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Evaluating Open Source

CowboyRobot writes "Jordan Hubbard cofounded FreeBSD and now oversees the Darwin implementation of BSD for Apple. He describes open source as 'finally being openly acknowledged as a commercial engineering force-multiplier and important option for avoiding significant software development costs.' And thus, companies need to know how to evaluate open source engineering as an option for them. In a new article titled Open Source to the Core, Hubbard goes through a typical open source adoption process."

37 of 110 comments (clear)

  1. avoiding significant development costs.. by js3 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    at the expense of?

    --
    did you forget to take your meds?
    1. Re:avoiding significant development costs.. by nial-in-a-box · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Doesn't necessarily have to be at the expense of anything. Mainly, though, it can lead to more complicated development, especially during a transition period. Also, with the change in how technical support is handled, more problems can arise at that point. Basically, the best thing to do is check everything out as much as you can and be very prepared. A wide margin of error, especially in the time department, can lead to a great deal of success when making a potentially massive transition.

      --
      I am feeling fat and sassy
  2. Just in case the server crashes and burns... by mirror_dude · · Score: 4, Informative

    Just in case the server crashes and burns (like they usually do),I have put up a mirror.
    The mirror of http://acmqueue.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=sh owpage&pid=151 is at http://mirrorit.demonmoo.com/r_7/acmqueue.com/modu les.php%3fname=Content&amp%3bpa=showpage&amp%3bpid =151

    --
    Note to Mods: When I post mirrors, it's a best guess. I don't know for certain whether or not the site will go down!
  3. Interesting Article by ikkonoishi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It points out a number of stumbling blocks that you might get into and walks you through them.

    It has a few paragraphs on dealing with the various liscenses, and on the effort you should put into giving back to the open source community if you use some of the code.

    1. Re:Interesting Article by nial-in-a-box · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That is key, as I don't think corporations are even considering that aspect of open source software. Considering that, in all fairness, efforts should be made to contribute back to the community when using open source software, I think that the alleged TCO benefits begin shrinking drastically. I hope this has been mentioned somewhere, since it needs to be a reality. I don't want to see anything hindering the overall adoption of open source, but I also don't want to see the open source community being abused more than it already is now.

      --
      I am feeling fat and sassy
    2. Re:Interesting Article by chris_mahan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actualy it's okay if they don't contribute code patches. I'd rather they pay for the salaries of programmers who are the ones who will release the patches on their own dime.

      Companies, generally, do not "get" the organic process of improving open-source software.

      --

      "Piter, too, is dead."

  4. open source engineering = portability by lawngnome · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I can see this as a great opportunity to both mainstream developemnt and provide more options. Id software being able to more between mac/windows/linux on their releases is a good example of this.

  5. Re:So will we see Darwin open sourced? by BWJones · · Score: 3, Informative

    Modded as interesting? You do know that Darwin is already open sourced.....Don't you?

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  6. Re:So will we see Darwin open sourced? by fmorgan · · Score: 5, Informative

    Darwin is open sourced. You can download it from

    http://developer.apple.com/darwin/projects/darwi n/

    Aqua is NOT.

    And at opendarwin you can find a x86 port of darwin.

  7. Re:So will we see Darwin open sourced? by nial-in-a-box · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Maybe a little better than seeing all of Microsoft's code open sourced, but don't count on seeing any of Apple's proprietary code. Sure, if we could see the source for everything, right now, we could accomplish awesome things. But what is the incentive for most any software company to release their code when it is almost solely the act of keeping it proprietary that generates their income? If you want to see real changes in commercial software in regards to general openness, then we need to see real changes in the global and local economic model.

    --
    I am feeling fat and sassy
  8. But why by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting


    Why would you want to cut down soft.dev. costs if an engineer in India costs $400/month?

    1. Re:But why by k4_pacific · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because fewer Indians cost less than more Indians. Duh.

      --
      Unknown host pong.
  9. Open source marketing. by demonic-halo · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The sad thing about open source is there isn't really any marketing control.

    Linux hasn't really taken off into mainstream unti IBM started throwing it's weight and marketing Linux.

    If someone could figure out a open source way of marketing and marketing studies to fuel product development, then we'll see a new era.

    1. Re:Open source marketing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Christina Aguillera dancing in a see through pink blouse with the tropical paradise on the background should fuel the sales of new kernel, me think.

    2. Re:Open source marketing. by flossie · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Linux hasn't really taken off into mainstream unti IBM started throwing it's weight and marketing Linux.

      IBM started throwing its weight behind Linux because it was taking off.

    3. Re:Open source marketing. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Correct. Linux was already mainstream on the server front before IBM announced its "Billion Dollar backing" of linux in Dec 2000. I will give IBM big credit though for their very public backing Linux. There is no doubt in my mind that they have played a big part in spreading the gospel. I can't however give them credit for brining Linux to the masses. That's just not right.

  10. Sound Planning For ANY Migration by Eberlin · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "investigation, evaluation, adoption, and communication"

    Isn't this true for just about every migration plans?

    Investigate -- find out if this will do what you want it to do.

    Evaluate -- dig deeper into the idea. Get a better feasibility study with numbers and monetary figures. Make cool looking presentations to the higher-ups that sign the checks.

    Adoption -- this is where you SLOWLY incorporate the new with the old. Make sure everything is working well. People may have to do double-duty to work with both systems just so they can give it their blessing (that it all works properly). This is where you train a "core" group of support folks from each department so they burden you less.

    Communication -- this really should be earlier on, before adoption. Find people who run this stuff already and communicate whether it may work for you too. See if you can get a "we'll help you through it" before you even adopt.

    Again, this isn't anything strictly for Open Source. I'm sure there are nuances and cultures, yadda yadda yadda...but a good plan of action helps minimize risk with ANY project.

  11. a few extra notes from someone using OSS by iguana · · Score: 5, Informative

    - Be prepared to become an expert on everything. If you have problems with component X, if no one in the community is interested in fixing it or if you're under time pressure, you'll have to fix it yourself. Also known as the "if you don't have a kernel expert on staff, you will eventually" rule.

    - Almost nothing works the first time. OSS engenders infinite flexibility which eventually reaches infinite permutations. The plethora of configuration options to a large project's source can be very daunting. Everything interlocks with everything else for maximum flexibility which means more work up front to understand how the pieces fit together.

    - Forget about binary portability. OSS is designed to support source code across platforms in the same way Windows is designed to support binary backwards compatilbity.

    - Expect complexity and plan for it. OSS supports every platform under the sun which breeds extra complexity.

    - Have lots and lots of patience.

    Just my two cents from having developed embedded x86 and ARM Linux for the last two years.

    1. Re:a few extra notes from someone using OSS by iguana · · Score: 4, Informative

      Lest I seem to negative up there, I should also mention that in using OSS you will learn more than you expect. It's a lot of fun to be able to mess around in USB device drivers one week then dig into a linker bug the next week. With time, patience, and persistence, you'll be able to understand how all the stuff actually works ("oh, that's how a shared library is loaded from disk into memory"). It's the keys to the kingdom!

    2. Re:a few extra notes from someone using OSS by chris_mahan · · Score: 4, Funny

      It helps to attract real programming talent too:

      Shop A: Pays $65K for a VB and ASP .NET developer to work on Win 2003 and MSSQL/IIS.

      Shop B: Pays $65K for Python developer to work on Debian with PostgreSQL/Apache.

      Who do you think will get the better programmer?

      --

      "Piter, too, is dead."

    3. Re:a few extra notes from someone using OSS by iguana · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I agree. In my experience over the last several years, I've found people who use OSS projects tend to be more self-starters, curious, and technically adept.

      I joke that you learn a lot with Linux, et al, because you *have* to. Show me someone who is running Linux (or BSD) at home and I'll show you someone who knows and likes computers.

    4. Re:a few extra notes from someone using OSS by reverendslappy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      While I would say "B", as I'm assuming you would, I don't know that you're right for the reasons you might think you are.

      While I'd agree that a Python/Debian/Postgre/Apache developer is probably more adept, I don't think it has to do with the language. It has to do with the fact that (generally speaking, of course) OSS people are more heavily self-taught amateurs-turned-pros. To me, that displays a passion for the craft that others might not have (though to be fair, many MS-based developers are self-taught too, albeit on systems that are much less in-your-face from a learning perspective... OSS developers have to spend a fair bit time learning the systems first, before the development skills, while MS'ers don't necessarily). Add to that my opinion that autodidacts have skills that are generally more flexible and adaptive, and "B" is definitely preferable.

      But the differentiator is not the language. In reality, while B is better than A, a developer that can excel at both A and B is better than either an A or B; a truly gifted develeper isn't limited by language. Overall, B is more desirable to me because I know a B has likely invested more time and passion in learning and honing their skills, not because they know <insert language here>.

    5. Re:a few extra notes from someone using OSS by natmsincome.com · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The language doesn't make you a good programer but the environment does make a difference.

      It's much easier to be a bad programer and get away with it in a good environment. While I wouldn't call Python, Debian and PostgreSQL/Apache a bad environment. If you are able to set it up and program in that environment it means you have to have a certain level of skill. On the other hand to setup ASP.NET, Win 2003 and MSSQL/IIS doesn't require anywhere near as much skill. That doesn't mean that the program isn't as good but it does mean the skill range is larger.

      Eg. If you compare someone who can just do VB with someone who can do C++ and VB you'll find that the C++ person will often be better. Why? Because C++ is harder than VB which means more people can program VB which means your more likely to find someone that's not as good if you look for VB.

      That's why there are alot of Crap VB programs around which is good. Lots of people learning and it's easy to throw a program to gether but it's also bad lots of people that can throw a program together think their good. Compare that with C where it's alot harder to throw a program together an while some of them as still bad most of them a better than the VB ones because it's harder so you have to be better to get it to work. Drop the C programer back to VB and they can still write good code just faster.

    6. Re:a few extra notes from someone using OSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      It's a lot of fun to be able to mess around in USB device drivers one week then dig into a linker bug the next week

      Great for you. Unfortunately, it's a real pain in the ass to have to mess around all over the supposedly working code. And I have my own problems to deal with, more than full time. That's my job. I don't have extra time to deal with a bunch of buggy messes left by others for the "fun" of doing extra work before a deadline.

      oh, that's how a shared library is loaded from disk into memory

      Again, great -- for college kids learning how computers work.

      Your post all all about how great Linux is for a hobby, an Erector set for an OS. The article is about how great it's supposed to be for serious development. You don't build bridges with Erector set parts. You're not helping the cause, here.

    7. Re:a few extra notes from someone using OSS by KevinDumpsCore · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Shop A: Pays $65K for a VB and ASP .NET developer to work on Win 2003 and MSSQL/IIS.
      >Shop B: Pays $65K for Python developer to work on Debian with PostgreSQL/Apache.

      >Who do you think will get the better programmer?

      IMHO, it's anyone's guess... You've neglected a multitude of other variables: understanding the business, usability, clear design, ability to get things done, etc.

  12. not true by zogger · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Slashdot is fine for learning new stuff. A lot of people find interesting articles to post here, then even more comment on them, and every thread always has even more interesting links. It's a force multiplier that way, and you get a lot of great anecdotals, too. Yes, you might have to wade through the trolls, and along the way you might get sidetracked, or enjoy some joking, etc, but all in all it's pretty good. That's why it's popular, it fills a niche and does it well. And it's pretty well customisable, you get the content you want, and you can set your threshold where you want. Price is right, too.

  13. Re:Short Shrift to Linux... by Billy+the+Mountain · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The reference to Slashdot was suprising to me being referenced in the ACM without even a footnote because not everyone in IT knows about Slashdot, especially your average .NET programmer:

    Marketing. First and foremost, your marketing people will (or should) want to have a prepared message about your use of open source, even if it's only to respond to any questions that may come up. Make sure that they also know enough to make correct assertions about it, or you may find yourself paying the price on Slashdot when one of them makes an embarrassing public gaffe about who provided the technology or attributes it to someone else.

    BTM

    --
    That was the turning point of my life--I went from negative zero to positive zero.
  14. The Problem With Darwin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I like the idea of Darwin, a free Unix-like OS specifically designed to work well on a Macintosh, and had hoped that it would be developed as a real and useful BSD but from what I can see, it is simply the core of Mac OS X and no one seems to be interested in making it useful OS on its own right.

    Maybe things have changed since the last time I tried Darwin but there are a few problems with it, such as:

    1. No partitioning/formatting options during install

    2. No way to setup Airport

    3. No way to add users/groups without knowing arcane NetInfo commands

    4. Some commands do not make use of the full console dimensions; probably because no one wants to fix Termcap.

    5. No security announcements lists or patches.

    6. No binary releases have being generated since 7.0.1.

    Furthermore, I have seen people who wanted to use Darwin as a server (on a remote Macintosh) told to use Mac OS X Server instead. It seems to me that this is the wrong attitude, that people should actually want Darwin to be useful as a server and and a Unix workstation. It is a shame.

    1. Re:The Problem With Darwin by ndpatel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      i think the deal is that darwin and os x are kept in sync, and so adding the things you want to darwin (making it a 'real and useful' bsd) would also have to get added into os x, bloating it unecessarily. (yes i know. genie effect. it's all bloat anyway :))

      i mean, why duplicate an airport driver in the core system when the actual product has a really good one? why create an intuitive user/group system when the actual product is really damn good at managing them? i think the point of darwin is to maintain a really slick foundation for an operating system, not an OS all its own.

      --
      london is drowning and i live by river
    2. Re:The Problem With Darwin by Brandybuck · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Actually, Darwin is "an OS all its own". Don't fall into the Microsoft trap and make your definition of OS too broad. Darwin might not be a complete graphical workstation environment for non-technical users, but it certainly is a complete operating system.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    3. Re:The Problem With Darwin by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Maybe I feel Darwin should useful on its own.

      You're saying that without Airport support it's not useful? That's a rather narrow definition of useful.

  15. Nothing new about open source by weekendwarrior1980 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Back in 60s and 70s, the era of huge collaboration that gaves us UNIX, Internet etc, everything was open sourced. Of course, the targeted audience who participated tended to be those in academia (outside the corporations that developed them). Guess what? Open source softwares was then and there and yes, it was viable enough to be an academic experiment and commercial at the same time. I think the only thing different now is that we have the same revolution with a wider audience and a sensibility that will sustain open source movement for a long time to come.

    1. Re:Nothing new about open source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The reason it was free was because nobody thought of software as a business. IBM certainly didnt care about software, except as a way to sell hardware. For the better or worse, a software industry was born, and if big companies like IBM keep giving away software for free to sell the hardware, a lot of the software companies and those who make a living developing software will have to go away... our high tech economy in the past few years is living proof of this.

  16. A slight problem in this logic by Fullmetal+Edward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Alright lads, we're going to get people to develope this for us, open source style... then we're going to charge for it. We'll make millions for pretty much free.

    Sounds like that to me... isn't the point of open source to "Give a little back to recieve alot". A "One for all, all for one" approach to software?

    --
    --- [Insert intresting Sig here]
  17. Suprise! by Proteus · · Score: 5, Insightful
    In a five page article on open source, he mentions Linux 3 times -- once wrt KDE, once wrt Gnome, and once wrt Slashdot. That's it.

    Maybe because:

    • Linux is already well-known
    • Linux was /not/ the first open-source product
    • There's a lot more to OSS than Linux
    --
    We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
  18. Open Source: Best damn thing for the economy by stealth.c · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It lowers the barrier of entry. Small local businesses can thrive in an environment like this, and anyone is eligible to obtain the necessary knowhow and skill to get a job or start a business in the field.

    I have pretty much one criterion in my mind regarding economics in the USA. If it ups the barrier of entry: automatically bad. It divides the haves and have-nots into perpetually irreconcilable camps. If it lowers the barrier of entry, any perceived "loss" or "recession" is due to the fatcats getting outdone by nimble startups or their own customers. In other words: automatically good.

    Lowering the barrier diminishes corporate power; diminished corporate power means diminished corporate influence on government; and that means more power to the REAL PEOPLE.

  19. Free marketing for free software by jesterzog · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't think that's such a sad thing. It'll be actively marketed in one way or another as long as someone sees a way to make money from it. IBM has found such a way (or believes that it has), but even if it stops then linux and open source will still be there for me to use --- complete with all of the enhancements that IBM provided.

    I realise that it's not exactly what you're referring to, but in the past week or so I've been hearing Microsoft commercials on the morning radio, definitely peak time on high rating stations, that directly target open source software.

    I don't recall the exact wording but the commercials definitely say something along the lines of "you may think there are free software alternatives, but there are really hidden costs." This is where I am locally (New Zealand), but I understand that Microsoft has been taking similar approaches in other places.

    From the tone of the commercials, I honestly can't see how Microsoft could be doing anything but shooting itself in the foot with this type of campaign. One of the main barriers to open source is that people haven't heard of it, and another is that people don't see it as something that's worth seriously trying to use. It's a credit for open source whenever anyone hears that Microsoft is afraid of it, because that implies that lots of other people actually are using it and successfully.