by sTalking_Goat · · Score: 2, Informative

    globexplorer.com seems to have better looking shots. Wow my roof needs work.

    --

    My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...

  23. Privacy vs Databasing by Daegred · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I really like the idea of databasing all this analog data, so we can make more informed decisions. However, I don't think that people should be able to collect data on you without your permission, let alone knowledge and then claim ownership of your personal information. And especially not corporations, who can use it however they wish, for whatever is going to make them a profit, whether you like it or not.

    If there was some place I could opt-in for certain deals on groceries or whatever, I would sign up. What I don't like is spying on people to try to find this stuff out "to benefit you, the consumer". I'm even for the centralization of most of this information, but within a regulated federal agency where there's accountability and transparency. I'm not too trusting of government, but I think if there were records which you had control over say.. your employment information.. You just allow Company X's HR department permission to read 5 years of your employment history. As long as I had control as to who outside the agency had access to it, I wouldn't have to fill out 10 different applications like I am now.

    I think the idea is good, just the methods and the control need drastic change to make it work.

  24. UK spam laws by BillsPetMonkey · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Never went far enough for a good reason (they basically outlawed electronic spam to private addresses but not to businesses). The reason for this is that the UK government makes money from the electoral register information by selling it to direct marketing companies for postal spam(e.g. MBNA credit card offers - yay!). It would be more than a little hypocritical to criminalize a practice the government regularly makes money from .... aneeway ...

    It also sells the information to amongst others Equifax. According to recent studies over those opposed to the way information is collected, over 1/3 of all Equifax records are inaccurate enough to adversely influence a credit decision.

    I recently found out that for the past six years, even though I pay over $200 per month in local tax, Equifax didn't have that information on file. This meant that I was listed as having effectively avoided paying council tax for that period. I started to examine who was to take responsibility for this "oversight".

    Well, the Data Protection Act is very clear on this - no-one takes responsibility for the accuracy of the data. Not Equifax, not the local council, not even the people providing the information (or failing to provide the information). No-one. It is a veritable black hole of responsibility. A key point of the "Data Protection Act 1998" is that it is not there to protect the data subject, but to protect the data controller (yep, Equifax) from recourse by the data subject.

    Who is the "data subject"? Well, that's YOU of course.

    Agencies like Equifax are answerable to no-one and they have a lot of not quite so accurate information on you which they use to make influential decisions on how you live. They are the single best candidate (and best latter-day substitute) for the incompetent and overpaid bureacrat.

    --
    "It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
  25. Re:Cool! by spandrel · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually, we used the terraserver images originally, but in the course of pre-publicity AirPhoto USA contacted us and offered to let us use their aerial photos (where available) in conjunction with the public domain USGS files.

    In terms of geocoding, we didn't try to go in and find a home address. That's why people with subscriptions pointing to PO boxes got a photo of the post office or city center. Even when there was an home address, sometimes the geocoding (pulling lat/long info based on street address) was a bit off due to variations in the way that addresses are determined/recorded.

    In any case, if people have technical questions, feel free to post them and I'll do my best to answer (I led the implementation of this project).

  26. Satellite images by darenw · · Score: 2, Informative

    http://daac.gsfc.nasa.gov/

    Gobs and gobs of satellite data are available here - i worked at a small company that made heavy use of this. Takes some effort to figure out all the gobbledygoop, but the effort is all it costs to get data.