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Hybrid Fleet Vehicles
howman writes "This article in the Toronto Star tells of a Canadian company called Azure Dynamics Corp. which has a novel approach to cutting fuel costs and harmful emissions in fleet vehicles. The novelty is not so much in their technology but in the fact that they are hitting the fleet vehicle users market. While Azure doesn't manufacture any of the components, it 'works with the companies that make all the parts for Canada Post's trucks or Purolator's vans - the engines, the chassis, and so on - to convert those vehicles into HEVs.' With an existing and potential client list that includes Purolator, Canada Post, the United States Postal Service and Renault and London Taxi International, it may not be long before you see one of their branded vehicles on a street near you."
only when partenan cells are available will any kind of EV be viable. http://www.europositron.com
Here in Rhode Island, USA, we have several propane filling stations, however they're all clearly marked "State Vehicles Only". So while its nice to see the State Troopers and trolley buses cruising around on propane, there needs to be more filling stations, and they need to be available to the general public.
These sorts of alternative energy options always require a certain critical mass, or number of cars, or number of users, before they're economically viable. (No comments from the anti-gasoline tinfoil hat crowd, please)
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
This is probably one of the best business idea I have read in a while. They stay away from actually producing the products that will make up the car, but they build the packages to transform the car into a HEV. I think that's just brilliant!
Hmmm.
Of course the Stop-Start kind of driving that these vehicles will be doing is perfect for hybrids.
'Don't worry' said the trees when they saw the axe coming, 'The handle is one of us.'
What's more, Azure makes plain that its customers must put their money where their mouth is. Interested parties have to commit up front that they'll place an order before Azure builds a prototype; if Azure achieves what it promises in emission reductions and fuel-cost savings, the customer has to pay for and receive the order.
"There are lots of tire-kickers, but if we perform, they agree to buy," said Deacon.
While their potential/interested clients are big ones it seems like a lot to ask in order to get a fleet out there for you.
Analysts believe Azure will make it. MacMurray is forecasting the company to lift itself out of the red by 2007 -- mainly because demand for hybrid vehicles that rely less on gasoline and don't pollute as much will continue to be strong.
We'll see. I wish them the best of luck but I doubt that they will be able to create what they say they can every time and with such a "small" possible base of customers.
Fleet vehicles rack up more mileage, so they get a better return on investment with hybrids. Plus they're in a better position to absorb the increased up front costs than consumers. I've seen a lot more switchover to alternative fuel technologies and the like with fleet vehicles than the general public. Hopefully this will provide the needed incentive to get these technologies into commercially viable stages of development.
There are so many better alternatives now than there were then. This is one of the best I have seen, so maybe it will actually catch on and have enough longevity as an idea to create a cultural change.
http://www.toyota.com/prius/
Is the emissions from fleet vehicles a significant part of the total? Good, of course, to reduce everything you can, but I doubt that, even if all fleet vehicles had zero emissions, the overall pollution levels would be much reduced.
This has been said before, so I will keep it short. People see these cars running on electricity with 'no emissions', and assume the car causes little or no pollution. Unfortunately, the electricity that you charge up your car's battery probably comes from fossil fuel combustion. You just might not know it, since the power generation station that burns it is far from urban centers.
On top of this, energy companies try to mislead their customers into thinking the energy is clean. I live in Ontario. I buy my electricity from 'HydroOttawa'. A lot of people think that it is hydro-electricity they are buying, when really, it is more like 15% hydro. 85% or the power really comes from burning fuels. (Don't tell anyone though; this horrible 'environmentalism' trend is hurting profits at great companies like Enron.
Gooooo Canada....hmm morality question here, how do I root for Canada and still call myself an American?
I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
Fleet vehicles.. if used in town for stop-start-stop then yes this would be a great idea.... but fleet vehicles that are used for open highway?
your greatest increase in economy is by adding a double overdrive gearbox to it. They sell them as aftermarket add-on's for Motorhomes and they can increase a 33 foot motorhome's gas mileage by 20%.
The biggest problem with emissions and fuel economy though is NOT the vehicles but the drivers. if the drivers were careful with their driving economy will go up, but it's more cost effective to push your employees harder and force them to drive inefficently and even break the law.
as for in-town deliveries... I dont understand why a pure-electric vehicle would not be the best choice. they spend more time off then running.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
hahaha! Oh man, that caught me so offguard. Thanks for my Friday morning burst of laughter. (bye bye karma)
Trolling is a art,
Here in the UK electric vehicles have long been a feature of the townscape - Doorstep milk deliveries were always carried out by the huge (10,000+ at peak IIRC) fleet of 'milk floats' operated by the major dairies (this service is now in decline, killed by supermarkets). EVs just makes so much sense for such start/stop urban use, and for early in the morning - they're near-silent.
Fortunately, the advantages are recognised - many local councils are experimenting with newer EVs and hybrids for the obvious reasons in town centres. Here in Bristol there is a fair percentage of council-operated natural-gas powered vans, and experimental conversions of diesel city buses.
http://www.hondacars.com/models/model_overview.asp ?ModelName=Civic%20GX
I wouldn't mind having one myself. You can get this little appliance called a phill ( http://www.fuelmaker.com/phill/) that will recharge the car's tank at home. It's slow, but convenient - plug it in at home overnight. Or you can charge it fast at a commercial station (there's one five minutes from home, for me). This would be a pretty good commuter car.
funny munging
There's a variety of dual fuel carbs out there for normal vehicles. Using either gasoline, or gas and/or propane or natural gas. I looked into it before for my van with a chevy 350, normal carb. At the time, several years ago now, the conversion was around 300$ I think.
/me = remembers OPEC boycott and sudden "no gas" very clearly
Here's a Google link for dual fuel, propane
As for finding propane for a fill up, it's not that hard, most yellow pages will direct you to your local outlet for bulk filling. Not near as many as for a normal gas station, but every community in the US probably has some place you get get propane. I've had to find the places a lot, my van and my RV both have propane tanks (just for the camping accessories right now), and I've never had a hard time finding propane. And for that matter, it might not be that hard to have a big bulk tank put in in your back yard, have the truck top it off occassionally, and do your own "fill up" right at home with the appropriate extra gear installed. A nice way to buy when it's cheap and have a good reserve handy.
Vehicle: A substance in which medicine is taken. (Websters)
I read an article in Discover or Scientifc American (can't remember which!) recently detailing the shift to alternative fuels. Not only is it a challenge to develop applicable technologies that are economical for end users, an even greater challenge will be to develop the infrastructure necessary to support these vehicles. We take for granted that one can stop at a gas station and fill up. If one we're driving a propane-powered vehicle, one would require an appropriate filling station. The answer to this appears to lie in getting large companies to 'buy in' (sorry for the manager speak, lots of meetings this week!) to using alternative fuels and retrofitting their stations for those fuels. When they have taken hold, and enough demand exists, consumer stations can begin to be retrofitted with the necessary equipment to ease consumers into using cars that run on newer fuels.
It's kinda like how you can still buy VHS!
High Emission Vehicle?
:P
My '75 F250 Supercab qualifies for this!
American auto companies are outfitting their fleet customers with alternative fuel vehicles. The government even provides incentives for meeting a certain percentage of alternative fuel vehicles in a fleet. GM's page on the subject has more information, as does Ford's alternative fuel fleet page and Chrysler's.
Why can't I moderate something "Wrong" or at least "Grossly Misinformed"?
Now where are they? The RAV4 was only available to fleet buyers. Ford has stopped production of the electric Ranger, GM stopped leasing the EV1 and crushed the lot.
Two questions:
1. What happened? 2. I still want an electric car. Any suggestions?
I think Azure Dynamics ought to seriously look at working with the Toyota Motor Company to develop hybrid-drivetrain technologies for the future.
:-)
It's a good mix, too--Azure has the technology Toyota may not have, and Toyota has probably more experience with hybrid drivetrain vehicles than anyone else in the world, thanks to the successful sales of the Toyota Prius.
I for one would love to see the United States Postal Service eventually phase out its current fleet of small mail-carrying vehicles with ones that use a hybrid drivetrain--we're talking sales that could run into the tens of thousands!
- batteries are highly inefficient
- batteries are heavy and waste power when they are moved about with the vehicle
- batteries are made of heavy-metals and other substances that are very polluting to extract and refine.
I would really like to see a total lifecycle environmental impact of convetional vs hybrid cars.250-400 mile ranges are possible using existing battery technology. You can buy vehicles now which will do that at motorway speeds. Pretty much in line with current petrol vehicles.
That said, the batteries are not your standard lead/acid ones and are still very expensive, but that's purely down to the manufacturing capacity.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Sure it comes from the same place now, but as the green supplier is committed to renewable energy, that's where *they* will be investing the money you give them.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
This seems a bit strange. One has to wonder why the decision to switch isn't up to the driver. I'm sure it's not an issue of convenience, since pressing a button is hardly a chore. Would it be for regulatory reasons? Perhaps the thought is that the drivers will want to stay on fuel power because it gives them more oomph, but that this system will force the switchover to satisfy whatever regulatory requirements are put in place. If this is true, it would seem to be a mostly unstated negative point about the technology. Creating unhappy drivers isn't the greatest way of going about pushing a brave new technology.
Especially as lithium based batteries weren't available at the time. New battery technologies have more than doubled the power available since these vehicles were introduced.
I believe that they've basically been "gotten to" by the oil companies who want you to continue filling up at their gas stations. Whether it's propane, lpg, hydrogen, ethanol or methanol they don't care as long as your money is going their way.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
Looks like these guys are focusing on turning diesels into diesel-electric. Delivery vehicles often run on diesel and the London Taxis use it as well. Not really surprising that a company has been trying out that technology, since people have been using it in trains since the 1930s or so (of course, most diesel-electric trains don't incorporate batteries to store extra energy, as far as I know).
;-)
Well, the diesel-electric train is the series hybrid type, where the engine isn't directly connected to the wheels. I imagine this company had to do a fair amount of work on the parallel hybrid type where both the engine and electric motor connect to the wheels. My understanding is that, theoretically, series hybrids are more efficient. If true, it confuses me why most hybrids we're seeing these days use the parallel style (or a variation on it) instead. I guess I've heard that, with the Prius for example, the electric motor balances out the power curve of the engine. Electric motors have extremely high torque at low RPMs, but apparently become less efficient at higher RPMs where gasoline engines are better. Of course, diesel engines have a different power curve than gasoline engines, with more torque and horsepower appearing at low RPM (probably one reason why semis have like 15 gears
Anyway, GM has their Electro-Motive Division (EMD) that has been producing diesel-electric trains for decades. I'm curious why nobody there has (at least publicly) demonstrated some diesel-electric trucks/vans/etc.
What exchange would this company trade on?
Well GM is releasing Hybrid Silverados and Sierras this fall. They are already giving 50 for fleet vehicles to Miami-Dade.
http://www.allpar.com/model/intrepid-esx3.html
That is but one story on a car using a design you suggest. A few of us bring up the D-E arrangement at various times.
Unfortunately there are too many people who think trains/ships and get this whole concept out of scale.
* Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
... normal. 250-1000 is the common size for home owners that I have seen. Even 250 is plenty for a nice home sized stash of fuel.
And the other good thing about propane is it lasts, doesn't go stale.
I could see this happening on your side of the pond if California presses ahead with the ZEV zoning intent.
It's silly to tie up our highways with all these enormous trucks when rail can do the job so much more efficiently. Save the trucks for transport from the rail head to warehouses, stores, etc...
It seems so obvious...I suppose the infrastructure isn't there or would be very expensive to create...
Blar.
From this page:
In 1999, The U. S Postal Service contracted with Ford Motor Company for the purchase of 500 Electric Carrier Route Vehicles (ECRVs). The ECRVs were phased into service at 22 Post Office locations --- with 200 in California and two on the East Coast --- between February 2001 and October of 2002.
So yes, USPS may well be be a potential customer of Azure Dynamics. But Azure Dynamics who is somewhat late to that particular game. So far they are providing two test vehicles to the USPS. If Azure Dynamics is to do well, it'll have to be because their cars are damn good, rather than being the first ones on the block.
In fact, US government fleets have been participating in the FreedomCAR & Vehicle Technologies Program during both the Clinton and Bush administrations.
President Bush greatly increased this program's funding and gave it the (kinda bizarre) name "FreedomCAR." But of course this fits into neither the conservative nor the liberal simplistic mythologies of what the Bush administration is 'all about' (i.e. fight-for-freedom vs. exploit-oil), so it's not surprising that practically no one is aware of it. The media these days is about 90% devoted to telling moralistic tales intended to illustrate a point, rather than to convey facts.
In a modern plant, the cleaner coal is the cleanest and safest of the polluting energy sources. It is FAR better (pollution wise) to burn the clean coal to create electricity to run your car then it is too burn gasoline (especially using an engine that has NOT been optimized to minimize pollution) to run your car.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
A while back Environmental Defense and FedEx teamed up to start making hybrid FedEx trucks. It was a really great idea. DIdn't get as much press as it should have though. Press Release
Tim Smith - Ramblings from Nerd Land
Major manufacturers don't sell electric cars, but some smaler ones do. Check out http://rqriley.com or google for "dolphin vortex"
You could also attempt a DIY conversion of an existing car, but they are usually too heavy to be good electrics.
If you want something easier, try a Volkswagen TDI (Diesel). It still requires fuel and produces emissions, but is more efficient than gas. Plus, diesel fuel is renewable, as it can be made from almost anything, such as vegetable oil or chicken poop (yes, really).
What I would like to see developed is a "partial" hybrid vehicle, one that extracts power from engine braking, but instead of storing a large quantity of energy for low-speed propulsion, it just stores a moderate amount for powering accessory and parasitic loads like water pumps, air conditioning, power steering, fans, etc, which can all run off of small electric motors instead of being driven off the main engine pully full time. This also allows the engine to be slightly smaller and accessories can be packaged in more convenient places throughout the car rather than being forced into a plane at the front of the engine.
The potential mpg gain for this kind of hybrid is not as dramatic as in a full hybrid like a Toyota Prius, but the cost is a lot more practical as you don't need a large, heavy battery bank or a 40+ hp electric motor. You don't need to modify the powertrain of a standard vehicle at all, plus you get benefit of being able to run all the accessories when the engine is stopped.
My guess is that this would add well under a thousand dollars to the price of a car, as opposed to the $2000-3000 premium that you pay for current hybrids and I would expect a 10 to 15% improvement in mpg, which isn't dramatic, but it isn't anything to sneeze at either.
You are saying it's common practice to hold a truck for 5 minutes to get one more delivery on board? Well then you hold the truck delivering to the railway. I would assume some sort of intelligence would be involved in sceduling the 'trunk' trains so that you don't have to wait too long for the next run.
Blar.
I have had a hybrid (Honda Civic) for a little over a year. It's been reliable, and I've gotten good mileage out of it. Never the 48 MPG claimed, but I never give those marketing numbers much credit anyway. All in all, I am happy with the performance of the car as a hybrid, and would get another hybrid over another conventional civic in the future.
However, I think that there is a better option out there, that I would prefer to see come to fruition in the consumer market.
Biodiesel.
1) The mileage of the hybrid fluctuates as the weather fluctuates. Cold dramatically drops the performance. I get around 42mpg in spring and fall, I drop to 38-40 in high summer (the AC, I'm thinking), and drop to around 32-34 in winter. This is in a "standard" temperate area, no big extremes in either direction. Diesel has historically been more difficult to start in colder weather, but I've read that this has been changing. The mileage would still be high year-round with diesel.
2) In addition to weather, the particular nature of the trip affects the mileage and the charge remaining in the battery. At times this is a nuisance -- a quick jog to the store down the block can suck down half the battery.
3) Biodiesel can be produced from inter-regional plant product. No need to schlep un-replaceable crud from the other side of the planet. No need to ship local money to the other side of the planet. To be used to fund people that don't like us, and yet don't even know us. Much better to fund the people down the road that know us, but don't like us anyway.
The main thing keeping diesel cars from becoming commercial in the US is emmission standards. An article I read cited someone from Toyota saying that they anticipated being able to overcome these issues within 5 years.
If these things happen in this sort of timeframe, then I am one hybrid owner that will move over to a diesel car.
ONTARIO'S ELECTRICITY GENERATION 2001
a ts andmaps.htm
By source (percentage of total)
Nuclear 41.3 %
Coal 25.3 %
Hydro 24.3 %
Natural Gas 7.6 %
Other 0.9 %
Oil 0.6 %
Okay, so I was off by about 10%. What I said is still completely valid. It certainly isn't clean hydro-electricity like the province believes.
If you don't believe my numbers, check it out here:
http://www.oeb.gov.on.ca/html/en/abouttheoeb/st
Straight from the Ontario Energy Board, since you don't believe me. Your disbelief just goes to show how uninformed the public is, and how much they want to believe that their energy use is not that bad for the environment.
We make more power through coal than we do with 'hydro', yet still call the energy companies 'HydroOttawa' and 'OntarioHydro'. It makes me sad.
Please mod this up so people can see it. Thanks.
|quote|
Do not make outrageous claims with inaccurate numbers.
|quote|
I made a realistic claim with a slightly inaccurate number. Now you have the real numbers. Please tell a friend. Our electricity is not hydro, no matter what they tell you.
http://www.oeb.gov.on.ca/html/en/abouttheoeb/stats andmaps.htm
Oops! A space got put into the URL, I don't know how it happened. I Blame Microsoft. =)
In America, but tomorrow it might be nuclear, solar power, wind turbine, geothermal etc. Denmark for instance gets 10% of it's power from wind energy.
With a battery powered vehicle you can switch the supply to another generation platform by sticking a solar panel on the roof of your house and flicking a switch. Can't do that with Petrol, ethanol, methanol, hydrogen.
Deleted
250 to 400 mile range.... with a battery weighing in at 700kg and costing you USD 20,000 to 30,000 ALONE.
the only reason the batteries are available at reasonable cost is because the entire vehicle will be heavily subsidised: if you're after heavy duty NiMH batteries you're actually better off purchasing a subsidised vehicle and throwing the vehicle away.
nickel is an extremely rare material. aluminium makes up 8% of the earth's crust.
a partenan aluminium battery array of ONLY 60 KILOGRAMS claims to propel a vehicle a distance of 400 miles.
now THAT's viable.
Um, yes there are. You didn't mention which electric powertrain, there are several battery technologies.
The APC Tzero for instance. 0-60 in 4 seconds, 300 mile range on the motorway with LiON batteries, more than double that when Li-S arrive in a year or two. The batteries are expensive, but that's only for now, and they can be traded in and recycled, upgraded even.
I think you forgot to factor in the massive inefficiency of the petrol engine. The fact that an electric vehicle doesn't need 10k mile services, uses domestic power to recharge at a fraction of the cost of petrol.
Deleted
Why is it that in every freaking article on slashdot, people jump in to complain that it's not gonna cure cancer! (so to speak)
Oh no! we can do this already with this old tech! Why do we need this????
Oh no! This doesn't help! It just moves the problem and makes people think it's a solution!
Oh no! Everyone should just switch to MY solution because it's MUCH better for everyone! (Even though it requires a huge infrastructure change, isn't economical, and confuses 99% of the population in that general industry already)
GET OVER IT!
Ah, no. You won't get a 300 mile range with a NiMH battery. You need a Lithium based battery for that. The battery cost is purely down to the manufacturing capacity.
HTH.
Deleted
Sorry, I'm incorrect. Solectria have vehicles with 250 mile ranges using NiMH batteries and have a prototype car which will do 370+ miles on a NiMH battery.
With the increased energy density of LiON batteries that increases to 400 miles and 600 miles respectively. With Li-S batteries that would further increase to 800 and 1200 miles, though I would suspect they would limit the range to 400 miles and reduce the size of the battery in proportion.
Deleted
Yup. Pages 68-73 of the May 2004 issue. The excerpt/teaser for the article is on their website here. It is actually an article on hydrogen cars, but electricity is mentioned. It doesn't discuss battery-electric cars, but does discuss hydrogen fuel cells powered by hydrogen from electrolysis. One illustration in the article compares the component and total efficiencies for 11 different possible drivetrain/fuel combos. This chart shows gasoline internal comustion engine efficiency as[*]:
Fuel Chain Efficiency = 80%
Vehicle Efficiency = 18%
Total Efficiency = 14.4%
If hydrogen comes from grid electricity[**], This same chart shows hydrogen fuel cell efficiency as:
Fuel Chain Efficiency = 22%
Vehicle Efficiency = 38%
Total Efficiency = 8.4%%
It also has a chart for emmissions. That chart says that total emmissions (fuel chain + vehical) greenouse gas emmissions for a gasoline ICE are around 380 grams/mile[+]. It says total emmissions of greenhouse gasses for a grid electric -> hydrogen fuel cell car are 430 grams/mile.
The electrolysis process should not produce greenhouse gasses, so those figures should be a reasonable reflection of electric power generation for electric vehicles, too.
Of course, electric powerplants operate below peak capacity most of the time. Electric vehical advocates point to the negligible amount of energy required by the addition of a couple hundred battery chargers to the grid of a major city.
--
* - this chart has efficiency on the Y axis, with 100% at the top, and 0% at the bottom. The only marks on the Y axis are for 20%, 40%, 60%, and 80%. That makes exact numbers difficult to obtain; i.e. these are best guesses based on the a bar graph without nicely marked units. There is no question that the graph shows gasoline ICEs as being more efficient than grid electric->hydrogen fuel cells
** - This assumes the hydrogen source is electricity from a local grid. Most local grids in the USA are powered by fossil fuel.
+ - don't blame me. I'm not the moron who chose to mix metric and english units of measurment.
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
I think that goes for OS's too
It was probably this article on pages 68-73 of the May 2004 issue of scientific american. It is actually an article on hydrogen cars and their infrastructure problems. Nice article, with better comparisons than most, but the hydrogen-specific complaints are already well known.
The propane infrastructure is a whole different topic. Propane can currently be purchased lots of places, and Propane cars are already common. There are even a few propane dragsters (10:34 sec 1/4 mile @ 127.10mph)
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
I think that goes for OS's too
(yes, that is much more expensive.) The new battery pack gives them more range; they drove from LA to Las Vegas on a single charge, and still had an estimated 40 miles of range left. They also say:
None of that changes your points, though. The tzero is a light little two seater designed to be a fun sports car. It is not a subaru station wagon.
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
I think that goes for OS's too
They are right. Not only has the post office used electric vehicles in the past, one of those Grumman-Olson electric postal vans has been been converted into a dragster. The discovery channel did a show ("SuckAmps") about the build.
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
I think that goes for OS's too
I was watching Motorweek the other day on PBS, and they were running a segment on hybrids. Several companies were designing heavy trucks (think diesel platforms for garbage trucks and buses) that used high and low pressure hydraulic tanks to store and then release energy generated by the engine during operation. This enables the truck to avoid idling the engine at stops (similar to an electric hybrid) and allows the truck to get up to speed (hydraulic launch assist) based on the hydraulic pump (which is coupled to the driveshaft, similar to a motor) before kicking in the diesel engine. When operating or braking, fluid stored in the low pressure tank is pumped back into the high pressure tank (each tank is filled with nitrogen gas - that's what is being compressed to store energy.) When starting up from a stop or accelerating, the gas is used to shunt hydraulic fluid through the pump to spin the driveshaft.
Hydraulic hybrids.
This post was about Canada, which has hydro and reliable nukes.
There is nothing wrong with yr Internet. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling the transmission - NSA
Seems like Honda figured out how to do it:
A rt icleID=2002100843527&bhcp=1&BrowserDetected=Tr ue
http://www.hondacars.com/info/news/article.asp?
There is nothing wrong with yr Internet. Do not attempt to adjust the picture. We are controlling the transmission - NSA